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View Full Version : Whilst the 109Z is being discussed again, anyone else notice this...



VonShlagnoff
01-09-2006, 04:41 AM
There seems to be two axis around which this aircraft rolls.

If viewed from outside the aircraft seems to roll around the centre of the middle wing and elevator, exactly where it should.

But when viewed from inside the cockpit it rolls around the centre of the gunsight/centre of the port fusselage, which I reckon is at least three feet to port beyond where it should.

Is it just me?

jimDG
01-09-2006, 05:11 AM
technically speaking one should also be redding out in a snap roll to the left.
there was a p38 X plane with a cockpit on the left boom, and a b17 X with a cockpit on the right wingtip (the idea being that noone shoots at wingtips therefore the pilot will be safe there). It didnt catch on - too many weird Gs during maneuvers in such asymetric pilot positions.
The B1 bomber BTW has a similar problem - the cockpit is too far ahead of the pitch axis center - so rotating the plane arround the pitch axis subjects the pilots to extra Gs.

VonShlagnoff
01-09-2006, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by jimDG:
technically speaking one should also be redding out in a snap roll to the left.
there was a p38 X plane with a cockpit on the left boom, and a b17 X with a cockpit on the right wingtip (the idea being that noone shoots at wingtips therefore the pilot will be safe there). It didnt catch on - too many weird Gs during maneuvers in such asymetric pilot positions.
The B1 bomber BTW has a similar problem - the cockpit is too far ahead of the pitch axis center - so rotating the plane arround the pitch axis subjects the pilots to extra Gs.

No, I meant that there seems to be a problem with the in game planes modeling/flight model, I know that both are questinable but for it to do this is just wrong. I suppose it makes aiming a bit easier but it's still not right

Dunkelgrun
01-09-2006, 11:00 AM
No, I meant that there seems to be a problem with the in game planes modeling/flight model, I know that both are questinable but for it to do this is just wrong. I suppose it makes aiming a bit easier but it's still not right


Seeing as how Maddox dreamt up the entire FM how can you say it's wrong? Maybe it really did have different internal and external properties - a bit like the TARDIS http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Not only that, if you turn the engine off you can hear frantic knocking coming from the sealed-over cockpit. Spooky eh? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Cheers!

Badsight.
01-09-2006, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by Dunkelgrun:
Seeing as how Maddox dreamt up the entire FM how can you say it's wrong? Maybe it really did have different internal and external properties - a bit like the TARDIS http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Not only that, if you turn the engine off you can hear frantic knocking coming from the sealed-over cockpit. Spooky eh? ROTFL !

Tooz_69GIAP
01-09-2006, 11:10 AM
This issue was addrssed by Oleg when he said that the 109Z rolling on the axis of the gunsight from in-cockpit was necessary due to game limitations, but the aircraft is in fact rolling on it's central axis in flight. I think.

faustnik
01-09-2006, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
This issue was addrssed by Oleg when he said that the 109Z rolling on the axis of the gunsight from in-cockpit was necessary due to game limitations, but the aircraft is in fact rolling on it's central axis in flight. I think.

Wait, Oleg is actually "addressing" issues on some fantasy UFO? What a waste of time.

AustinPowers_
01-09-2006, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:


Wait, Oleg is actually "addressing" issues on some fantasy UFO? What a waste of time.

*insert joke about P-38L Late here*

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Beat the blue guys to it.

VonShlagnoff
01-10-2006, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
This issue was addrssed by Oleg when he said that the 109Z rolling on the axis of the gunsight from in-cockpit was necessary due to game limitations, but the aircraft is in fact rolling on it's central axis in flight. I think.


Wait, Oleg is actually "addressing" issues on some fantasy UFO? What a waste of time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whats more concerning is the fact that knowing the game limitations the plane got put in anyway. Just out of interest who's idea was that?

danjama
01-10-2006, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by VonShlagnoff:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
This issue was addrssed by Oleg when he said that the 109Z rolling on the axis of the gunsight from in-cockpit was necessary due to game limitations, but the aircraft is in fact rolling on it's central axis in flight. I think.


Wait, Oleg is actually "addressing" issues on some fantasy UFO? What a waste of time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whats more concerning is the fact that knowing the game limitations the plane got put in anyway. Just out of interest who's idea was that? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

YEAH!!

LEXX_Luthor
01-10-2006, 02:17 PM
VonShlag::
But when viewed from inside the cockpit it rolls around the centre of the gunsight/centre of the port fusselage, which I reckon is at least <span class="ev_code_yellow">three feet to port</span> beyond where it should.
You are looking at the distant horizon when rolling, and the horizon is at least 20 kilometers away, which is slightly greater than the 1 meter (3 feet) between cockpit and wing center. The roll axis appears to be the same, as it should in real life. Both the 109Z wing center and the 109Z cockpit roll axes converge to the same roll axis -- like railroad tracks appear to converge in the far distance. 20 kilometers very far distance compared to 3 feet.

Most likely, Oleg did not model off center cockpit roll grafix, but even if he did, nobody here would notice the difference, not even the highest scoring flight sim Ace. If so, its a game design call I would have made as a PC combat flight sim developer. Good job on the -109Z Oleg and Team.

We combat flight simmers learned something New today, at the ubi.com!! And we learned it discussing the -109Z.

:thumps: dang it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

VonShlagnoff
01-10-2006, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
VonShlag:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But when viewed from inside the cockpit it rolls around the centre of the gunsight/centre of the port fusselage, which I reckon is at least <span class="ev_code_yellow">three feet to port</span> beyond where it should.
You are looking at the distant horizon when rolling, and the horizon is at least 20 kilometers away, which is slightly greater than the 1 meter (3 feet) between cockpit and wing center. The roll axis appears to be the same, as it should in real life. Both the 109Z wing center and the 109Z cockpit roll axes converge to the same roll axis -- like railroad tracks appear to converge in the far distance. 20 kilometers very far distance compared to 3 feet.

Most likely, Oleg did not model off center cockpit roll grafix, but even if he did, nobody here would notice the difference, not even the highest scoring flight sim Ace. If so, its a game design call I would have made as a PC combat flight sim developer. Good job on the -109Z Oleg and Team.

We combat flight simmers learned something New today, at the ubi.com!! And we learned it discussing the -109Z.

:thumps: dang it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was not looking at the horizon when I noticed it, I was on the 6 of a B29 about 100ft away.

LEXX_Luthor
01-10-2006, 02:58 PM
30 meters ... Ya right hehe!!!

3 feet is not much compared to even 100 feet. You won't notice much off-cockpit roll even at 100 feet given a 1/30 ratio. (I think the -109Z cockpit is a bit more than 3 feet from wing center though, lets say 5 feet maybe?) Lets say 1/20. That could be noticable if measured carefully in tracks.

Ace maker Tip:: Don't sit and roll while 30 meters behind the B-29 tail gun. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

LEXX_Luthor
01-10-2006, 03:45 PM
Just outside raking leaves (my day off hehe) and I tried to picture this situation. You should notice off-center roll (not off cockpit) with a 1/20 distance ratio ... or being off 5 feet from a 100 feet distant target. But that is outside the scope of this sim (-109Z high speed intercept) and it only effects one "experimental" plane in the sim. If Oleg chose not to change the game engine to allow off-center roll grafix for one plane, I would do the same thing. And, I would be Happy like a pigg in mud if this is the only grafix problem the gamers found in my sim to cry about. YaHoooza

p1ngu666
01-10-2006, 04:43 PM
what about tb3 spd combo? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

faustnik
01-10-2006, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by AustinPowers_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:


Wait, Oleg is actually "addressing" issues on some fantasy UFO? What a waste of time.

*insert joke about P-38L Late here*

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know you are joking but, different power level variants of the same a/c are the BEST use of time. They require little or no modeling and add a lot of great options for a mission builder. Here is a partial list of additions that would be very useful:


Spit IXe +25
Spit IX Merlin 61
Spit Vb +9

Mustang IV +25

P-40F

Fw190A4 1.42ata@2700rpm

Some that would require a little modeling:

P-38F
P-38H
Fw190D-11/13

LEXX_Luthor
01-10-2006, 05:25 PM
pingu has a point. I doubt the side by side seated bombers like TB3 or B-25 have off-center roll grafix modelled for the pilot's seat. Not sure.

VonShlag::
Whats more concerning is the fact that knowing the game limitations the plane got put in anyway. Just out of interest who's idea was that?
Then we want Oleg to take out all the side by side seated bomber cockpits in the sim. Another *brilliant* idea to make the sim more Realistic.

Flight simmers learned another New thing today, at the ubi.com. And we did it discussing -109Z.

:thumps: arrgghh http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Tully__
01-10-2006, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
what about tb3 spd combo? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif The I-16's under wings are doing more like a barrell roll than an aileron roll when you roll your mothrship. The view would be modelled accordingly and we all know that looks perfectly ok (or at least those of us who know how to do a barrell roll http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif