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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 07:47 PM
Blue team was running low on my server so I jumped to the German side and climbed into a BF-109 K-4. What exactly is there to whine about?? That thing can climb to the heavens and descend like a demon to unleash a devastating hell upon the peasants below. I was almost bored with the ease of its abilities to waste its enemies. So I ask what are the Luftwhiners boo hooing about? Should the German planes be even more uber? I'm really curious. This isn't a flame, but it seems to me that some of the complainers in the ORR are maybe just bad sticks looking for excuses. Care to clarify?
(I know I only mention one German plane but this also holds true with the F-4 among others)

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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 07:47 PM
Blue team was running low on my server so I jumped to the German side and climbed into a BF-109 K-4. What exactly is there to whine about?? That thing can climb to the heavens and descend like a demon to unleash a devastating hell upon the peasants below. I was almost bored with the ease of its abilities to waste its enemies. So I ask what are the Luftwhiners boo hooing about? Should the German planes be even more uber? I'm really curious. This isn't a flame, but it seems to me that some of the complainers in the ORR are maybe just bad sticks looking for excuses. Care to clarify?
(I know I only mention one German plane but this also holds true with the F-4 among others)

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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 07:52 PM
The K4 is a rocket! If flown well, it can best anything but the 262. History says it was a great climber. Its current ability to outmanouver the D9 at high speeds I find somewhat erroneus. As it is now, the K-4 has it all.

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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 07:55 PM
from wat u've written obviously u dun fly LW that often...

well, u ever used the MK108 on the K4? use it, investigate it and then tell me what u think...

and ever tried to head on with a P39 then go in a straight line dive but only to find out the P39 has turned around and catch up with ur initial dive speed? (altho eventually u will outdive the P39, but it has happened many times to me and i get killed in that way...) how can the P39 turn around then out dive the K4?

FB is actually much more balanced and improved for the LW side... back in IL2, the problems with LW planes were simply unacceptable...

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 07:57 PM
I think the 109s are too good compared to the 190s. It's generally accepted that the 109 was outclassed by the end of the war, and that the 190 was the best plane germany had to offer. I agree that the K4 is terrific in FB.

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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 08:23 PM
spanker wrote:
- from wat u've written obviously u dun fly LW that often


You're right I don't fly LW often. I don't think I need to fly it often to know that I felt an immediate increase in abilities over other planes such as the P-39.



spanker wrote:
- well, u ever used the MK108 on the K4? use it,
- investigate it and then tell me what u think...


I did use the MK108s on the K4. They were devastating to the enemy. You don't have the same results?



spanker wrote:
- and ever tried to head on with a P39 then go in a
- straight line dive but only to find out the P39 has
- turned around and catch up with ur initial dive
- speed? (altho eventually u will outdive the P39, but
- it has happened many times to me and i get killed in
- that way...) how can the P39 turn around then out
- dive the K4?


I wouldn't be silly enough to attempt a head-on with a P-39. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Maybe the P-39 had more E on the initial pass and used a low bleed turn to engage. Perhaps the P-39 pilot masterfully used CEM along with that excess E advantage to catch you. I mean everyone has a story but do they really know all the facts? Maybe that P-39 just came out of a dive and pulled up to engage you in a head-on while you were in a more shallow leveled off dive. It wouldn't be hard to turn and catch you in such a scenario.




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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 08:29 PM
-
- I did use the MK108s on the K4. They were
- devastating to the enemy. You don't have the same
- results?
-

the MK108 issue dates rite back to the beggining of IL2.... the tracer and non-tracer issue...

in FB, thre is not much difference btw tracers and non tracers now, but one shot one kill doesn't exist anymore (unless u r really lucky).... sometimes it doesn't even do any structural damage when hit (in as losing a wing or control surfaces, but of cos the hit point of the section hit is reduced)... i just recorded a track today in VOW, my G6/AS's MK108 hit a LA5FN right in thr tail section... nothing happened... no loss of control cable or control surfaces....

but apparently the MK108 is much better in the upcoming patch... lets wait and see

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 08:42 PM
BpGemini wrote:
- Blue team was running low on my server so I jumped
- to the German side and climbed into a BF-109 K-4.
- What exactly is there to whine about??

I don't think anyone has any serious problems with the 109s (apart from the underwhelming feeling of the nose-mounted 30 mm cannon and the blinding muzzle flash).

Regards,

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 08:57 PM
I remember posting a lame rant in Oleg's room a while back complaining about the guns on the F4. All this followed a frustrating string of evenings unloading all my ammo into g00se's, Helos', Volski's.....LaGG 3. Yes the LaGGs are super-duper hard bastards anyway but it was only when I gave up trying to knock them down from their 6 that I realised the F4's guns aren't that bad. Not great but still deadly. I quite like (read love) having a good group of 20mm rip into an enemy A/C. As the overall firepower of the F4 is low, there's a kind of surgical thrill going on when you get it right. Not for me the huge caliber boom-tastic cannons.

I haven't the faintest idea whether the guns modelling is right or not (LW or VVS) but every aircraft's armament package has it's plus and minus points. Trick is not fighting against the minuses but practicing with the positives.


Lixma,

Blitzpig.

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 08:59 PM
@Spanker: Are you sure it was a true HO and he didn't lead turn you instead?

@Nicolas: 100%.

