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View Full Version : SecuRom what is it? Part Two



Slapp
12-10-2006, 03:44 AM
As you know the other SecuRom threads have been locked for a variaty of reasons but never the less some very interesting points and insights where raised by many people here about SecuROM in general and it's implementation in 1946.

Threads can be found here:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/5981022215/p/1
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/5091022215/p/1

Please can we keep this one on track, civil and constructive so that we can share and hopefully appreciate and learn from our different views and perhaps find a solution to any problems.

Thank you

Bewolf
12-10-2006, 03:58 AM
You may want to take this thread to another forum.
Even though I didn't participate in other discussion, to me it appears as if UBI does not want discussions about that here and locks those threads ASAP, no matter the reasoning.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Bewolf

Never discuss with stupid people.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Capt.England
12-10-2006, 11:17 AM
Please send your house and car keys to me as I think that it is wrong that you people keep them locked up!

IBTL

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Why do joysticks break when you need them the most?

LEBillfish
12-10-2006, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by Capt.England:
Please send your house and car keys to me as I think that it is wrong that you people keep them locked up!

+1

That's all it is, like a key...JUST like what you use to use the above....Have the key and it's not an issue.....More so it really does not affect the car/home/software owner, as it just prevents the car/home/software from being copied and sold for no effort.

What stuns me though is how everyone fails to see how Ubi has listened to every complaint....Responded investing 10's of thousands I'm sure, to protect their rights yet make it as easy on the customer as they can...

Ubi has done all that has been asked of it sans handed over the keys to the kingdom at great cost and effort to themselves.......Yet still a select few hammer at them, yet demand no less of their property.

Hypocrisy at its finest.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif IBTL<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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steve_v
12-10-2006, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by Slapp:
Please can we keep this one on track, civil and constructive so that we can share and hopefully appreciate and learn from our different views and perhaps find a solution to any problems.

Thank you As long as this thread stays on topic, there will be no lock.

rnzoli
12-10-2006, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by Capt.England:
Please send your house and car keys to me as I think that it is wrong that you people keep them locked up!

IBTL

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

It's complely okay for me to lock up my house, however, forcing me to use a lock which poses absolutely no difficulty for bulgers to break in no time.

I agree with LEBillfish. Hypocracy at it's finest. From UBI. Can someone tell me: what is the value of a lock, which is so easily broken by criminals? Within hours of game release? What, really?

I would take a different approach. I would "crack" my program myself, and put illegal copies everywhere. Just drop a link in HL and it will spread like wildfire. However, I would make sure that the 'hacked' versions behaves slightly inferiour to the legal version. For example, it would collect stats on the favourite plane you fly most often, and gradually degrade its performance (increase stall speed to prevent historic performance, misalign convergence or introduce wobble to reduce weapon effectiveness, reduce top speed to allow pawning by others etc.) in the background, without any notice to the user. It could also introduce random lag/warp into the net data stream when connected to the most popular server of the user, so he gets kicked more and more often.

Effect on legit users? Nothing.
Effect on criminals? Priceless! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

I am surprised that 1C, a Russian developer company, didn't think of this yet.

....

or..


...

(thinking of all those whining threads about underperforming fav planes, maybe this is happening already? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif)<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Viper2005_
12-10-2006, 12:14 PM
Probably because that would force them to allow "modified" versions of the game to play online with the default version. And if you can modify it to make things worse for the user, you can modify it to make things better...

I have made my views clear regarding this copy protection in one of the earlier threads.

IBTL

arjisme
12-10-2006, 12:42 PM
The metaphor of locking the house/car works fine for me. Before I bought these, the previous owners secured them against theft. Once I bought them, the previous owners were no longer in the picture -- they became my things and I choose when and how to secure them. In fact, to help offset loss, I even insure them. But my house is not locked all day long -- only at times I choose. Same with the car. I would like the same option wrt to the software I buy.

Now the reality is that software and real, physical assets are not exactly the same. It is possible to duplicate software w/o causing a loss of usage to another person. However, this also means potential profits from selling the software are at risk and it is THAT fact that drives attempts to secure software with things like SecureROM.

