PDA

View Full Version : SWEDISH JETS!



DIRTY-MAC
12-14-2005, 07:40 AM
Im swedish myself, but just have some or little knowledge on the different swedish jets,
Do we have any of our Swedish brothers here
who knows a whole alot about these, and want to chare with us?

starting from the early ones to the late, and what performance and how they compared to the rest of the worlds fighters

film clip of Viggen:
http://www.bluesky.se/pic/qtstorlekar/qtl_24_o.gif

http://www.jfs.no/bilder/film_draken_tmb.jpg

Gripen:
http://www.bluesky.se/pic/qtstorlekar/qtl_25_o.gif

robban75
12-14-2005, 07:45 AM
Hmm, the links aren't working for me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

F19_Olli72
12-14-2005, 07:52 AM
I have some shots of Saab Lansen (together with Hawker Hunter) from rebro airshow earlier this year if anyone is interested:

http://photobucket.com/albums/v40/Olli72/Airshow/

JG53Frankyboy
12-14-2005, 07:54 AM
one is for sure:
all 7 swedish jets are SAABs http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

for such a small country its self developed jets were always superb (ok, leave out propably the J21R http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) !
they had not to fear their counterparts of the "big" nations .
SALUTE !!

DIRTY-MAC
12-14-2005, 08:33 AM
couldnt edit my post so here you go

Viggen:http://www.bluesky.se/ref_alskar.html

http://www.jfs.no/film/saab_viggen_128kbs.wmv

Jas39 Gripen
http://www.bluesky.se/ref_jas.html

DIRTY-MAC
12-14-2005, 08:38 AM
the Lancen was said to be a dream to fly and was a favourite of many swedish pilots, appearently very harmonised

F16_Neo
12-14-2005, 09:08 AM
Oh nice lil Viggen clip there!
They scrapped lots of Viggens, hope they spared a few for airshows. A great looking plane.

A great resource of jet clips here:
http://www.patricksaviation.com/

Don't miss the SK60 rocket training clip:
http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos.php?action=view&id=183

Or Austrian AF J35-Draken formation!
http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos.php?action=view&id=130

Be sure to *browse* the videos as I found the search function to be unreliable.

For propellerheads, filmed with digicam by yours truly:
Vid from Duxford, the rainy September show 2005, shaky, short and generally bad quality http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif :
http://media.putfile.com/Duxford_2005_shortX

Swedish WWII divebomber SAAB B17, short & shaky as well, nice sound from the PW Twin Wasp:
http://media.putfile.com/PICT0226

luftluuver
12-14-2005, 10:07 AM
SAAB was giving out a free book on the Gripen awhile ago.

F19Gladiator
12-15-2005, 09:38 AM
Hi,
There are books in English on the SWAF but also try this page:

http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/content.html#technology

Check under each a/c type and you will find a lot of info (Draken,Lansen, Tunnan, etc)
Also under "History" and "Technology" you will find some good stuff.
SWAF used to have a history page in English on the net but I can't find it anymore since they changed the content. Pity.

I have a lot on it, but posting all here would be like writing a whole book on the subject.

If you have a specific question I'll do my best to answer, pending time available...

Main page to the link above:
http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

F19Gladiator
12-15-2005, 09:52 AM
....and here:
http://www.avrosys.nu/aircraft/index.htm

....and here an article in three parts and the third part is ending with the J21R:
http://www.ungermark.se/elarm.html

....and here about "Draken":
http://fly.to/draken

....SFF home page can be interesting for you. It also has a big links file "Natkassen":
http://www.sff.n.se/

Should keep you busy for an hour or so..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

By the way, I have choosen the sites with English language or dito option.

DIRTY-MAC
12-15-2005, 08:48 PM
Tack f¶r l¤nkarna!
t¤nkte mest att det kunde va kul ¥ posta lite information om v¥ra flygplan f¶r alla andra h¤r p¥ forumen, har du n¥t schysst ¥ ber¤tta om n¥got av planen s¥ g¶r det g¤rna, tyv¤rr verkar de flesta inte orka l¤sa l¤nkarna man postar,
jag skulle g¤rna h¶ra om vad de svenska piloterna och utl¤nska hade ¥ s¤ga ¥t n¥t av planen, om n¥gon av er har n¥got s¥nt ¥ posta http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Badsight.
12-15-2005, 08:52 PM
when it was introduced the Tunnan was quite a deadly plane but was rapidly outclassed

it reminds me of the Ta-183 & remains one of my favourite Jets ever

F19Gladiator
12-16-2005, 04:20 PM
J29 Performance

The first Swedish jet aircraft designed from the origin to be powered by a jet engine was the J 29 "Tunnan" ("Barrel"), built in 661 examples, delivered between 1951 €" 56.
J 29 was contemporary with MiG-15 and F-86 Sabre and had comparable, in some aspects perhaps better performance. These three fighters were anyway the "Big Three" in the early fifties Cold War scenario, Sweden at that time having the fourth largest air force in the world after USA, USSR and Great Britain, keeping up the credibility of the declared Swedish neutrality and alliance-free foreign policy.

