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XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 12:47 AM
Hi!
Anybody could help me about high speed manoevour of P-51.Mustang in FB 1.2b at high speed has incredible good working elevator. With more speed elevator don't be so less effective. Is these correct? Roll is much less effectivnes.
Anybody know how effective was airlone and elevator in P-40? In FB at speed above 400 km/h P-40 is very weak to control (roll and elevator) compared to other planes. It is near impossible to control these plane effective abot high speed.

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 12:47 AM
Hi!
Anybody could help me about high speed manoevour of P-51.Mustang in FB 1.2b at high speed has incredible good working elevator. With more speed elevator don't be so less effective. Is these correct? Roll is much less effectivnes.
Anybody know how effective was airlone and elevator in P-40? In FB at speed above 400 km/h P-40 is very weak to control (roll and elevator) compared to other planes. It is near impossible to control these plane effective abot high speed.

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 11:45 AM
Any help?

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 02:36 PM
was flying Stang on the server with you yesterday against "Sentai" planes and got shot regularly. elevator works fine but gives you little advantage in turnfight as p51 catches stall easily due to high energy bleed (some resemblance to fw190 here).

or maybe we should discuss in Polish /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif ?

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XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 03:29 PM
I think the high speed loss of roll rate in the P40 is not correct.

But then, most things about the P40 in FB are not correct....

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XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 07:43 PM
~S!

Briefly, the elevator and aileron effectivenss of the P-40 is not accurate to the real machine, The is a great deal of info posted in these forums for your reference, in the form of outside reading. In all likelihood Oleg and his team have addressed in the coming patch. One issue to keep in mind ( and this is not to start any flames in the any direction) is the complexity that Oleg and etc have been as susccessful as they have GIVEN.... the limitaton of the the PC platform. For some reason the P-40 came out as a DOG, flies more like a B-24 above 200MPH/400kph. But is handling other wise seems real close to real A/C. ( I've done some hanger flying with old WWII figher pilots over the years)

What Oleg and company have tried to duplicate is the built up of control surface loads, particular to these birds as they approached the "upper right hand " corners of their flight envelopes. ( read high speed)

P-40 Characteristic:

Light quick aileron, fairly heavy elevator, heavy rudder as speeds built up...... pilot has to re-trim the bird on all three axis with changes in airspeed over 5 MPH, unless, that is, he wanted to just hold pressure needed to keep the machine coordinated.

Depending on Model, the roll rate fell, high, 135dps, for the b & c's ( H81) at 265 MPH to 96 dps for what the model we see most often. Roll rates fell off a bit with increases in Gross Wt/empty wts in later models. But, a rate of 96 dps is very fast, if you've experienced it. FYI, the Pitts I flew for bit whilst taking acro instruction, has a ROL of 360dps, but then again the machine is designed for acro.

P-51:

Pilots loved it, easy to fly, the controls were well harmonized, but loaded up quickly with airpeed. The machine could be trimmed out through most of its flight enveloped, but in a high speed dive the elevator was a two handed afair, and rudder was heavy as well. But at its fighting speeds (275 to 335mph or so) while the controls were firm, they were very effective.

FYI, there are so many P-51's flyable, I understand Oleg has had access to a current P-51 pilot, and volumes of first hand information, so I expect this model to fairly accurately duplicated. Having said that, don't be surprised if you see some of the negatives come to the fore either.

One quirk, some ex pony drivers I've meet over time say, they describe the pony's elevator as being " as big as a venetian blind", and elevator stalls at high angles of attack were not un common. FYI, all the plane does when the elevator stalls is pitch down, kinda oscillate in pitch, until the dummy yanking on the stick quits yanking and relaxes a bit.

The one of my old glider flying buddies, flew, B's. C's and D's and '47's in WWII. When asked he said said the B & C flew the best. They had a thinner wing and fly with a lighter touch. He thought the C was best flying fighter he ever flew. He flew, 40' 47's, ponies, and checked out in spits, and a A6M2 after the war. ( another story)

Note all my speeds are MPH, you do the conversion.

Dang, this got longer than I intended. Enjoy.



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XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 01:14 AM
BPO5, my Dad, who flew all those things as well, concurs with the elevator stalls. He said the "Stang just kind of mushed outward, like we've all heard the P-38 did.

He also said the controls got heavy if you didn't keep her in trim. That was something a Pony pilot had to learn to do, work the trim wheels with the left hand as you were doing the throttle. After a while, you didn't know you were doing it. Bud Anderson talks about this as well, in his description of his zoom dogfight with the 109.

Dad also said the Mustang had the best high speed maneuverability of any prop plane he ever flew. He remembers tooling around at 400 TAS, throwing the stick over, and his head hitting the opposite side of the canopy.

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 01:20 AM
Slickun wrote:

- He also said the controls got heavy if you didn't
- keep her in trim. That was something a Pony pilot
- had to learn to do, work the trim wheels with the
- left hand as you were doing the throttle. After a
- while, you didn't know you were doing it. Bud
- Anderson talks about this as well, in his
- description of his zoom dogfight with the 109.

Very interesting! First things first.. I want to thank your dad for everything he did for our country. Next I wanted to mention that Col Kit Carson also mentions the use of trim in his high speed manovers and how easy it was to do.

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XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 01:37 AM
you right but why bash the stang? the 190s yaks ki84 zero 262 and many many other planes have more effective rudders then the p51 to stay on a yak you need combat flaps with a yak thats using none same with the dora and 190s etc etc.

it seems the only planes with heavy simulated stick pressures are the p47 p40 and hurricane. 50lb

then planes with light 20lb seem to be the la7 and 109

it seems oleg will not add them to all planes but he should reduce the hurri and p40 then. to 20 at least

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ZG77_Nagual
11-09-2003, 01:38 AM
http://www.yarchive.net/mil/p40.html

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XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 01:40 AM
http://showcase.netins.net/web/pedalplane/P51.GIF

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 08:28 AM
" elevator works fine but gives you little advantage in turnfight as p51 catches stall easily due to high energy bleed (some resemblance to fw190 here)."

Don't turnfight when flying a P51.



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As real as you want it to be.

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 11:40 AM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- you right but why bash the stang? the 190s yaks ki84
- zero 262 and many many other planes have more
- effective rudders then the p51 to stay on a yak you
- need combat flaps with a yak thats using none same
- with the dora and 190s etc etc.
-
- it seems the only planes with heavy simulated stick
- pressures are the p47 p40 and hurricane. 50lb
-
- then planes with light 20lb seem to be the la7 and
- 109
-
- it seems oleg will not add them to all planes but he
- should reduce the hurri and p40 then. to 20 at least

True, my guess is that Kwiatos has a bit of problem fighting the P51 so the natural thing to do is complain about it in the hopes this feature will be removed from the P51.

But yep, there are plenty of planes in this game with high speed controls being very good.
My bet is that Kwiatos uses those planes so he doesn't want them to be changed.

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 01:48 PM
Cappadocian_317 wrote:

-
- True, my guess is that Kwiatos has a bit of problem
- fighting the P51 so the natural thing to do is
- complain about it in the hopes this feature will be
- removed from the P51.
-
- But yep, there are plenty of planes in this game
- with high speed controls being very good.
- My bet is that Kwiatos uses those planes so he
- doesn't want them to be changed.
-

And my bet is that you're mighty right here lol! Direct hit! But the most funny thing is chances are that Kwiatos (or call him however you want, it is variable) isn't even aware of his secret agenda /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif . That's the way it goes, we are all seeking historical correctness - as long as we note it to be incorrect. Now go figure in what cases we note that... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Regards
heartc


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Message Edited on 11/09/0312:50PM by Heart_C