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 09:07 PM
I also love how you can engage WEP and run all day without overheating. It's a real fun date...

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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 09:20 PM
Ya The 109 FM is good, I love it, just the damage of the mk108 seems to be somewhat random,.... can smoke the hell outta a la7 and do nothing but dent it and scratch it to bits. Other times it takes only 3 bullets, rarely 1 but even sometimes 1 30mm. Back in IL-2 if you hit a plane in a critical area such as wingroot or fuel****e, then it would have a black puff of smoke and a one hit kill most of the time. Now one hit kills are rare, but meh I still like the 109. Oh and the spray is a little exaggerated of the 30mm.

Muzzel flash may be high but, eh.... its intimidating /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

But agreed, the FM is wonderful.

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 09:20 PM
Lixma wrote:
- I haven't the faintest idea whether the guns
- modelling is right or not (LW or VVS) but every
- aircraft's armament package has it's plus and minus
- points. Trick is not fighting against the minuses
- but practicing with the positives.


Absolutely.

I think too many people are forcing the negatives and feel it is necessary to complain about the plane from those limited experiences. I think after a few epiphanies they would see a new way to fly and would have a more positive outlook.




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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 09:47 PM
Not many people whine about the Bf 109's. I firmly believe that they are highly overmodeled. The high speed handling of the Bf 109 is what the Fw 190's should be like, and the current Fw 190's high speed handling is what the Bf 109's should be like. The MK 108 is undermodeled in terms of accuracy and power, there is no real question there. Oleg even admitted it and it is supposedly fixed in the first patch (assuming we ever get it).

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As we all know, the Soviet Union had too many fighter pilots during WW2. So Stalin's scientists came up with a brillient way to solve this problem. They would make some of their pilots fly British made Hurricanes. The Hurricane was an uber flying coffin. It was designed to maximize pilot kills by providing nothing but fabric and a few wooden spars around the cockpit. This setup prevented the pilot from escaping easily while at the same time not interfering with enemy bullets and shrapnel trying to pass through it. The rest of the Hurricanes structure was designed to ricochet bullets and shrapnel into the cockpit. And thanks to the cockpits superb design, all of them would pass through the cockpit and the pilot inside with little difficulty. Of course the Hurricane's designers didn't stop there. In order for the Hurricane to become a flying coffin, they had to make it easy to shoot. They did this by making the Hurricane the slowest monoplane fighter in use at the time and even gave it a very bulky shape so that it would be easy to spot and hit. The final feature of the Hurricane was its ability to bury or cremate itself. And because it was made of biodegradable materials, the Hurricane was environmentally friendly after it buried itself. Because of these brillient features, the Hurricane was a perfect flying coffin and helped the Soviets solve the pilot surplus they were suffering.
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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 09:57 PM
BpGemini wrote:

- I was almost bored with the ease of its abilities to
- waste its enemies. So I ask what are the Luftwhiners
- boo hooing about? Should the German planes be even
- more uber?
--------- - ------------ -- -- ---------

I guess mostly whining as ive heard it occurs when every body on one side goes Yak(=Yak3) (happens a lot) even if there is p39,p47,yak9,.... the reason why?...

Yak3 :

1. has best view + zoom out view (= uber view)
2. cant be out turned. ( by axis )
3. cant be out flown or out dived.( with any 109 )
4. cant be out climbed.( by any 109 )


Ive tested 109s agains Yak3 with an equal pilot in fb, and though both of us has mostly flown 109:s we had no problems
in shooting down the 109. At best the 109 had a single pass
Head on, then he was on the defensive, and could only try to evade until help arrived....so even speed doesnt help
when one on one.

and its ok! But its get boring when "yak3 side" need all that advantage.

In my experience only a few fly p39 or p47 but they soon switch to yak3, when theywe been shot down.
not even yak9 is used, why?(= cockpitbars) allthough its visibility is much better than any axis plane. and over all a good plane.

I havent tested fw so much against the yaks, but i suspect
fw must dive in and shoot from great distance at unsuspecting enemies? should be farely easy to evade a fw
in a yak3 since the view in fw is so bad.( Ill test it soon).

So the whining is not the yak3(good plane) its the broad
willingness to prefer an uneven game( big brother vs little brother) that anoys many(where is sence for fair play)( its a game )

-its great to shoot a yak3 in 109
-its great to shoot a 109 or fw in a Lagg,mig,p47,p39,rata,chaika and even yak7b,yak9

-but its quite silly when all on one side flies yak3.

This is real Luft whining!
----- ----- ---- ----- ----- --- ---


"The tiny group that refuses taking of crossfields, from now on".

