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rob.davies2014
07-29-2011, 02:59 AM
After reading Arcadia I started thinking about the determined universe and I was wondering if anyone knew for sure whether or not the future that the Apple shows to it's beholders is set or changeable.
e.g. when Ezio sees that Cesare will break free from prison in the Apple, it becomes so.
Also, the fact that Those Who Came Before knew all those years ago how events would transpire (and so far they have according to whatever plan they have)implies that the fates are determined.
If this is so, then that makes the Assassins' fight redundant. How can they achieve free will if the course of our lives has already been decided?

LightRey
07-29-2011, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by RussellSparrow:
After reading Arcadia I started thinking about the determined universe and I was wondering if anyone knew for sure whether or not the future that the Apple shows to it's beholders is set or changeable.
e.g. when Ezio sees that Cesare will break free from prison in the Apple, it becomes so.
Also, the fact that Those Who Came Before knew all those years ago how events would transpire (and so far they have according to whatever plan they have)implies that the fates are determined.
If this is so, then that makes the Assassins' fight redundant. How can they achieve free will if the course of our lives has already been decided?
I'm pretty sure it's changeable. From what I've heard (I can't confirm this myself) the apple is able to use statistics to determine with a lot of accuracy what the future holds. However, it's not 100% accurate.

RebeccaLH
07-29-2011, 11:09 AM
The title was just a great reminder of my exam question haha.
' How can they achieve free will if the course of our lives has already been decided?'

Well mabye they know the course of our lives but we can still choose our actions but they are already known, TWCB are omniscient?

LightRey
07-29-2011, 11:37 AM
How can they achieve free will if the course of our lives has already been decided?
Well, let's approach this one more philosophically. Does one have to exclude the other?

Mutley_Rulz
07-29-2011, 03:26 PM
This is gonna be a long discussion...

I'd say the choices are made by us, and TWCB know these through whatever omniscience. Their knowing of this doesn't remove the free will, as the choice is our own, and they have simply predicted it before it happened.

Oh, and, just a little transcript I think is relevant from the Matrix..

The Oracle: I'd ask you to sit down, but you're not going to anyway. And don't worry about the vase.
Neo: What vase?
[Neo knocks a vase to the floor]
The Oracle: That vase.
Neo: I'm sorry.
The Oracle: I said don't worry about it. I'll get one of my kids to fix it.
Neo: How did you know?
The Oracle: What's really going to bake your noodle later on is, would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything.

LightRey
07-29-2011, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by Mutley_Rulz:
This is gonna be a long discussion...

I'd say the choices are made by us, and TWCB know these through whatever omniscience. Their knowing of this doesn't remove the free will, as the choice is our own, and they have simply predicted it before it happened.

Oh, and, just a little transcript I think is relevant from the Matrix..

The Oracle: I'd ask you to sit down, but you're not going to anyway. And don't worry about the vase.
Neo: What vase?
[Neo knocks a vase to the floor]
The Oracle: That vase.
Neo: I'm sorry.
The Oracle: I said don't worry about it. I'll get one of my kids to fix it.
Neo: How did you know?
The Oracle: What's really going to bake your noodle later on is, would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything.
haha. Exactly. One must wonder what exactly it is that makes a will "free" before stating that something would prevent such a thing.

rob.davies2014
07-29-2011, 05:18 PM
I suppose free will is still free will even if the actions of the free-willed man can be predicted by a superiorly intelligent third party.
Those who Came Beofre have got a pretty good idea of whay's going to happen and so far it has,
Not only have they predicted events they've also cntrlled them, robbing the modern day Assassin's of their free will.

Poodle_of_Doom
07-29-2011, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by RussellSparrow:
I suppose free will is still free will even if the actions of the free-willed man can be predicted by a superiorly intelligent third party.
Those who Came Beofre have got a pretty good idea of whay's going to happen and so far it has,
Not only have they predicted events they've also cntrlled them, robbing the modern day Assassin's of their free will.

I view free will the same way here that I do religiously. I see it as the following:

Free will is the ability to choose. Not to have the choices made. God, omnipotent, knows not what we will do, based upon our free will, but everything we can do, and every possible outcome. And from there, every possible choice, and every possible outcome. Thus it continues this way forever. There is no determination. There is no free will. Only choice.

Dag_B
07-30-2011, 04:38 AM
Free will is pretty interesting especially when asked whether we do our decisions or our brain. And when it's our brain is it still free will or not?

When you walk most time we do not think about our steps, we know where to go and we do just walk. There is no active decision unless there is something unexpected. And even then it's often no big active process to not step on a unexpected stone in our way.
We have a lot of things in our live where we do not think actively about the possibilities. Once you drive your car for a few years you just drive, when you are a beginner you mostly think about every step like "Ok, now release the brake and give a little bit more gas. Hm maybe a little bit more" and stuff.
So our brain is used to make our decisions without even asking if that would be ok. ^^

And some people say even when it comes to bigger decisions our brains finds the best answer just before we start to wonder.
The question there is whether or not it's possible to come to another conclusion. Maybe even when we thing about stuff for days and chance our minds a few times we do always come to the conclusion our brain made within seconds?
And if it's not possible, is it free will as we feel like we looked about all possibilities? Or are we just sklaves from our brain which makes us feel like we can decide things without really giving us this freedom? But then again, isn't it my decision when it was made by my own brain?


So if all decisions are made by the brain without actively thinking, maybe TWCB has formulas to determine how a brain makes it's decisions. Those must be complex as the decisions of our brains are directly affected by previous experiences, decisions and actual needs. When I am hungry it's more likely to got to the fridge than staying on my computer (well at least it should be my dear gameaddicts :P ^^ ). This is a thing most of us could be able to predict. And when you get more and more hungry it becomes more and more likely that you really leave your computer to eat something. If I am not hungry at all I wouldn't leave my compute to go to the fridge.
Maybe it's really possible to predict more complex decisions too?

LightRey
07-30-2011, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by Dag_B:
Free will is pretty interesting especially when asked whether we do our decisions or our brain. And when it's our brain is it still free will or not?

When you walk most time we do not think about our steps, we know where to go and we do just walk. There is no active decision unless there is something unexpected. And even then it's often no big active process to not step on a unexpected stone in our way.
We have a lot of things in our live where we do not think actively about the possibilities. Once you drive your car for a few years you just drive, when you are a beginner you mostly think about every step like "Ok, now release the brake and give a little bit more gas. Hm maybe a little bit more" and stuff.
So our brain is used to make our decisions without even asking if that would be ok. ^^

And some people say even when it comes to bigger decisions our brains finds the best answer just before we start to wonder.
The question there is whether or not it's possible to come to another conclusion. Maybe even when we thing about stuff for days and chance our minds a few times we do always come to the conclusion our brain made within seconds?
And if it's not possible, is it free will as we feel like we looked about all possibilities? Or are we just sklaves from our brain which makes us feel like we can decide things without really giving us this freedom? But then again, isn't it my decision when it was made by my own brain?


So if all decisions are made by the brain without actively thinking, maybe TWCB has formulas to determine how a brain makes it's decisions. Those must be complex as the decisions of our brains are directly affected by previous experiences, decisions and actual needs. When I am hungry it's more likely to got to the fridge than staying on my computer (well at least it should be my dear gameaddicts :P ^^ ). This is a thing most of us could be able to predict. And when you get more and more hungry it becomes more and more likely that you really leave your computer to eat something. If I am not hungry at all I wouldn't leave my compute to go to the fridge.
Maybe it's really possible to predict more complex decisions too?
You make a good point. However, I think you make the mistake of looking at our conscious and subconscious separately, when in fact they are both part of the same whole. I think there are only a few things that are actually pre-programmed in our mind's subconscious and even then the way we interpret the signals coming from these parts can be changed by our conscious.
I don't think we can actively make conscious decisions when we are confronted with a certain situation, unless our subconscious doesn't have an immediate answer. However, I'm quite convinced that our conscious can "simulate" problems. It then tries to find solutions, which it then "programs" into the subconscious, so that it can act quickly when we are confronted with similar, if not identical, problems.

Killer-Me99
07-31-2011, 02:58 AM
Originally posted by RussellSparrow:
After reading Arcadia I started thinking about the determined universe and I was wondering if anyone knew for sure whether or not the future that the Apple shows to it's beholders is set or changeable.
e.g. when Ezio sees that Cesare will break free from prison in the Apple, it becomes so.
Also, the fact that Those Who Came Before knew all those years ago how events would transpire (and so far they have according to whatever plan they have)implies that the fates are determined.
If this is so, then that makes the Assassins' fight redundant. How can they achieve free will if the course of our lives has already been decided?

Hahaha I like your thinking... this is actually one of the reasons why religious books fail to make any sense, specially the Quran.

FiskMunk
07-31-2011, 03:31 AM
Originally posted by Killer-Me99:
Hahaha I like your thinking... this is actually one of the reasons why religious books fail to make any sense, specially the Quran.