I'm not against securing software against theft of profits. However, I think there must be better ways to do it than schemes that require a disc be in a drive. Now '46 already has the system it has and I'm skeptical it can or will be changed. But the discussion is still worthwhile because maybe Ubi will be listening and will look at a different approach in the future.

A few ideas I would favor:
- Online registration to unlock the software
- Provide patches and add-ons that will only work with fully registered copies of the game
- Require a registration code to unlock the game. Require that the disc be in the drive to enter this code, but this is a one time event. Find a way to tie the code to the physical disc.
- Release as shareware (with features turned off until paid for)

NonWonderDog
12-10-2006, 02:11 PM
What SafeDisc and SecuROM really do is dissuade casual copying and professional piracy. They do almost nothing to deter the "Warez" scene, and I think they've mostly given up on it. Only Starforce had any noticeable impact on Warez, and it was at far too high a cost to everyone involved.

SafeDisc (which is far more popular than SecuROM, actually) and SecuROM work by requiring that each CD have a pattern of "errors" cut into the disc. Both vary slightly on exactly where and how the pattern is cut -- I really don't know or care about the specifics -- but they both work on the same basic principle. The errors are ignored by most burning software that just copies the data (as the copy-protection pattern isn't data), and any CD without the correct pattern won't be accepted as genuine. It is possible for some CD-burners with specific CD-copying software (Nero, CloneCD, and BlindWrite, mostly, which is why they're blacklisted by some versions of SecuROM) to recreate the pattern expected by some versions of SafeDisc and SecuROM, but it's a hassle and it usually doesn't work.

This means that making a copy of your CD to give to a mate usually doesn't work. There are always no-CD executables floating around the internet, but it's an extra step.

The main thing, though, is professional piracy. If you bought the CD in a jewel case from street vendor in China or Russia you expect it to run out of the box. It probably won't come with a no-CD patch built-in, and having to install it separately would instantly alert you to the fact that you bought pirated software. The logic here is really goofy -- you just bought a CD in a poorly-labeled jewel case from a shady street vendor, so you probably already know it's pirated -- but preventing this kind of piracy is supposedly what copy-protection is supposed to prevent.

Copy protected discs that rely on an intentionally flawed data stream do occasionally fail on some hardware, however. SecuROM in particular was famous for this a few years back. Most new CD and DVD drives are robust enough to work around the copy protection pattern, but there are a few that will fail to read a protected disc every now and then. This *is* due to the copy protection in a very real sense, since the affected drive will usually have no problem reading standard discs. Trying to get the poorly-trained support staff of any copy protection company to acknowledge this is nearly impossible, however.

VFS-22_SPaRX
12-10-2006, 02:13 PM
Have you ever hear the saying..................

"Locks on doors only keep the Honest People Honest"

Well it can pretain to Copy Protection as well.

"CD/DVD Copy Protection will keep the Honest People Honest"

Just as a lock on a door makes it harder to enter a house/car/building, Copy protection makes it harder to copy a game. That is it's intent. Publishers like UBI are not stupid, they know that they will never be able to stop piracy. They can make it harder. Stop the "casual copier". The person that would make multiple copies and give it to their friends and family if it was as easy as putting the disc in your drive and pushing "COPY". That is the intent of copy protection. And it stops about 90% of piracy.

Just as the saying goes, if you make it easy, someone that might not copy your game will. Most people do not have the technical know-how to get around copy protections. They do not know what virtual cd/dvds are. They do not know what a disc image is. They have no idea what FTP/Bittorent/IRC is. They do not know what a rar file is. What a crack is. And these are people that use computers on a daily basis. IF you think I am wrong, just look through these very forums and see how many people cannot do something as simple as edit the config.ini file. Or do a simple file swap. Cannot figure out how to backup their IL2 settings and user files before they reinstall. Better yet what to do with those files when they reinstall.

So they original post asked the question...........

"Securom, what is it?"