When discussing the performance of the J 29 it is important to put it in the right time perspective as it was a design project starting in October 1945 around the British "Goblin" engine and interestingly combining this with German wind tunnel data on swept wing profiles. Sweden got access to these data via a person in Switzerland who had copies of the German research material, and the Swedish engineers utilized this design quicker than the Americans. The resemblance to the late war Messerschmitt P 1101, later to become the Bell X-5 in the US, was probably not only coincidental.
When taking to the air in 1948 on its 25 degree swept wings it was level with the F-86 and MiG-15 in performance. Coming to units in 1951 it gained much publicity and at a time when speed records still gave status and national pride, the J 29 delivered. In 1954 a speed record was set on a circuit of 500 km with 997 km/hour (607mph)average speed.(previous record set by an F-86 wıth 950km/h or 590mph) This record stood for more than a year, to be taken by an F-86H which crashed on the finishing line, killing the pilot but granted the record!
In 1955 it was time for the S 29C reconnaissance version to beat the 1000km circuit record then kept by a British Meteor with 822 Km/h . The RSAF (Royal Swedish Air Force) decided to take the record, but with a formation of two a/c this time! This was achieved at an average speed of 900.6 km/hour (615 mph).

A unique feature of "Tunnan", but also subsequent SAAB aircraft like "Lansen", "Draken", "Viggen" and "Gripen", was the outstanding serviceability and fast turnaround on the ground. Swedish a/c are typically also today refueled, reloaded and given a pre-flight check from parking to taxing out again in 15 -20 minutes depending on the load alternatives. This gives a short exposure on the ground and high mission ratio relative to some contemporary NATO aircraft of which some took even hours to turn around between missions and this also done by specially trained technicians. The RSAF relied on conscripts with relative short training. The built-in ease of field-maintenance is one of the basic design criteria for Swedish military aircraft.
The J 29, as all subsequent Swedish a/c, was suitable for the dispersed network of road bases and satellite war emergency fields all over Sweden. This was an adaptation to the strategic threat of nuclear weapons destroying the built up infrastructure at the home base air fields.

The reliability was very high, enabling start and take off in formation, which was frequently done wıth several aircraft at a time, enabling quick formation building in the air and formation for attack or defence.

The J 29 had a high roll rate as it was very sensitive on the servo-assisted ailerons, making it very maneuverable in air combat as well as having great precision in aiming in at a target.

Rudder sensitivity was also high.

Pilots routinely pulled more than 6G (The official permitted level)with the aircraft in combat training and they sustained well, pilots not needing to go to the gym after work in those days as they developed quite well trained bodies fighting the G forces.

The J 29 never had to fight the Cold War in the air why we will never know how they would have faired against their contemporaries. An indication can be taken from the experience when a RSAF air show group visiting the UK in 1953, flying comparative tests against groups of Meteor Mk 7 and F-86 Sabre.
The Meteor curved better at the lower speed range but the J 29 easily dispatched them with their "push" tactics, utilizing speed and height advantage, they had developed against J 28 Vampires at home.
The F-86 was another matter and also flown by Korea veterans. The J 29 pilots assumed their own a/c curved better, this also under climb, because of its design. This made them press the F-86 group by successfully curving in the horizontal plane under climb, gaining in the turn. However the battle experienced F-86 drivers recognized this and switched to the vertical plane with looping, where the F-86 accelerated faster and had better maneuverability on the top of the loop due to the adjustable leading-edge slots.
This was a new experience to the J 29 pilots and they came out short.
However this experience had influence on the development on coming improved tactical use of the J 29.

How the J 29 would have faired against the MiG-15 is hard to tell as they never met to my knowledge, even if I have heard RSAF pilots telling stories about turning with Migs over the Baltic Sea and international water.

One incident was actually described by pilot Roy Fr¶jd in his book "Guldvingen". When flying "target" for several days over the Baltic Sea for a new Swedish radar station being calibrated at the island of Gotland, the J 29s were shadowed by MiG-15s. After a few days four MiGs attacked the group from a height advantage. The RSAF pilots had before hand decided what tactic to use if they were attacked. The choice fell on a "scissors" movement which was actually restricted due to the collision risk. When the MiGs came within firing distance Fr¶jd ordered "Scissors!" with the result that two MiG-15 collided when following!
The calibration flights went on without further disturbance after this incident.


The loss rate between the Sabre and MiG-15 in the Korean War might lead to assume that the J 29 stood a good chance. In the end also the pilot material and correct tactics employed for the aircraft type has a very high influence on the outcome.

We shall also remember that the RSAF tactics was to focus on shooting down as many bombers at high altitude as possible as they presented the real threat to the country and were also potential nuclear bomb carriers.
Costly turning battles with fighters were to be avoided as much as possible. Assuming that the aggressor having a substantial advantage in number of a/c it was of course important to shoot down as many as possible but also to survive and come back up again after rearming and refueling. Again the short turn around time on the ground was important.

The tactics employed against high and fast flying bomb formations was executed in similar way as the Luftwaffe "Sturmgruppen" developed in 1944. Many heavy bombers in the 1950s where still propeller aircraft giving the J 29 a speed advantage with its 1050 km/hour Vmax.

