PDA

View Full Version : TnB rating



SterlingX
06-22-2009, 05:04 AM
How would you rate the aircraft you are familiar with according to their ability to gain enough lead on each other in a sustained and pure turn - no flaps, max power, no change of turning direction? Here's my list (but I wasn't too sure in some places).

I-16s
Zeros
Spitfires
SBD
Bf-109 E/F/G2
Stuka
La-5 F/N
Yak 1B/3
Ki-61
P-39
Hurri
Bf-109 G6
Ki-84
Ta-152 H
Il-10
P-38s
P-51s
A-20
Corsairs
Tempest
Il-2s
Dora
FW-190As
P-47s

Manu-6S
06-22-2009, 05:18 AM
All depends on altitude and above all speed.

SterlingX
06-22-2009, 05:35 AM
Lets say ground level, near stalling.
The P-47 would gain lead on some of the 109s if it turned in a larger circle with a different center point, so this kind of rating is not intended to be representative of actual fighting prowess, just a specific form of maneuverability.
It is still something useful to keep in mind - I've always thought that the Corsair is in the same league as the P-47 and flown in accordingly, until I realized that with flaps it can turn with the Ki-84 - it's not such a poor turner after all.

JtD
06-22-2009, 06:00 AM
Mate, get il-2 compare. It'll give you very good answers. For what it's worth, your list is missing (all in top spots) the I-153, Gladiator, Cr.42, Ki-27 and Ki-43.

glvaca
06-22-2009, 06:34 AM
The LA5-FN will outturn the 109's for sure. Not to mention the LA7.

Manu-6S
06-22-2009, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by JtD:
Mate, get il-2 compare.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

raaaid
06-22-2009, 07:45 AM
actually with a good climber slightly manuobrable you can out turn a more manoubrable worse climber plane if you make a climbing spiral which in the end is a circle

M_Gunz
06-22-2009, 08:48 AM
Find the plane that uses the lowest power % in the slowest power-on level flight.
I have found more than one that will fly at 140kph power on clean but only checked the P-40B for lowest power
and TBH how little power % I can hold level depends on me, it changes somewhere around 33% with all the rest
available for turn. I can get a 109G-6 Late down to 140kph power on clean, the slowest I can go.
I haven't tried with flaps down, how slow I can go.

The slower you go, the smaller the radius. Any power more than what you need to hold level is your ability
for sustained turn or climb. What power % it takes to hold level and how slow it can hold level tells the
story.

Maybe add some biplanes to that list?

BillSwagger
06-22-2009, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by SterlingX:
How would you rate the aircraft you are familiar with according to their ability to gain enough lead on each other in a sustained and pure turn - no flaps, max power, no change of turning direction? Here's my list (but I wasn't too sure in some places).

I-16s
Zeros
Spitfires
SBD
Bf-109 E/F/G2
Stuka
La-5 F/N
Yak 1B/3
Ki-61
P-39
Hurri
Bf-109 G6
Ki-84
Ta-152 H
Il-10
P-38s
P-51s
A-20
Corsairs
Tempest
Il-2s
Dora
FW-190As
P-47s


while ur at it, do a B and Z rating

WTE_Galway
06-22-2009, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by JtD:
Mate, get il-2 compare. It'll give you very good answers. For what it's worth, your list is missing (all in top spots) the I-153, Gladiator, Cr.42, Ki-27 and Ki-43.


+1


Especially the CR42 versus J8A/Gladiator matchup. Historically speaking, in the North African desert the epic battles between RAF Gladiators and Italian Fiats were probably the last true T&B dogfights of the war.

Of course if we are talking online in game ... well the real life equivalent of a typical dogfight server is people trying to take Top Fuel dragsters and race them around a go cart track http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SterlingX
06-23-2009, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by JtD:
Mate, get il-2 compare. It'll give you very good answers.


I had Il-2 compare, long time ago, but to use it in this case would be hard as it doesn't tell you what the lowest speed in a hard turn is for each individual AC.


For what it's worth, your list is missing (all in top spots) the I-153, Gladiator, Cr.42, Ki-27 and Ki-43.

They are not that interesting to rate - they all turn very well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SterlingX
06-23-2009, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
while ur at it, do a B and Z rating

BnZ performance is way too subjective and pilot-dependent.

SterlingX
06-23-2009, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Find the plane that uses the lowest power % in the slowest power-on level flight.


Thx, I'll try this and see how it correlates.

BillSwagger
06-23-2009, 02:42 AM
Originally posted by SterlingX:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BillSwagger:
while ur at it, do a B and Z rating

BnZ performance is way too subjective and pilot-dependent. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How is TnB tactics any less subjective?

I would think planes that dive well, and retain energy or altitude make the better BnZ planes.
A lot of the top BnZ planes are at the bottom of your TnB list.
I think it would be an interesting correlation, because you might find a plane such as the Spitfire being decent in both rolls, where a Zero or Yak not the best for that tactic.
It might also demonstrate how each plane was intended, so people can get a perspective on how to use them.

Manu-6S
06-23-2009, 02:54 AM
Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
Especially the CR42 versus J8A/Gladiator matchup. Historically speaking, in the North African desert the epic battles between RAF Gladiators and Italian Fiats were probably the last true T&B dogfights of the war.


It's still a BnZ plane (CR42) against a TnB (Gladietor) plane since the tactic is always relative to the planes involved.

We did this fight many times.. the CR42s always win since are faster and reach higher altitude.

JtD
06-23-2009, 03:46 AM
Originally posted by SterlingX:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
Mate, get il-2 compare. It'll give you very good answers.


I had Il-2 compare, long time ago, but to use it in this case would be hard as it doesn't tell you what the lowest speed in a hard turn is for each individual AC. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You said sustained turn and that is what it gives you. The way you put it now you're just looking for the lowest power on stall speed. Which is not very useful for determining turn performance. I know that the winner in that category is the TB-3 heavy bomber.

TinyTim
06-23-2009, 03:52 AM
Originally posted by Manu-6S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
Especially the CR42 versus J8A/Gladiator matchup. Historically speaking, in the North African desert the epic battles between RAF Gladiators and Italian Fiats were probably the last true T&B dogfights of the war.


It's still a BnZ plane (CR42) against a TnB (Gladietor) plane since the tactic is always relative to the planes involved.

We did this fight many times.. the CR42s always win since are faster and reach higher altitude. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, Cr.42 indeed seems superior. I'd only add that a fixed prop pitch on Gladiator (well, J8A at least) hinders it stall speed behavior, which makes it easy for a Cr.42 to outclimb it at stall speed.

JtD
06-23-2009, 03:56 AM
Originally posted by Manu-6S:

It's still a BnZ plane (CR42) against a TnB (Gladietor) plane since the tactic is always relative to the planes involved.

We did this fight many times.. the CR42s always win since are faster and reach higher altitude.

I disagree with the proposed outcome, because the Gladiator has the advantage in turn, climb, low alt speed, firepower and durability. A decent pilot can ensure at least head ons, which favour the Gladiator already. In addition to that, the Gladiator can gain an E-advantage on the Cr.42 by dragging the fight down. It's not that the Fiat can dive a couple of thousand meters and zoom up again. This means, if the fight takes place below 3000 meters, the Gladiator will gain the upper hand. If the Fiat refuses to come down to that altitude, both go home.

TinyTim
06-23-2009, 04:00 AM
Sterling, maybe a differently, more factual phrased question may help you. "What's the smallest possible radius of a turning circle a plane can perform at lowest possible altitude?"
or, similarly phrased but with very different meaning: "What's the shortest possible time for a plane to complete a 360deg turn at lowest possible altitude?" would sound better, to me at least. Do you know exactly, what are you asking for? Turn time or turn radius? Sometimes a plane with worse turn radius can outturn an opponent simply due to better turn rate (i.e. can run arount its larger circle faster).

M_Gunz
06-23-2009, 05:17 AM
2G turn requires sqrt(2) (1.41) x slowest level speed level flyable -- radius will be larger due to higher speed.
3G turn requires sqrt(3) (1.73) x ...
4G turn requires 2 x ...

G's make you turn and speed increase widens the radius but speed increases less than change in G's.
You will complete the circle quicker with more G's however the slower turning plane with much smaller
turn radius will have a guns solution when you come around in front of him in this situation. There
are practical limits to this and not every guns solution will be effective.

SterlingX
06-23-2009, 07:58 AM
@ TiniTim &JtD

It is both radius and time, really, or, rather - the shortest time at the smallest possible radius (as opposed to the shortest time at any radius or the smallest radius regardless of time).

SterlingX
06-23-2009, 08:12 AM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SterlingX:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BillSwagger:
while ur at it, do a B and Z rating

BnZ performance is way too subjective and pilot-dependent. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How is TnB tactics any less subjective?

I would think planes that dive well, and retain energy or altitude make the better BnZ planes.
A lot of the top BnZ planes are at the bottom of your TnB list.
I think it would be an interesting correlation, because you might find a plane such as the Spitfire being decent in both rolls, where a Zero or Yak not the best for that tactic.
It might also demonstrate how each plane was intended, so people can get a perspective on how to use them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is entirely true, but difficult to relate to a real flying test. I'd rate the same airplanes like this, but, as you can see there's too much that can be argued about this arrangement.


Dora
P-47s
P-51s
FW-190As
Corsairs
Ta-152 H
Il-10
Spitfires
Bf-109s
Tempest
Ki-84
La-5 F/N
Yak 1B/3
Ki-61
P-39
A-20
P-38s
I-16s
Zeros
Hurri
Il-2s
SBD
Stuka