It is nothing but a simple applicatoin that does a CD/DVD verification. It does not install services. It does not "phone home". It does not collect your personal info and send it somewhere. All it does is when you start the game, it verifys that you have an Orginal Disc in your drive. That is it. All the other "speculations" you see floating around have not been shown to be even remotely true.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

SPaRX

www.war-clouds.com (http://www.war-clouds.com)

"Why do they call it common sense when it is so uncommon!?!?"

George "Lefty" Whitman: "it is not the plane, it is not the pilot. It is the opportunity. The best pilot in the world is useless if he got surprised or caught in a bad position. "

Tater-SW-
12-10-2006, 02:15 PM
Using the car lock metaphor, my car came with 2 sets of keys, which is useful in case I lose or trash a set.

How do I make my 2d set of keys, please?

tater

VFS-22_SPaRX
12-10-2006, 02:26 PM
Tater,

What is "2d set of keys".

And the car lock metaphor is very appropriate in this case. Because if a simple key and lock system will stop people from stealing cars, then why are they electronic security systems on cars now. As the times change, so does how you protect your property.

Alot of cars now have a chip in their keys. If you do not use these keys to start your car, it will not start. The only way to get around it is to purchase a new set of keys. Last i checked, it cost $100 per key for my cars and getting copies of a key at the local hardware store only cost $3-5. This is the same as, No DVD in the drive you dont play the game. You lose or destroy your disc, you have to buy another.

Locks do not stop people from stealing cars. If they want to get in your car, they break the window or pick the lock. If you have an electronic security system, then they need to bypass that. These two things require you to...

1. Decide if you want to go through the trouble of breaking the window.
2. Have the skill to pick the lock and disable the security system.

This is the same as CD/DVD copy protection. It will not stop theives, but it will stop MOST. Most peole do not have the skills needed copy software. Most do not even have the skills to acquire a pirated version of the software.

So you see, this is a perfect metaphore, actually analogy between locks and copy protection.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

SPaRX

www.war-clouds.com (http://www.war-clouds.com)

"Why do they call it common sense when it is so uncommon!?!?"

George "Lefty" Whitman: "it is not the plane, it is not the pilot. It is the opportunity. The best pilot in the world is useless if he got surprised or caught in a bad position. "

VFS-22_SPaRX
12-10-2006, 02:31 PM
NonWonderDog, looks like we were writing almost the same post at the same time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif hahahah


S~<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

SPaRX

www.war-clouds.com (http://www.war-clouds.com)

"Why do they call it common sense when it is so uncommon!?!?"

George "Lefty" Whitman: "it is not the plane, it is not the pilot. It is the opportunity. The best pilot in the world is useless if he got surprised or caught in a bad position. "

LEBillfish
12-10-2006, 02:36 PM
No....point blank, "no"......You are all incorrect.

Copy protection is NOT intended to stop the professional hacker or pirate. That would be great, yet quite simply if you can collect all the data (place it on your HD) You can make a new disk and it is the same game once you sift out the protection................Copy protection, just like locks on your house, car, locker, suitcase etc., is there to prevent "joe average guy" from copying it and handing it out to his 30 buddies.

Very few "individuals" would "pay" for pirated versions, even at half price......What anti-piracy is to protect from are those who cause the majority of lost sales.....The average consumer who is just being a bud to his friends trying to buy their friendship so does so himself.

Point blank, JUST like a house or car, software companies have the right to make their money from their efforts.......Tell me if you "refuse" to make your house payment or car payment you'll have them for long......The key for your house or car does not protect from the professional thief, just the one who thinks "hey, what the heck" and goes for it....

Ubi paid to have the right to protect their product realizing that over time they lose the ability to protect it.......In kind they also invested a lot of money to protect that short time frame.......Lastly, they have been kind enough to spend even more money to accomodate their customers..."Note the word"...CUSTOMER...as in the end this only harms non-customers and even then for only a limited time.

Think folks......Use your heads. Being the least educated person here I cannot believe I understand these concepts and you don't......Then again, maybe you uorselves don't believe what you're saying either. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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"I love my Ha-40's"
"She loves teh Swallow"
"Don't call me cho-cho san"
</span>

VFS-22_SPaRX
12-10-2006, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by ar****e:
The metaphor of locking the house/car works fine for me. Before I bought these, the previous owners secured them against theft. Once I bought them, the previous owners were no longer in the picture -- they became my things and I choose when and how to secure them. In fact, to help offset loss, I even insure them. But my house is not locked all day long -- only at times I choose. Same with the car. I would like the same option wrt to the software I buy.


I was with you right up to where you made the statement in bold above. You are not purchasing the software. You are paying for the USE of the software. The ownership of the software on the disc does not change hands when you purchase the disc. You are merely paying the use of that disc. So the option to protect the software against theft is not in the hands of the enduser because it is NOT their property. It is still the property of the Developer.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

SPaRX

www.war-clouds.com (http://www.war-clouds.com)

"Why do they call it common sense when it is so uncommon!?!?"

George "Lefty" Whitman: "it is not the plane, it is not the pilot. It is the opportunity. The best pilot in the world is useless if he got surprised or caught in a bad position. "

WOLFMondo
12-10-2006, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
No....point blank, "no"......You are all incorrect.

Copy protection is NOT intended to stop the professional hacker or pirate. That would be great, yet quite simply if you can collect all the data (place it on your HD) You can make a new disk and it is the same game once you sift out the protection................Copy protection, just like locks on your house, car, locker, suitcase etc., is there to prevent "joe average guy" from copying it and handing it out to his 30 buddies.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

I would prefer it if it came with a key that identified itself with an MD5 hash and you have to register it to use it. Makes it easier for online as well, server owners can ban by MD5 hash like BF1942, which means the owner has to buy another copy of the game to play on that server.

ALso mean you don't have to put the disc in the drive every time. One thing I like about Steam.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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rnzoli
12-10-2006, 03:05 PM
just like locks on your house, car, locker, suitcase etc., is there to prevent "joe average guy" from copying it and handing it out to his 30 buddies.

That's a good point, but how do you explain this. The anti-piracy solution prevents 100 "joe average guy" from making 30 copies each. Awsome, let's keep their mind clean, I agree.

What happens then? Just one smart guy cracks the solution, and spreads the link to 100 "average joes", who quickly spread it to their 30 buddies. They all download faster than you can order and get it shipped legally.

Once again - what's the net result of the anti-piracy solution? Piracy protected? No. "Average joes" are clean from illegal acts? No. Honest users are making fools of themselves? Yes.

Make no mistake - I want anti-piracy software to work, that is preventing 100 people around me pointing at me and laughing "ha ha ha, you paid for this, you still wait, idiot, I already downloaded and I am having tons of fun, ha ha ha". Can the current solution prevent this? It seems not. Then what the heck is it useful for?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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arjisme
12-10-2006, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by VFS-22_SPaRX:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ar****e:
The metaphor of locking the house/car works fine for me. Before I bought these, the previous owners secured them against theft. Once I bought them, the previous owners were no longer in the picture -- they became my things and I choose when and how to secure them. In fact, to help offset loss, I even insure them. But my house is not locked all day long -- only at times I choose. Same with the car. I would like the same option wrt to the software I buy.


I was with you right up to where you made the statement in bold above. You are not purchasing the software. You are paying for the USE of the software. The ownership of the software on the disc does not change hands when you purchase the disc. You are merely paying the use of that disc. So the option to protect the software against theft is not in the hands of the enduser because it is NOT their property. It is still the property of the Developer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah, I understand that we are really buying the license to use the software. In a similar vein, we could debate how it is similar to leasing a car -- you don't ever own it. Still, locking it or not is pretty much up to you.

The real point of my post was not to debate the need to protect software. Are most of the folks who are complaining about SecureROM saying they don't think that commercial software should be secured somehow? If they are, I'm not in that camp.

I want a different system that protects the software but is less intrusive to me, the customer. I'm the customer shelling out the money. I'd be happier if there was a better way. I have opted not to buy software in the past when I've heard its copy protection was too intrusive. It's a judgment call for me as to when that matters. Certainly it has mattered for games I was curious about but not "sucked in" to. In this case, I'll put up with it because I like this flight sim too much. But, as I said, I wish there was a better way.

DuxCorvan
12-10-2006, 03:29 PM
I don't mind having my house locked... while the keys given to me do work.

Copy protection must work, and must be safe. It's OK for me. But:

1) Copy protection must not prevent legal users from using the game. Companies including copy protection should be more user-friendly and supportive with copy protection technical issues, not leaving it all in the hands of the protection company -usually everybody washes hands.

2) Copy protection must not prevent legal users from using other legal software for legitimate purposes. Prevent it to be used with YOUR software, but leave our private wedding pics burning alone.

3) Copy protection must not include software that may degrade PC performance and won't disappear completely after the game is uninstalled. Besides, copy protection should be clearly indicated in the packing of software, so customer can have a choice -specially if that protection has known technical issues.

4) Legal users would be able to upgrade their systems without losing legal rights to use the game again. Microsoft has finally understood it, and Vista will be able to be activated an unlimited number of times, while it can not activated in more than one computer at the same time.

5) A private backup copy is not piracy, nor it is a demand. It is an user RIGHT which is expressly included by most copyright laws, and which is constantly and illegaly denied by most software distributing companies. Printing abusive clausules in an EULA and having them unadvertedly accepted, makes no right above law at all.

Low_Flyer_MkVb
12-10-2006, 03:31 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Tater-SW-
12-10-2006, 03:35 PM
Sparx, an "extra set of keys" in the case of '46 is the ability to make a backup copy so WHEN it scratches, I can still play the software I paid for.

I have a 3 year old in the house. She opens the CD drawer, puts my disk on the floor ONCE, and it is toast. All it takes is me spacing out removing it just once, and that is aside from normal wear which will still scratch it since this will be the only game in the drive, and will be in there 24/7/365.

I'd be fine with a no-CD hack, but that defeats the purpose of this scheme entirely, doesn't it?

tater

rnzoli
12-10-2006, 03:46 PM
I wish there was a better way I think it is fair to mention that UBI, and generally speaking, all decent software publishing firms try to find a better way. It's not an easy quest. Probably the sales figures nowadays factor in the people driven away from the software due to its intrusive protection (-) and the number of people who can't wait until a cracked version surfaces and will buy the game due to this reason (+).<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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LEXX_Luthor
12-10-2006, 04:46 PM
It may be of interest whether Oleg's Russian+ version of the 4.06 software does or does not have SecureRom. Recall, as far as we know, Oleg did not know that ubi was going to slip the BoontyBox exe into the western releace of Pe-2 4.05. But then, Russian DVD might have StarForce lol.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

__________________
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:
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Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Freelancer-1
12-10-2006, 04:54 PM
SecuRom is one of the more benign forms of copy protection. I've had no problems with it in other games that contain it.

If you don't want it in your game, simply buy the download version.

Presto! Problem fixed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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LEXX_Luthor
12-10-2006, 04:59 PM
My first computer game, DOS Su-27 Flaker 1.0, required the CD in the drive to start the game, and I never thought it was a hassle. As long as the copy restriction software does not interfere with anything at all, it could work okay. With Windows, who knows.

Recall an old Oleg interview before FB 1.0 releace. Oleg said that FB would require two (2) CDs, and both CDs had to be in the (2) drives because of copy restriction. That was just a Oleg joke, but the boards went into a Panic of magnitude not seen again until TB-3/I-16SPB Svenyo (or "stack") preview screenshots when the Online Blue Squads thought it was a 1946 Russian thing...they never saw it before in any of their books.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

__________________
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"You will still have FB, you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"At the altitudes this community flies at, diving is not an option." ~Stiglr
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
"109Z flew briefly, after being hit by a bomb. Go-229 also saw combat, when the factory was overrun." ~pingu666
:
"Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

-HH-Quazi
12-11-2006, 01:28 AM
So far, so good. KUDOS all!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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