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View Full Version : Was the BF109 original design a Tupolev one?



XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 01:26 PM
Hi guys
The whole story sounds strange but never the less is it truth that:
During the year 1933 or 1934 in a corse of a german army deligation visit in the USSR,Tupolev was forced by politicians to give the germans a plane design of his that wasn't accepted by the authorities because it was "bad".all that as a token of friendship(but useless one).
When the BF109 and its features appeard,the plane was recognized by the russians and Tupolev was put in the slammer for helping the germans.
That's what I'v heard from a asane russian senior immigrant that was a transport planes test pilot in the USSR.
Please inlight
Cheers
gprr

XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 01:26 PM
Hi guys
The whole story sounds strange but never the less is it truth that:
During the year 1933 or 1934 in a corse of a german army deligation visit in the USSR,Tupolev was forced by politicians to give the germans a plane design of his that wasn't accepted by the authorities because it was "bad".all that as a token of friendship(but useless one).
When the BF109 and its features appeard,the plane was recognized by the russians and Tupolev was put in the slammer for helping the germans.
That's what I'v heard from a asane russian senior immigrant that was a transport planes test pilot in the USSR.
Please inlight
Cheers
gprr

XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 01:28 PM
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Willy Messerschmitt's biography didn't mention that fact.

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XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 01:43 PM
it would be nice, if you could say, where you have read that, or is your source your talkpartner only ?
is that a sundaymorning joke ? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


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Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

Message Edited on 10/12/0312:45PM by Boandlgramer

XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 01:48 PM
could be true :\

XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 02:02 PM
p1ngu666 wrote:
- could be true :\

yes , indeed it could .

could it be, that Boeing has stolen blueprints in russia to built the b29 ? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif of course .



http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

Message Edited on 10/12/0301:03PM by Boandlgramer

XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 02:55 PM
More likely, the Ruskies used He100 for developing Yak3...

XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 03:10 PM
I thought it was the Bf 110.........

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XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 03:19 PM
Hi guys
Sorry,it's the only information I have and it's not written.I hoped you will help me clarify this.
But I understand that some russias do belive so,it could be only folk story.
Thanks
gprr

XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 03:26 PM
In October 1936 Andrei Tupolev was arrested for "secretively ,and treasonably,giving the design of the Messerschmitt Bf110 to the Germans."

Apparantly lots of designers found themselves working from cells at this time either because of failings in their previous work or trumped up charges like this.

S!

gprr wrote:
- Hi guys
- The whole story sounds strange but never the less is
- it truth that:
- During the year 1933 or 1934 in a corse of a german
- army deligation visit in the USSR,Tupolev was forced
- by politicians to give the germans a plane design of
- his that wasn't accepted by the authorities because
- it was "bad".all that as a token of friendship(but
- useless one).
- When the BF109 and its features appeard,the plane
- was recognized by the russians and Tupolev was put
- in the slammer for helping the germans.
- That's what I'v heard from a asane russian senior
- immigrant that was a transport planes test pilot in
- the USSR.
- Please inlight
- Cheers
- gprr
-
-

XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 03:37 PM
All German Planes where copys of Soviet Airplanes.
The lucky thing here was that they became only the outdated designs /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

It´s also well known that the highest scoring German Ace Erich Hartmann(35 real kills) sayed as he was asked by Goering what he need to archive air superiority over the Russian front was: "Give me a Squadron of Lagg3!"

Be sure!

XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 03:43 PM
fact is, germany only began the war to get the other nations aircraft because their planes were so cr'ppy, i tell you.

...
i've heard about the 110 having russian origins, but i dont really believe it. it looks too typical "messerschmitty". and then, why didnt the russians build a plane looking very close to it, at least one prototype?

XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 03:51 PM
Quick, find some russian documents that show the fw190 was really a stolen russian design.

Then the foward view will magically improve!

XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 04:24 PM
Awwww, c'mon... that´s RIDICULOUS!

Just look at the design of the Bf109. Does it LOOK Russian? NO, it`s got "Made in Germany" written all over it... Just compare early Russian aircraft designs... They have those absolutely typical Russian "quirks"... The TB-3 is a Russian thoroughbread, one look and you just KNOW it´s got CCCP somewhere on it.

