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View Full Version : B239 - was it really sitting duck?



XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 08:03 AM
A few facts - Wright R1820 Cyclone 1000 hp with WEP (5 min), take off weight 2135 kg, this does't look bad at all, actually it's better power/weight ratio than most others fighters including Yak 3! But in FB it seems that B239 is nothing more than sitting duck, even I16 or LaGG 3 can beat it easily, what's everyone experience with this little devil in FB?

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 08:03 AM
A few facts - Wright R1820 Cyclone 1000 hp with WEP (5 min), take off weight 2135 kg, this does't look bad at all, actually it's better power/weight ratio than most others fighters including Yak 3! But in FB it seems that B239 is nothing more than sitting duck, even I16 or LaGG 3 can beat it easily, what's everyone experience with this little devil in FB?

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 08:09 AM
I know what you mean. I read this great description in the objects screen and yet everything else seems to outrun/outturn me. It may/probably is my piloting skills, but I'm not the only one to have complained about it.

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<center><table style="filter:glow[color=#8BD8E8,strength=4)"><TD><font color="#003D76"face="americanabt">If you meet me ingame, watch the chat,
you'll find me screaming about how good
I am at stalling into the ground</font></table><table style="filter:glow[color=#7BDB4C,strength=7)"><TD><font color="#092201"face="arial">--Professional Plane Staller--</font></table></center>

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 08:26 AM
You're not flying it right. It's surprisingly lethal in FB, and you don't easily get hit either since it's so nimble.

What's bad with it is that it's not very aerodynamic, so it bleeds speed badly, accelerates poorly and has low top speed. Keep your energy up always (hint, it climbs very very well,) and you'll do very well indeed against the soviet contemporaries.
_
/Bjorn.

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 08:31 AM
swingman wrote:
- You're not flying it right. It's surprisingly lethal
- in FB, and you don't easily get hit either since
- it's so nimble.
-
- What's bad with it is that it's not very
- aerodynamic, so it bleeds speed badly, accelerates
- poorly and has low top speed. Keep your energy up
- always (hint, it climbs very very well,) and you'll
- do very well indeed against the soviet
- contemporaries.
- _
-
- /Bjorn.


But that is not the whole truth.

In 1.0 it lacks in turnrate (some seconds in 360 turn) and dive speed (about 100kmh), while its adversaries suffer in some part from overmodelling (for example I-16 dive speed).

We can see what the patch brings us, but so far fighting with I-16 is very difficult even if you know how to use it.


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 08:45 AM
The Buffalo is a great counterpart to the I16...it does really good against it. And 6 0.50 Mgs is quite an amount of weaponery for such a little bird.

<center>PATRIA Y HONOR
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XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 09:01 AM
No, it wasn't a sitting duck

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zwinu

and

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zvoyz

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 09:13 AM
cueceleches wrote:
- The Buffalo is a great counterpart to the I16...it
- does really good against it. And 6 0.50 Mgs is quite
- an amount of weaponery for such a little bird.
-

It "DID" good against I-16, not "does". BW cannot even outdive open-cockpit I-16 in FB. Even I-153 can withstand faster dive than Brewster, which is the poorest diving fighter in GAME (havent tested P.11). And it has only 4 MG's, sorry. Ammo load is also incorrect; IIRC 500 rounds on wings and 300 on fuselage guns. compared to 250 rounds in FB in all guns. I can check these figures at home if needed.

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 09:17 AM
No way, IMO

I have a very succesfull Finnish campaign ace going at the moment with full real on

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 09:20 AM
b239 is one of the bird from hell

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'It is the Courage, not the score, that counts ...' - Mohd Naqiuddin

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 09:22 AM
Classicaero wrote:
- No way, IMO
-
- I have a very succesfull Finnish campaign going
- at the moment with full real on
-

Same here /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

'Inappropriate words'

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 09:55 AM
Classicaero wrote:
- No way, IMO
-
- I have a very succesfull Finnish campaign ace going
- at the moment with full real on
-
-

Same here! Downing 3 I-16's in one mission is not unusual. I find them very evenly matched. Those 4 MG's are quite effective. Oh! and BTW it's NOT A BUFFALO!!


I'd never join a club that would have ME as a member!!.

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 10:07 AM
Try fly B239 on VOW-missions.. you are doomed /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I hope the patch will fix this.. and adds some more MG-ammo..

