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Assassin_M
11-12-2010, 11:06 PM
i read on the wiki the other day that it is confirmed in discovery that he is indeed, but i havent played discovery as a matter of fact but i`d like to know what he said to indicate this as in AC II he said that god was meant to be all knowing and all powerfull... i dont think an Atheist would such a thing...
so can anyone who played discovery tell how is it confirmed ?

Nick1021
11-12-2010, 11:09 PM
I doubt he would be atheist after what he saw.
And anyone can put something on a wiki.

Assassin_M
11-12-2010, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by Nick1021:
I doubt he would be atheist after what he saw.
And anyone can put something on a wiki.

on the contrary, he`d have to be an atheist after what he saw

CRUDFACE
11-12-2010, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by Nick1021:
I doubt he would be atheist after what he saw.
And anyone can put something on a wiki.

That goes against what you just said. Someonething...someone who he thought was a god straight up told him that they weren't. Plus, in that AC game for one of the handhelds, he does say he is.

Nick1021
11-12-2010, 11:16 PM
Being atheist is not having a religion.
Religion is pretty much just devoting their life to a higher unknown force. I'm sure if more people knew about the people who came before a religion would start.

Assassin_M
11-12-2010, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by t260z:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nick1021:
I doubt he would be atheist after what he saw.
And anyone can put something on a wiki.

That goes against what you just said. Someonething...someone who he thought was a god straight up told him that they weren't. Plus, in that AC game for one of the handhelds, he does say he is. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
YES YES im talking about that game ..... now what did he say ??????? to confirm his atheism ????

CRUDFACE
11-12-2010, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by Nick1021:
Being atheist is not having a religion.
Religion is pretty much just devoting their life to a higher unknown force. I'm sure if more people knew about the people who came before a religion would start.

Yeah, yeah, I know what that means. But they wouldn't be unknown, they were physical and dead, so it would create sort of a backlash on their followers if they gained any.

CRUDFACE
11-12-2010, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by Assassin_M:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by t260z:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nick1021:
I doubt he would be atheist after what he saw.
And anyone can put something on a wiki.

That goes against what you just said. Someonething...someone who he thought was a god straight up told him that they weren't. Plus, in that AC game for one of the handhelds, he does say he is. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
YES YES im talking about that game ..... now what did he say ??????? to confirm his atheism ???? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I saw it in a playthrough, but I can't tell you the exact part of it *sigh* sorry.

Assassin_M
11-12-2010, 11:29 PM
DARN.... anyone else knows what he said ???

LoonyPanda
11-12-2010, 11:43 PM
Considering Atheism is a lack of belief in a God or Gods, and Minerva said in the vault "not Gods. We simply came.. before,".. Ezio basically had proof of atheism right there. If he still believes/d in a God after that then maybe all that Renaissance intelligence that was going around didn't rub off on Ezio

CRUDFACE
11-12-2010, 11:46 PM
I know I'm kinda spculating here, weren't Assassins in general atheist? Altair talked about it in his codex and stated its dangers.

Assassin_M
11-13-2010, 12:27 AM
PLEASE SOMEONE PLEASE again PLEAAEEEEEEEEEESE
tell when or what ezio says says to confirm his atheism

Skaevola
11-13-2010, 12:35 AM
Well before Assassin's Creed came out, Altair was said to "not necessarily be Christian, but he does have a spiritual side."

Also, Minerva doesn't say that there ISN'T a God, she just says that her race and Man matured at the same time and people often confused them for gods. I think a lot of the stuff in the AC series points to a traditional "all-knowing" type god, but it always seems to backtrack and point the opposite way. I don't think they're actually going to (fictionally) answer the question of whether God exists as part of the canon.

EDIT: Whoa, my signature is awesome! I forgot I made that.

dlonewolf1994
11-13-2010, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by Assassin_M:
PLEASE SOMEONE PLEASE again PLEAAEEEEEEEEEESE
tell when or what ezio says says to confirm his atheism


why do you want to know so badly...? what difference does it make?

Assassin_M
11-13-2010, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by dlonewolf1994:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Assassin_M:
PLEASE SOMEONE PLEASE again PLEAAEEEEEEEEEESE
tell when or what ezio says says to confirm his atheism


why do you want to know so badly...? what difference does it make? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

when i play with someone for over 20 years of his life i`d like to know his beliefs and im curious

Caligula__
11-13-2010, 12:44 AM
WOW! Wingfoot, that has to be one of the best signatures I've ever seen!

tjbyrum1
11-13-2010, 05:19 AM
Whilst fighting Rodrigo at the Vault, Rodrigo says

"You claim to be a Believer..."

And then Ezio begins saying things that show he might believe in a HIGHER POWER, not specifically the Christian God.

KaizerSoze3
11-13-2010, 05:54 AM
Well...im not exactly sure but thinking in terms of history I believe the assasin's actually originated from the Muslim belief however, may have strayed away from it. The whole war Assassin's v. Templars was about ideologies, a strong belief on which way was the best way to protect the Holy Lands of Jerusalem. The templars wanted to created a perfect world through a devotion to a higher power, whereas the Assassin's had a more free-will oriented goal.Thus, even though the Asassin's Order may have originated out of the Muslim faith, their ideologies and beliefs didn't really reflect that. On the other hand obviously the Templars slowly started to become corrupt, and they arguable began to stray away from their Christian belief,using it as more of figure head to control the masses.

notafanboy
11-13-2010, 06:06 AM
Originally posted by tjbyrum1:
Whilst fighting Rodrigo at the Vault, Rodrigo says

"You claim to be a Believer..."

And then Ezio begins saying things that show he might believe in a HIGHER POWER, not specifically the Christian God. nope
ezio: now , where is this prophet ?
rodrigo: you claim not to be a beliver , yet here you are ...

Jostru
11-13-2010, 06:11 AM
Perhaps he becomes atheist after what he saw in the Vault, but I don't think he was before. I mean, why would he always say "Requiescat in pace" if he didn't believe in a higher force or the afterlife? There are plenty indications throughout the game that he indeed was a believer.

dchil279
11-13-2010, 07:08 AM
Originally posted by Wingf00t:
Well before Assassin's Creed came out, Altair was said to "not necessarily be Christian, but he does have a spiritual side."

Also, Minerva doesn't say that there ISN'T a God, she just says that her race and Man matured at the same time and people often confused them for gods. I think a lot of the stuff in the AC series points to a traditional "all-knowing" type god, but it always seems to backtrack and point the opposite way. I don't think they're actually going to (fictionally) answer the question of whether God exists as part of the canon.

EDIT: Whoa, my signature is awesome! I forgot I made that.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif exactly

dchil279
11-13-2010, 07:09 AM
Originally posted by notafanboy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tjbyrum1:
Whilst fighting Rodrigo at the Vault, Rodrigo says

"You claim to be a Believer..."

And then Ezio begins saying things that show he might believe in a HIGHER POWER, not specifically the Christian God. nope
ezio: now , where is this prophet ?
rodrigo: you claim not to be a belive yet here you are </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
He was referring to beleiving that there was no PROPHET. God had nothing to do with that scene.

dchil279
11-13-2010, 07:14 AM
Originally posted by t260z:
I know I'm kinda spculating here, weren't Assassins in general atheist? Altair talked about it in his codex and stated its dangers.
Well in the Codex it says that they let the dangers of a blind faith, but many of them are also practitioners, so its definately not a rule that all assassins are atheist. Also, while talking to Sibrand before he dies (AC1), Altair says "go with your god now," to which Sibrand reveals his atheism and his fear because of it. Altair then says something like, "You dont believe in God?!"..... Which probably means he is a believer (on any level). It could just mean that he was surprised though.

Atheism is definately a Templar thing, but not necessarily an Assassin thing.

Abeonis
11-13-2010, 07:20 AM
Originally posted by Assassin_M:
i read on the wiki the other day that it is confirmed in discovery that he is indeed, but i havent played discovery as a matter of fact but i`d like to know what he said to indicate this as in AC II he said that god was meant to be all knowing and all powerfull... i dont think an Atheist would such a thing...
so can anyone who played discovery tell how is it confirmed ?

Ezio is indeed, an Atheist. This is indicated throughout the game. Also, when conversing with Rodrigo at the end of the game Ezio clearly says "your god".



Originally posted by Nick1021:
I doubt he would be atheist after what he saw.
And anyone can put something on a wiki.

On the contrary, he is more likely to doubt the existance of a god after what he saw. Ezio has always been an atheist, he never once says that he beieves in a god; higher power however, is another matter.

Also, yes, anybody can edit a wiki, but I like to think that my fellow contributors and I are pretty on the ball when it comes to people making stuff up and adding it to our wiki. If it aint true, it doesn't stay for long.

dchil279
11-13-2010, 07:26 AM
Ezio is indeed, an Atheist. This is indicated throughout the game. Also, when conversing with Rodrigo at the end of the game Ezio clearly says "your god".
Oka, so he's not a Christian. That doesn't mean he's an Atheist.

CRUDFACE
11-13-2010, 07:46 AM
Originally posted by dchil279:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by t260z:
I know I'm kinda spculating here, weren't Assassins in general atheist? Altair talked about it in his codex and stated its dangers.
Well in the Codex it says that they let the dangers of a blind faith, but many of them are also practitioners, so its definately not a rule that all assassins are atheist. Also, while talking to Sibrand before he dies (AC1), Altair says "go with your god now," to which Sibrand reveals his atheism and his fear because of it. Altair then says something like, "You dont believe in God?!"..... Which probably means he is a believer (on any level). It could just mean that he was surprised though.

Atheism is definately a Templar thing, but not necessarily an Assassin thing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think Altair was so surprised because Templars in general were devout believers and was surprised to know that one didn't believe. Now, according to history, Religion hcan be used to create a binding on man, like throwing away knowledge that isn't supportd by their god, things they may call blasphemy and such. The templars themselves, the original ones, opperated out of a religous organization. they may not have believed as much as an "ordinary" Christian, but they only played on what was already on their minds.

If Assassins really do fight for "free" will then they wouldn't adhere to a particular faith, or maybe even no faith at all since most, if not all faiths lay down a kind of restriction.

Big_Steve68w
11-13-2010, 08:33 AM
Hmm, I'd say that Ezio didn't follow any particular belief and/or faith. However, it's obvious he didn't rule out the possibility a higher power could exist. I don't think Ezio had a problem with religion as long as it was not forced.

After the vault, who knows? If you lived in the 1500s' and saw that what would you do? What would you say? I think Desmond summed it up nicely.

CRUDFACE
11-13-2010, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by Big_Steve68w:
Hmm, I'd say that Ezio didn't follow any particular belief and/or faith. However, it's obvious he didn't rule out the possibility a higher power could exist. I don't think Ezio had a problem with religion as long as it was not forced.

After the vault, who knows? If you lived in the 1500s' and saw that what would you do? What would you say? I think Desmond summed it up nicely.

Lol, so true. Did anyone else feel a moment of deja vu when Desmond spoke at the end?

Nick1021
11-13-2010, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by LoonyPanda:
Considering Atheism is a lack of belief in a God or Gods, and Minerva said in the vault "not Gods. We simply came.. before,".. Ezio basically had proof of atheism right there. If he still believes/d in a God after that then maybe all that Renaissance intelligence that was going around didn't rub off on Ezio
You don't have to believe in god.
Budists believe in true peace mainly. And pretty much we believe in god because he came before and made us.
And in the video game those who came before also made us, but they made us to be slaves.

gijoemc
11-13-2010, 09:38 AM
Alright, so we based our beliefs on these ancient people, and called them gods. Ezio mets one of these "gods" and is now an atheist? People who've met God or gods don't say they don't believe now that they've seen him. I think Ezio would probably still call them gods. They're the gods that came before us, I don't think people understood the concepts of aliens enough.

GunnarGunderson
11-13-2010, 10:02 AM
Both Altair and Ezio say "your god" when they're talking to their victims, I'd say that's good enough reason to suspect all assassins are atheists. Not to mention they know about the pieces of eden which kind of disproves god

Big_Steve68w
11-13-2010, 10:08 AM
Yeah, Ezio was confused and dumbfounded in the vault. Minerva, making things worse, told him to be quiet for she was only speaking through him. In the end, Ezio begged Minerva "not to go because he still had so many questions." So the concept of "those who came before" is probably hard for Ezio, a man of the 1500s, to grasp.

So, to simplify and to put in words what he has seen, Ezio may just refer to Minerva as a god and/or of the supernatural.

Abeonis
11-13-2010, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by dchil279:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ezio is indeed, an Atheist. This is indicated throughout the game. Also, when conversing with Rodrigo at the end of the game Ezio clearly says "your god".
Oka, so he's not a Christian. That doesn't mean he's an Atheist. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well what else is he going to be? He isn't a buddhist, is he?

xsatanicjokerx
11-13-2010, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by BradKinn:
Both Altair and Ezio say "your god" when they're talking to their victims, I'd say that's good enough reason to suspect all assassins are atheists. Not to mention they know about the pieces of eden which kind of disproves god it makes sense for altair to say "your god" as he kills people from different religions

AubreyWilborn
11-13-2010, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by dchil279:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by t260z:
I know I'm kinda spculating here, weren't Assassins in general atheist? Altair talked about it in his codex and stated its dangers.
Well in the Codex it says that they let the dangers of a blind faith, but many of them are also practitioners, so its definately not a rule that all assassins are atheist. Also, while talking to Sibrand before he dies (AC1), Altair says "go with your god now," to which Sibrand reveals his atheism and his fear because of it. Altair then says something like, "You dont believe in God?!"..... Which probably means he is a believer (on any level). It could just mean that he was surprised though.

Atheism is definately a Templar thing, but not necessarily an Assassin thing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


When Altair shows surprise that Sibrand is an atheist-that doesn't mean that he, himself believes in God. Altair was shocked that Sibrand would be an atheist because he was the head of "religious" order of knights.

As for Ezio, I'd say that he is agnostic-not an atheist. There is a difference. An Agnostic doesn't beleive in any PARTICULAR god, but he doesn't rule out the existence of a higher power, either.

An atheist, on the other hand, believes completely that there is no higher power.

lilbacchant
11-13-2010, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by AubreyWilborn:
When Altair shows surprise that Sibrand is an atheist-that doesn't mean that he, himself believes in God. Altair was shocked that Sibrand would be an atheist because he was the head of "religious" order of knights.

As for Ezio, I'd say that he is agnostic-not an atheist. There is a difference. An Agnostic doesn't beleive in any PARTICULAR god, but he doesn't rule out the existence of a higher power, either.

An atheist, on the other hand, believes completely that there is no higher power.

I was gonna say exactly what you said, but obviously less eloquently, so I'm glad you went first. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

dchil279
11-13-2010, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by Abeonis:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dchil279:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ezio is indeed, an Atheist. This is indicated throughout the game. Also, when conversing with Rodrigo at the end of the game Ezio clearly says "your god".
Oka, so he's not a Christian. That doesn't mean he's an Atheist. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well what else is he going to be? He isn't a buddhist, is he? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
He could be anything. I'll give you an example: Me. I don't associate myself with any religion, or group, but I am definitely (<--is that how you spell it?) not atheist.

sm312
11-13-2010, 03:40 PM
If there is a god I believe in him/her/it, but I don't need a religion.

Sparty2020
11-13-2010, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by Jostru:
Perhaps he becomes atheist after what he saw in the Vault, but I don't think he was before. I mean, why would he always say "Requiescat in pace" if he didn't believe in a higher force or the afterlife? There are plenty indications throughout the game that he indeed was a believer. As a sign of respect? As a formality? Atheists aren't allowed to show respect for the dead?

It seems that Ezio, like Altair, avoided religion altogether. I'd say he was definitely an atheist in not being influenced by the belief of gods or fate, but it would be safer to simply call him agnostic. After all when it comes to religion "the weak obsess over it, the wise laugh at it, and the strong ignore it."

Redfeather1975
11-13-2010, 10:07 PM
I am no expert, but I would guess both Altair and Ezio, at points in the lives, can suspect that there is the possibility of some higher power.

However I also believe neither one of them would trust or follow anyone who claimed to know it, and also to know its will. And that would include not trusting themself if they began to think they knew!

Sparty2020
11-13-2010, 10:21 PM
It's been confirmed by the Devs that since Altair's mother is Christian and his father is Muslim he himself is Atheist. We're wondering what Ezio is

AubreyWilborn
11-13-2010, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by Sparty2020:
It's been confirmed by the Devs that since Altair's mother is Christian and his father is Muslim he himself is Atheist. We're wondering what Ezio is

Lol, just because his parents were to different religions, that makes him an atheist? What's the logic there? He could have chosen to follow either his mother's, or his father's faith had he been so inclined.

That being said, judging by his diary entries Altair is probably an atheist. He lightly disparages organized religions in his codex. Of course, the jury's still out on Ezio. Like I said earlier, he may be an agnostic.

the UPS guy
01-20-2011, 11:44 PM
There are people that believe in God but don't devote themselves to him. I don't see Ezio as a christian or catholic, but most people, religious or not, know God is real. He sure as hell ain't no atheist <span class="ev_code_red">***EDIT***</span> !

Ultimate_Night
01-20-2011, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by HerSeksBiscuit:
There are people that believe in God but don't devote themselves to him. I don't see Ezio as a christian or catholic, but most people, religious or not, know God is real. He sure as hell ain't no atheist <span class="ev_code_red">***EDIT***</span> !
Ezio is atheist, revealed in Discovery from what I understand. "Atheist <span class="ev_code_red">***EDIT***</span> ?" Typical religious fanatic... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Us atheists don't care what religious people think of us. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

TheSpectator
01-21-2011, 12:00 AM
I don't understand atheism it's just as bad as theism both parties claim to know what happens in the next life. I don't have a clue what happens after death, no one does but eventually we all will. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

TachyonicRage
01-21-2011, 03:36 AM
[Reading all this made me realise
No one said agnostic, this would of solved it.
Ezio was open minded to the concept of a higher force but did not have enough evidence to prove existence of a higher being/force.

Now to the theist who said "Atheist <span class="ev_code_red">***EDIT***</span> " ... why do people do this, we are not at war with Atheists. Please people understand it is not all of us who are like this. to the theists who insult atheist, i am disappointed. you contradict your own believe and taint your faith with you words.

BK-110
01-21-2011, 06:44 AM
I wouldn't say that he's necessarily an atheist, but he's definitely non-religious and a skeptic. Yes, one can be a theist and non-religious at the same time. He did call Minerva a goddess, although that may just be due to the lack of any better word. She did say that they weren't gods, after all.

So yeah, he may or may not be an atheist, but he's definitely non-religious and a skeptic.

Altaïr, on the other hand, was definitely an atheist, at least after the events of the first game.


Originally posted by TheSpectator:
I don't understand atheism it's just as bad as theism both parties claim to know what happens in the next life. I don't have a clue what happens after death, no one does but eventually we all will. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Wrong, "atheism" makes no claims whatsoever about the afterlife. Actually, it doesn't make any claims at all. Atheism is nothing but "non-belief in any god or deity". Yes, many atheists are strongly convinced that there is no after life, but that is not a claim of knowledge, but rather a conclusion from natural evidence.

Noble6
01-21-2011, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by TachyonicRage:
[Reading all this made me realise
No one said agnostic, this would of solved it.
Ezio was open minded to the concept of a higher force but did not have enough evidence to prove existence of a higher being/force.

.
This sounds plausible. Many people here don't know here what they are talking about and it isn't so simple to say what religious and what isn't.

ThaWhistle
01-21-2011, 09:45 AM
agnostic is probably more likely. Especially since he just came across all this, and htough minerva was a god. certainly not a christian though considering how he says something to one of the clergymen he kills about "your god" implying it isn't one he believes in.

rheselden
01-21-2011, 10:32 AM
hard to say for sure one way or another on ezio. but it would be safe to say his family was christian since he was so concerned with making sure his father and brothers received last rites.

Abeonis
01-21-2011, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by rheselden:
hard to say for sure one way or another on ezio. but it would be safe to say his family was christian since he was so concerned with making sure his father and brothers received last rites.

No, because Giovanni was atheist (or more likely Agnostic) as well.

ThaWhistle
01-21-2011, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by BK-110:
I wouldn't say that he's necessarily an atheist, but he's definitely non-religious and a skeptic. Yes, one can be a theist and non-religious at the same time. He did call Minerva a goddess, although that may just be due to the lack of any better word. She did say that they weren't gods, after all.

So yeah, he may or may not be an atheist, but he's definitely non-religious and a skeptic.

Altaïr, on the other hand, was definitely an atheist, at least after the events of the first game.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheSpectator:
I don't understand atheism it's just as bad as theism both parties claim to know what happens in the next life. I don't have a clue what happens after death, no one does but eventually we all will. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Wrong, "atheism" makes no claims whatsoever about the afterlife. Actually, it doesn't make any claims at all. Atheism is nothing but "non-belief in any god or deity". Yes, many atheists are strongly convinced that there is no after life, but that is not a claim of knowledge, but rather a conclusion from natural evidence. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Alot of people, athiests included, tend to confuse the terms athiest, and antitheist. the first merely lacks any religious belief, a clearer term would be nontheist, whereas an antitheist rejects all ideas of god, gods, ethereal forces or whatever.

BK-110
01-21-2011, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by ThaWhistle:
Alot of people, athiests included, tend to confuse the terms athiest, and antitheist. the first merely lacks any religious belief, a clearer term would be nontheist, whereas an antitheist rejects all ideas of god, gods, ethereal forces or whatever.

Well, that's partially wrong as well, an atheist can be religious, too. A religion does not necessarily have to contain any deities.

But yes, atheism and anti-theism are often confused. It would probably be most accurate to say that atheism is the non-belief in any god or deity while anti-theism is being against theism for whatever reason.

ThaWhistle
01-21-2011, 02:09 PM
meh, same thing. but not really. but whatever.

RedSpider
01-21-2011, 04:50 PM
Maybe he doesn't really fit into anything? I mean, there are so many different levels of belief. I remember reading a while ago that there isn't just atheists, agnostics and theists, but also atheistic-agnostic, theistic-agnostic, etc, which are people who hold their respective beliefs, but aren't arrogant enough to think that what they belief is law and everyone else is stupid. They are open to other interpretations.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
P.S I'm an atheist and still show respect for the dead.

rheselden
01-21-2011, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Abeonis:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rheselden:
hard to say for sure one way or another on ezio. but it would be safe to say his family was christian since he was so concerned with making sure his father and brothers received last rites.

No, because Giovanni was atheist (or more likely Agnostic) as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

and you're basing this on what exactly?

xcamthemandudex
01-21-2011, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by AubreyWilborn:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sparty2020:
It's been confirmed by the Devs that since Altair's mother is Christian and his father is Muslim he himself is Atheist. We're wondering what Ezio is

Lol, just because his parents were to different religions, that makes him an atheist? What's the logic there? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Possible confliction between the two religions (in his mind) and the possibility of letting one of the parents down drove him to not believe in either of the gods? That's my humble guess.

AubreyWilborn
01-21-2011, 06:46 PM
Doubtful. We know from his codex entries that Altair wasn't close enough to his parents to care about letting them down, or be conflicted by their opposing religious views. I personally believe that Altair's parents weren't devout enough in their respective faiths to have brewed much conflict.

Going back to Altair's own faith-we know that during the events of AC1, he is nominally a Muslim, because he is a member of the Assassin sect, which was a Medieval Muslim sect. But of course, after he discovers the secrets of the Apple, he becomes an atheist.

Abeonis
01-21-2011, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by rheselden:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Abeonis:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rheselden:
hard to say for sure one way or another on ezio. but it would be safe to say his family was christian since he was so concerned with making sure his father and brothers received last rites.

No, because Giovanni was atheist (or more likely Agnostic) as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

and you're basing this on what exactly? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

On the in-game and in-movie information provided, perhaps?

DeeNuke
01-22-2011, 02:44 AM
Well, isn't it the whole AC concept not believing in "gods" of any kind? Especially that the so called "gods" were just other race that lived on Earth. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I mean, after all the things you play on the game, is there really an issue of Ezio is atheist or not? Just the Creed's motto, "nothing is true, everything is permitted", says a lot.

Alpha Ender
01-22-2011, 04:04 AM
Originally posted by AubreyWilborn:
Doubtful. We know from his codex entries that Altair wasn't close enough to his parents to care about letting them down, or be conflicted by their opposing religious views. I personally believe that Altair's parents weren't devout enough in their respective faiths to have brewed much conflict.

Going back to Altair's own faith-we know that during the events of AC1, he is nominally a Muslim, because he is a member of the Assassin sect, which was a Medieval Muslim sect. But of course, after he discovers the secrets of the Apple, he becomes an atheist.

*sigh* In context, we are talking about Ezio here. Note: "Originally posted by Sparty2020:
It's been confirmed by the Devs that since Altair's mother is Christian and his father is Muslim he himself is Atheist. We're wondering what Ezio is". I don't speak for him, but I will say that the context is about Ezio, not Altair, as is the thread.

Me, personally? I like to think of Ezio as a man who believes in some sort of higher power. Whatever that makes him, I don't know, but that's what I think.

Also, I believe non-console games (i.e. anything besides AC, ACII, and ACB) are considered non-canon, meaning they don't apply.

BioSaber12
10-02-2013, 05:01 AM
Considering Atheism is a lack of belief in a God or Gods, and Minerva said in the vault "not Gods. We simply came.. before,".. Ezio basically had proof of atheism right there. If he still believes/d in a God after that then maybe all that Renaissance intelligence that was going around didn't rub off on Ezio

What exactly are you implying? What does Renaissance intelligence have to do with not believing in God? Atheism is just an opinion after all

roostersrule2
10-02-2013, 05:14 AM
Hahaha this is my favourite bot now.

pirate1802
10-02-2013, 06:17 AM
Hahhahahaha!

Shahkulu101
10-02-2013, 03:54 PM
Lol@ baby M.

Assassin_M
10-02-2013, 03:55 PM
Lol@ baby M.
What? I was curious:p

Shahkulu101
10-02-2013, 03:57 PM
What? I was curious:p

I know it's just funny 'cause of the sentence structure and grammar - couldn't imagine you writing this. :p

pacmanate
10-02-2013, 03:57 PM
I know it's just funny 'cause of the sentence structure and grammar - couldn't imagine you writing this. :p

Bahahahhahahhahaha

Assassin_M
10-02-2013, 03:58 PM
I know it's just funny 'cause of the sentence structure and grammar - couldn't imagine you writing this. :p
Oh that xD Funny what 3 years can do, right? :p

Assassin_M
10-02-2013, 03:58 PM
Bahahahhahahhahaha
Write Arabic for me

pacmanate
10-02-2013, 04:00 PM
Write Arabic for me

Arabic for me

Assassin_M
10-02-2013, 04:01 PM
Arabic for me
Get up and give yourself a star
http://www.thesmokingtire.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/two-thumbs-up.jpg

Shahkulu101
10-02-2013, 04:01 PM
Oh that xD Funny what 3 years can do, right? :p

Yar...now you're on course to be a big shot game designer.

pirate1802
10-02-2013, 04:04 PM
Lol@ baby M.

I know right? Its alost as if someone opened a tear in spacetime and showed us a sneak-peak into the past. :O

Assassin_M
10-02-2013, 04:05 PM
Yar...now you're on course to be a big shot game designer.
Yeah and I finally found out what Ezio said in Discovery that shows his Atheism xD

ArabianFrost
10-02-2013, 04:06 PM
Kol soghayar meseero yekbar.

Shahkulu101
10-02-2013, 04:06 PM
Yeah and I finally found out what Ezio said in Discovery that shows his Atheism xD

What?

Assassin_M
10-02-2013, 04:06 PM
Kol soghayar meseero yekbar.
Wiser words have never been spoken...

Assassin_M
10-02-2013, 04:09 PM
What?
He was speaking with Torquemada I think and Ezio said "Rodrigo Borgia is a non-believer, like me" when Torquemada said that Rodrigo was a man of god and was cleansing Spain from heresy, but this doesn't make any sense, since Ezio seemed genuinely surprised at Rodrigo's apparent....disbelief in Catholicism during their final fight and Discovery occurs before the battle in the Vault, so.

probably shouldn't think about it too much, since i think only the major events of Discovery are canon

ArabianFrost
10-02-2013, 04:13 PM
Wiser words have never been spoken...

Still; you sound like you were taught English by abla enshera7. Ma32oola Amrika 3amalet feik kol dah?

http://i.imgur.com/0gk5ajQ.jpg

Assassin_M
10-02-2013, 04:14 PM
Still; you sound like you were taught English by abla enshera7. Ma32oola Amrika 3amalet feik kol dah?

http://i.imgur.com/0gk5ajQ.jpg
No, i came to amrika berfect. My grammar and structure improved due to za SAT Exam :p

ArabianFrost
10-02-2013, 04:15 PM
No, i came to amrika berfect. My grammar and structure improved due to za SAT Exam :p

And doo yoo zbeek egepshun accent, or with an American accent?

Assassin_M
10-02-2013, 04:17 PM
And doo yoo zbeek egepshun accent, or with an American accent?
American and za British....sometime egeshun too when i am bored

roostersrule2
10-02-2013, 04:23 PM
fnirefb3rifh;4fcurryuoirefrhfurhfpufhgtyhyhythyth

Assassin_M
10-02-2013, 04:27 PM
curry
mmmmmmmmmm

ArabianFrost
10-02-2013, 04:28 PM
American and za British....sometime egeshun too when i am bored

واو
يور سو دريمي.

http://i.imgur.com/3mVvXIi.jpg

roostersrule2
10-02-2013, 04:28 PM
واو
يور سو دريمي.

http://i.imgur.com/3mVvXIi.jpgIs that Brock?

Shahkulu101
10-02-2013, 04:31 PM
Sheesh kebab abrakebabra chili zing hat hat hat korma. ;)

pacmanate
10-02-2013, 04:36 PM
Sheesh kebab abrakebabra chili zing hat hat hat korma. ;)

mmm that sounds tasty alsfsa[ sfjjsa;l klabsab!

roostersrule2
10-02-2013, 04:38 PM
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130715145028/assassinscreed/images/9/9f/Ashraf_Ismail.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/3mVvXIi.jpg

pacmanate
10-02-2013, 04:39 PM
^ my god

ArabianFrost
10-02-2013, 04:42 PM
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130715145028/assassinscreed/images/9/9f/Ashraf_Ismail.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/3mVvXIi.jpg

Lo and behold Egyptian music at its worse era:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-wvcc8_kOE

ArabianFrost
10-02-2013, 04:43 PM
^ my god

He gives us stealth and random events. He's a nice man.

roostersrule2
10-02-2013, 04:43 PM
He gives us stealth and random events. He's a nice man.And music.

pacmanate
10-02-2013, 04:50 PM
And music.

and iguanas

Assassin_M
10-02-2013, 04:56 PM
balash fadaye7 ybni :|

No scandals, my son please :|

STDlyMcStudpants
10-02-2013, 05:57 PM
In AC 2 and ACB I got a strong sense that he does not believe in the catholic teachings of God.
He didn't flat out say he was a non believer in God though. Just not a believer in organized religion.
But as for "Discovery"
I don't follow the comics or movies..or even hand held game...
If it wasnt on console then it doesnt exist in my AC world lol
But why?!
Because too many writers....one writer can give a sense and gestures while the next puts words into this characters mouth because of this sense...
They make assumptions....

adventurewomen
10-02-2013, 06:38 PM
I thought Ezio was raised a Catholic?

Nothing was said about his religion.

LoyalACFan
10-02-2013, 08:19 PM
This thread's so old I'm not even sure why I'm replying, but yes, he was an atheist.

-he was mentored mostly by Altair's atheistic codex
-he refers to Christianity to Rodrigo as "your faith"
-he told Salai "my church is not of God"
-Minerva literally disproved the Bible right in front of his face

WinterLight1981
10-03-2013, 11:12 AM
Not sure whether it matters, although I am interested if Discovery counts as canon. Ezio's dialogue is as follows:

"All lies. Rodrigo Borgia is an unbeliever like me, and yet you lavish him with favours."

renatabls
10-03-2013, 06:42 PM
It's like asking if Ezio is gay, who cares?

AU7thGear
10-04-2013, 12:42 PM
In the games themselves it does not mention Ezio's faith and all speculation otherwise is conjecture. However in Oliver Bowden's 'Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood' novel, it was stated Ezio is actually a christian. See 'Differences'. http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Assassin%27s_Creed:_Brotherhood_(novel)

LoyalACFan
10-04-2013, 08:01 PM
In the games themselves it does not mention Ezio's faith and all speculation otherwise is conjecture. However in Oliver Bowden's 'Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood' novel, it was stated Ezio is actually a christian. See 'Differences'. http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Assassin%27s_Creed:_Brotherhood_(novel)

Bowden's novels are only quasi-canon. The games contradict them on several points, including Ezio's religion, and it's been established that the games take precedence. I think the "my church is not of God" and "your faith" comments were enough to prove that he's an atheist in the game.

AU7thGear
10-05-2013, 04:31 AM
I think the "my church is not of God" and "your faith" comments were enough to prove that he's an atheist in the game.


I don't think so. I get where you're coming from, but that really isn't enough to prove a religion, or absence there of.

Jexx21
10-05-2013, 05:16 AM
I think Ezio was a non-practicing Catholic.

Either that or he was agnostic.

The existence of TWCB does not deny the existence of a God.

I-Like-Pie45
10-05-2013, 06:40 AM
what if he was a deist like thomas jefferson

believe in religion as a philosophy but cut out all the magic jesus moses king david parts

Jexx21
10-05-2013, 07:28 AM
Then it's just a philosophy, and depending on what section of the book(s) you're reading from, not always a good one.

But at the same time, I'm more of a "faith" person than a "religion" person.

Hans684
10-05-2013, 09:41 AM
In the games themselves it does not mention Ezio's faith and all speculation otherwise is conjecture. However in Oliver Bowden's 'Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood' novel, it was stated Ezio is actually a christian. See 'Differences'. http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Assassin%27s_Creed:_Brotherhood_(novel)

AC Distcovery is canon, since Mr.Shade(forum), Corey May(twitter) or Darby Mcdevitt(twitter) works for Ubisoft try to ask one or all instead of saying what's conon or not.

Jexx21
10-05-2013, 06:48 PM
yea but Discovery's basic events are the only canon part. There's a discrepancy between Discovery and AC2 where in AC2 Ezio is surprised to learn that Rodrigo is actually an athiest and that was after the events of Discovery, where he says that Rodrigo is "a non-believer, like me."

Hans684
10-05-2013, 06:52 PM
yea but Discovery's basic events are the only canon part. There's a discrepancy between Discovery and AC2 where in AC2 Ezio is surprised to learn that Rodrigo is actually an athiest and that was after the events of Discovery, where he says that Rodrigo is "a non-believer, like me."

And not many years after Rodrigo become pope something that may have made him question if he actually was a non-believer like him. Becouse of that he got suprised when Rodrigo told him he was an atheist.

Jexx21
10-05-2013, 06:58 PM
The Templars are always in pursuit of power, and Ezio knew this. The Pope was essentially the ruling man for Italy at the time, so it would have come to no surprise that Rodrigo took the papacy.

AU7thGear
10-06-2013, 09:16 AM
AC Distcovery is canon, since Mr.Shade(forum), Corey May(twitter) or Darby Mcdevitt(twitter) works for Ubisoft try to ask one or all instead of saying what's conon or not.

Hah! I didn't actually state what was cannon or not. I simply gave the facts. So try to read through someones post properly before you be rude to them.

MustaviSadi
11-20-2015, 01:17 PM
I don't think either Ezio or Altair were atheist. They did believe in God, just not the way the Christians do. When Altair said that God had nothing to do with Robert's death and that he was the better fighter, it meant that God had already written the death of the Templars. God would just have to see his creation do the work. Everything happens by God's will, but that does not mean He forces everyone to do what He wants them to do. Also, the light mentioned by Altair in the Codex is none other than Satan, who wants to lead people astray.

Similarly, when Ezio gave his father and brothers a water burial when a land burial was impossible, he said that he wanted to send them on to the next world, or the afterlife. When Ezio said that he was an unbeliever like Rodrigo Borgia, he meant that he did not believe in God the way the Christians do, but he meant that he believed in God in his own way. Ezio even thanked God for keeping his mother safe. When he broke into the fifth Romulus tomb, he said Amen. When he said that his church was not of God, it meant that he worshipped God in one way or the other. Ezio believed in an afterlife, even after his confrontation with Minerva in Rome. Ezio obviously abandoned drinking and stopped commiting adultery near the end of his life after his marriage with Sofia, and repented for his ill-deeds.

So I can conclude that both Altair and Ezio were more Muslim than Christian. Altair came from a Muslim family while Ezio was a Catholic, but later reverted to Unitarianism.

Arno mentioned that there was no supreme being watching over us to punish us for our sins, because he became too cynical. After Dead Kings, however, he lost his cynicism and took back what he said about God, once more believing in Him.

MustaviSadi
11-20-2015, 01:26 PM
Problem is, the light mentioned in Altair's codex is none other than Satan.

MustaviSadi
11-20-2015, 01:28 PM
The First Civ can be pretty compulsive liars. They did mention about someone whose grasp they can never evade. Someone who would always watch over them and punish them should they deviate from the true path.

Looks like that "someone" is no one else but God.

Shahkulu101
11-20-2015, 01:48 PM
M when he was but a youngling :')

ze_topazio
11-20-2015, 01:59 PM
M when he was but a youngling :')

They grow up so fast.

VestigialLlama4
11-20-2015, 02:34 PM
This was before I started playing AC, or got an XBOX 360. Ancient.

LoyalACFan
11-21-2015, 11:07 PM
Didn't he say at one point "Rodrigo is a nonbeliever like me" or something?

Edit- wow, didn't realize I was posting in a zombie thread

ACZanius
11-22-2015, 01:55 PM
wow bro strong thread from 2010 lol

I think Ezio is not an atheist, he believes in higher power but not in generic mainstream manipulated christianity, not sure about Altair but at the end of the day i could care less about beliefs of our Assassin protagonists

VestigialLlama4
11-22-2015, 02:28 PM
wow bro strong thread from 2010 lol

I think Ezio is not an atheist, he believes in higher power but not in generic mainstream manipulated christianity, not sure about Altair but at the end of the day i could care less about beliefs of our Assassin protagonists

The Doylist explanation is that Ubisoft wouldn't want their heroes associated with militant atheism or any ideas that mainstream society thinks is challenging and so uncommercial. So if Ezio is an atheist (and I think he is) he will not say it openly or take a direct stand against religious ideas and belief anyway. The fact is the Templars are more openly mocking of religion in the game than the Assassins, meant to resemble the strawman atheism that people dislike.

Megas_Doux
11-22-2015, 03:46 PM
The Doylist explanation is that Ubisoft wouldn't want their heroes associated with militant atheism or any ideas that mainstream society thinks is challenging and so uncommercial. So if Ezio is an atheist (and I think he is) he will not say it openly or take a direct stand against religious ideas and belief anyway. The fact is the Templars are more openly mocking of religion in the game than the Assassins, meant to resemble the strawman atheism that people dislike.

Atheism, whereas growing, is still a taboo at times.

VestigialLlama4
11-22-2015, 04:08 PM
Atheism, whereas growing, is still a taboo at times.

It very much is. You can't have today a character like Harry Potter or Spiderman or Superman, universally popular types be an atheist. None of them are especially religious from what we see but they can't really come out and say anything because then their companies and copyright owners are taking a particular stand on an issue and asking the audience to respond to that. To these companies these characters are meant to entertain and not be thought off too deeply and that is kind of legitimate and fair even if you can say, it is cowardly.

In fact name one fictional character who is universally liked and popular who is openly an atheist. Sherlock Holmes? Maybe but even he never voices an opinion against religion nor is he considered an atheist. In fact you can make a good case that the most commercially successful artist whose works are atheistic is Woody Allen. His movies are openly atheistic and have been so for nearly fifty years now and he's had box-office success and fame. Nobody else is as famous and influential in the mainstream. The AC games take a secular look at history largely because they don't want to deal with religion (and I don't blame them for that). So the Crusades being very much a religious conflict becomes a conspiracy war between proto-secular humanists. The Assassins being coded as palatable to audience states by use of dirty tricks. In AC1, Altair and the very Christian Richard the Lionheart pal out and the basic undertone is that this atheistic Arab dude thinks this Christian dudebro is awesome and Altair's enemies are more openly atheistic.

SYNDICATE is potentially more radical in that the Assassins pal out with Karl "Religion is Opium" Marx and of course what some Americans consider the anti-Christ Charles Darwin. One of the Templars you whack is a religious fundamentalist, David Brewster who spouts anti-Darwin rhetoric and yet the game doesn't deal with religion or touch on those aspects of its characters.

Sushiglutton
11-22-2015, 05:22 PM
Not sure, I don't really pay that close attention. I guess Godzio believes in himself though :p.



Atheism, whereas growing, is still a taboo at times.

Yeah if someone running for president suggested that a man who died 2000 years ago perhaps did not come back from the dead, he would be out of the race. Sadly it seems fundamentalism is on the rise in America. Have listened a bit to what Ben Carsson (who is 2nd in the GOP race) is saying and it's shocking. And let's not even start with the carnage religion causes in the middle east.

The secular paradise sadly seems more distant than at the turn of the century :(.

ze_topazio
11-22-2015, 06:26 PM
That's more of an American thing, European politicians are expected to keep their religious beliefs or lack of them to themselves, mentioning such things would be political suicide, the other day there was a flood around here, some stores were destroyed and an old man died, some minister was on tv like, "God will give you strength", "pray to God", "that old man was called by God to join him in heaven" etc..., he was mocked to no end, even religious people found what he said highly inappropriate.

I don't know, this days, at least around here, when someone says they're atheists nobody cares, while when someone says they're religious everybody looks at them with them with a "How is that possible in this day an age" look in their faces.

I also don't think there's any need for a fictional character to mention such things unless is important to the story, the trend this days is to keep your beliefs or lack of them to yourself and not try to impose those views on others and that applies to fictional works too.

VestigialLlama4
11-22-2015, 07:40 PM
That's more of an American thing, European politicians are expected to keep their religious beliefs or lack of them to themselves, mentioning such things would be political suicide, the other day there was a flood around here, some stores were destroyed and an old man died, some minister was on tv like, "God will give you strength", "pray to God", "that old man was called by God to join him in heaven" etc..., he was mocked to no end, even religious people found what he said highly inappropriate.

I don't know, this days, at least around here, when someone says they're atheists nobody cares, while when someone says they're religious everybody looks at them with them with a "How is that possible in this day an age" look in their faces.

I also don't think there's any need for a fictional character to mention such things unless is important to the story, the trend this days is to keep your beliefs or lack of them to yourself and not try to impose those views on others and that applies to fictional works too.

Well every work of art does impart and impose a set of beliefs on you. It's hard to say that religion is the source of evil and then listen to Mathaus Passion or see paintings by Giotto, because they are clearly works of individuals who had strong religious beliefs and yet you can appreciate the beauty of these works without sharing those beliefs yourself.

Obviously the power of art can transcend any belief or value so obviously the same should be true for other beliefs. I mean a lot of individuals aren't communists these days but even then you have to admit that communist artists made great movies, poems, plays and paintings. So technically it should be possible for a work to have an atheistic perspective and an atheist hero and still get a general audience to share and appreciate that without necessarily accepting it themselves.

It would work if there was a general balance but there isn't really. Like one thing that struck me was that James Bond movie Casino Royale, where the villain Le Chiffre said he didn't believe in God openly. I can't imagine anyone more secular than James Bond but even there the idea is to present the bad guy as openly atheist. It's subtle rather than overt, but the fact is that atheists still get a bad rap in general culture, where characters who you think are atheists (Sherlock Holmes or Ezio in the case of AC) are not openly identified as such, and villains tend to be more anti-God than otherwise. All the big superheroes are god-fearing types too.

ze_topazio
11-22-2015, 08:13 PM
That's what I said, if that's the kind of story or message the author is trying to pass is fine, if the story has other themes there's no real point in mentioning such things, why would Harry Potter talk about what his religious beliefs are? that would be highly irrelevant to his story, we also don't know Ezio's stance on animal rights issues, AC characters religious beliefs, in my opinion, have never been relevant in any story so far.

Unlike most of you here I don't really think most people care or feel outraged by what some fictional character believes or not, I don't really think many people would care if some AC character stated to not believe in any supernatural entity.

VestigialLlama4
11-22-2015, 08:33 PM
AC characters religious beliefs, in my opinion, have never been relevant in any story so far.

The thing is character's opinions on religion are in fact relevant in the stories we see. AC1 has Altair in the Crusades, a religious war, so in that context the character's opinions on religion would count a great deal. Likewise AC2 and ACB deals with Church corruption and Ezio raises his fist against the Pope of the Catholic Church in a really holy chapel, so his religious opinions are relevant to the story and plot. For Ezio, a young man raised in a Catholic middle class of the Italian Renaissance to go against the Church and not be a big deal is a huge stretch because what he is doing is supremely blasphemous...I mean a number of ex-Catholics who broke from the Church have had difficulty shaking their upbringing since it apparently really affects you and for Ezio not to have an opinion on religion there, or rather not directly have an opinion (since his real beliefs is the Bonfire of Vanities and when he says "There's no book" he's basically saying there's no God) is kind of odd.

I mean religious opinions don't matter in the other games, like in Black Flag and in AC3, because those are political and economic conflicts there. But essentially its analogous to Arno being totally detached and not having an opinion on the French Revolution, which was plainly not possible at that time and place. That struck out sorely in Unity because political and economic issues do matter for us these days more than religious opinions but its comparable to the silence on religion in AC1 and AC2.


Unlike most of you here I don't really think most people care or feel outraged by what some fictional character believes or not, I don't really think many people would care if some AC character stated to not believe in any supernatural entity.

You and I and most would not but some would and that some is more vocal and better organized than the rest of us are. And Ubisoft obviously takes care to protect itself from those types.

MustaviSadi
12-09-2015, 02:06 PM
When Ezio said that there was no book to lead the wat, he meant that the Bible had become corrupted and that the Bible could no longer be trusted. Ezio still believed in an afterlife, even when he was old.

In Revelations, he thanked the heavens (God) for keeping his identity hidden. Ezio was either Protestant or Unitarian (the latter is more likely) but Ezio is not atheist. HE does believe in God, just not the way Christians did. Ezio realized that the Church became corrupt and had deviated from the true message.

From what I can tell, Ezio would be more of a Muslim instead of atheist, even though he never converted to Islam.

After killing Robert de Sable, when Altair said that God had nothing to do with it, he tried to mean that God had de Sable's death planned all along and that Altair would be the clear victor. The light mentioned by Altair in his codex is none but Satan, who deceives everyone into disbelief.

MustaviSadi
12-09-2015, 02:09 PM
Even after meeting with Minerva in 1499, Ezio realized that she was also created by God, and Ezio started to question whether the Bible was corrupted or not.

cawatrooper9
12-09-2015, 03:23 PM
Ezio was either Protestant or Unitarian (the latter is more likely) but Ezio is not atheist. HE does believe in God, just not the way Christians did. Ezio realized that the Church became corrupt and had deviated from the true message.


Considering that Protestantism and Unitarianism didn't really gain that much traction until near and after Ezio's life, I find that unlikely.

Considering the almost Lovecraftian view of the universe that Ezio must have due to his exposure to the First Civilization and its superiority, I'd imagine that if he was religious at all, his beliefs would be closer to something like Gnosticism.

Sushiglutton
12-09-2015, 03:34 PM
Isn't more logical to assume that by "There's no book or teacher to give you the answers" Ezio actually meant "NO book", rather than to assume that he meant: "Don't follow the Bible, follow the Quran instead"?

Hans684
12-09-2015, 05:26 PM
http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Assassinate_Tomás_Torquemada (AC: Discovery)

Ezio: You are a vile and pitiful man, Torquemada. And your alliance with the Spaniard has disqualified you from your God's love.
Torquemada: You dare to lecture me? I am the hammer of heretics, the light of España, the honor of my order. I follow none but God's command.
Ezio: All lies. Rodrigo Borgia is an unbeliever like me, and yet you lavish him with favors.
Torquemada: A fantastic tale, and a spurious one. Borgia is one of three Papal candidates this year. And he is as devoted to God as I am.
Ezio: There's no better hiding place than in the shadow of virtue. You are as blind to his evil as you are to yours.

cawatrooper9
12-09-2015, 05:32 PM
http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Assassinate_Tomás_Torquemada (AC: Discovery)

Ezio: You are a vile and pitiful man, Torquemada. And your alliance with the Spaniard has disqualified you from your God's love.
Torquemada: You dare to lecture me? I am the hammer of heretics, the light of España, the honor of my order. I follow none but God's command.
Ezio: All lies. Rodrigo Borgia is an unbeliever like me, and yet you lavish him with favors.
Torquemada: A fantastic tale, and a spurious one. Borgia is one of three Papal candidates this year. And he is as devoted to God as I am.
Ezio: There's no better hiding place than in the shadow of virtue. You are as blind to his evil as you are to yours.

Well, as long as that's canon, I guess it settles that.

Unless he's specifically referring to Roman Catholicism.

Hans684
12-09-2015, 05:48 PM
Well, as long as that's canon, I guess it settles that.

It is.


Unless he's specifically referring to Roman Catholicism.

Maybe, maybe not. It's not talked much about in the games.

Assassin_M
12-09-2015, 07:13 PM
Oh god, someone please lock this?

Altair was an atheist and Ezio was most likely a deist or monotheist.

I-Like-Pie45
12-09-2015, 07:15 PM
Oh god, someone please lock this?

Altair was an atheist and Ezio was most likely a deist or monotheist.
Indeed its time we started asking more important questions like

if Ezio was living today, would he drink Coke or Pepsi or what side would he hang his toilet paper from

cawatrooper9
12-09-2015, 07:43 PM
Indeed its time we started asking more important questions like

if Ezio was living today, would he drink Coke or Pepsi or what side would he hang his toilet paper from

Or, apparently, if Evie is a virgin...

Seriously though, I still can't believe people took one of the few realistic-ish portrayals of women in gaming and immediately tried to objectify her here...

D.I.D.
12-09-2015, 07:56 PM
When Ezio said that there was no book to lead the wat, he meant that the Bible had become corrupted and that the Bible could no longer be trusted. Ezio still believed in an afterlife, even when he was old.

In Revelations, he thanked the heavens (God) for keeping his identity hidden. Ezio was either Protestant or Unitarian (the latter is more likely) but Ezio is not atheist. HE does believe in God, just not the way Christians did. Ezio realized that the Church became corrupt and had deviated from the true message.

From what I can tell, Ezio would be more of a Muslim instead of atheist, even though he never converted to Islam.

After killing Robert de Sable, when Altair said that God had nothing to do with it, he tried to mean that God had de Sable's death planned all along and that Altair would be the clear victor. The light mentioned by Altair in his codex is none but Satan, who deceives everyone into disbelief.

I've never believed in any god, but I still sometimes use phrases like "Thank God for that". It doesn't mean much. Ezio makes clear statements that he doesn't credit any religion as being right, and as for a belief in a god... After what he'd seen, you'd expect him to reaffirm a belief in any god pretty firmly if he still counted on that as being true, but he doesn't at all.

Why pick Islam, yet another Abrahamic religion? It's very close to the others. If he was going to retain any belief system, why not a generalist spirituality such as Buddhism? It would make a lot more sense for an assassin ("Nothing is true, everything is permitted").

Satan's role in all Abrahamic religions is overblown. Islam has the advantage of coming 500 years later than Christianity and was able to absorb some of the post-Christian cultural lore that had sprung up since the books were written, which itself seems to be born from Jewish folklore to comfort Judaism's believers. Originally, this Adversary is just not that big a deal. People turned it into one, much like they changed what "heaven" means in ways that aren't supported by the books.

I get the impression you're a believer, but I think you ought to allow Ezio to not be like you. He can still be a hero, if you need him to be that. I love all kinds of characters who are believers in celestial figures, and I don't try to strip them of that (Paolo Baldi, Cadfael, Enishte Effendi in "My Name is Red", Xuanzang in "Journey to the West", Father James in "Calvary"). A character's spiritual life or lack of it is often a key part of what makes them tick - I wouldn't try to bend them into some other shape to suit me.

MustaviSadi
12-09-2015, 08:05 PM
Who told you that? Altair himself?

D.I.D.
12-09-2015, 08:22 PM
I'm not going to have an argument with you if you want an angry one. Quite happy to talk over it intellectually with supported assertions, if you wish.

Suffice it to say that you've mentioned Protestantism and Unitarianism for Ezio when both of these are impossible, beginning as they did after Ezio's death.

MustaviSadi
12-09-2015, 08:23 PM
Ezio still believed in God. AC2 Discovery conflicts with AC 2 somewhat. Then it

The Creed is not meant to be taken literally. As Ezio stated:

To say that nothing is true, is to realize that the foundations of society are fragile, and that we must be the shepherds of our own civilization. To say that everything is permitted, is to understand that we are the architects of our actions, and that we must live with their consequences, whether glorious or tragic.

Also, the first tenet of the Assassins states to never kill an innocent. Surah-al-Maidah, Ch-5, Verse 32 states the same.

The third tenet of the Assassins states to not compromise the Brotherhood. Surah-al-Anfat, Ch-8, Verse 27 states to not betray the trust of God, his Prophets and Messengers and those we are sworn to protect and love as a brotherhood.

Violating any of these rulings in both Islam and the Assassin Brotherhood can result in a death sentence.

Also, Islam states that we alone ourselves are responsible for our actions, whether good or bad, and that we have to answer for our deeds to God Almighty and pay for it one day.

I am not trying to make Ezio look like me. It's in his qualities. Ezio was still not convinced after what he had seen in the Vatican Vault.

If you don't believe in God, then there is no need to take His name. Why do the Assassins still prefer burial instead of cremation still? Why do most of them believe in God even after meeting the First Civilization?

If They Came Before Us, who created them, then? God Almighty.

Assassins believe in an afterlife, not Buddhism.

The Creed is not a grant of permission. It does not declare all truth to be false. Suppose, if it were literal, would it be true that poison killed? No. That is why the Creed is a warning. It commands us to be wise.

MustaviSadi
12-09-2015, 08:24 PM
Ezio still believed in God. AC2 Discovery conflicts with AC 2 somewhat. Then we see that Ezio is startled to know that Rodrigo is a disbeliever.

When Altair said that God had nothing to do with Robert's death, Altair knew and accepted that God existed. So how is Altair atheist when he accepts the existence of God and knows it for a fact even after the Apple told him everything?

The Creed is not meant to be taken literally. As Ezio stated:

To say that nothing is true, is to realize that the foundations of society are fragile, and that we must be the shepherds of our own civilization. To say that everything is permitted, is to understand that we are the architects of our actions, and that we must live with their consequences, whether glorious or tragic.

Also, the first tenet of the Assassins states to never kill an innocent. Surah-al-Maidah, Ch-5, Verse 32 states the same.

The third tenet of the Assassins states to not compromise the Brotherhood. Surah-al-Anfat, Ch-8, Verse 27 states to not betray the trust of God, his Prophets and Messengers and those we are sworn to protect and love as a brotherhood.

Violating any of these rulings in both Islam and the Assassin Brotherhood can result in a death sentence.

Also, Islam states that we alone ourselves are responsible for our actions, whether good or bad, and that we have to answer for our deeds to God Almighty and pay for it one day.

I am not trying to make Ezio look like me. It's in his qualities. Ezio was still not convinced after what he had seen in the Vatican Vault.

If you don't believe in God, then there is no need to take His name. Why do the Assassins still prefer burial instead of cremation still? Why do most of them believe in God even after meeting the First Civilization?

If They Came Before Us, who created them, then? God Almighty.

Assassins believe in an afterlife, not Buddhism.

The Creed is not a grant of permission. It does not declare all truth to be false. Suppose, if it were literal, would it be true that poison killed? No. That is why the Creed is a warning. It commands us to be wise.

Assassin_M
12-09-2015, 08:25 PM
Who told you that? Altair himself?
Yup. Altair came in my sleep and told me himself.

If this isn't locked in 3 minutes, I'm gonna scream.

MustaviSadi
12-09-2015, 08:30 PM
The earliest trace of Protestantism goes back to the 12th century, back in the 1130s, with the start of the Arnoldists. Unitarianism specifically says about rejection of a trinity. If Unitarianism didn't exist at that time, then Ezio still dismissed the idea of a Trinity and believed in one God. Then Ezio found out that he met an ancient person believed to be a goddess. Ezio later threw aside the idolatry and took Minerva's words to be lies, except for Desmond's prophecy.

MustaviSadi
12-09-2015, 08:34 PM
Heh heh heh, Altair is not that stupid. Besides, it could also be a devil. Screaming won't help however, and you'll only lose your voice in the process. Why did Altair state that God did exist and yet he said that the light the people see is blinding? In dreams, Satan can take the form of a light or magnificent creature and will start claiming to be God and that the previous laws have been changed. People would believe and would be led astray, because God is not to be seen in this life and when His message comes down, it's final. No changing it.

cawatrooper9
12-09-2015, 08:35 PM
I think we can all agree that all of the Assassins have been Scientologists, and that they love Katie Holmes.

MustaviSadi
12-09-2015, 08:42 PM
Yet they believed in one entity that created them all. Science is not their work, freedom is. Islam also gives the freedom to choose. If we can't have all the freedom, then at least we must have the freedom to choose. It is what makes us human. It is what makes us the highest of creation.

D.I.D.
12-09-2015, 08:43 PM
Buddhism is entirely about life beyond the one we see, and covers various forms of afterlife, including Hell realms. It allows for the existence of gods, but sees them as another manner of being.

Many Buddhists even reject the notion of their path as a "religion" and prefer to call it a belief system or a philosophy instead. The whole approach to it is very suitable for the questioning side of the fictional Order. If I was forced to choose a Christian sect with which they'd have most in common, I'd be looking at the Cathars or the Quakers but a Christian who had seen what Ezio saw would be hard pushed to still believe in a god after that. There'd be some serious mental wrestling, and we see none. Ezio takes to this new reality with little difficulty, aside from the obvious astonishment about seeing the visions.

There's no doubt whatsoever that AC1's assaiyun are a Muslim sect. I love that. It makes perfect sense that the writers tried to preserve and incorporate some of what the real group would have thought and rolled it into the assassins' books. But there's nothing to tell them they must believe in any god, and in fact it suggests the opposite: question everything, interrogate everything. That's very much like Buddhists and Jainists. As for why they bury or cremate the dead: well, what are the other options here? This leaves letting corpses fester or feeding them to wildlife. Few cultures have ever done that. Burial and cremation are pretty standard for obvious reasons.

You can have your head canon where your God created the First Civ and then they created us, but I'm not sure why you want it. It means God made a massive error of judgement that's lasted for longer than humankind, and they had the power to deposit the means to reach into the coming centuries and mess with God's hold even further. Just let it be an alternative universe where things happened differently. It is that, anyway. It's got no more need to involve creator gods than Star Wars.

SixKeys
12-09-2015, 09:52 PM
Lol, Ezio may be up for debate but Altaïr being an atheist is a FACT. His Codex makes it very clear. He may have started out as a Muslim in AC1 (or maybe not, it's never really explored) but if he ever had faith, he lost it after seeing all the visions about the First Civ through the Apple.

Assassin_M
12-09-2015, 10:13 PM
Heh heh heh, Altair is not that stupid. Besides, it could also be a devil. Screaming won't help however, and you'll only lose your voice in the process. Why did Altair state that God did exist and yet he said that the light the people see is blinding? In dreams, Satan can take the form of a light or magnificent creature and will start claiming to be God and that the previous laws have been changed. People would believe and would be led astray, because God is not to be seen in this life and when His message comes down, it's final. No changing it.
Man, I'm a Muslim too and while I do respect your strong conviction and want to project our belief system into your favorite characters, you don't really have to do that. Video games are works of fiction, they don't work like the real world and that's totally fine, it's not blasphemy nor disbelief. What you're doing is only going to attract people who know nothing about Islam and give their own interpretations, which this is really not the place for.

Altair was an atheist. His dialogue in AC I proves it and his codex proves it. Ezio was most likely catholic up until the fight with Rodrigo, or at least a monotheist, at which point he most likely retained some sort of deist belief in a non-guiding God.

Farlander1991
12-09-2015, 11:38 PM
One must not forget that the disclaimer at the beginning of AC, about it being created by a multicultural team of various religions, faiths and beliefs, exists because of the general antitheistic (for a lack of better word, though I don't mean in a sense of it being negative about beliefs) notions of the stories and the beliefs of the characters themselves that we're to identify with.

Altair openly states that he doesn't believe, Ezio does so as well (albeit in a spin-off game), and there's nothing wrong with that.

Mr.Black24
12-10-2015, 02:41 AM
Altair is atheist. Ezio seems like he is agnostic at best. Atheist is also plausible too.

Sesheenku
12-10-2015, 04:52 AM
All assassins/templars are atheist. I mean they know the pieces of Eden are how Jesus made miracles. They know the first civ are the creators of humanity.

Fatal-Feit
12-10-2015, 08:12 AM
All assassins/templars are atheist. I mean they know the pieces of Eden are how Jesus made miracles. They know the first civ are the creators of humanity.

That's not true. Both Assassins and Templars are open to religion (although, I wish they weren't...). Eseosa from Initiates was spiritual and believed in god.

MustaviSadi
12-10-2015, 08:32 AM
All assassins/templars are atheist. I mean they know the pieces of Eden are how Jesus made miracles. They know the first civ are the creators of humanity.

No. The Templars believe in the Father of Understanding as their God.
The Assassins believe in the afterlife and that they will be punished for their sins by the One Creator.

Ezio was not agnostic. He just worshipped God in his own way. He was not convinced by Minerva at all. Except for Desmond's prophecy.

Why do you think the term "We work in the dark to serve the light" is used? Because the light is God.

Besides, you say that Altair is atheist, but did Altair really believe it in his own mind? Even he had doubts. Because he knew that we were here for a purpose. He knew that something just could not be created out of nothing. He believed in heliocentrism.

Is there any material proof that the First Civ created us? They tell lies to deceive us and exploit us. You do know that the Pieces of Eden can turn thought to reality. SO, the Red Sea really was parted, water never turned to wine, but blood. The staff turned into a snake and back. Jesus (peace be upon him), even if he used the Shroud, was of pure heart. Also, how can the dead come back to life even with the Shroud when it is literally impossible?

You need to be of pure heart to use the Shroud well. In Starrick's case, he became corrupted by its powers soon enough because he was not of pure heart

cawatrooper9
12-10-2015, 03:25 PM
No. The Templars believe in the Father of Understanding as their God.
The Assassins believe in the afterlife and that they will be punished for their sins by the One Creator.

Ezio was not agnostic. He just worshipped God in his own way. He was not convinced by Minerva at all. Except for Desmond's prophecy.

Why do you think the term "We work in the dark to serve the light" is used? Because the light is God.

Besides, you say that Altair is atheist, but did Altair really believe it in his own mind? Even he had doubts. Because he knew that we were here for a purpose. He knew that something just could not be created out of nothing. He believed in heliocentrism.

Is there any material proof that the First Civ created us? They tell lies to deceive us and exploit us. You do know that the Pieces of Eden can turn thought to reality. SO, the Red Sea really was parted, water never turned to wine, but blood. The staff turned into a snake and back. Jesus (peace be upon him), even if he used the Shroud, was of pure heart. Also, how can the dead come back to life even with the Shroud when it is literally impossible?

You need to be of pure heart to use the Shroud well. In Starrick's case, he became corrupted by its powers soon enough because he was not of pure heart

I don't mind different character interpretations, but you're really stretching here and making some wild assumptions...

Farlander1991
12-10-2015, 04:10 PM
I don't mind different character interpretations, but you're really stretching here and making some wild assumptions...

If we'd have an assassin fart somewhere in the game, that person would be able to justify it as assassin's belief in god because that fart was sent by the almighty. That's how farfetched some of those arguments are.

D.I.D.
12-10-2015, 04:16 PM
No. The Templars believe in the Father of Understanding as their God.
The Assassins believe in the afterlife and that they will be punished for their sins by the One Creator.

We don't yet know what The Father Of Understanding is. It might be a purely cynical device to comfort people brought in from other religions, it might be a genuinely felt belief in a god, or it might not even be god. It might be that a First Civ figure has appeared to Templars in the past, such as perhaps Consus who we know encoded and uploaded his consciousness into at least one PoE or possibly more. Maybe Jupiter appeared to them like he's appeared to our protagonists, or some other male First Civ person.

The Assassins have never, as a group, been shown to believe in an afterlife or that they'll be punished for sins by any creator.


Ezio was not agnostic. He just worshipped God in his own way. He was not convinced by Minerva at all. Except for Desmond's prophecy.

He was 100% convinced! He was begging the visions to remain to answer more questions, told others what he'd seen.

You've never seen Ezio worship any god, not once. He's never had a problem doing deeply sacrilegious things (whether or not he believes in a particular sect, you'd think he'd not ride roughshod over their sacred spaces without consideration).


Why do you think the term "We work in the dark to serve the light" is used? Because the light is God.

And a few posts ago you said the light was Satan, so I'd say you're just making anything mean what you want it to mean. "The light" stands for many things metaphorically, including "the truth" (hence terms like "le Siècle des Lumières", "The Enlightenment", for the intellectual renaissance of reason over superstition) which is something the assassins definitely prize .


Besides, you say that Altair is atheist, but did Altair really believe it in his own mind? Even he had doubts. Because he knew that we were here for a purpose. He knew that something just could not be created out of nothing. He believed in heliocentrism.

So it's a short skip and a jump to say he believed in a god? Well no, it's the most enormous of leaps. I don't think most of what you just said is true, but let's suppose it is; why is that anything more than a man who lacks knowledge in the sciences?


Is there any material proof that the First Civ created us?

A religious person is asking for material proof of creation. Oh my.


They tell lies to deceive us and exploit us. You do know that the Pieces of Eden can turn thought to reality. SO, the Red Sea really was parted, water never turned to wine, but blood. The staff turned into a snake and back. Jesus (peace be upon him), even if he used the Shroud, was of pure heart. Also, how can the dead come back to life even with the Shroud when it is literally impossible?

