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View Full Version : If anyone complains about the muzzle flash in FB...



XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 11:00 AM
Just show them THIS........

http://au.f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/peterm100000/vwp?.dir=/Sturmovik&.dnm=Sturmovik1943.jpg&.view=t

(If the above does not work, try this and then select the IL2 folder:

http://au.f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/peterm100000

I found this photo of an IL2 in a Time Life Book titled "The Soviet Air Force." Page 147.

The caption reads:

'With flames shooting from the muzzles of its twin 37mm cannon, an Il2 shturmovik roars in to hammer German positions during the Battle of Kurk in July 1943."

I think that just aboutt settles the matter!

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 11:00 AM
Just show them THIS........

http://au.f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/peterm100000/vwp?.dir=/Sturmovik&.dnm=Sturmovik1943.jpg&.view=t

(If the above does not work, try this and then select the IL2 folder:

http://au.f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/peterm100000

I found this photo of an IL2 in a Time Life Book titled "The Soviet Air Force." Page 147.

The caption reads:

'With flames shooting from the muzzles of its twin 37mm cannon, an Il2 shturmovik roars in to hammer German positions during the Battle of Kurk in July 1943."

I think that just aboutt settles the matter!

fluke39
10-16-2003, 11:05 AM
yes but that is 37mm cannons - and one photo at that - i have seen many photos of various different weapons firing and the muzzle flashes are generally nowhere near as much as they are in FB.

<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/flukelogo.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 11:07 AM
Film will always see things the human eye never will. So no it does not end the argument

No1RAAF_Pourshot
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/CA-15%20Kangaroo.jpg

No1_RAAF

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 11:08 AM
>>>I think that just aboutt settles the matter!<<<

Not really. The ambient light available and the speed of the film cause what you see in photos not to be what your eye would see under the exact same conditions.


The gun flashes presented in daylight are greatly over done in Il2/FB which can be confirmed by anyone who has actually seen a medium caliber cannon fire in real life.
They are more suitable to late dusk or night time

Zeke

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 11:10 AM
As a matter of fact I just read one pilots account of fireing the 8 .303's on his hurricane at nite he was much more concerned about the exuast glare ,the guns were no problem at all.

No1RAAF_Pourshot
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/CA-15%20Kangaroo.jpg

No1_RAAF

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 11:13 AM
Not so fast /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I've fired several different caliber weapons ranging from
7.62 to 120 mm.

I never see any flash. (except night time and it still isnt big issue). It comes goes away so fast that you cannot see it. Looking at pictures or watching telly is something different. Sorry.


During day time you should not see the flash or something is terribly wrong /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Just imho

ps. they cannot model the smell of coordite so they gave us big muzzle flash /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 11:20 AM
True, but the point is il2 is also a game that must appeal to the general public and it is fun to see all those lights flashing.. kind of a flying Doom /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

E.

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 11:22 AM
Oh come on guys. "There none so blind as those who will not see!" Why can't you trust the evidence of your own eyes rather than a theory based mere personal belief and prejudice. You remind me of the physicist who set out to prove that bees can't fly because of their aerodynamic properties.........

I have been a photographer for 20 years and one thing I have learned - one of these posts is partly right, the camera does not record what they eye sees.But I also know this - the eyes are much MORE sensitive, especially compared with the comparatively slow poor quality emulsions available 60 years ago.So this shot is unlikely to be recording something that is invisible to humans.

I should mention that I also recently bought a copy of a DVD series called "Clash of Wings" - from a TV doco series of the same name . In part 1 "Hitlers Biggest Gamble: The Russian Front" guess what -original film of sturmoviks firing their cannon and showing exactly the same effect as that in my post. I tried taking a screenshot to post that as well but the normal screenshot utility does nto work when playing DVDs.

Long story short - this effect IS real. Maybe not always and under all conditions I grant you but it here it is in black and white. As they say in the classics - Incredible but its a fact!

Tully__
10-16-2003, 11:51 AM
peterm1 wrote:
- ....But I also know this - the eyes are much MORE
- sensitive, especially compared with the
- comparatively slow poor quality emulsions available
- 60 years ago.So this shot is unlikely to be
- recording something that is invisible to humans.


It must be remembered that a lot of old (and new) black & white film stock is fairly sensitive in the short IR spectrum. A light source that is a dull yellow or orange to human eyes but very hot will show as bright white on some black & white film.

The same is true of many modern "low light" ccd TV cameras, particularly the B&W security variety.

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Salut
Tully


Message Edited on 10/16/0308:52PM by Tully__

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 12:08 PM
well i dont know what to tell you but i have personaly fired at least 8-10000 round of .50 cal m2 ammo while firing i was only about 1 meter from the muzzel..during the day i swear to you you will in no way be blinded by the flash. in fact youll not even see it just a little smoke,and dust not like is shown or is in the sim. at night,its a little different but not like they show in movies at all the fact remains i did it i saw it i instructed it, you cant tell me a .50 cal has that kind of flash..note iv also been directly behind the the auto cannon of the m2/m3 bradley 25mm. chaingun and its not like that either.. now i know your showing a 37 mm but i also think your trying to prove all flashes are correct

U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 12:14 PM
24 years in the military an I agree totally! This effect is terribly overdone in FB and BW film does not capture it the same way the eye does.

All the best, Don

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 12:21 PM
If there isnt much flash from a gun muzzle, why is there such thing as a flash suppressor?

http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Flashsuppressor.html

Cool picture of a bullet leaving a barrel on that site...

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 12:23 PM
flash suppressor? is for night firing

U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 12:41 PM
I think all of you except the original poster wants to keep complaining about IL-2 flash. A picture is worth a 1000 words, don't matter if it is black and white film. Now, some photo buff can come in dispute that with some technical infrared bull and some lighting and speed and quality of the film bull used to take that picture. Oh well, keep complaining. Seems to make you all happy. S!

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 12:46 PM
OM has said that the muzzle flashes are modelled as seen at night.

Why he did this for a sim/game that will be flown at least 95% during daylight, you will have to ask OM.


http://www.thundercycle.com/photos/dropdead2.gif



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 12:47 PM
I think I'll go with the guys who have actually fired the guns on this one. They should know......if tenmike has fired 10,000 rounds of 50 cal and says there is negligable muzzle flash then I will believe this.


<center><img src= "http://homepage.ntlworld.com/n.bulger/Emil_Bug.jpg">

AKA JG5_Emil

"I wish we all had the courage to confine our defence to three simple words....LICK MY A*S!" Herman Goering

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 12:59 PM
You missed the point.

Its not about the size of the flash. That might be correct - doesnt matter. Its the duration of flash that creates the problem in FB.

In RL its a real flash - lasting maybe some milliseconds. It comes and goes so fast that you cannot see it. Eventhough you would have high ROF.

The problem in FB is the duration of flash which seems to be too long. A medium duration of gun muzzle flash is around 0.002 second. In FB - well i havent figured it out but you should basically have more trouble of what your nose picks than what your eyes see.

But hey... its just a game and sometimes i like the guns blazing cowboy style - but its not like in rl http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Some reading:

http://www.cinematography.net/gun.htm

http://users.erols.com/igoddard/flirloc1.htm

fluke39
10-16-2003, 01:09 PM
peterm1 wrote:
- Oh come on guys. "There none so blind as those who
- will not see!" Why can't you trust the evidence of
- your own eyes rather than a theory based mere
- personal belief and prejudice.

striker wrote:

I think all of you except the original poster wants to keep complaining about IL-2 flash.


just for the record i generally don't complain about FB, and this is this first time i have posted anything on this forum about muzzle flash.

after reading what some people said about it being to big i started to notice in game that it did seem really overdone - now i haven't fired a 20mm cannon or any other gun for that matter - but from when i compare what i have seen of guns fired on tv (numerous wars etc ) and when i see a plane in the distance in FB and the muzzle flash is almost the size of the plane - it definitely seems like it is too big to be real - especially in daylight.

combined with those who've fired guns and what milomorai mentions above it makes a pretty convincing argument to me. - not that i want to complain about things - i just thought i'd voice my view as the original post did have some great bait in it in the form of "i think that about settles it then"


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

edited to correct appalling spelling of "gresazt" to "great"

