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XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 01:14 AM
Hi there!

I was just surfing in the net and I found this 2 maneuvers. I couldnâ´t perform them in FB, I followed the instructions in the drawings and the only thing I get is a spin with the nose up . . .

I tried both of them in a FW.

Sliceback:
http://jackly.cpgl.net/il2/tech/doc_8_1.gif



And pitchback:
http://fb.samren.com/Articleimg/11-1.gif


Also I found this text of a person called "DocDoom", explaining the "Sliceback":

"Have plenty of smash (airspeed) which is always wise in an Fw190 (or P-47 or F4U etc.) and pull up into what might be considered the initial stages of a high yo-yo ... a climbing turn, not too steep although in some circumstances (the need to bleed speed that would otherwise overshoot you too far beyond your target is a good example) you might want to be steep here ... and hold the rudder over in "top rudder" position, this will slew your nose UP and you'll be climbing a little sideways to your real flightpath.
In other words, your nose will be HIGHER than your real vector indicates, so in a climbing LEFT turn you hold down RIGHT rudder in the climbing turn, or vice versa.
This is how a rally driver approaches a turn on dirt where he is going to "flick" the car around the apex, shortening the corner. He sets the car up going RIGHT on entry to a LEFT turn so he can "flick" it around the apex violently, rather than going smoothly around the radius of the corner.
So, you are climbing to the left, holding down right rudder to have your nose pointing higher than your climbing turn. You are skidding the plane a little as you climb in the turn, away from the direction you are going to turn in. This may seem un-natural (and does) to a lot of pilots, because it is the opposite of your instincts, ie: turning INTO the turn not away from it. The Barrel Roll Attack is the same, it is an un-natural set-up but that is why it works so well. As you appraoch the "apex" of the climbiung turn, where you are going to turn into and come down the other side, much like the rally car steering back into the corner from the initial set-up to the wrong side ... you mash "bottom rudder" and pull down, violently skidding the plane around the bottom or inside wingtip in a sort of "flick spin" for a breif moment, and what you have is a plane that was climbing (in this example) to the left, its nose held high by opposite (top) rudder ... when the time comes to go down from the highest point of the yo-yo, the apex or "corner" as it were, you throw in rudder to the complete opposite side (into the turn now) and pull the plane down into the descent side of the turn, and because of your rudder input changing sides violently, and timed to match you pulling the plane around with the ailerons slightly ... you "spin" the plane around the inside (down side) wingtip ... which is what a rally driver does when he "flicks" the car around the apex having set it up pointing the wrong way to the turn at the entry point. He'll do a full blown slide around the apex and exit going damn near straight after the "flick around". This is what you're doing with your airplane but in 3 dimensions not 2 like the rally driver.
You have a vertical element (the 3rd dimension) where the rally driver has only 2 being wholly in the horizontal plane of manourvre."


I followed carefully the steps and this still dont working for me /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Couple of questions:
Anybody can actually do this maneuvers?
Is there anything more to do?
doesnâ´t this work for the FB's FM?
Is there any "hint" for this?

Thanks and sorry for my english.

Kuervito

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 01:14 AM
Hi there!

I was just surfing in the net and I found this 2 maneuvers. I couldnâ´t perform them in FB, I followed the instructions in the drawings and the only thing I get is a spin with the nose up . . .

I tried both of them in a FW.

Sliceback:
http://jackly.cpgl.net/il2/tech/doc_8_1.gif



And pitchback:
http://fb.samren.com/Articleimg/11-1.gif


Also I found this text of a person called "DocDoom", explaining the "Sliceback":