<center>http://koti.mbnet.fi/vipez/shots/Vipez2.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 10:13 AM
ELEM wrote:

- Same here! Downing 3 I-16's in one mission is not
- unusual. I find them very evenly matched. Those 4
- MG's are quite effective. Oh! and BTW it's NOT A
- BUFFALO!!

It is not a question about being evenly matched! Game is not about matching some plane with each other, but modelling them the way they flew.

If you think all is fine, try to fight Hurricane in your Brewster. According to Captain Hans Wind (link (http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-CaptainWindsAirCombatTacticsLecture.html)) Hurricane was:

"totally helpless against us below 3,000 meters. It is slow and very clumsy and unmanoeuvrable. Whenever you meet a Hurricane, engage it in a turn-fight, where it is totally at our mercy. It is best to shoot this plane in the forward part of the fuselage when it almost immediately bursts into flames."


He should know as he was the highest scoring Brewster ace.


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 10:25 AM
Kannaksen_hanu wrote:
- IIRC 500 rounds on wings and 300 on
- fuselage guns. compared to 250 rounds in FB in all
- guns. I can check these figures at home if needed.


200 for fuselage and 400 wings according to Lent√¬§j√¬§n N√¬§k√¬∂kulma 2. Good point!



-jippo

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 10:26 AM
Classicaero wrote:
- No way, IMO
-
- I have a very succesfull Finnish campaign ace going
- at the moment with full real on
-
-

Sheesh - I can down AI La-5FN with BW if need be. Try against not so dumb human opponent in that I-153, I-16 or Hurri and you're toast...

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 10:41 AM
Jippo01 wrote:
-
- It is not a question about being evenly matched!
- Game is not about matching some plane with each
- other, but modelling them the way they flew.
-

Did I say it was? NO! Read what I said, not what you you think you see. The B-239 and I-16 were evenly matched in RL and this is reflected well in FB because these particular a/c are quite accuratly modelled. That does not apply to ALL the a/c in FB. The Hurricane is WAY over modeled in FB and that is well known and to be corrected (allegedly) in the coming patch.

I'd never join a club that would have ME as a member!!.

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 10:53 AM
ELEM wrote:

- Did I say it was? NO! Read what I said, not what you
- you think you see. The B-239 and I-16 were evenly
- matched in RL and this is reflected well in FB
- because these particular a/c are quite accuratly
- modelled.


Try it against a human in the I-16 then.

Few points from RL Brewster pilots:
- According to Jorma Karhunen Brewster could turn with I-16 (some say it couldn't but it in any case they had similar performance, in the game it is now IIRC 14sec turn for Rata, 23sec turn for Brewster)
- Brewster is able to escape in shallow dive
- Brewster is faster

And if you want to try against other planes
- Mig-3 at low altitude has similar speed but horrible manouverability
- Yak-1, LaGG-3 and La-5 are not manouverable, but faster


It is not correct, it is a proven fact. Wait how it is in 1.1, it will be more correct.


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 11:01 AM
Jippo01 wrote:
-
- He should know as he was the highest scoring
- Brewster ace.
-

This may be the problem. We are after all gauging how a plane should perform in our hands, by how it performed in the hands of pilots such as Winds. We are not facing the same untrained rookies that he was, neither are we the great top ace that he was. Most of us here are merely pilots, facing pilots of similare skill, and in such a situation, an aircraft's strengths and weaknesses become much more noticable.

Harry Voyager

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 11:06 AM
HarryVoyager wrote:
-
- This may be the problem. We are after all gauging
- how a plane should perform in our hands, by how it
- performed in the hands of pilots such as Winds. We
- are not facing the same untrained rookies that he
- was, neither are we the great top ace that he was.
- Most of us here are merely pilots, facing pilots of
- similare skill, and in such a situation, an
- aircraft's strengths and weaknesses become much more
- noticable.


It is from his lectures to less qualified pilots on how to fight with a Brewster against various types enemy had. I suggest you check out the link, it is very nice information for virtual pilots as well.


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 11:24 AM
ELEM wrote:
- Classicaero wrote:
-- No way, IMO
--
-- I have a very succesfull Finnish campaign ace going
-- at the moment with full real on
--
--
-
- Same here! Downing 3 I-16's in one mission is not
- unusual. I find them very evenly matched. Those 4
- MG's are quite effective. Oh! and BTW it's NOT A
- BUFFALO!!
-
-

I can do such feat too; for example I keep turning slightly until I-16's have wasted all their ammo, and after this I can shoot them down easilly. So what this test tells me when I'm such an ace in campaing? B-239's FM is fine? LOL! No offence, but campaign kill-rates doesn't prove anything.

And BTW if being evenly matched tells only that things arent right. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



Message Edited on 06/24/0301:27PM by Kannaksen_hanu

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 12:00 PM
Kannaksen_hanu wrote:
-
- I can do such feat too; for example I keep turning
- slightly until I-16's have wasted all their ammo,
- and after this I can shoot them down easilly. So
- what this test tells me when I'm such an ace in
- campaing? B-239's FM is fine? LOL! No offence, but
- campaign kill-rates doesn't prove anything.
-
Quite true! But I do not use the same technique that you do. Hopeing that they run ou of ammo before they hit you is a dangerous game! Please bare in mind that I am replying to Firebirds original post in which he says...
"what's everyone experience with this little devil in FB?" I have mearly given my experiences of this little devil in FB.


I'd never join a club that would have ME as a member!!.

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 12:03 PM
B239 totally UNDERMODELLED !!!

++ 88.IAP_Manuc ++

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 12:41 PM
Well, I like flying it, and I think it looks cool. Its quite aerobatic, IMHO, and has a roll capability similar to the I-16. Very nimble, but not too quick, I get 410 cruising at see level all the time (when we air race). I can not stall the darn thing (have not yet at least, and I fly it regularly). I would suggest this plane for anyone learning how to fly.

kajr



http://63.76.89.105/IL2/images/IL2AirRacing.gif (http://63.76.89.105/IL2)

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 01:12 PM
ELEM wrote:
-
- Kannaksen_hanu wrote:
--
-- I can do such feat too; for example I keep turning
-- slightly until I-16's have wasted all their ammo,
-- and after this I can shoot them down easilly. So
-- what this test tells me when I'm such an ace in
-- campaing? B-239's FM is fine? LOL! No offence, but
-- campaign kill-rates doesn't prove anything.
--
- Quite true! But I do not use the same technique that
- you do. Hopeing that they run ou of ammo before they
- hit you is a dangerous game! Please bare in mind
- that I am replying to Firebirds original post in
- which he says...

Ok, then dont mind my game-spoiling evasion tip, (works every time over 100m) And I dont USE it either, but E-fight as long as possible, but when I-16 ion your six, things just turn out this way.

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 01:23 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the B239 and the Buffalo aren't the same airplane, despite their visual similarities

Zayets
06-24-2003, 02:07 PM
Jippo,
That was an excellent reading!Thx alot for the link. So , after reading this I should say that in FB:
-I-16 more maneuvrable than many planes -check
-shooting Rata's at dead 6 most of the time no effect -check
-Huricane speed very low - almost check
-Huricane agility very low - not at all
-La-5 climbs good,agile - check
-LaGG slow - check
-P-40 very vulnerable - check
-spitfire , not in the game yet but was considered not so agile under 3000 m

As everyone can see , Oleg matched almost 100% the reality . I will be ver interested in such compaarison with the germaan planes , that will give the full picture.

Thx again Jippo

http://www.emicad.nl/~justdoit/il2/logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 02:27 PM
BBB462cid wrote:
- Correct me if I'm wrong, but the B239 and the
- Buffalo aren't the same airplane, despite their
- visual similarities

People have been using the two names synonymously. Could someone please explain the difference between the two? I thought it was a Finnish airplane, or at least, an airplane flown by the Finnish. What does the B- in B-239 stand for? I guess not Boeing...


kajr



http://63.76.89.105/IL2/images/IL2AirRacing.gif (http://63.76.89.105/IL2)

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 02:41 PM
B=Brewster.
Read this:-

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f2a_3.html

I'd never join a club that would have ME as a member!!.

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 02:42 PM
I think you'll find that the B in B 239 is for Brewster Aircraft Company, they are the guys that built it, and I'm sure you'll find if you do some research that the B239 is in fact a Brewster Buffalo, so everything is correect in game, well everything as far as the Brewster is concerned

;-)

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 03:15 PM
Well, according to the link given, they were export versions of the Buffalo, de-navalized, with an export approved engine, that the Finns further modified. This jibes well with what my understanding of the aircraft was. Removal of the naval equipment alone should quantify this as something other than a Buffalo.