The first alternative was to attack in formation from behind. This "pursuit curve" tactic was trained over and over again in "Rote" (a two a/c group) and in much larger formations kept closely together in curving in on the target. The leader informing the group on which target he intended to fire upon, where after the others calculated which enemy a/c was "his" depending on place in the own formation. Some deflection was preferred to increase damage in the target a/c. Weapons were rockets and 20mm guns. Rocket pods reduced the top speed and were not that popular with the pilots. The formation was guide on to the target formation by a "rrjal" on the ground who was crucial for a successful interception.("rrjal" is a ground radar fighter control officer).Sometimes a complete wing could be involved in a pursuit mission why the limited radio equipment with 8 channels only became a bottleneck, enforcing short messages and discipline.

The second attack alternative was the frontal attack which had to be used if the target flew faster than M 0.8. This was much more complicated as it was difficult to get in the right position if the target was not visually confirmed early on and time given to come in position. Even small changes in directions by the target formation could lead to a failed attack. Because of the closing speed fire had to be opened from a longer distance compared to when attacking from the rear, high visibility was important for success.

In the Swedish Cold War defense plan the main risk of attack came from the east. Contemporary Soviet bomber aircraft to build tactics for in the 1950s was:
Tu-4 'Bull' a B-29 copy built in large numbers. Max 575Km/h.
Tu-20/Tu-95 'Bear' a four-engine turbo prop, 870 Km/h long range nuclear bomb carrier introduced 1956.
One can imagine that against these two an attack from behind would be tried.

Tu-16 'Badger' a twin jet with nuclear capacity and 945 Km/h max speed, from 1954.
M-4 'Bison' a four-engine jet bomber introduced 1955-56 with 900+ Km/h max speed.

These two jets had a top speed not far from the J 29 (1050Km/h) and would depending on the situation be attacked from the front, or the rear if situation and target speed permitting.

In the west still B-29/B-50 (575/640km/h) and B-36 (707km/h) was in use. The faster (933km/h) B-47 six-engine jet came into service in 1950. B-52 (925 Km/h) in 1955


RSAF pilots were highly motivated, and flew aggressively wing against wing in big combat training air battles. Big formations curving and fighting in numbers the SwAF could not put up today even if it tried to. The German and Finnish WWII system of two a/c was the basic fighting formation. The tactics employed gave more freedom to the wingman to lead an attack if sighting the target first or having a better position in the RSAF, more like the Finnish tactics than the USAF, where the wing man's only task was to protect the leader.
As faster and more modern aircraft came in use the J 29 units developed new tactics to compensate the shortcomings and to utilize the strengths of "Tunnan". The J-29 remained in front line service until 1967 when the F4 Wing retired their a/c. During this time they had time to meet the A 32 "Lansen" as from 1956, with the "sport" version J 32 all weather fighter with after burner appearing later, J 34 Hawker Hunter in 1956 and J 35 "Draken" from 1959. "Tunnan" never got all weather capacity even if a J 29R was studied in 1950, in the same spirit as the MiG-15 and F-86 radar versions.
A development stretching from subsonic to super sonic Mach 2.0 performance of course made the "Tunnan" outdated over time even if it received an afterburner to the jet engine with the J 29F version, greatly enhancing acceleration and climb, "high speed wing" and RB 24 Sidewinder IR missiles which enabled combating a/c of higher performance. It however also made good service as a ground pounding attack A 29B and reconnaissance S 29C.

Utilizing the good roll rate and turning ability they still made difficult targets for the faster and more modern jets, utilizing high angle speed. By adjusting to optimal speed, power setting, flaps and airbrake it turned well. Getting a hit on a J-34 Hunter or "Draken" was another matter and more difficult because of the big differences in power and speed.
You can perhaps compare with the experience from Vietnam where the faster and more modern US jets didn't find the smaller and slower MiG 15, 17 and 19 that easy a target!

Special escape maneuvers such as the "Maximum half roll" and the "Drill" was developed at the F16 wing which flew the J 29 1952 €" 62. The first maneuver enabled keeping the a/c at the critical Mach speed in a half roll which the following modern a/c would not dare to follow, building up too high speed themselves. The "drill" was a diving vertical roll movement making aiming virtually impossible by an attacker.
The tactics against bombers developed resembled some the Luftwaffe practiced against USAAF bomber streams in WWII. Utilizing the "push" tactic with height and speed advantage, avoiding loosing speed advantage by curving with enemy fighters, attack the bombers and firing the four 20mm cannons and/or rockets, making a "Maximum half roll" and pull away. To this could be added the "Drill" if pursued by enemy fighters.

The durability was high and many a J 29 driver told stories about how many G they pulled. The record, by a surviving pilot, was perhaps the 11.3 G Jan Nordin and a/c survived in 1964 flying from F3! He came into an "unplanned" diving roll but managed miraculously to save the situation but the J 29 was deemed a write-off after landing with wings bent, the fuselage had a broken back and the tail unit bent 13 degrees. She still flew!

The quality and finish of the J 29 was very high. The engine was reliable and not very sensitive to foreign objects in the air inlet. One F16 Wing pilot, Nisse Benker, flew a whole training flight with a big screwdriver rattling around in the engine air inlet without problems, no damage to compressor or engine! It could also absorb structural damage in collisions, and also bullets, still continue flying. The latter about bullets became a reality in Africa.