<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/flukelogo.jpg>


Message Edited on 10/16/0301:18PM by fluke39

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 01:15 PM
I have also fired the Mark 2 at Ft. Hood, Texas and didnt see any noticable muzzle flash during the day. At night it IS a little more pronounced, but not like it is here in the game. I have also seen the A-10 fire it's big 30 mm gun and although it does puff out some smoke, the flash is not that consuming. It's obvious that the game does this for effect, and to me it's not a huge deal except when the flash creates stutters (Like in the Me-262)

And what I dont think some of you are getting is the simple fact that the muzzle flash would not be seen behind the cockpit, and on the instrument clusters as it is depicted now. Again I think it was done for effect. I just wish you could toggle it on/off like lense flare.



http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/Fehler.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 01:19 PM
Sounds like a case for a new option - in the conf.ini file:

Gunflash=0 # no flash (day or night)
Gunflash=1 # flash at dusk / night only
Gunflash=2 # flash - day and night (default - as is)




<div align="center">

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I've given up correcting my own spelling
Unless I've corrected it here <MAP NAME="paint_sig_003"><AREA SHAPE="rect" COORDS="0,159,199,199" HREF="http://www.il2airracing.com" TARGET="_blank" alt="Air Racing" title="Air Racing"><AREA SHAPE="rect" COORDS="0,0,199,159" HREF="http://www.robert-stuart.me.uk/" title="Painter's home page" alt="Painter's home page"><AREA SHAPE="rect" COORDS="199,0,399,199" HREF="http://www.robert-stuart.me.uk/il2/index.html" TARGET="_blank" alt="Painter's IL2 Pages" title="Painter's IL2 Pages">
</MAP></div>

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 01:32 PM
peterm1 wrote:
- Oh come on guys. "There none so blind as those who
- will not see!" Why can't you trust the evidence of
- your own eyes rather than a theory based mere
- personal belief and prejudice


Mate are you going to take your own advise and listen to the many expert people here that do fire heavy weapons.

I have done much pro kangaroo shooting and most of that at nite and have never given flash a second thought.



No1RAAF_Pourshot
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/CA-15%20Kangaroo.jpg

No1_RAAF

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 02:00 PM
If the eye cant't see the flash so what? Who says you are seeing with your own eyes when flying in IL-2? Perhaps you are looking through a film camera /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 02:08 PM
I have fired and seen firing a few WWII weapons. Not the calibers in the game, but I don't think caliber matters that much. I have not seen any flashing from them, and that under a rather dim incandescent bulbs light. But the ammo, being fit for those weapons, was not old. Modern manufacturing. That means the powder is not that manufactured 60 years ago, and that matters. I have fired 1860's weapons with old style powder and it DOES make a huge flash. Surely the quality of the powder is what accounts for it though I don't know to what extend or what the WWII powder was like.

And I don't mind a little bit what the muzzle flash is like in the game. It's good enough for me. There are more important realism issues than that.

Kuikueg

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 02:19 PM
We used mostly wartime reserves (1944) for mortar practise.
Just the way of making room for new stuff. We also used modern ammunition - no difference in flash, noise etc.

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 02:27 PM
MIG16 wrote:
- If the eye cant't see the flash so what? Who says
- you are seeing with your own eyes when flying in
- IL-2? Perhaps you are looking through a film camera
- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
-

LOL! Now that's a different way of looking at things! I was thinking, perhaps that car wreck I narrowly avoided really happened and perhaps Im in a deep coma and all this is a part of my imagination... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/Fehler.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 02:29 PM
Have you fired a gun? I've fired the MG42, and seen videos of the MG131 and MG151 being fired. All showed no visible flash in daylight. There was some smoke near the barrel and a slight flash on prolonged bursts but no "huge flames" shooting from the barrel. Even the M2 Browning doesn't produce fireballs (and its even more powerful than the MG131).

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 05:00 PM
peterm1

>>>Why can't you trust the evidence of your own eyes rather than a theory based mere personal belief and prejudice<<<

That's exactly what I am doing. As an armored crewman I have fired many 125mm rounds and state with out any doubt that the muzzle flash in FB is total BS designed to give the kiddies a thrill. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Zeke

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 05:16 PM
Watch Wings of the Red Star:Il-2 Sturmovik on Dwings next time it comes on. There is video of 3 or 4 Il-2-3 Series. I think, and they are firing their cannon and machine guns, and it looks a helluva a lot like FB, whish I had a film clip though

<center>________________________</center>

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"The day is mine!"

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 05:19 PM
CowboyTodd41 wrote:
- Watch Wings of the Red Star:Il-2 Sturmovik on Dwings
- next time it comes on. There is video of 3 or 4
- Il-2-3 Series. I think, and they are firing their
- cannon and machine guns, and it looks a helluva a
- lot like FB, whish I had a film clip though
-
-

Yes and if you notice it is not a bright sunny day. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


http://www.thundercycle.com/photos/dropdead2.gif



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 05:24 PM
Even if 37mm cannon fire DOES make a large, sustained flash, the real issue is that machine guns mounted in the cowling on the top of the engine shouldn't blind you and obscure your target. The wing mounted guns can flame away, for all I care, but "Cockpit ON" firing is out of control.

Can anybody model some empty tomato soup cans stuffed with steel wool? Place them on the ends of the gun barrels and the annoying flash would be gone!

<center> <img src=http://us.f1f.yahoofs.com/users/1563a400/bc/My+Photos/f-80web+3.jpg?bfuAEZ_AXkmCH7OZ> </center>

<center> "..And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
the high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of Howdy Doody."</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 05:28 PM
Fb110 night fighter pilots hated the Mk~108 cos the muzzle flash would blind them....at night.

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 08:14 PM
Striker-PBNA wrote:
- I think all of you except the original poster wants
- to keep complaining about IL-2 flash. A picture is
- worth a 1000 words, don't matter if it is black and
- white film. Now, some photo buff can come in dispute
- that with some technical infrared bull and some
- lighting and speed and quality of the film bull used
- to take that picture. Oh well, keep complaining.
- Seems to make you all happy. S!

I swear this must be your only method of interaction on this forum. To come on and whine about what you percieve to be whining. You did the same thing in a BoB thread. What crap you spew. "Technical infrared bull"? Please.

How about the fact that we have people on this forum who have actually fired these weapons and have seen NO FLASH! Is that somehow lost on you? Or doesn't it make any difference as long as you can come here and give us your idiotic high handed views about whining.

The flash issue is a legit complaint. Does it ruin the game? No. Would it be just a little better if they got rid of it or restricted it to low light situations? Yes. This is all people are saying. It's hardly whining.

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 08:42 PM
lilhorse wrote The flash issue is a legit complaint. Does it ruin
- the game? No. Would it be just a little better if
- they got rid of it or restricted it to low light
- situations? Yes. This is all people are saying.
- It's hardly whining..................lilhorse is right i also think from the reading that the other posters and my self are not whining at all just pointing out a flaw its no big deal but i just think it should be fixed i for one love this sim to the point its the only one i have anything to do with (along with il-2)...i have nothing but the highist regards for mr maddox , ........Kuikueg, sorry man but there is absolutely no comparison between smokeless powder and black powder( black powder was used untill about the 1890's)

U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991

Message Edited on 10/16/0312:42PM by tenmmike

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 09:48 PM
Sorry guys.

In Australia we have a grand old tradition of "taking the micky" ie having a little joke at others expense - just to watch how people react. (Aussies will know what i mean when I say "Come in Spinner") For the rest of you, its kinda like like standing on an ants nest to see the ants rush out.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Well here's the thing, I am not a black and white kinda guy. I believe life is made up of shades of grey and that there is a little bit of truth in many of the posts here. ie My original post wanted to point out that this phenomenon can happen in the right circumstances and maybe depending on which weapon is being fired. Truth is I think this effect is a little over modelled in FB - IN MOST CASES but I am willing to believe that maybe the propellant used by the Red Army in WW2 did create this.

I also think that one of these posts got it right the DURATION is much longer than in real life. I noticed this in the afore mentioned DVD I watched showing an IL@ firing its wing guns.BY the way I too haev fired many differnet weapns of many differnet calibres and know that if a very heavy charge of propellant is loaded this effect can be caused becasue unburned propellant is expelled from the muzzle where it burns in the atmosphere. So there ! Yaboo and sucks to you!

In short get a life guys stop whining about trivialities and get on with using this top sim.

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 09:58 PM
Sorry guys.

In Australia we have a grand old tradition of "taking the micky" ie having a little joke at others expense - just to watch how people react. (Aussies will know what i mean when I say "Come in Spinner") For the rest of you, its kinda like like standing on an ants nest to see the ants rush out.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Well here's the thing, I am not a black and white kinda guy. I believe life is made up of shades of grey and that there is a little bit of truth in many of the posts here. ie My original post wanted to point out that this phenomenon can happen in the right circumstances and maybe depending on which weapon is being fired. Truth is I think this effect is a little over modelled in FB - IN MOST CASES but I am willing to believe that maybe the propellant used by the Red Army in WW2 did create this.

I also think that one of these posts got it right - the DURATION is much longer than in real life. I noticed this in the afore mentioned DVD I watched showing an IL2 firing its wing guns.

By the way I too have fired many different weapons of many differnt calibres and know that if a very heavy charge of propellant is loaded this effect can be caused because unburned propellant is expelled from the muzzle where it burns in the atmosphere. So there !!! Yaboo and sucks to you! I am now taking my bat and ball and going home. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

In short get a life guys stop whining about trivialities every one and get on with using this top sim.

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 10:08 PM
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/k04000/k04549.jpg


Oleg`s insparation?

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 10:21 PM
http://www.uploadit.org/files/161003-MG-3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 10:53 PM
It all depends on when the shutter catches the flash. The best way to catch the flash accuratly is to have a long shutter time so it's sure to catch the extend of the flame. But this also makes the flash EXTREAMLY bright and thick. Basic photo knolege here guys.

Gib

No fancy quote or cool photo.... YET

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 11:10 PM
You damn Australians. Knock that crap off! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Do we have 16" guns on any of the planes? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

'I' could do with less flash. Big deal, though. Does not affect me in the least.

EDIT: Fixed my tounge smiley. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

<p align="center">http://forums.ubi.com/i/icons/Symbols/symbol-us-flag.gif </br></br><font size="1" color="white"><u>RealKill</u></font></p><font size="1" color="#4A535C">

Message Edited on 10/16/0305:10PM by RealKill

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 12:33 AM
BM357_Disciple wrote:

http://www.uploadit.org/files/161003-MG-3.jpg

And if you look more closely you will see

A. it's at nite

B. it's a long exposure and

C. It may even have recorded more than one round being fired /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Anyway like we said in the first post's film will always show more than the eye can see.



No1RAAF_Pourshot
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/CA-15%20Kangaroo.jpg

No1_RAAF

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 01:17 AM
Hi peterm1,

Where, oh where did you get your copy of 'Clash of Wings'?? I can't find it on Amazon. 'Clash of Wings' has to be about the best WWII air war documentary series ever produced. I have some of the episodes on tape, but would love to get it on disk. Thanks in advance.

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 01:59 AM
That photo has been edited you can tell by the light sources, I have alot of il2 muzzle flash photos in 7 stages of shots none look like that, i will scan them and post them in here. Also on dicovery wings today they had alot of il2s ground attack video and you can see the muzzle flashes firing they are big but not like the photo

http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/lead.txt
Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 02:05 AM
yes, the FB ones are excessive.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid79/p9141f290fa1c1c59a2dc382c77af21f3/fb1a8321.jpg


Lead Whiner for the P-47D-40, M and N and Hvars

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 02:27 AM
<imf src="http://www.digitaltrash.org/WmD/shoot/flash.jpg">

http://www.one35th.com/model/k5/K5_SS7.jpg

http://www.beldar.com/~lockwood/iowa3.jpg

Oh well... just some varying pics I found. interesting.... I wonder if ppl will think the Iowa pic looks familiar.....hehe lol

FuryFighter

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 03:20 AM
Cool pictures!

By the way, muzzle flashes in FB are overdone, let people who haven't tried firing gun of different caliber believe real life is like Hollywood-pictures and the rest of us get our appropriate flashes in FB..

rgds

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 04:30 AM
Again, I am not really concerned about the brightness of or duration of the muzzle blasts. It really means nothing to me, and wont ruin the game if it stays (For me at least). The only thing that bothers me, and I mean THE ONLY THING is that I get some frame stuttering when firing the big guns. If there were an option to limit muzzle flash, say in the config .ini file, then perhaps it would help with these stutterings. This is the only thing that makes my game stutter, so I can only assume it is caused by the flash.

Oh, and being at the back of the gun makes a big difference, even at night. (This is from firing the M2 50 cal, M60, M16, various pistols and shotguns, and the occasional slingshot... LOL) Ya just dont notice the flash.

Someone asked "Why there was a flash suppressor." On the M16, the flash break is intended to divert the flash that can be seen in front of the gun to allow a more difficult target for your enemy. It's not there to make what you see less brilliant because, ya just dont notice it when you are behind the gun. In front of the gun, you can see the flash, even in daytime. The flash break really doesnt suppress anything, it disperses the flash so you arent pin pointed as easily. This is why I always wondered why they loaded us out with 1/4 tracer ratio. ;(

In real life though, I dont lose frames per second when I fire the M16. Guess I either have enough RAM in my noggin or proper DirectX supports for my brain cells/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

My son read somewhere once that in FPS, the average human eye has a surprisingly slow frame rate. I think (But dont quote me on this) he said it was somewhere around 10-15 FPS! Seeing how the hand truly IS quicker than the eye, I bet he was right!

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/Fehler.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 05:31 AM
I Think:

the flashes are way to bright and large for the day time at least... more transparency during the day would be acceptable IMHO.

I think the oevall size needs to be scaled down... but it will never happen so I gave up hope long ago... I think they made their minds up long ago about Muzzle flashes

if anything the .303 cals are way overdone.. if you look at some of the guncam footage from the day time you wont see anything from any plane.. much less spitfires... theres also footage of cams showing the guns firing right from the barrel.. and you get indescriminant flashes every now and again... the only way to tell the guns are firing ois the vibrations and the sounds

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 05:51 AM
LilHorse wrote:

- I swear this must be your only method of interaction
- on this forum. To come on and whine about what you
- percieve to be whining. You did the same thing in a
- BoB thread. What crap you spew. "Technical
- infrared bull"? Please.
-
- How about the fact that we have people on this forum
- who have actually fired these weapons and have seen
- NO FLASH! Is that somehow lost on you? Or doesn't
- it make any difference as long as you can come here
- and give us your idiotic high handed views about
- whining.
-
- The flash issue is a legit complaint. Does it ruin
- the game? No. Would it be just a little better if
- they got rid of it or restricted it to low light
- situations? Yes. This is all people are saying.
- It's hardly whining.

It's nice to get a lilrise out of you LilHorse. LOLOLOL! Sorry, couldn't help myself. I don't know about people like you that gets their panties in a wad over a comment. I do apologize to any one that took offence to my comment. It wasn't written to offend anyone. It's just a comment on how I percieved the first responses to the original post. That's all. Is the flash a prob? I don't believe it to be, but that is my opinion. After reading this thread, I see that I am in the minority here. And that's ok with me. Freedom, isn't it wonderful?! S!

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 06:14 AM
There are many points in this discussion that are correct.

- quality of powder has been improved a lot since 1940's. Modern powders burn much more cleanly and cause less flash and smoke. With new powders:

- 12.7mm NSVT I fired created muzzle flash even on a cloudy day. Only thing was that it wasn't very easy to see, from what I could tell(went to side to see it while my mates were firing) it was about one meter long and shaped liked the ones we have in FB. This was with new ammo.

- 7.62mm MG also caused flash, but that couldn't be seen except for the night when it was pretty pronounced, even though small, maybe 30cm long. During the day it was only a mushroom shaped smoke cloud coming from the barrel.

- 125mm AT gun has a muzzle flash size of a tank, but only in the night. In day time only dust and smoke.

- But note about above all with modern ammunition.

- Many night fighters suffered from excessive muzzle flash during ops. German designers reacted by moving the armament from the nose, and nose underside, to pods underneath the plane fuselage. Good example is eg. Ju-88 development from C and R series to full blown nightfighter G series. G-1 still had two cannons in the nose, but these were quickly deleted from the later ones.


Is it realistic in FB? Probably not, but I think the size of the flash is about right as is the effect in the night. For daytime shooting I would wish some transparency.



-jippo

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 08:19 AM
it's the durration of the over modeled flash that doesn't help too. i see my lights in my home as on, not flashing at 60hz like they really are. I'm pretty sure the real guns didn't fire at the frequency that the lighting leads me to belive.

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 09:11 AM
In response to the question about "Clash of Wings," if you are an Ozzie, I found them at the ABC shop so you should be able to drop into your local and find them.

If overseas you may be able to use their web site to order (I have not at the time of writing checked)

http://www.abcshop.com.au/

good luck

Post script - just found it and it is listed - don't know if they deliver o/s but I imagine they will. Here is the link

http://search.abc.net.au/search/shopsearch.cgi?form=simple&num_ranks=10&collection=shop&summaries=off&query=clash+of+wings&meta_f=dvd&submit=Go

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 11:41 AM
This photograph ,or filmstill, says nothing. Before you take a picture you have to set the aperture and the shutterspeet to a certain lightcondition. The light is metered by a lightmeter. During the war very slow films were used, so relative slow shutterspeeds were used.
Back to that picture. At the moment the picture was taken, the light was metered at the plane, NOT AT THE GUNFLASH! So the plane was correctly metered and so photographed. The flash is extremly OVER-exposed and that way has 'bitten' out the rest of the image. It never was that big in real life.

<center>http://members.ams.chello.nl/pgkiljan/il2/jug.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 12:40 PM
easy experiment for us all to do

look outside next thunderstorm, now compare that to film/photo of a thunderstorm

you may notice at night slight flash blinding to eyes/overbright in media and defind lightning bolt

daytime slight flash to eyes/same to similar results as night with media this says that eyes are VERY different from camera lenses

what does this mean to be? squat diddly except i find it nigh impossible to track a target while firing my guns in a FW190

Konigwolf

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 04:58 PM
AND if you look more closely - you will notice that I made no comment as to whether I agreed or disagreed with it - I simply posted a night picture to show how a gun will light up at night....


pourshot wrote:
- And if you look more closely you will see
-
- A. it's at nite
-
- B. it's a long exposure and
-
- C. It may even have recorded more than one round
- being fired /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
- Anyway like we said in the first post's film will
- always show more than the eye can see.

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 05:04 PM
WTE_Konigwolf,

another experiment one can do is set off some firecrackers at night and in the day. Tell me which shows the flame of the explosion?


Was watching the "12 O'clock High" series (bad show but lots of good aerial photography) of a P-51 firing its guns. The photo a/c was positioned slightly low and just forward off the port wing. One could easily see the fuselage art through the flash (was like a heat shimmer). This flash was quite large. There was a small (guesstimite: ~6" dia) bright flash right at the muzzle that no way effected ones vision.



http://www.thundercycle.com/photos/dropdead2.gif



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 05:39 PM
Let's compare:

Il-2 37mm NS-37:
http://au.f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/peterm100000/vwp?.dir=/Sturmovik&.dnm=Sturmovik1943.jpg&.view=t

88mm AAA 8.8 @night:
http://www.luftarchiv.de/gerat/gerat.jpg


109K-4 30mm MK108:
http://mitglied.lycos.de/kubanskiloewe/3x30.jpg


P-39 37mm T-9 + .50 M2 + .30 @night:
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p39-3.jpg


Interview: http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zijwp
(IIRC that veteran LHAO when seeing those muzzle flashes in FB)

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 06:28 PM
I like the muzzle flash as is. Somehow....satisfying.

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 06:51 PM
Well that is a very large cannon, more powerful than the Mk108, plus it looks like it's getting dark outside when the photo was taken too. You can see muzzle flash from cannons at dusk ( like in the photo ) or at night, but not very well in the broad daylight. Proof that muzzle flash is overdone in FB is when you fire a .303 mg in the daylight in any of the so-equiped Hurricanes. You can see very bright flashes from the individual barrels, extending about 2 or 3 feet out. I have fired Enfield rifles and also more powerful cartidges than the .303, sometimes even tracer bullets, and I have never seen muzzle flash from the weapons. I wish my brother still had that Enfield, I'd make a film of it firing in the daylight and show it to you guys!!! This is proof of overdone muzzle flash. Anyone in these forums who has fired a .303 Enfield will know it's proof. I also once fired a .50BMG that a friend used to have, and it was a cloudy overcast day, and I remember very small, if any muzzle flash. Plus it was a short-barreled
.50 BMG, which would increase any muzzle flash. Short barreled weapons will porduce more flash that long barreled
weapons firing the same cartidge.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755