Seems like a case of the P-400 vs. the P-39 to me: the B239 and the F2A Buffalo are not the same aircraft. Very similar ones, but not the same. Another example: is an A-36 Apache a P-51 Mustang? Clearly not. I think the same set of precedents makes the B239 and the F2A different airplanes.

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 05:49 PM
Everyone should also check virtualpilots history sections. There are many veteran interviews. It gives a really good look what it was really like to fly with these things against those.

Click here for many interesting tales:
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 06:55 PM
In my flightsim experience, the B-239 fares quite well against early war Soviet planes. In the Finnish campaign, I have been able to handle the I-153s, I-16s, Mig 3s, Lagg 3s, and early Yaks without too much trouble. It's not necessarily better than these planes, but it is at least as manueverable as any but the I-153 and the I-16 is a particularly easy kill. The B-239 is not very fast however, and it seems to loose speed very quickly in a turning engagement and it accelerates very poorly.

Regarding the B-239/F2A Buffalo conundrum, they are visually virtually identical products of the US Brewster Aircraft Corporation. My understanding is that "B-239" is the company's own designation of the plane and "F2A" is the US Navy's designation of their shipborn version. I had always believed the name "Buffalo" could be used with either. There are differences in engine capability and armor between the F2A and the Finnish-used B-239s. I believe the plane may have also been licence-built in Finland like the Fokker D-XXI, but I'm not sure about that. I do know the Finns tinkered alot with their B-239's to keep them combat-capable long after the F2A (which was dead meat for a Zero-Sen) was removed from frontline US Navy service in 1942.

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 07:08 PM
zoomar wrote:
- In my flightsim experience, the B-239 fares quite
- well against early war Soviet planes. In the
- Finnish campaign, I have been able to handle the
- I-153s, I-16s, Mig 3s, Lagg 3s, and early Yaks
- without too much trouble. It's not necessarily
- better than these planes, but it is at least as
- manueverable as any but the I-153 and the I-16 is a
- particularly easy kill. The B-239 is not very fast
- however, and it seems to loose speed very quickly in
- a turning engagement and it accelerates very poorly.

This is because AI pilots are not particularly good in finish campaign, their skill level is mainly "novice". Plane performance can best be measured online human vs. human.

- Regarding the B-239/F2A Buffalo conundrum, they are
- visually virtually identical products of the US
- Brewster Aircraft Corporation. My understanding is
- that "B-239" is the company's own designation of the
- plane and "F2A" is the US Navy's designation of
- their shipborn version. I had always believed the
- name "Buffalo" could be used with either. There are
- differences in engine capability and armor between
- the F2A and the Finnish-used B-239s. I believe the
- plane may have also been licence-built in Finland
- like the Fokker D-XXI, but I'm not sure about that.
- I do know the Finns tinkered alot with their B-239's
- to keep them combat-capable long after the F2A
- (which was dead meat for a Zero-Sen) was removed
- from frontline US Navy service in 1942.

Finland bought de-navalized F2A-1 version, while US Navy AFAIK used later F2A-2 and F2A-3 versions with greater range and power, but also much added weight and worse performance. USN fared badly also because of pilot quality vs Japanese early in the war.

De-navalization meant getting rid of carrier equipment(arrestor hook, etc...), and also USN equipment like guns, sights and instruments were removed.

Finnish of course installed new instruments, weapons and sights, but also added pilot back armor which then again added some weight.

So basically B-239 performance is more or less equal to USN F2A-1.


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 01:21 AM
Thanks for filling the blanks for me about the B-239/F2A relationship, Jippo. One thing, however, While online play offers one way to compare the capabilities of different planes, how do you know online opponents have equal skills. Quite frankly, I would consider my own abilities barely better than "novice", so perhaps matching me against a bunch of poorly trained and unmotivated Soviet hacks in the Finnish campaign is as good a measure than anything else.

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 03:33 AM
Yea and after they removed a lot of stuff it was quite a bit lighter than the original Naval Buffalo version. Really the same plane in a way, just modified, lighter with a different name. So was it really a Buffalo? Both yes and no.

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 03:58 AM
Who cares wether it was Buffalo or not? It still has the best kill/loss ration (38:1) in whole 2nd world war. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.danford.net/faf.htm

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 04:02 AM
Umm...correct me. What was actually Brewster kill ratio? Some resources tell that it was 38:1, some 26:1 some 32:1...


Here's another link for those who are interested.
http://www.wwiitech.net/main/usa/aircraft/brewsterf2abuffalo/#Model%20239:%20Finland