"Have plenty of smash (airspeed) which is always wise in an Fw190 (or P-47 or F4U etc.) and pull up into what might be considered the initial stages of a high yo-yo ... a climbing turn, not too steep although in some circumstances (the need to bleed speed that would otherwise overshoot you too far beyond your target is a good example) you might want to be steep here ... and hold the rudder over in "top rudder" position, this will slew your nose UP and you'll be climbing a little sideways to your real flightpath.
In other words, your nose will be HIGHER than your real vector indicates, so in a climbing LEFT turn you hold down RIGHT rudder in the climbing turn, or vice versa.
This is how a rally driver approaches a turn on dirt where he is going to "flick" the car around the apex, shortening the corner. He sets the car up going RIGHT on entry to a LEFT turn so he can "flick" it around the apex violently, rather than going smoothly around the radius of the corner.
So, you are climbing to the left, holding down right rudder to have your nose pointing higher than your climbing turn. You are skidding the plane a little as you climb in the turn, away from the direction you are going to turn in. This may seem un-natural (and does) to a lot of pilots, because it is the opposite of your instincts, ie: turning INTO the turn not away from it. The Barrel Roll Attack is the same, it is an un-natural set-up but that is why it works so well. As you appraoch the "apex" of the climbiung turn, where you are going to turn into and come down the other side, much like the rally car steering back into the corner from the initial set-up to the wrong side ... you mash "bottom rudder" and pull down, violently skidding the plane around the bottom or inside wingtip in a sort of "flick spin" for a breif moment, and what you have is a plane that was climbing (in this example) to the left, its nose held high by opposite (top) rudder ... when the time comes to go down from the highest point of the yo-yo, the apex or "corner" as it were, you throw in rudder to the complete opposite side (into the turn now) and pull the plane down into the descent side of the turn, and because of your rudder input changing sides violently, and timed to match you pulling the plane around with the ailerons slightly ... you "spin" the plane around the inside (down side) wingtip ... which is what a rally driver does when he "flicks" the car around the apex having set it up pointing the wrong way to the turn at the entry point. He'll do a full blown slide around the apex and exit going damn near straight after the "flick around". This is what you're doing with your airplane but in 3 dimensions not 2 like the rally driver.
You have a vertical element (the 3rd dimension) where the rally driver has only 2 being wholly in the horizontal plane of manourvre."


I followed carefully the steps and this still dont working for me /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Couple of questions:
Anybody can actually do this maneuvers?
Is there anything more to do?
doesnâ´t this work for the FB's FM?
Is there any "hint" for this?

Thanks and sorry for my english.

Kuervito

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 02:17 AM
At the pivot point of the slice, try pulling your throttle back to about 50%. Put your rudder in before you pull, let the nose fall and pull.

That's for the slice, works well in the sim, good way of gaining on AI that turn better. The second one sounds interesting, going to have to give it a go.

Message Edited on 07/28/0308:24PM by BfHeFwMe

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 02:34 AM
mmmmmmmmmmm, I didnâ´t care about the throttle. I'll try tonight and telling you.

THX!

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 02:40 AM
Also, add a bit of left aileron at this pivot point (always opposite of the rudder direction), because as the outer wing swings around, it will carry more airspeed and want to roll the craft to the directon of rudder input.

Sometimes torque may be too great and if so, you may have to put very little aileron input in a right rudder situation, or more input than usual in a left rudder pivot.

Gyroscopic precession only causes a pitchwise movement but this is not really a major factor, because pitch is a lot easier to see and correct for in this situation.

Also, you are overthinking the rudder use. The reason rudder is added in the opposite direction of the pivot is to attempt to maintain the climbing flightpath with only a single lifting surface (actually the fuselage lifts as well, albeit crudely). This is why the Alpha (angle of attack) must be so great, not to purposefully induce a skid as you say, its much simpler than that.

Your conception, rather, is more relevant to the snap roll maneuver.

The reason you may think so is that IL2 has some issues implementing how powerful the rudder is under propwash at very low airspeeds, it really is a lot more effective in real life, a 180 degree pivot at very low airspeed can be done to completion in nearly 3 seconds for a good fighter. Of course this is not something that can be done well in computer FM simulations so its not really expected nor could it be easy to just boost this without making the rest of the envelope feel really wrong.

The alternate rudder deflection doesn't have the effect you say at such low airspeed because the alpha of the verticle stabilizer remains fairly constant as a whole since it is the propwash that is creating most of its airspeed, so the alpha is only present when the rudder is deflected (an effective AOA increase). An entire AOA change could be potentially used to do what you say but this is only present at higher airspeeds where the rudder isn't as effective at changing lateral alpha.

Message Edited on 07/28/0309:50PM by Flightvector