Yeah, they might be tricking us. Part of me hopes they are. However, if they are then they're tricking us via technology that's incredibly powerful. It's not opening a window to the future so they can talk to us, but predicting the future so that the First Civ could leave messages that sound like conversations. That's serious power. They've encoded the DNA of one of their own into our entire species so that occasionally the genes recombine with the same face in the Sages. Juno encoded in the Temple Walls, Consus in the prototype shroud. All the PoEs we've seen and heard about in the present day.

Of course, ALL of that might be a trick. Maybe the Templars made it all up and infected all Animus technology whether Assassin-built or Templar-built with the necessary data to commit this immense fraud. It would make a joke of the entire plot, though - the sci-fi equivalent of "it was all a dream".

The Shroud specifically does not bring people back to life. It's even picky about which injuries it'll heal. Gunshot wounds to the head work if the wearer is in the Shroud already, but you can't bring a dead body to the Shroud and resurrect the person. It seems that you're enforcing a religious logic, however: that people coming back from the dead is impossible, therefore if they have, God must have done it. In a fantasy, whether it's Dracula or some more benign character like Doctor Who, returning from death is just a device writers can use in any way they like because creativity is fun. No god is needed for that.


You need to be of pure heart to use the Shroud well. In Starrick's case, he became corrupted by its powers soon enough because he was not of pure heart

No you don't. The scientist from the Helix data is anything but pure of heart, and he uses the Shroud perfectly day after day and has easy conversations with the being inside.

Why would a First Civ technology require "purity of heart", and where are you getting this from?

Sushiglutton
12-10-2015, 04:32 PM
I'm actually trying to study Islam atm so it's interesting to read Mustavi's posts as they reflect some of the core ideas. For example the corrupted Bible, Satan who deceives people to disbelief, the (hopeful) verse 5:32, the oneness of God (rejection of trinity), Ezio threwing aside idolatry (it's pretty clear from the Quaran that idolatry is not a recomended hobby). Just to be clear I'm an unbeliever and am not going to convert any time soon :). Just wanna understand the world a bit better. I'm curious about the connection between faith and current events. I'm still a super noob and the texts are very difficult for me to read. But it's fascinating all the same.

D.I.D.
12-10-2015, 04:51 PM
Sushi, you might like this examination the the development of the Satan story through all the Abrahamic religions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8mKVnEp6WM

Also this:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1257w7_how-the-devil-got-his-horns-bbc-hd_school

MustaviSadi
12-10-2015, 05:50 PM
We don't yet know what The Father Of Understanding is. It might be a purely cynical device to comfort people brought in from other religions, it might be a genuinely felt belief in a god, or it might not even be god. It might be that a First Civ figure has appeared to Templars in the past, such as perhaps Consus who we know encoded and uploaded his consciousness into at least one PoE or possibly more. Maybe Jupiter appeared to them like he's appeared to our protagonists, or some other male First Civ person.

The Assassins have never, as a group, been shown to believe in an afterlife or that they'll be punished for sins by any creator.



He was 100% convinced! He was begging the visions to remain to answer more questions, told others what he'd seen.

You've never seen Ezio worship any god, not once. He's never had a problem doing deeply sacrilegious things (whether or not he believes in a particular sect, you'd think he'd not ride roughshod over their sacred spaces without consideration).



And a few posts ago you said the light was Satan, so I'd say you're just making anything mean what you want it to mean. "The light" stands for many things metaphorically, including "the truth" (hence terms like "le Siècle des Lumières", "The Enlightenment", for the intellectual renaissance of reason over superstition) which is something the assassins definitely prize .



So it's a short skip and a jump to say he believed in a god? Well no, it's the most enormous of leaps. I don't think most of what you just said is true, but let's suppose it is; why is that anything more than a man who lacks knowledge in the sciences?



A religious person is asking for material proof of creation. Oh my.



Yeah, they might be tricking us. Part of me hopes they are. However, if they are then they're tricking us via technology that's incredibly powerful. It's not opening a window to the future so they can talk to us, but predicting the future so that the First Civ could leave messages that sound like conversations. That's serious power. They've encoded the DNA of one of their own into our entire species so that occasionally the genes recombine with the same face in the Sages. Juno encoded in the Temple Walls, Consus in the prototype shroud. All the PoEs we've seen and heard about in the present day.

Of course, ALL of that might be a trick. Maybe the Templars made it all up and infected all Animus technology whether Assassin-built or Templar-built with the necessary data to commit this immense fraud. It would make a joke of the entire plot, though - the sci-fi equivalent of "it was all a dream".

The Shroud specifically does not bring people back to life. It's even picky about which injuries it'll heal. Gunshot wounds to the head work if the wearer is in the Shroud already, but you can't bring a dead body to the Shroud and resurrect the person. It seems that you're enforcing a religious logic, however: that people coming back from the dead is impossible, therefore if they have, God must have done it. In a fantasy, whether it's Dracula or some more benign character like Doctor Who, returning from death is just a device writers can use in any way they like because creativity is fun. No god is needed for that.



No you don't. The scientist from the Helix data is anything but pure of heart, and he uses the Shroud perfectly day after day and has easy conversations with the being inside.

Why would a First Civ technology require "purity of heart", and where are you getting this from?

Then Alvaro gets corrupted. Coming back from death is different. In the not-so-distant future, it will become possible to explore our ancestors' memories.

How can you be so sure that Ezio was 100% convinced? Ezio still found it hard to believe in Minerva's words, and even if all his questions were answered, he would be even more confused.

The light mentioned in Altair's codex is completely different from the light in the quote "We work in the dark to serve the light".

Nothing can come to this world without a source. So the Isu (First Civ) were created by God. Because in AC3, Juno states that there is someone she can never get away from because that someone's reach is beyond imagining. Someone she can never hide from. She also states that this "someone" can see all her activities and everyone else and their secrets. Juno thought that she could misguide that "someone", only to find out that it was beyond her or anyone else, as this "someone" is not like His creation.

Turns out, that "someone" is none other than God.

Ezio believed in an afterlife, as stated in the repressed memories. Ezio also hated cremation and death by burning. Even Islam prohibits cremation or punishment by fire.

The light can mean many things. In the Codex, the light talked about comes in our dreams, claiming to be God, but that is, in reality, Satan. That is because God cannot be seen in this life.

MustaviSadi
12-10-2015, 05:55 PM
In Islam, idolatry is strictly prohibited. Ezio dismissed the idea of Trinity. The oneness of God is written in Surah-al-Ikhlaas as a whole.

Hans684
12-10-2015, 05:58 PM
Locking this sounds more and more tempting, anyone wanna go off-topic?

MustaviSadi
12-10-2015, 05:59 PM
I get the idea of the Shroud being used flawlessly only by the pure of heart through Niccolo di Pitigliano's death of misusing the Shroud for evil deeds and personal gain.

Then Violet da Costa secretly works as a double agent for both Abstergo Templars and the Instruments of the First Will after wearing the Shroud to test its healing powers after being shot with a gun.

MustaviSadi
12-10-2015, 06:19 PM
You just can't be an Assassin and a Templar at the same time!

Unless you a double-agent.

MustaviSadi
12-10-2015, 06:20 PM
I wouldn't say that Dracula is dead, because his heart would still be beating when he became a vampire.

Alvaro was nearly dead, the damaged Shroud saved his life.

Hans684
12-10-2015, 06:58 PM
You just can't be an Assassin and a Templar at the same time!

Unless you a double-agent.

Great, off topic.

You actually can. Each order can has a side that's close to a middle ground where they can merge. Basically unity between both and their ideals, Haytham wrote several letters on the priceples needed. He valued control and freedom and was fighting for peace. It's not a contraction at all, unless you're a fanatic with black and white view along with blind following of the side causing you to not doubt and question it at all, that can't see past a title. A self-destructive fool or a child.

MustaviSadi
12-10-2015, 07:28 PM
Well then, that would be a good way to spy on the Templars and then secretly report back to the Assassins. Which side do you prefer anyway?

Templars and Assassins fighting over freedom and order when they should unite together to defeat Juno. We must not fight. We must unite because Juno will enslave even the Templars, not only Assassins.

ze_topazio
12-10-2015, 07:43 PM
Anonymous can take care of Juno better than the Templars and Assassins ever could.


I'm sure that as far as religion goes Ezio is a Pastafarian.

Assassin_M
12-10-2015, 07:59 PM
Congrats, mate, you just managed to make a fool out of yourself, Islam and religion, as if people needed another excuse. Well done.

Now, can someone please lock this stupid thread?

VestigialLlama4
12-10-2015, 08:10 PM
I agree. Lock this thread. There's pretty much nothing more to be said about this topic anyway.

cawatrooper9
12-10-2015, 08:13 PM
Or we could just ignore him... :p

Assassin_M
12-10-2015, 08:18 PM
Or we could just ignore him... :p
Oh noooooo, people like you and others, sure, but some people are just bent on arguing religion whenever the excuse crops up. I didn't even start this thread to argue atheism or anything, I was just curious what AC II: DIscovery said that portrayed Ezio as an atheist because I hadn't played it.

cawatrooper9
12-10-2015, 08:20 PM
Oh noooooo, people like you and others, sure, but some people are just bent on arguing religion whenever the excuse crops up. I didn't even start this thread to argue atheism or anything, I was just curious what AC II: DIscovery said that portrayed Ezio as an atheist because I hadn't played it.

Sure, I'm just saying, there's apparently only one person right now who apparently doesn't want this thread to just die- if we stop responding, it'll probably go away. It's worth a shot.

And with that, as a gesture of good faith, I'm out.

YazX_
12-10-2015, 08:24 PM
Enough - Locked.