The J 29 and S 29 also flew in UN service in Congo 1961-62. The first five J 29B flew from F8 south of Stockholm the 12,000 km to Leopoldville (With stops), reporting operational already when landing!

The "Tunnan" proved it's versatility in Congo flying in a completely different climate but maintained above 96% serviceability during the conflict, much higher than any other UN unit involved (F-86 Sabre and Canberra).

A 29B €" The attack version weapons and tactics.

Weapons and targets.
RSAF fighters kept their cannons all they way trough to JAS 39 "Griffon" contrary to the doctrine in the UK and USAAF who for a time believed cannons and dog fights was history. One benefit was the flexibility in modifying the a/c for a new role €" attack. Later RSAF a/c, even the pursuit designed J 35 "Draken", had a decent ability to attack ground targets as a secondary role.

The A 29 fixed armament was the four 20mm m/47 cannon with 180 grenades each. Additionally a choice of rockets could be carried. Mainly:
8 or 14 x 14.5 cm armor piercing m/49 rockets
8 or 14 x 15 cm m/51 armor/explosive rockets
2 or 4 x 18 cm m/49 explosive rockets. Mainly to be used against ship targets.
Wing tanks were used as napalm bombs.

The RSAF was integrated in the invasion defense force strategy at the time, which influenced the tactics.
The primary task was to combat an invasion coming from over the sea or land, or alternatively to knock out any established bridge head. The attack units trained for attacks on invasion fleet vessels, mainly transport and landing craft vessels. In a bridgehead the troop concentrations and groupings of materiel were primary targets to be destroyed
Given the geographical differences in the northern part of Sweden tactics against a land invasion developed. Primary targets being vehicles, rail road communications, bridges and troop concentrations using cannons, 15 cm rockets and napalm. Also storages and support facilities were intended targets for slowing down an invasion attempt.
On air fields the primary targets were enemy a/c to be destroyed by cannon and 15 cm explosive rockets. Secondary targets were base equipment and personnel.

Tactics
1. Flying at extreme low level
2. Attack together in battle groups
3. Coordinated concentric attacks from different directions

To avoid AA fire it came natural to keep as low as possible why much time was spent training below 50 m altitude. The time "over the horizon" was minimized to reduce exposure to AA and attack angle was only 5 to 20 degrees.

Attacking in larger groups intended to "saturate" the AA defenses. The most complicated part was to gather the battle group in shortest possible time not burning up to much fuel why take offs in groups and formation on the leader was trained a lot. Penetration of cloud layers in a group up to 1000m thickness was no major problem after training.

Attacking in larger groups had the benefit of saturating the AA defenses but increased the vulnerability to fighter attack. To reduce the risk of the attack being broken up by enemy fighters the concentric attack from different directions, preferably separated by 90 degree angles for maximum effect was trained.
This could be achieved by smaller groups closing in on the target area from different directions, timed to attack in sequences separated from each other in time and direction of attack. This demanded very tight time and flight route planning.
Another tactic to avoid fighter interception was to fly at lowest possible level in separate groups to a meeting point where the battle formation gathered for a joint concentric strike pattern €" or to attack as a group at very low level.

The tactics further contained attacks under morning and evening hours why pre-attack and return flights after attacks sometimes were done under darkness. Change of base location was to be done at anytime during the 24 hours why a lot of training was spent during the dark hours.
The interested reader can compare the above with the ground attack tactics developed during WWII.



The above was along posting but will hopefully make some of you interested in the unique Swedish developed built and flown "Tunnan" aircraft of the early jet era. The J 29 played an important role in modernizing the RSAF under the "Cold War", of which you also got a small piece of history above.

For reading further there is an excellent book in the "Flygande Tunnan" by Lennart Berns, 1996, Forlag Allt Om Hobby. It is in Swedish but with a short summary in English.

I have used this book and several other publications as reference literature on the RSAF (Later the "Royal" has been dropped and is now only the SwAF) for the above.
I also had the opportunity to meet several of the "old" J 29 pilots who were still around at F16 Uppsala when I was there in the early 1970's, and they really loved "their" J 29 and spoke lyrically about it as a real pilot's aircraft. By that time the J 35 Draken or "Dragon" ruled the skies over Sweden. But that is another story, which I might return with later if you appreciate the above.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Badsight.
12-16-2005, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by F19Gladiator:
which I might return with later if you appreciate the above. i know i sure did!

http://img6.picsplace.to/img6/9/Saab_J29.jpg (http://picsplace.to/)

Estocade85
12-16-2005, 06:43 PM
wow nice plane!

DIRTY-MAC
12-16-2005, 07:04 PM
Tack! riktigt bra info om tunnan, precis vad jag ville h¶ra, sn¤lla har du n¥t p¥ dom andra s¥ posta det,
I vilket fall skit bra post! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

DIRTY-MAC
12-16-2005, 07:06 PM
Its pretty impressive fo such a small country,
in that time we were about 8 million people living in sweden

LEXX_Luthor
12-16-2005, 07:59 PM
SWEDISH JETS!
Rule! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif and can be found here for StrikeFighters download ~> http://www.column5.us/aircraft2.shtml

J~29, by Phlerp & Team
http://www.column5.us/images/j29fsmall.jpg

J~35, by LvP, BPAO, Sony Tuckson, Crab_02 and column5
http://www.column5.us/images/j35fsmall.jpg


3rd Party F-106A with cockpit http://www.ubisoft.de/smileys/3.gif just releaced and FM is scary at slow speeds, with moving TACAN map in the cockpit that reads and displays the terrain map you are using. Amazing.

by Pasko & Team http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif
http://www.column5.us/images/f106asmall.jpg


StrikeFighters is slowly developing into the combat jet simulation to watch as LOMAC devolves into a helicopter sim. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

StrikeFighters, Wings Over Vietnam, and Beyond ~> http://www.thirdwire.com/

Estocade85
12-16-2005, 09:43 PM
So these are new, fully functional planes?

LEXX_Luthor
12-17-2005, 01:12 AM
http://www.boardy.de/images/smilies/ylflower.gif ~> http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2103

Pig_Mac
12-17-2005, 03:01 AM
The record, by a surviving pilot, was perhaps the 11.3 G Jan Nordin and a/c survived in 1964 flying from F3! He came into an "unplanned" diving roll but managed miraculously to save the situation but the J 29 was deemed a write-off after landing with wings bent, the fuselage had a broken back and the tail unit bent 13 degrees. She still flew!


AW! that sound really mean.

As a Swede i still think the Viggen is the best looking plane ever built. (With the Phantom as a close second).

Ruy Horta
12-17-2005, 03:14 AM
The Swedes have always managed a good mix between high tech and the ability to operate from rough (relatively) terrain. Next to VTOL the Swedish probably have the best material for mobile war. The Russians have also given this proper attention, most of their tactical a/c can fly on multiple fuel types and are fitted to take off from unprepared runways (high ways to any flat and hardened surface).

I sometimes wonder if the western reliance on high(est) tech is the right way to the future. All these gimmicks are nice, but there should be a break even point where low numbers of high(est) tech start to loose from high numbers of low(er) tech.

What about serviceablity under wartime conditions, and that doesn't equate to modern police actions which are pretty undisturbed and well supported, but rough field conditions, add low supplies etc (tactically when the **** hits the fan and things get difficult).

If we ever get to a full blown war, I wonder how quickly the old F-4 Phantoms need to be called upon to start filling the gaps from early high tech attrition?

F19Gladiator
12-17-2005, 06:53 AM
Hi again. today I have added some material to my posting:

Interception tactics against bombers

Tactics and weapons for the attack version A 29B.

Some minor corrections.

Enjoy! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

FliegerAas
12-17-2005, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by F16_Neo:
]

Don't miss the SK60 rocket training clip:
[...]
Or Austrian AF J35-Draken formation!
http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos.php?action=view&id=130

[...]


I saw them on an Airshow this year. It was the last time they flew together. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif A beautiful aircraft.

http://www.negativeactiongroup.at/portal/e107_plugins/coppermine_menu/albums/userpics/10075/normal_Ostarrichidraken2.JPG

F19Gladiator
12-17-2005, 12:46 PM
Hi....
Added an incident between MiG-15s and J-29s over the Baltic. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif
Also some lines about a certain screwdriver... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif
....and some contemporary targets = Bombers

Time permitting I might try to compile something on the A and J 32 Lansen and then later the J 35 Draken, one of my favourite jet aircrafts.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif -planes!

Heliopause
12-18-2005, 03:19 AM
A couple of years ago on an airshow in Holland we had this Austrian visitor...

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b334/PauseHelio/Saab.jpg

F19Gladiator
12-18-2005, 04:41 AM
Thanks for the picture Heliopause! Austria was one of the users of the "Dragon". They also flew the J 29 sucessfully for many years. Unfortunately they decided for another supplier to replace the J 35.
Denmark and Finland were also flying J 35 for many years.

However, you can buy your own J 35 in the US to set up your own "Air Force", let be without weapons.Be sure you will get New Years greeting card from your nearest fuel supplier! The RM6 engine was never conservative with the fuel consumption, why I recommend you to be selective when using the after burner - Only for overtaking above Mach 1.0 !:

http://www.controller.com/listings/forsale/detail.asp?o...40169F3595B4D8336EA6 (http://www.controller.com/listings/forsale/detail.asp?ohid=1097347&guid=3939979FD30C40169F3595B4D8336EA6)


Also a big thank you to "Badsight" for the J 29 picture! It is the last flying J 29 remaining today. Beautiful image!

F19Gladiator
12-18-2005, 08:29 AM
Trying to post a picture of the last flying J 29 I took at the air show at F16 Uppsala, 21 August 2001. Starting the engine....

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c333/F19Gladiator/th_J29_F16_2001-08-21_No1.jpg (http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c333/F19Gladiator/J29_F16_2001-08-21_No1.jpg)

Click for larger image (I hope it works?) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

F16_Neo
12-18-2005, 09:17 AM
What a great thread!
Thanks for the nice read, F19Gladiator!
Googled "Gul Rudolf, and this (http://www.streaming.telia.com/startmedia/default.asp?k=150&i=746&n=Media02/j29/J29_Tunnan_Bredband.wmv&e=N) vid came up http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

robban75
12-18-2005, 12:30 PM
Took these pics earlier this year. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/Picture553-2.jpg

Old meets the new.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/Picture391-1.jpg

Preparing for take off.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/Picture497-2.jpg

BaronUnderpants
12-18-2005, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by DIRTY-MAC:
Tack f¶r l¤nkarna!
t¤nkte mest att det kunde va kul ¥ posta lite information om v¥ra flygplan f¶r alla andra h¤r p¥ forumen, har du n¥t schysst ¥ ber¤tta om n¥got av planen s¥ g¶r det g¤rna, tyv¤rr verkar de flesta inte orka l¤sa l¤nkarna man postar,
jag skulle g¤rna h¶ra om vad de svenska piloterna och utl¤nska hade ¥ s¤ga ¥t n¥t av planen, om n¥gon av er har n¥got s¥nt ¥ posta http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Enda jag vet om Tunnan ¤r att den ans¥gs vara minst lika bra som Mig-15 och F-86.

Utl¤ndska observat¶rer blev mycket f¶rv¥nade ¶ver hur t¥lig den var i Kongo.

Heliopause
12-19-2005, 06:34 AM
Took this one a year later, also in Holland.
Clearly shows the intakes...

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b334/PauseHelio/SAABfront.jpg

This one is from a magazine...

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b334/PauseHelio/SAABmagazine.jpg

Trollisboy
12-19-2005, 12:23 PM
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAhttp://forum.savedisneyshows.org/images/smiles/eusa_drool.gif
What a lovely pic of that 37 Viggen http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
I only see two wrong thing whit that 37 Viggen

1. Wrong color it should be fourwaycamo (pic)
http://www.amv-lilliput.org/mostra2004/aerei/72/moderni/381.JPG
2. Wrong Wing, it should be F4 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
http://www.cadetstuff.org/images/viggen_2.jpg

MvH Anders "Trollis" Bernhardsson

F19Gladiator
12-19-2005, 01:38 PM
Nıce pictures guys!!!!

I have compiled Chapter 2 - the A and J 32 Lansen as per below.
Enjoy! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

A 32 A "Lansen" attack a/c
J 32 B "Lansen" bad weather fighter a/c


In 1946 the work on replacing the B 18B powered by two DB605 engines, by that time becoming operational, started by evaluating a new design. The RSAF early on decided to go for jet aircraft why the new attack a/c was proposed as such, originally around two engines and many different designs including a flying wing was considered. Eventually a two-seater one engine design developed, using a new Swedish jet engine design €" the Dovern. The a/c finally given project No. 1150 in 1948 was to be able to meet an enemy along the 2000 km long Swedish coast within one hour, carrying guns, rockets, bombs or robots during day and night. Supervising the project was Lars Brising who was also behind the J 29 "Tunnan".
Some of the design proposals have similarities with some late WWII German proposals for jet attack aircraft; if this is pure coincidental or not I can not tell.
Rolls Royce providing jet engines for the J 21 and J 29 got information on the ongoing Swedish Dovern engine project and decided to release their latest development the Avon for RSAF, thus cutting out potential competition from Sweden on jet engines. Avon became the RM5 to be built by Volvo-Flygmotor under license.
The new A 32 Lansen (Lance) flew on 3 November 1952 and became operational in 1956 at the F17 wing.

The new attack aircraft enabled for the first time all weather and 24 hour capability. Now the tactics developed by the A 21R, A 28B Vampire and A 29B Tunnan could be further developed for around the clock action. This demanded a radar set operated by the second crew member sitting behind the "Driver". Lansen had advanced electronics equipment for its time. However not all A 32 had radar as they attacked in groups.

It was the first RSAF a/c to break the sound barrier, even if it was in a dive from 14.000 meter. A total of 456 were built of all versions: A 32, J 32 B,D,E,F and S 32C until the last a/c left the SAAB factory in 1960.

Weapons
Fixed weapons were the Bofors built four 20mm cannons. License built Swiss Hispano-Zuiza weapons.
Many alternatives could be hanged on. A few examples;
Up to 24 attack rockets
Bombs 3 x 600kg
Two Rb 04C, a 616 kg radar guided homing anti-ship robot launched from maximum 32 km distance to the ship target.

Tactics
See the A 29B text for general tactics and targets explanation.
One of the primary tasks was to eliminate ships in case of an invasion, why I will describe an attack with rockets against ship targets and another with Rb04C.

Rocket attack:
Take off is done under maintained radio silence not to reveal the mission already here. A group of 8 a/c often taking off in pairs with 10 sec intervals. On the approach economical height is used to conserve fuel and maintaining radio silence. Coming into an area covered by enemy radar (100km) height is dropped to lowest level, still navigating by dead reckoning and not using the radar to avoid being detected. Low is around 10 meters in this case even if parts of trees and other objects stuck in wings proved that lower levels were also visited. Also pieces of external load such as fuel tanks have been consumed by Poseidon when coming too low over water.
Salt spray sometimes covered the windscreen and even tracks in the water by the jet stream could be visible as the A 32 formation storm ahead above the wave tops.