What do you mean?

Poodle_of_Doom
07-31-2011, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by FiskMunk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Killer-Me99:
Hahaha I like your thinking... this is actually one of the reasons why religious books fail to make any sense, specially the Quran.

What do you mean? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think he's referencing the fact that some people, not just of Islamic faith, subject themselves to God/Allah, and His will,... dedicating every facet of their lives to the ideas and principals of their religion. This rules out free will.

That said, I think it depends on the person.

FiskMunk
07-31-2011, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by Poodle_of_Doom:
I think he's referencing the fact that some people, not just of Islamic faith, subject themselves to God/Allah, and His will,... dedicating every facet of their lives to the ideas and principals of their religion. This rules out free will.

That said, I think it depends on the person.

I'm pretty damn sure it's entirely individual. Though we can never be sure, can we? But no, I don't think every single religious person thinks in the same way, either.

Ah well, me, I think that there's no such thing as free will, though it depends entirely on how you define it.

Pick something up from your desk, and then put it back down. Could events have transpired in any other way? In my opinion: Nope. It happened, and so it is the only thing that could have happened. I like to think of it as an infinite line of dominoes, with each and every piece toppling over an unlimited number of other dominoes, followed by the same thing again and again and again... Everything is set in stone.

At least in this existence.

LightRey
07-31-2011, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by FiskMunk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Poodle_of_Doom:
I think he's referencing the fact that some people, not just of Islamic faith, subject themselves to God/Allah, and His will,... dedicating every facet of their lives to the ideas and principals of their religion. This rules out free will.

That said, I think it depends on the person.

I'm pretty damn sure it's entirely individual. Though we can never be sure, can we? But no, I don't think every single religious person thinks in the same way, either.

Ah well, me, I think that there's no such thing as free will, though it depends entirely on how you define it.

Pick something up from your desk, and then put it back down. Could events have transpired in any other way? In my opinion: Nope. It happened, and so it is the only thing that could have happened. I like to think of it as an infinite line of dominoes, with each and every piece toppling over an unlimited number of other dominoes, followed by the same thing again and again and again... Everything is set in stone.

At least in this existence. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well if we want to believe quantum mechanics it could have happened in a huge number of different ways.

Poodle_of_Doom
07-31-2011, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FiskMunk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Poodle_of_Doom:
I think he's referencing the fact that some people, not just of Islamic faith, subject themselves to God/Allah, and His will,... dedicating every facet of their lives to the ideas and principals of their religion. This rules out free will.

That said, I think it depends on the person.

I'm pretty damn sure it's entirely individual. Though we can never be sure, can we? But no, I don't think every single religious person thinks in the same way, either.

Ah well, me, I think that there's no such thing as free will, though it depends entirely on how you define it.

Pick something up from your desk, and then put it back down. Could events have transpired in any other way? In my opinion: Nope. It happened, and so it is the only thing that could have happened. I like to think of it as an infinite line of dominoes, with each and every piece toppling over an unlimited number of other dominoes, followed by the same thing again and again and again... Everything is set in stone.

At least in this existence. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well if we want to believe quantum mechanics it could have happened in a huge number of different ways. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem with theory is just that. It's theory, not fact.

LightRey
07-31-2011, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Poodle_of_Doom:
The problem with theory is just that. It's theory, not fact.
Well quantum mechanics is a theory that's quite well supported by experimental data. It's also the most accepted theory of physics out there. I'm not saying it's true, but it's the best theory we have and it's a damn good one too.
but I was half kidding really. I just wanted to say it's out there and it disagrees.

Serrachio
07-31-2011, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Poodle_of_Doom:
The problem with theory is just that. It's theory, not fact.
Well quantum mechanics is a theory that's quite well supported by experimental data. It's also the most accepted theory of physics out there. I'm not saying it's true, but it's the best theory we have and it's a damn good one too.
but I was half kidding really. I just wanted to say it's out there and it disagrees. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess you could say it fits with the Occam's Razor philosophy.

LightRey
07-31-2011, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by Serrachio:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Poodle_of_Doom:
The problem with theory is just that. It's theory, not fact.
Well quantum mechanics is a theory that's quite well supported by experimental data. It's also the most accepted theory of physics out there. I'm not saying it's true, but it's the best theory we have and it's a damn good one too.
but I was half kidding really. I just wanted to say it's out there and it disagrees. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess you could say it fits with the Occam's Razor philosophy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Exactly http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif