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Warforger
01-17-2011, 10:27 PM
Why are the Borgia evil just because they want to conquer Italy? I mean sure they may be brutal leaders but it would be better for Italy in the long run because Austria and France placed their own kings to rule the Italian states and used them to their advantage. What solved this in the first place was the unifying of Italy! The Austrians and French are finally ousted and the Italians were unified. I mean he doesn't even say he wants to rule the world just Italy, even then he's no more evil then Alexander The Great or the British Empire, two empire's which tried to take over and world got really far but ultimately failed but are remembered in history as good things.

ThaWhistle
01-17-2011, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by Warforger:
Alexander The Great or the British Empire, two empire's which tried to take over and world got really far but ultimately failed but are remembered in history as good things.

very debatable. culturally for both yes. politically, not so much.

but anyways. its probably the whole tyranical side of it that is the main problem. But the stories in the animus make seem more insignificant every game. the desmond story arc is really whats going on now. This game seems like borderline filler aside from the stuff outside the animus. Its part 2 and a half, and like every part two of every trilogy, its just a set up for the third.

Auditorexxx
01-17-2011, 10:38 PM
Well as i was playing the game, the borgia seemed like all they care about was territory and money. They didnt care about the people and the structure of it. Also keep in mind that the borgia killed mario in the villa. Revenge, rage, punished, Ezio sees them as evil.

ThaWhistle
01-17-2011, 10:53 PM
from what I've seen in gameplay videos, Ezio is angry at everyone and hates everyone, except for the silent majority that he oh so loves, except they secretly hate and condemn him and his ways and wishes he would stop breaking all their damn roof tiles and potted plants.

AntiChrist7
01-18-2011, 01:12 AM
Well that's a bit the point of the game. To let you think that good and bad aren't that straightforward

RebeccaLH
01-18-2011, 01:18 PM
They are templars.

DeanOMiite
01-18-2011, 02:17 PM
It's not that the Borgia want to conquer/unite Italy, it's that they want to control all of its subjects and basically assert themselves as dictators. And by control I don't mean rule the way a president or a king does, I mean control as in they want to use the Pieces of Eden to manipulate the minds of every Italian citizen.

It may be an old archetype, but it works. He who seeks to control the minds and lives of others = evil.

Warforger
01-18-2011, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by AuditoreRed:
Well as i was playing the game, the borgia seemed like all they care about was territory and money. They didnt care about the people and the structure of it. Also keep in mind that the borgia killed mario in the villa. Revenge, rage, punished, Ezio sees them as evil.

You just described pretty much every European nation but they're not looked down upon.

Again, even if it is a brutal rule, it's still better then Austrian and French rule because that's even worse. And it's not like every nation wasn't already like them in the first place.

SAVMATIC
01-18-2011, 06:14 PM
Dude, did you see how citizens were abused and lived in poverty? ok, that would be YOU, not Ezio, in real life. They didnt care about the people they ruled, they only cared about personal gain and by whatever ruthless means they could employ. Imagine if your entire family was murdered for the sake of the Borgia's personal gain....
do they still sound ok?

SAVMATIC
01-18-2011, 06:19 PM
so your basically saying just "**** it" because you think thats how all other rulers were at the time? very wise.
Ezio and the Assassins are about preserving the free will of humankind so that they may resume their evolutionary process. Not, "oh it would be easier to just live without hope and suffer under Borgia rule than fight back, plus did you hear, some guy told me its just like this EVERYWHERE else, so whats the point?"
*proceeds to jump off cliff*

Warforger
01-18-2011, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by SAVMATIC:
Dude, did you see how citizens were abused and lived in poverty? ok, that would be YOU, not Ezio, in real life.

Abused? How so? Also poverty was already rampant anyway and it wasn't because of him anyway, it was all over Europe.


Originally posted by SAVMATIC:
They didnt care about the people they ruled, they only cared about personal gain and by whatever ruthless means they could employ. Imagine if your entire family was murdered for the sake of the Borgia's personal gain....
do they still sound ok?

During this time there was no wide spread concept of nationalism yet, so you would fight for the King, so yes if I were an average person during that time it's quite possible I would go for him if he has the approval of the Catholic Church, which he has.