If attacked by fighters, the rearmost A 32s in the group dumped the cargo and turned to tie them up in a fight while the others continued towards the target. It was calculated that enemy fighters starting from the other side of the Baltic Sea could not spend that much time at lowest level at highest power setting for long until they would have to break off and return home. One defense tactics against fighters was the 'Scissors" when two a/c turned against each other at 6 €" 6.5 G at lowest level watching each others backs.
(This proved effective against the attacking Mig-15 group in 1955 when they attacked the J 29s. See J 29 text above)

Fighters attacking head on are not much of a threat though as the attack speed is high and the level lowest possible. After burner pushes raises the speed to 900 €" 1000km/h

With the radar technologies at that time it was also difficult to separate echoes from low flying a/c from the radar "ground clutter" on the screen. The green camouflaged A 32 was also difficult to spot against the Swedish fir tree forests beneath, even more so as the grey morning or evening hours were preferred for attack - or even night jobs.

During the approach ground control gave target position corrections based on shore radars or information from the navy, the A 32s still maintaining radio silence.
Enemy ship target location and changes were given with reference to an agreed reference fix point with a code name, why the enemy was kept unaware of what was brewing.

5.5 km from the target the group lift the feet out of the water and climb up at 900km/hour under a half roll onto the back, lowering the nose in a 15 to 20 degree dive towards the target and rolling back level again, aiming and releasing the rockets exploding in a fiery series of blasts into the ship sides. The attacking a/c when in formation attack keeps around 50m distance to each other and are in a wedge formation to hit the target with maximum effect and confusion.

The group turns and drops to lowest level again, spreading out on line abreast with 500 -2.000 m distance, depending on visibility, to each other in order to be able to defend each other if attacked by fighters. Racing for home to refuel and reload.

During night attacks flare bombs can be used. One a/c flying 30 sec ahead of the attack group drops flare bombs while climbing, arching them over and behind the ships thus illuminating them from behind making them stand out like silhouettes for the attacking colleagues following. The A 32 could carry 8 light bombs.

To fool enemy radar, chaff dispensers were used in the attack phase intended to blind the screens long enough to confuse.

Typical load out was eight 18cm explosive rockets, equaling a broad side by a Navy cruiser!

Rb04C attack:
Normally each A 32 carried two Rb04C, a robot which enabled attacks around the clock and regardless of visibility. Live tests showed that few ships could survive a Rb04C hit and this was the most potent weapon the RSAF had against an aggressor coming over the sea.
To confuse the enemy flee, diversionary attacks and missions were carried out to enable the robot carrying a/c to close in undetected at lowest level over the sea.

60 to 40 km from target the radar sets were switched on by all aircraft and targets selected by each attacking A 32. At slightly less than 30kms from target a climb to 50m and release of robots, followed by a dive to the deck and turn for home.

It is important to minimize time flying above "lowest possible level" and time flying straight when close to the ships. To increase the confusion and mayhem attacks were often done in groups of A 32s.

F7 wing of the RSAF also developed a novel "Flank Attack" tactic minimizing the opportunity of enemy AA efficiency, which has also been studied by foreign air forces visiting. This tactic was later also used by the AJ 37 Viggen system.

The above is some basics as there are different developments, technology and tricks not mentioned here.

Dog-fighting ability

Roy Fr¶jd in his book "Guldvingen", which I can recommend for those reading Swedish, claim that without exterior weapons load the A32 had no problem keeping the J 29F under control. The J 29F was a good dogfighter even if the J 29A was the most agile.
Having a second crew member in the A 32, an extra pair of eyes was also helpful in a fight.

Conclusion
The A 32 served for 22 years and proved very robust and service friendly. With all the load alternatives it was considered a bit under powered, but on the other hand it was claimed it could deliver the same Rb 04 as the Navy vessels against an invasion force, at ten times the speed and at the same level over the sea as the Navy!
It was a very competent weapons system with well developed tactics and powerful weapons in the hands of very well trained pilots and navigators, making any invasion attempt a highly risky adventure.
A the height of the cold war the RSAF could mobilize 1000 A32, J 32 and J35 integrated into a modern ground control system second to none.

J 32B Night fighter €" Lansen "Sport"

The Swedish night fighter force came into being after WWII with the purchase in 1948 of 60 Mosquito NF Mk XIX named J 30. These were replaced in 1953 by J 33 Venom, D.H 112 Venom N.F.51. Despite that the Venom had a performance enabling catching the bombers; a need for a more potent aircraft with more powerful radar was desired.
A total of 120 fighter "Lansen", J 32B with radar PS-42/A, delivered 1958-60
.
Engine
A stronger AVON Mk 47A based RM 6A with Swedish designed afterburner 4880kp/6500kp thrust. Max speed M 0.92 / 0.95 respectively.
Time to 14.000 m 6.5 minutes in clean configuration. 12.000 m in 4.5 min.
With two RB24 and two rocket pods 5.8 min to 12.000 m


Weapons
Designed to knock down large bombers under nocturnal and bad weather attacks, a more powerful cannon armament was installed in the J 32B version, with four fast firing 30mm m/55 ADEN cannon, with twenty rounds/second firing rate and 90 rounds per cannon. The cannon were actually a development from the famous MK 108 done by Enfield in the UK. Four of these cannons were powerful enough to fragmentize anything flying being built from aluminum.
The cannon later saw service also in the J 35 Draken.

2 rocket pods m/57 with 19 75mm air-to-air unguided rockets each.
12 to 24 attack air-to-ground rockets. Normally 16
Later:
2 or 4 RB 24 Sidewinder IR robots

Tactics
The J 32B could with the help of the afterburner intercept bombers flying at subsonic speed at 14.000m. The a/c was not considered suitable for dog-fights with other fighters because of the turn circle and 10 min maximum afterburner limit. Some pilots had another opinion about the dog-fighting ability as per below.

Attacks to be guided by STRIL (The Swedish ground control interception guidance system) on to the target for interception, where after the fighter disengaged avoiding enemy fighters.

Primary weapon was the robots, secondary the air-to-air rockets m/57 and then the cannons. Robots could only be used when weather conditions allowed IR tracking of target and before the RB 24 was introduced the rocket pods were primary weapon.
M/57 rockets could also be used against land and sea targets.

Interception of a bomber target:

The night fighter often acted individually when intercepting, if a larger group of targets were attacked the other a/c formed with 300m space on to the leader and followed by locking the radar on to him.

The night interceptor was guided by the rrjal, radar fighter ground control officer, towards the incoming target, the ambition being to guide the fighter to a position 90 degrees angle to the bomber for an attack.
At around 30 km distance the radar operator made contact by using the a/c radar and guided the pilot to contact. Against the higher flying target the afterburner is ignited and the J 32 accelerated to M 0.92, then to lift the nose surging up higher to make contact. Approaching from under the target at 1 -1.2 times the bombers speed and releasing the rockets at 1200 to 800m. If necessary the cannons are fired from 700 down to 200 m distance.

Later when the RB24 were introduced they could be fired at 5 to 0.9 km distance depending on the weather and angle.

Fighting other fighters:

Again Roy Fr¶jd gives at hand that a J 32B without external loads and 2000 l fuel easily could win over the J 34 Hunter, which was proven by ample gun camera shots.

Fighting the F-86K from the Norwegian AF in a "friendly" duel did not pose any problems either according to Roy.

High performing a/c like the fast J 35 Draken was of course more dangerous but still manageable in a J 32B with an experienced pilot, if only the first high speed dashing attack could be avoided. The J 35 used high speed hit tactics. Curving with J 35 was no problem. In a climbing turn the J 35 with its large double delta wing form lost speed quickly in a nose up attitude, where after the J 32 could drop down on the J 35 and shoot it down.
The navigator was also a help in informing the J 32 pilot about what was happening around them in the fight.
Fighting the J 29 it was important not to engage in low level dog-fights as this was the strength of the J 29.
J 34 Hawker Hunter was preferably lured to fight higher up in the air as their lack of afterburner made it inferior higher up. (A Swedish after burner was designed and successfully fitted to a J 34 but the project discontinued as the J 35 was just around the corner).
A formula for success was of course a well rehearsed "rote" (Two a/c) tactic with good communication and mutual protection.

How the J 32 B would have fared against contemporary fighters is not known. What is known is that some MiGs attacking RSAF a/c over the Baltic succeeded to drive themselves into the waves. Trying to follow an a/c making an evasive half roll when attacked from a higher altitude with higher speed, which the MiG drivers favored, it was a big risk the attacker could not level out before meeting the fishes!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif



References:
Lansen, Sven Stridsberg, 1992, Allt om Hobby forlag.
Svensk Flyghistorisk Tidskrift 1/2004. Bert Stenfeld article.
Svensk Flyghistorisk Tidskrift 4/2004. Olle Jensen article.
Svensk Flyghistorisk Tidskrift 1/2000. Hans Rogberg article.
Guldvingen, Roy Fr¶jdh, 2003, Air Historic Research AB
...and Miscellaneous litterature from my library

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c333/F19Gladiator/th_J32F16airshow2001-08-21No2.jpg (http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c333/F19Gladiator/J32F16airshow2001-08-21No2.jpg)
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c333/F19Gladiator/th_J32F16airshow2001-08-21No1.jpg (http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c333/F19Gladiator/J32F16airshow2001-08-21No1.jpg)
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c333/F19Gladiator/th_J32F16airshow2001-08-21No4.jpg (http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c333/F19Gladiator/J32F16airshow2001-08-21No4.jpg)
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c333/F19Gladiator/th_J32F16airshow2001-08-21No3.jpg (http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c333/F19Gladiator/J32F16airshow2001-08-21No3.jpg)

Above my pictures of a J 32 Lansen. Click for larger images.
Also added the "business end" of the J 32 and the a/c it once replaced, the J 33, with a J 32 behind. Very different designs!

F19Gladiator
12-19-2005, 02:31 PM
I have not come to Viggen yet, as the J 35 Draken is in between. Might come back with the J 35 after the week-end, daytime job permitting.

Posting two photos of the JA 37 Viggen painted in blue, taken at F16 Uppsala Air Show 2001-08-25, as a teaser for the more modern Swedish a/c!
(Of which sadly few remain)
Enjoy:
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c333/F19Gladiator/th_JA37BlueF16No2.jpg (http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c333/F19Gladiator/JA37BlueF16No2.jpg)
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c333/F19Gladiator/th_JA37BlueF16No1.jpg (http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c333/F19Gladiator/JA37BlueF16No1.jpg)