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 10:07 PM
The 109K4 is a good plane
nothing to whine about
but the 190 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 10:18 PM
ob_swe wrote:
- I guess mostly whining as ive heard it occurs when
- every body on one side goes Yak(=Yak3) (happens a
- lot) even if there is p39,p47,yak9,.... the reason
- why?...
-
- Yak3 :
-
- 1. has best view + zoom out view (= uber view)
- 2. cant be out turned. ( by axis )
- 3. cant be out flown or out dived.( with any 109 )
- 4. cant be out climbed.( by any 109 )
-
-
- Ive tested 109s agains Yak3 with an equal pilot in
- fb, and though both of us has mostly flown 109:s we
- had no problems
- in shooting down the 109. At best the 109 had a
- single pass
- Head on, then he was on the defensive, and could
- only try to evade until help arrived....so even
- speed doesnt help
- when one on one.
-
- and its ok! But its get boring when "yak3 side" need
- all that advantage.
-
- In my experience only a few fly p39 or p47 but they
- soon switch to yak3, when theywe been shot down.
- not even yak9 is used, why?(= cockpitbars) allthough
- its visibility is much better than any axis plane.
- and over all a good plane.
-
- I havent tested fw so much against the yaks, but i
- suspect
- fw must dive in and shoot from great distance at
- unsuspecting enemies? should be farely easy to evade
- a fw
- in a yak3 since the view in fw is so bad.( Ill test
- it soon).
-
- So the whining is not the yak3(good plane) its the
- broad
- willingness to prefer an uneven game( big brother vs
- little brother) that anoys many(where is sence for
- fair play)( its a game )
-
--its great to shoot a yak3 in 109
--its great to shoot a 109 or fw in a Lagg,mig,p47,p39,rata,chaika and even yak7b,yak9
-
--but its quite silly when all on one side flies yak3.
-
- This is real Luft whining!



Here's a little background info on where I'm coming from. On my server I have a three team set. I have Germans as Blue, Russians as Red, and the Allies as Green (Olive). It's a 1v1v1 scenario. I take my P-39 up against Yak-3s all the time. I can honestly say the Yaks give me the hardest fight out of anything. With that said, I can also say I don't complain. I take it with a grain of salt and try to beat them any way I can. Why whine about it? I don't expect everyone flying Russian to fly anything they don't want. Fair play in a War Simulation seems silly to me. You take away the fun of over coming a good challenge whenever you try to make the game fair. You could just as easily say the same thing about the Hurris or the Me-262. I allow them as well. I have seen a lot of guys flying the Me-262 as of late. I don't whine and boo hoo about it. Just get up there and kick ET's arse! (Lame movie quote). Btw I don't really see the Yak-3 out climbing the K4. That thing rockets to the stratosphere.




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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 10:19 PM
BPGemini,

You obviously have flown it before because no person can just jump in an aircraft they have never played with and have instant success and good things to talk about. The 109K needs lots of attention and handling right now in its current status. The MK108s which it is armed with are not devastating at all unless you can get to good hits or more on your target. That should not happen. Have you ever seen what damage a 108 can do to an aircraft in real life?
Most people who whine about it don't know how to fly it accurately. Yeah it can takeoff fast and dive like a demon, but the Yaks and LAs can do it so much more easily and just pull right up on your six.
When ever I get a YAK or LA on my tail I just bring him down and if the guys dumb enough to follow me in the dive he'll break apart the minute I start hitting 730. I think it the way the 109K is right now is awsome. I love it, but their are some issues with it. But then again, this is a sim so nothing can be perfect.


I'm curious, what plane do you usually fly BPG?





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So he tells me, "I ban the Me262 cause its turn rate is over modeled and it dosnt stall"... Then he takes off from his base in a Hurricane.

Message Edited on 06/30/0309:22PM by CGReload

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 10:44 PM
CGReload wrote:
- BPGemini,
-
- You obviously have flown it before because no
- person can just jump in an aircraft they have never
- played with and have instant success and good things
- to talk about.


Joo calling mEs a liar? I'll cut joo! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Just kidding.
Seriously, I have flown it once. I have flown other 109s. I must be special. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif Although I think it's more likely that it's not that hard to tell how a plane performs and get the hang/gist of it in a short period of time.



CGReload wrote:
- The 109K needs lots of attention and
- handling right now in its current status. The
- MK108s which it is armed with are not devastating at
- all unless you can get to good hits or more on your
- target. That should not happen. Have you ever
- seen what damage a 108 can do to an aircraft in real
- life?


Nope can't say that I can. Although I can say they did the job for me in the simulation.



CGReload wrote:
- Most people who whine about it don't know how to fly it accurately.


I think this is a very accurate statement and my main point. What's sad is I've flown it once and that was enough to know it's nothing to whine about.



CGReload wrote:
- Yeah it can takeoff fast and
- dive like a demon, but the Yaks and LAs can do it so
- much more easily and just pull right up on your six.


Isn't this their strength? If I were flying a Yak or LA I wouldn't get into a B&Z or head-on fight with a 109. I'd turn to get on their six.



CGReload wrote:
- When ever I get a YAK or LA on my tail I just
- bring him down and if the guys dumb enough to follow
- me in the dive he'll break apart the minute I start
- hitting 730. I think it the way the 109K is right
- now is awsome. I love it, but their are some issues
- with it. But then again, this is a sim so nothing
- can be perfect.


I would be "dumb" enough to follow. Only I wouldn't allow for that speed to be reached. I would level out and save a little altitude on you to engage your next move.


CGReload wrote:
- I'm curious, what plane do you usually fly BPG?


Take a guess. Hehe
Hint: Look at my sig
Hint #2: P-39

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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 11:14 PM
BpGemini wrote:

I take my P-39
- up against Yak-3s all the time. I can honestly say
- the Yaks give me the hardest fight out of anything.
- With that said, I can also say I don't complain. I
- take it with a grain of salt and try to beat them
- any way I can. Why whine about it?


-------------------- ----------------- --- -----


well... your right about that, its a challange with tough competition and the wars was for sure not fair in RL.
You could be an ace shooting down unarmed cargo or passanger planes, or shooting paper decoy-planes on the ground. real war is never fair.
But in a "game", were no one gets hurt u can make it a sport.
like any sport.

for example:
a lone bomber is easy to down, but if it has escort it becomes more interesting.(only easy kills isnt interresting..not to me)( Kill counting dont beat a good fight)

- ok i understand u..I love the p39 and for sure u can shoot down yaks farely easy.. but only because of the
turnrate in p39.......but in a p39 i prefer and expect to meet the enemy(=axis) not allied (=yaks)
ok! ok! im an "oversporty" guy( Im a swede.)

once I saw Boxing on tv. A small guy vs a big guy( dont know why).... well the tiny won. that was ok(good for him)
but if the big guy had won it sure would have been embarrasing in any swedes or finns eyes.( I belive )
so in that way I never would fly Yak3 if p39 or p47 , yak7b
or even yak9 is available.
----- ------- -------
also I think p39 is very hard for any axis plane to down.
Since Ive flown p39 and 109s alot.( my favorits)

I havnt tested Yak3 against me262 enough... but so far I cant see that yak3 has anything to fear from a single 262.
perhaps the yak cant catch the 262, but with the high speed
of the 262 it should be easy to evade,as against 109 and FW.(I must test)

----------
When all go yak, we go stuka with the sniper!

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 01:13 AM
ob_swe wrote:
- well... your right about that, its a challange with
- tough competition and the wars was for sure not fair
- in RL.
- You could be an ace shooting down unarmed cargo or
- passanger planes, or shooting paper decoy-planes on
- the ground. real war is never fair.
- But in a "game", were no one gets hurt u can make it
- a sport.
- like any sport.
-
- for example:
-
- a lone bomber is easy to down, but if it has escort
- it becomes more interesting.(only easy kills isnt
- interresting..not to me)( Kill counting dont beat a
- good fight)
-
- ok i understand u..I love the p39 and for sure u can shoot down yaks farely easy.. but only because of the
- turnrate in p39.......but in a p39 i prefer and
- expect to meet the enemy(=axis) not allied (=yaks)
- ok! ok! im an "oversporty" guy( Im a swede.)
-
- once I saw Boxing on tv. A small guy vs a big guy(
- dont know why).... well the tiny won. that was
- ok(good for him)
- but if the big guy had won it sure would have been
- embarrasing in any swedes or finns eyes.( I belive )
- so in that way I never would fly Yak3 if p39 or p47
- , yak7b
- or even yak9 is available.
------ ------- -------
- also I think p39 is very hard for any axis plane to
- down.
- Since Ive flown p39 and 109s alot.( my favorits)
-
- I havnt tested Yak3 against me262 enough... but so
- far I cant see that yak3 has anything to fear from a
- single 262.
- perhaps the yak cant catch the 262, but with the
- high speed
- of the 262 it should be easy to evade,as against 109
- and FW.(I must test)
-
-----------
- When all go yak, we go stuka with the sniper!



All I'm wondering, with my point of view, is why don't more people take on the roll of the little boxer. That would be really "oversporty".

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XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 01:32 AM
ob_swe....made a good point about the nature of whining when he mentioned the fairplay factor. If one particular side has the Yak-3 then the odds are pretty much in favour of that side winning an engagement. The opposing team may well cry foul and claim "it's not fair, their planes are better" but is this not how it was in RL ?

I would hate to see the various breeds and creeds of aircraft in FB "balanced" as though it were a Quake clone.

My current self imposed training is deliberately taking on Yak-3s in my 109. I currently have a 30/70 success rate (ish) but i'm getting better and am usually first to get a hit. However, my guns are useless at the minute so all I get for a good shot is a puff of smoke. The patch can't happen soon enough. Now that's a whine !!!


Lixma,

Blitzpig.

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 01:41 AM
Actually I don't have any problems with the 109-series at all, but since I've never flown the aircraft in real life a put my trust in the team who created the aircraft, and for the 190, well, theres obviously a reason it flies like a brick, my tactic is to place myself in front of the enemy and then let him spend all him ammo trying to shoot me down..... Like two persons kicking each others balls, mine are just concrete and I get to kick last/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 01:42 AM
BP-Gemini, good topic & i like your posts./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I'll fly anything & either side to keep things balanced when i do go online, but
I've actually stayed away from the Luftwaffe planes inpart because of the attitude of many of Luft-whiners. i mean if you get beat be a good sport. If you win it's just boasting to complain about the FM/DM etc.

It seems Blue players insist on flying the best aircraft available to them but then cry "foul!" When Red does the same ?
ob_swe wrote:

I never would fly Yak3 if p39 or p47
-- , yak7b
-- or even yak9 is available.

So then would you fly an older model 109 even if the K is available ?? Because I think the K is equal to or better than the YAK3 in the hands of a good pilot.



It kinda seems that guys who are REALLY into Luft aircraft are well, kinda anal. So they notice every little thing that doesn't match with their ideas of these planes.

No offense meant ,,. so please don't take any. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


http://www.enfamil.com/guides/onlineactivities/images/yak.gif


"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 01:49 AM
It all boils down to Bias Projection.

People have thier One True Love of the air and assume that, because they saw a movie depicting its success, the machine will be just as successfull no matter what variables are tossed into the equation.

Once they find thier beliefs wrong, they immediately throw out reason and claim Bias on the part of the developers. Projection, pure an simple. They think planeX won the war so it must be a problem of bad modelling.

I fell victim to this same thing, but I'm quite over it now. I know that my POS bi-plane must be used exactly as described by RL accounts. If you can't appreciate the full meaning of that statement, perhaps you should try a new type of game... I hear quake3 is very entertaining.

As far as the mk-108 arguments that keep popping up: which round is modelled in the game? There were two primary rounds loaded into these, both with specific jobs. Since I don't see any B-17 formations around, I'd guess that the incidiary rounds are the ones modelled, in which case: Time to do some research people!

The more I fly FB, the more I find that it does a fantastic job of representing history. The pilots, on the other hand, go above and beyond the call of duty when TOTALLY SCREWING IT UP.

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XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 02:03 AM
It does not matter what plane I fly or whether I am any good in it or any of them for that matter.

This is a game, its a "simulation" genre but its still a game not a simulator.

lw planes have some great fire power even if it is hard to keep the sights on target while using it. The others are just as quirky in thier own right.

Having NEVER flown any of these planes myself... I don't care what the canopy is supposed to look like inside, or how fast that plane is NOT supposed to climb or turn. Give me a plane and let me loose... FUN here I come.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Just wanted to state my opinion whether asked for directly or not... thats the joy of forums.

edit: still have to resize sig.. sorry.

Saluté from LWulffe_CR
Member of The Lone Wulffe Squadron
http://www.LoneWulffe.com
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-6/226423/IL2Sig2.jpg

Message Edited on 06/30/0306:04PM by LWulffe_CR

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 02:17 AM
In my opinion, aside from all the complaining about different aircraft's individual performance, the reason for all the whining is due to two factors.

1.Weapons don't do even remotely enough damage. I have read many accounts from wwII pilots talking about how they flamed out fighters on empteen occasions with one short, quick burst on the six. Now because the German aircraft are mostly energy fighters, they don't have the firing window that turn and burner russian fighters do. I find it extremely frustrating to empty a 3 second firing stream into someones a/c only to see a few peices of debris falling off. This is just not the way it was folks. They would have exploded into a million pieces. Since russian turn and burners can stay with the target to put more lead in the aircraft, they can be more succesfull.

2. Global turn/stall/energy bleed chracteristics. It was basic doctrine in wwII NOT to turn hard. EVER. The reason: you bleed off all your speed and become a sitting duck. Not true in FB. Now this isn't only true for the Russian planes, but I find it especially true for yak 3. You can turn it as hard as you like. You can do a complete turnaround and lose VERY little energy. This gives the better turing aircraft a huge advantage. Because they don't have to worry as much about preserving E as real life pilots did. Also the stalling at high speeds. This did not happen. In FB with some aircraft (cough p47 cough cough) even if youre going 500 mph, if you pull back hard on the stick you go into a stalling spin. Guess again Oleg. My grandfather flew hellcats in the pacific and he told me that as long as you kept your speed up, you wouldn't stall. But don't pull too hard, or you will bleed you energy and a zero you didn't see will get ya.

This game is SO close to perfection it's frustrating. I really think its a great game, but we're all looking for a realistic flight sim, and FB can be contradicted way too easily by real life pilot accounts. Maybe its whining and nitpicking, but we all bought this game hoping for true realism and realism is what we deserve. What we got is the soviet version of the story in many ways. Maybe this wasn't on purpose. I hope it wasn't. If the patch fixes things then all will be forgiven. But give us the bloody patch already! Don't make us beg!

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 02:28 AM
Most the whinning these days from the Luftwaffe has been related to the 190 and rightly so in some areas. We have been quite about the 109s as to not draw too much attention to it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. My only issue with the 109s is the rear end. I can manage to lose all my controls from a errant bb fired from a 12 year old 5km below me. Was the 109 really this delicate in the rear?
AS said though 109s die from pilot mistakes in general...I know I do, but then again I prefer the early versions.

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 02:31 AM
Just my 2 cents. The Mk-108 will almost surely be fixed in patch, making the best plane in the game (late 109's) even better. That is the only significant whine that the Luftwhiners have about the 109 IMHO. Yak-3 is currently overmodelled, but then again so is 109 IMHO. I am a big 109 fan but I believe it is definitley overmodelled, especially in high speed handling and it's stable overall nature. The real 109 was twitchy/tricky to fly, demanding alot of the pilot's attention, in FB it flies like a dream (as all planes do). I would really like to see increased torque effect for all planes.

And so many people fly 109 and Yak-3 that I really feel like giving them up for good. Most people don't really like these planes, they fly them because they are the best. That is why I have respect for people who stick with P-39, P-47, and 190. Currently I am learning 190 just to fly something different, and I am confident I will be rewarded after the patch /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif . I can't wait until patch comes out so maybe there will be more diversity online. I'm sure there will be, as I believe/expect many planes that will improve to the point that they can be flown competitively with the 109's and Yak's. And planes like the P-51, P-38, Tempest, Spitfire, and Ta-152 can't get here fast enough.

http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/graham4.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 02:43 AM
Puck,
I don't really disagree with you, but the guns & DM are going to be addressed in the patch.

Don't know about the energy bleed thing, but on a related issue not many kills were really scored in dogfights in ww2. Surprise bounces were the way to down someone & if you missed on the 1st pass & wanted to live you didn't usually go back for seconds.

As for pouring 3 secs of ammo into a plane , which one I'll try it in QMB with a friendly.


"stalling at high speeds.
- This did not happen. " Gotta disagree here, there's a thing called a high speed stall. tho the Hellcat was the best (most effective) fighter of WW2 IMO & was a psycat by all accounts.


It's amazing how much we accept the German version of things & have a greater distrust for Soviet sources in a way. Post war US army interviewed German officers to learn how to fight the Russians & foolishhly accepted a lot of German prejudices IMHO. The idea of German technical supperiority has really lived on too, But the Russians have been downplayed as stupid & brutish. Oops i'm rambling way too much...forgive me

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 02:46 AM
BpGemini wrote:
- ..............

Something to think about.

If each a/c was doing 300mph, they would be seperated by 2.5 miles in 15 seconds after they passed each other. What is the turn time for a P-39? The K-4 was also accelerating in its dive.



http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap18a.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 06:10 AM
Tried the mk108 out in QMB & a single round blew a p-47 to bits, tried it three times . Easily blew the tale off Ju52.

twice. one JU52 took 3 rounds before going down but the first to didn't really do anything but go thru the side of the fuselage.

Gotta agree that the 109 seems awfully easy to wheel around , but i still trash them on landing . Can't sem to care though.

kyrule2 wrote:

And so many people fly 109 and Yak-3 that I really
- feel like giving them up for good. Most people don't
- really like these planes, they fly them because they
- are the best. That is why I have respect for people
- who stick with P-39, P-47, and 190

Yeah I don't get that. My first flights on-line were in the Lagg3 & I got 2 kills, iwas thrilled. Since then i've flown P47s against tanks tried strategic bombing of sorts with a P-40 & took a la 5 with only one aileron back into a dogfight I'd escaped just to see if i could tag someone anyway. Mother Russia was proud of me.
http://www.alexandme.com/assets/images/crying_woman.jpg


Granted it is boring if everyone flies the same planes..hmm that gives me an idea......
http://www.redwoodcity.org/commun/graphics/lightbulb.gif



"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 07:37 AM
Saburo, sometimes when I am on a server that is flooded with 109's and Yak's, I'll take a FW-190 and load her up with bombs and start making high speed raids into their base. I'll keep retreating, seeing how long I can survive. Actually this is some of the most fun I have had online as I love fighter/bomber stuff, and dogfighting can get old fast.

http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/graham4.jpg


Message Edited on 07/01/0306:37AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 09:05 AM
I think many of you have made good points.
and the planes and all in FB is great.

I havent flown real fighters/bombers or been in wars.
so i cant really say anything about FM.
What Ive read so far about ww2 planes is contradictory,
especially statistics, wich is allways a highly questionable source of truth,( in any field ) bcause its not possible to take all or even many variables in acount. ( my opinion )
--------------------------------------------------------

kyrule2 wrote:
- Saburo, sometimes when I am on a server that is
- flooded with 109's and Yak's, I'll take a FW-190 and
- load her up with bombs and start making high speed
- raids into their base. I'll keep retreating, seeing
- how long I can survive. Actually this is some of the
- most fun I have had online as I love fighter/bomber
- stuff, and dogfighting can get old fast.
-------------------------------------------------

I havnt flown fw much. but ive tried sneaking raids too.
It sure gets lonly after awhile.and escorts are rare.
When axis , I mostly fly 109 with bombs = drop egg on enemy and act as fighter homebound.
when allied, P39 , p47 with same role.


I must admit that I highly admire those guys/gals who fly
bombers and keep on flying them, almost never getting escorts when asking( I try giving escort)

and also p47and p39 are rare. nowadays I even try avoid shooting down p47 multiple times (really) because they dont get escorts either. and its sad when they go yak.
p47 really is a good plane, (even fighter). and it also have the zoom out view(shift+f1) wich improves visibility.
U wil have more succes with it if u apply axis team tactics
( never alone ) or if alone , escape at lowest level after your attack, and the enemy will lose u against the ground.(not on winter map though)(it would be great to fly with or against multiple p47 or p39 some time.

when i started to fly FB I was really surprised that so many ignored the runway on take of, now it is a rare sight
seeing fighters use the runway, only bombers do?

I dont remember who it was, but it was a bomber pilot who impressed me with his taxiing and accurate take ofs and landings. it was very anoying to see all fighters crisscrossing the field and the bombers take of run like scared chicken. after that i try using at least the taxiway for take of just to avoid being run over by my own . if im just taxiing ill soon have a prop chewing my elevator.

So thank u "unknown bomberpilot" u do it with style.

<img src="/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif"

Tully__
07-01-2003, 11:32 AM
BpGemini wrote:
- CGReload wrote:
-- BPGemini,
--
-- You obviously have flown it before because no
-- person can just jump in an aircraft they have never
-- played with and have instant success and good things
-- to talk about.
-
-
- Joo calling mEs a liar? I'll cut joo! Just kidding.
- Seriously, I have flown it once. I have flown other
- 109s. I must be special. Although I think it's more
- likely that it's not that hard to tell how a plane
- performs and get the hang/gist of it in a short
- period of time.