Russian airplanes seem more "bulgy" overall, it´s like they gathered whatever they could get their hands on to build a plane with as little resources as could be gathered. I might be going too far here, but the Russian mentality (especially before and during WWII) is more in tune with "GET IT TO FLY" than "MAKE IT LOOK PRETTY". Germans, on the other hand would say "ZERE ISS NO PRROBLEM MEKING IT FLY, BUT VE VILL PUT EXTRA ATTENTION INTO MAKING IT RATIONAL"

Just like British aircraft share that "special something" that makes you recognize them as being British (Hurricane, Spitfire, etc. etc. (don´t want to go into details)), Italian aircraft have "a thing" that makes them unmistakably Italian. The British made "elegant" aircraft, as if having a Rolls-Royce engine meant the aircraft had to look like one from the outside.

What you´re saying just doesn´t sound right... it does not, not at all...

The Bf109 is a typical German aircraft. Just look at the layout of them. The numbered sections on the fuselage, the absence of "unnecessary" panel lines... You´ve got to admit it, it´s the "Volkswagen" among airplanes, uncomplicated, cleaned-up, rationalized and "modular". Much like the way Mercedes-Benz cars have that distinctive "Mercedes-Benz-look".



GreyBeast_P39

XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 04:52 PM
Agree, the 109 just looks totally Teutonic, screaming Wagner at you and running on Bavarian lager. The only similarities with Russian designs is that it was a low wing cantalever monoplane single seat single engined fighter with cowling/engine mounted weapons.

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XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 04:56 PM
Don't make me laugh!! We are supposed to believe that the same people who were churning out designs like the I-15,
I-153 and I-16 in the same time period, were capable of coming up with a design like the 109??? Muahahahahahahaha!!!

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XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 05:10 PM
I thought the Bf-109 was developed from the Bf-108?

XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 06:14 PM
Dash_C. wrote:
- I thought the Bf-109 was developed from the Bf-108?
-
-

dont think so.
develop a high performance fighter out of a trainer/traveling aircraft? and both planes dont have very much similaries.

XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 07:42 PM
Dash_C. wrote:
- I thought the Bf-109 was developed from the Bf-108?

Not exactly. They were under design at the same time and yes they shared many many things.

---> http://www.vectorsite.net/avbf1091.html

Worse, the first Bf108A was a racer, and a popular one. The poster above me is posting about the 4 seat Bf108B which also had military uses beyond training. Probably every German civvie aircraft at the time had military thinking behind it cos of the then recently dumped Versaille Treaty.


mortoma ::
-- We are supposed to believe that the same people who were
-- churning out designs like the I-15, I-153, and I-16 in
-- the same time period, were capable of coming up with a design like the 109???

With exception of I~153, these were earlier designs than Fb109. I~15 much earlier indeed.

Message Edited on 10/12/0306:54PM by LEXX_Luthor

XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 09:12 PM
BF109 It cannot be russian design; it overheats and its engine is vulnerable.

XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 10:15 PM
better read this. It's about the German influence to Russian prewar a/c designs./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


http://www.aviapress.com/book/oth/oth013/oth013.jpg




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XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 10:21 PM
lol out of anyone russia stole the most designs, german british and US. get your facts straight

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Buzz_25th
10-12-2003, 10:43 PM
Could be the Germans got their ideas for the Fw190 radial from the Pratt and Whitney engine../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif









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XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 10:49 PM
The Bayerische Motroen Werke (BMW) based in Munich, were manufacturing Pratt and Whitney radials under license in the 1930's and used this experience to develop its own twin row engine. Despite this, it can be considered an original design incorporating fuel injection and other German features.



Also the Russian engine Ash-82-Series (La-5 to La-7) is a copy of the American P&W. Not sure which type.



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XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 10:52 PM
Aha many people still don´t belive!! unbelievably!

Here the proof:
I hope it is enough for the people who still think that Germans were able to produce a Airplane on their own!

http://test.equitatura.de/Test/Hartmann.jpg


After this Goering meet the Fuhrer:

http://test.equitatura.de/Test/Hitler_Goering.jpg


In my option these Facts are stone proof

XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 11:16 PM
-- In my option these Facts are stone proof

That, and the first Fb109s had to use British engines. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Well, okay all I~16s had to use USA engines.


slugfest maximus

XyZspineZyX
10-13-2003, 02:22 AM
i dont think u can say that German a/c we're a crap..

if they we're, Hitler would never be able to do that...

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XyZspineZyX
10-13-2003, 03:00 AM
Tupolev was arrested and accused of 'leaking' the basis for the design of the 109, but this was just classic Stalin paranoia; totally unfounded.

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XyZspineZyX
10-13-2003, 04:21 AM
Dude, the fact is that the yankees copied the Me-109 and made the P51....thats why the p51 behaves like a Me109 with supercritical wings copied from the PE-8..he he

and the FW 190 was designed by space invaders that wanted the German pilots not to be able to see around the nose cowling, giving the Sowjets the advantage of the "wonder woman" view and fall by the thousands under jerry guns.

Elvis told me he was Stalin too, and my dog speaks...anybody has some aluminum foil to make me a hat?....they are listening......

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XyZspineZyX
10-13-2003, 06:43 AM
Hmm, wasn't the Concorde also a stolen Tupolev design /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


This game has taught us that Soviets had best planes of the war, although they are still ugly...

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XyZspineZyX
10-13-2003, 06:49 AM
It only failed because they couldn't get their hands on wunnerwood, so were forced to use metals.

XyZspineZyX
10-13-2003, 07:33 AM
They got lucky and found some wood for the Fb109 in 1944.



Ah, wood. You don't see much of that around here anymore. Go ahead, give the gal a kidney.
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Message Edited on 10/13/0306:35AM by LEXX_Luthor

XyZspineZyX
10-13-2003, 02:57 PM
Eventhough Mr. Stalin and his fellows accused Tupolev for doing something it DOESNT NECESSARILY MAKE IT SO.

In future - Include your sources for proper discussion.

Gave design - wrong; he was accused of giving
109? - wrong; it was 110
1938 - wrong; it was 1937

If you compare pe-2 and 110 you can find similarities which might lead to suspect that they are from the same prototype design. But i dont know about this. Anyone with proper info ?

Besides - 1920 and early 1930 i could imagine that aircraft designers kept in touch like the physicists; Bohr, Einstein, Teller, Feinmann, etc.


http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Aerospace/Tupulov/Aero59.htm

"The late 1930s was the time of Stalinist terror, when a whole nation practically lived in fear of arrest. Aviation was among the hardest hit areas in Soviet science and technology. In October 1937, the Soviet secret police arrested Tupolev (and many other important aviation designers) on the doubtful charge of selling secrets to the Nazis. Tupolev and many of his associates were carted off to the infamous Lubyanka prison where they were forced to sign false confessions. Not long after, with an impending war on the horizon, Joseph Stalin realized that he could not do without his aviation designers. In late 1938, the Soviet leader authorized the creation of a special prison camp in the Bolshevo suburb of Moscow to develop new bombers for the Soviet military. Almost all of the country's major aviation designers were part of this prison organization. As prisoners of the state, these talented engineers had no right to a name and were not permitted to sign their design drawings. Each designer merely had a rubber stamp with a number on it. Secret police guards constantly followed the engineers around workshops during their daily work.
"

http://www.xs4all.nl/~fbonne/warbirds/ww2htmls/petlpe2.html

"In 1937 Petlyakov was arrested, possibly in relation to Tupolev's similar arrest for allegedly selling the design of the VI-100 fighter to the Germans for transformation into the Messerschmitt Bf 110 heavy fighter"


More links:

http://www.airspacemag.com/ASM/Mag/Index/2001/FM/TU-4.html

XyZspineZyX
10-13-2003, 04:23 PM
OMg... what a goofy thread, the Germans didnt copy anyone in making the 109 or 190... silly gooses... also, Col Kurtz.. Hartman only 35 really kills? ya ok... dude shot down double figures in single missions and they are all proven and documented... and hartman saying he wanted laggs? not true, he never said that... you might have your stuff mixed with galland saying he wanted spits..

XyZspineZyX
10-13-2003, 04:48 PM
MGallun wrote:
- OMg... what a goofy thread, the Germans didnt copy
- anyone in making the 109 or 190... silly gooses...
- also, Col Kurtz.. Hartman only 35 really kills? ya
- ok... dude shot down double figures in single
- missions and they are all proven and documented...
- and hartman saying he wanted laggs? not true, he
- never said that... you might have your stuff mixed
- with galland saying he wanted spits..

No you is wrong!

Again here the proof......

http://test.equitatura.de/Test/Hartmann.jpg


after this Goering meet Hitler:

http://test.equitatura.de/Test/Hitler_Goering.jpg


Now you have it black on white and still dont belive?

XyZspineZyX
10-13-2003, 05:30 PM
LOL... ok ...