Originally posted by SAVMATIC:
so your basically saying just "**** it" because you think thats how all other rulers were at the time? very wise.
Ezio and the Assassins are about preserving the free will of humankind so that they may resume their evolutionary process. Not, "oh it would be easier to just live without hope and suffer under Borgia rule than fight back, plus did you hear, some guy told me its just like this EVERYWHERE else, so whats the point?"
*proceeds to jump off cliff*

And you know what happened in real life? Austrian and French princes came down and ruled instead exploiting these states for their own benefit, this would not have happened if at least the Borgia ruled and united Italy, sure Cesare Borgia would be viewed as a madman but at least eventually it would be toned down and his successors would probably be not nearly as brutal. So yes, any Italian state unifying Italy is a good thing in the long term much like how Stalin was good for Russia in the long term (before you attack me here while he slaughtered alot of people he industrialized Russia, something the Tsar's were never able to do and rapidly).

ThaWhistle
01-18-2011, 07:59 PM
The papal states were some of the poorest and least developed areas of Italy at the time of the Renaissance.

Florence on hte otherhand, was not that bad of a place to live, especially given the standards of the age.

And Stalin barely mechanized Russia, even up at the peak of Soviet industrial power, they were horribly inefficient and the average russian experienced almost as bad of living conditions under Lenin and Stalin as they did under the Tsars.


And your argument can work for a lot of revolutions or takeovers of nations. The French revolution for example, started off as reform, then a whole crapload of people got their heads cut off. They then suffered through several failed republics and dictatorships for many decades.

As far as popes of the renaissance went, Alexander VI was a pretty brutal one, especially with Cesare as his battleaxe. Although the idea of him being supported by the church and throughout doesn't really hold alot of weight, espeically considering the Papal schism that happened just years before the events of AC2.

Warforger
01-19-2011, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by ThaWhistle:
The papal states were some of the poorest and least developed areas of Italy at the time of the Renaissance.

Was that because of him?


Originally posted by ThaWhistle:
Florence on hte otherhand, was not that bad of a place to live, especially given the standards of the age.


Yah, but it still wasn't that great of a place to live and there was still oppression.


Originally posted by ThaWhistle:

And your argument can work for a lot of revolutions or takeovers of nations. The French revolution for example, started off as reform, then a whole crapload of people got their heads cut off.


Uhhh what? It started with the Storming of The Bastille. But you're probably referring to the King trying to reform the Estate system.


Originally posted by ThaWhistle:
They then suffered through several failed republics and dictatorships for many decades.


Uh not really, most of the brutal dictators were either the monarch's or Robespierre, the other's weren't nearly as bad or were just terrible leaders.

KonEl3016
01-20-2011, 01:55 AM
Cesare would have become a tyrant. He wasn't only going after Italy either he says Spain should be his too.

beacuase...
01-20-2011, 06:52 AM
I don't think anything like what the Borgia intended for Italy really matters in whether they are evil or not.

The reason they are presented as being evil is because their method, of trading free will for better living conditions is seen as wrong by the Assassins. And since we play as a member of the Assassins, we are therefore presented the whole idea that what the Borgia are doing is wrong.

You could argue of course, like OP is, that trading free will for better living conditions - or power, or money, or whatever. Sorry, I had a hard time tracking Brotherhoods story - is a fair trade, and thats what the Templars believed. If we had played as a Templar, we'd believe they were the good guys.

It's nothing to do with the specifics, it's all about how we're presented with the ideas. Ubisoft were meant to veil the Borgia with enough negative things that we'd feel they were evil. Like Cesare murdering his father, screwing his sister, being an angry brat, etc.

They did that pretty well, and that's why most people here think the Borgia were evil and the Assassins were right. But obviously not well enough, because OP has disagreed with them.

It's actually kind of weird. Ubisoft have forced us to side with the Assassins, who believe in free will. Which is ironic, because we were given a biased view of the whole situation. Ha.

RzaRecta357
01-21-2011, 03:46 AM
If buddy wants to argue FOR a person whom Killed his own brother to get power. Had a father that would make up fake laws to stick people in jail and steal their stuff only to retire to an incest orgy, so be it.

Let him.