Planes are like languages, the more you know, the easier it is to learn new ones.

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Salut
Tully

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 12:18 PM
kyrule2 wrote:
-
- And so many people fly 109 and Yak-3 that I really
- feel like giving them up for good. Most people don't
- really like these planes, they fly them because they
- are the best.

True to a certain point: but reds have more choises, in the 109's case its as simple as the axis only have 2 fighters to choose from (depending on server settings, but i prefer "axis vs allies"). Once the addon is released im sure more ppl will fly other types, but as for now i fly 109's (and i do like it!) and learning He 111. Occationally i take a spin in the Stuka as well but i seldom survive cos its such an easy target. (Stuka vs Yak3 ..now theres a challange /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )





Message Edited on 07/01/0311:20AM by Olli_72

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 05:00 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
-
- BpGemini wrote:
-- ..............
-
- Something to think about.
-
- If each a/c was doing 300mph, they would be
- seperated by 2.5 miles in 15 seconds after they
- passed each other. What is the turn time for a P-39?
- The K-4 was also accelerating in its dive.



First let's look at your math. You are assuming that the P-39 is going to continue in a straight and opposite direction for 15 seconds when realistically the P-39 would've been turning. In this case the P-39 would equal as a motionless variable from two tangents in the arc outside of a line (90 degree perpendicular of the 109's angle of descent) with the start of the turn. That would mean the distance gained would be 1.24995 Km (0.7766829 miles) if the turn took 15 seconds. That's half the distance you've calculated.

I think the turn rate is closer to 20 but I think 10 seconds is more accurate for the game because virtual pilots turn fearlessly.

In my response I mentioned the P-39 could've had an E advantage. "Maybe that P-39 just came out of a dive and pulled up to engage you in a head-on while you were in a more shallow leveled off dive. It wouldn't be hard to turn and catch you in such a scenario."

Let's say Plane A equals the 109 and Plane B equals the P-39.

Plane A is traveling at 300 Km/h and has just nosed down to engage Plane B. Plane B just pulled up out of a dive and has nosed up to engage Plane A. Plane B is traveling at 600 Km/h. After the head-on pass, Plane B begins a vertical loop. We'll assume the loop will take 10 sec and will cost -10 Km/h of speed per second. Plane A is in a descent gaining a +5 Km/h of speed per second. With this scenario Plane A will reach a speed of 350 Km/h and have a 0.902777 Km (0.56 miles) head start on Plane B. It will take Plane A 70 seconds to reach 700 Km/h (The point at which the P-39 would break up and the K4 is still safe). Plane B has reached the exit of the loop and is now traveling at a speed of 500 Km/h with an acceleration of 10 Km/h (Plane B's angle of decent would be greater due to the altitude advantage gained in the loop) Plane B will over take Plane A in 16.249 seconds and will be traveling at a speed of 662.49 Km/h. Plane A will have reached a speed of 431.245 Km/h.

It seems to me too many people want to scream "cheater" or dismiss things as bad FM just because they got waxed in a game where many variables decide the outcome and the victor.

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XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 05:03 PM
I fly 109s about 95% of the time and IMHO there's nothing to whine about. If flown right (read: smart) the various 109s in the game are capable of downing any of the VVS planes. And I disagree about the lack of plane choices on the LW side. The 109 changed so much during it's evolution that it became several different a/c over the course. An Emil is very different from a F4 which is diff. from G6 which is diff from a K4.

The only thing I would say is that anybody who fancies his or herself a hot poop pilot in most of the VVS birds should try a 109. It might be a humbling experiance

Also, Puck555 wrote:
-I find it extremely frustrating to empty a 3 second firing stream into someones a/c only to see a few peices of debris falling off. This is just not the way it was folks.-

Are you sure you were landing all those rounds?

I was shocked coming from CFS2 to IL2 when I realized that my super gunnery abilities from the former weren't gonna cut it in the latter. I think the gunnery model in this game is very accurate. Which means you have to be as well.

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 05:34 PM
nicolas10 wrote:
- I think the 109s are too good compared to the 190s.
- It's generally accepted that the 109 was outclassed
- by the end of the war, and that the 190 was the best
- plane germany had to offer. I agree that the K4 is
- terrific in FB.
-
- Nic

That`s not exactly what russian fighter jocks are recalling. 109 Was the most feared oppenent all the way to the end of the war. 190`s never gained as much respect on the eastern front, even dora. It is not my opinion, just an observation from quiet a few books written by russian pilots. Pokrishkin mentioned that arrival of 190 was was a big scare at the beginning...but after few encounters and even downing two of them in 1 fight soviet ace mentioned that BF109 was more agile and its climbing abilities we more respectful. But he did say that 190 was most feared by IL2 and bomber pilots, due to horrendous firepower and durability. In fighter vs fighter situation it was rather average. Same conclusion comes from Kozhedub`s book and Rechkalov`s.
I guess Oleg didn`t base his "FW190 was not really respected by russian pilots as 109 was" statement on nothing.

V!

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 06:05 PM
I just want my dora to have the correct flight model /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 06:05 PM
Everyone always talks about DF servers /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif they give you a warped view of FB - especially its FM.

Most of our fights are above 7000M - all are at least above 4000M. Try that kind of E-Fighting in the LW types....

Historial advantage - LOL current FM's are a joke up there but I await the patch /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

JG5_UnKle

"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't sooner or later, somebody who does, will kick your ***"


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XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 06:18 PM
I see no way that the yak3 outclimbs the k4. The yak3 does seem to overtake the 109 in a zoom climb though, it stays close enough to at least get a kill shot. If you take off at the same time and climb in a k4, the yak3 is history.

From everything I've seen on this forum it doesn't appear that anyone is giving the yak9 a chance. It's my bird of choice lately and I'm thinking the 9u is the best all around plane in the game.

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 06:43 PM
Olli72, Yeah, I can't wait for addon so axis gets planes like Bf-110, IAR-80, zero, and hopefully a Macchi. That would certainly add some variety. And believe it or not Rmutt shot me down once in a Stuka and I was in a Yak-3. I flew past him, came around to line up a shot on an easy target, he pulled straight up and the last thing I saw was 2 little flashes from his rear gunner then all went black. So I DID get shot down by a Stuka in a Yak-3, how embarrasing. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I was just starting off online but still....ouch.

http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/graham4.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 08:02 PM
Tully__ wrote:
-
- BpGemini wrote:
-- CGReload wrote:
--- BPGemini,
---
--- You obviously have flown it before because no
--- person can just jump in an aircraft they have never
--- played with and have instant success and good things
--- to talk about.
--
--
-- Joo calling mEs a liar? I'll cut joo! Just kidding.
-- Seriously, I have flown it once. I have flown other
-- 109s. I must be special. Although I think it's more
-- likely that it's not that hard to tell how a plane
-- performs and get the hang/gist of it in a short
-- period of time.
-
-
-
- Planes are like languages, the more you know, the
- easier it is to learn new ones.


Exactly. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif





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XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 10:51 PM
BS87 wrote:
- I just want my dora to have the correct flight model. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif


I've flown the Dora a couple of times. It'll get to 650 Km/h level. What's there to complain about?




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XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 10:56 PM
BpGemini wrote:
- Blue team was running low on my server so I jumped
- to the German side and climbed into a BF-109 K-4.
- What exactly is there to whine about?? That thing
- can climb to the heavens and descend like a demon to
- unleash a devastating hell upon the peasants below.
- I was almost bored with the ease of its abilities to
- waste its enemies. So I ask what are the Luftwhiners
- boo hooing about?


Get inna fwA5 fly it a bit and then you tell me.



fox out

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XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 01:07 AM
FoxThree wrote:
- Get inna fwA5 fly it a bit and then you tell me.


No kidding?
I'll have to try it.
The FW-190A5 was one of the best FWs in IL-2.
It's all fecked now?






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XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 02:34 AM
Actually, in the virtual environment(unlike reality) where there are no fuel shortages or lack of experienced pilots etc, the historic WWII German planeset will always be superior to Russian, English, and American virtual fighter aircraft.

There's just no way around it.

And this will always be true until computers and sims are powerful/complex enough to model campaigns with hundreds of aircraft in the air at the same time, to accurately replicate numerical superiority, pilot inexperience, morale, and mechanical defects as the reality was in WWII.






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"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

====================================
"I hit you so hard there would be tiny little ME-109's flying in circles around your head" - USAFHelos
====================================

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 07:52 AM
Good post FW190Fan - I would like to see La5 wings detach through poor construction and LaGG-3's acually overheating and wooden tailed G-6's being more vulnerable and overstressing the airframe due to G-Loads and.....

I could go on /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

JG5_UnKle

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XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 07:59 AM
But then my Typhoon/Tempest would lose it's tail. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

I disagree that LW planeset should always be superior in virtual world. I think planes like the La-7, Yak-3, P-51D, Tempest, Spitfire IX/XIV were certainly a match for LW 1 vs. 1. With the exception being the Me-262.

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XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 12:48 PM
Saburo_0 wrote:
- I'll fly anything & either side to keep things
- balanced when i do go online, but
- I've actually stayed away from the Luftwaffe planes
- inpart because of the attitude of many of
- Luft-whiners. i mean if you get beat be a good
- sport. If you win it's just boasting to complain
- about the FM/DM etc. ...
...- So then would you fly an older model 109 even if the
- K is available ?? ...

Please do not generalize. Many of luftwaffe pilots are good pilots who fly on very hard planes "fw190 f.e.". And yes i never fly on K4 online, like i didnt fly on AS on il2. I dont like easy planes. And yes im mad when somebody shoot me down, but it is just making me stronger in my politics to fly harder plane. I think many things are bad in LW planes. Some are to good too. Blue are the same guys as red, one of them like easy kills others like hard fights (even if they loose). And trust me, if you would fly 1 year on fw190, against la5 and yak3, on il2 you would like to fly sometimes uber plane too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Fly fast, stay high, shoot to kill.

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 05:26 PM
FW190fan wrote:
- Actually, in the virtual environment(unlike reality)
- where there are no fuel shortages or lack of
- experienced pilots etc, the historic WWII German
- planeset will always be superior to Russian,
- English, and American virtual fighter aircraft.
-
- There's just no way around it.
-
- And this will always be true until computers and
- sims are powerful/complex enough to model campaigns
- with hundreds of aircraft in the air at the same
- time, to accurately replicate numerical superiority,
- pilot inexperience, morale, and mechanical defects
- as the reality was in WWII.



All the more reason not to whine and biatch.






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