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DreamMarine
03-10-2006, 03:49 AM
I have one big problem with most of the discussions in this forum: They are all from the viewpoint of R6 experts!

If we want to draw in "new audiences" and get R6 more attractive for new players, we have to reconsider some things seriously. This is particularly true for the MP gameplay, which tends to be more attracting for expert players than for newbies!

When i raised this matter in other threads, strangely enough, i get ignored by most people here. Why might that be? Because the matter "newbies" is a taboo? Because some people dread to think about other perspectives than the expert perspective?

Anyway, i outline here one last time again, what i think that it is the MOST important aspect of R6 MP if you want to make it more attractive to new players and players from other games:

<span class="ev_code_RED">Reduce frustration in R6:5 multiplayer for newbies and not so experienced players!!!</span>

I can't stress that point often enough. For me, it is ALWAYS exactly THAT point, when i think: "Hey, why should i play a game, where i almost always get killed within seconds by MP freaks? (hope, this expression is no offense in english)

I tell you: Most people WILL leave the game soon, because they are too frustrated!!! They won't tell the truth here in the forum, they won't tell anybody, they will just DISAPPEAR and go on to another game!

<span class="ev_code_RED">I even know of people who didn't DARE to try a FPS MP game, because of this lack of chances against MP freaks.</span>

That perspecetive might be off the limit to some expert players, but it is a very IMPORTANT one, if we want that R6 grows and gets a bigger community.

Who of you played WoW? Think of a WoW, where high-level characters can attack EVERY low-level character from the other fraction. WoW would NEVER have reached that popularity, just because most new players would give up the game, because they would get constantly killed from high-level players!

afaik, WoW has two kinds of servers: One, where you play as described above, and the other where you can't be attacked by other players, except, YOU decide to. The later protects low level players from high-level players.


In the following, i will list the answers, i usually get to my point of view - and what i think about these answers:


<span class="ev_code_RED">1) Newbies can learn from watching how the expert players play</span>

Come on, i learn more by playing than watching OTHER players play. Of course, continuously i leran the one or other trick by watching, but this should not be the rule. And it takes a very long time to train, until i have the experience and dexterity of expert players. That is no fun, that is hard training!!!

And i believe, that a computer game should be FUN in first place!


<span class="ev_code_RED">2) Newbies can go to a newbie server</span>

Sorry, i have never seen a dedicated newbie server. And as soon as one single expert player enters the server, he will slaughter the newbie players. Correct me, if i am wrong!


<span class="ev_code_RED">3) Newbies can host there own newbie game</span>

Oh my god! This is a typically geek answer! If i am a newbie, i just want to play, without achieving knowledge of hosting my own server! Welcome to reality!


<span class="ev_code_RED">4) Newbies can join a clan</span>

This advice it not so bad, but again i doubt, that a newbie wants to join a clan from the start. There are a lot of casual players, who just want to play for an evening from time to time. Or they want to play a while, before they want to decide which clan they want to join.


<span class="ev_code_RED">5) Newbies just have to accept the game as it is</span>

Keep on thinking that way, and R6 will not draw in very much of "new audiences"!


<span class="ev_code_RED">6) Other answers like: "It worked with us, so why shouldn't it work for others." "You have to learn it the hard way." and so on.</span>

Come on, don't forget that playing R6 should be fun at first place for most people. Of course, there is also the aspect of training, learning and contest. But even this should be FUN after all.


We have to get away from that kind of "elite club thinking", that some obviously have. The most potentiel of reaching new players lies in all those newbies out there... not so much in expert players!!!

Let's don't be so selfish and egocentric. Let's look for ways to make R6 MP more fun for newbies!!!


<span class="ev_code_RED">Some suggestions from myself:</span>

1) Introduce that kind of "honor" from AA. So you have a measure of expertize. Just one account per player, administrated on the UBI server.

Then implement the possibility to constrain the players to some servers to certain "honor-levels". So, an expert player cannot enter a server for newbies. (Strangely, this method is well accepted the other way around)

2) I don't think that respawn is the right solution. MAYBE in coop modes, but NOT in competion modes.

R6 actually SHOULD keep that feeling of fear of getting killed. But we have to increase the chance for newbies, that they will survive.

3) Keep the "honor"-levels of players automatically evenly distributed to the different teams. There should not be one expert team and one newbie team. i.e. some team members get transfered to the other team automatically to implement this.

4) To reach "honor"-points, always the whole TEAM should accomplish the objectives, not single players. And all the players should get those honor points. Maybe the player, who has reached an objective could get a small bonus amount of points. (just like in AA)

5) Certain selfish actions like team kills and maybe others should result in a decrement in "honor" points.

<span class="ev_code_RED">I suggest, that all these features get implemented with the possibility to turn them off if wished. BUT if there are official servers for R5:6, some of them should use these features.</span>


Maybe you come up with more and even better features to make R6:MP more appealing for newbies!


By the way, the honor-point-system of AA is one big step into the right direction. But AA still suffers from MP freaks dominating the games. When i happend to experience one of those rare occasions where i played with only players about my honor leve, i had MUCH more fun than usual!!!


This thread is not meant as an offense in any way!!!

I am just getting tired of listening to some dozens of experienced players, who think that everybody should play MP as they like to. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


DreamMarine

Woosy
03-10-2006, 05:03 AM
I think it should be left as it is, with every game that comes out there is a learning curve to master, it just takes time. The honor systemn in AA was a good concept in theory but realy bad in practice, there is alot of balance issues regarding that honor system.

If they get upset that it's too hard, there is always co-op to play, which they can learn the basics then go back to adversial and get used to playing real people. Playing real people is a challenge and there will always be someone better then you, the only thing you as a player can do is try try and try again till you get better, practise makes pefect.

T2RVS
03-10-2006, 07:47 AM
Hey dream counter strike source is the game you should go for, what you wanted it got almost most of it there. If not try bf2!!! they are both to your requirements.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

Yen Lo
03-10-2006, 08:00 AM
Alot of it has to do with the amount of time some of us invested in this series, and these forums. Some of us were here when this place( the R6 forums) were completely dead and people like you decided it wasnt important enough to join.

Mystafyi
03-10-2006, 08:04 AM
The guy has a huge point, lets not just pass it off as noob talk. In order for a community to flourish and work well we need new players. By throwing someone new into a harsh enviroment we alienate them, one by destroying them fast over and over, two by calling them noob, newibe or whatever. There are great tools now availble from a major company that ubi deals with(nda must shush) that can measure every aspect of the players experaince, on and offline. This way we can judge the players skill level, and categorize players accordingly. And by presenting it in the begging of the menu Ui of MP in a non obtrusive easy to understanding way, we can get the new players to select a skill based server selection- where the servers would get ranked based on the level of skills of the players inside. This would also provide a good way for those players who arnt the best of the best to not get squashed by MiN players or who ever else.

Nice one mate, these are the ideas that we need. Not stop dumbing it down.

KungFu_CIA
03-10-2006, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by T2RVS:
Hey dream counter strike source is the game you should go for, what you wanted it got almost most of it there. If not try bf2!!! they are both to your requirements.


Originally posted by Yen Lo:
Alot of it has to do with the amount of time some of us invested in this series, and these forums. Some of us were here when this place( the R6 forums) were completely dead and people like you decided it wasnt important enough to join.

This is the kind of elitist attitude DreamMarine is talking about... And this is just on a forum, let alone how people conduct themselves in a live MP game.

DreamMarine is, I assume, not talking about "dumbing down" the game to be like Lockdown, or Counter-Strike. What he is saying is even a game like R6 needs to find ways to be more beginner friendly, especially, in MP, as this is the life-blood of most computer games and what helps not only the series continue to grow, but the community as well.

........

DreamMarine:

You bring up a very good topic.

The "future" of video games is person vs. person multiplayer. The rise of "E-Sports" is only reinforcing this as well.

MP is what sustains a game in the long run and is the area which most developers focus on now because they know this is the largest and most vocal group who has the potential to generate ongoing sales well after the peak sales period of a game has ended.

The bigger issue all of your points raise, however, is something no one can change, in my opinion, and that is a lot of times the main reason MP games are frustrating for beginners is not because of the game itself. It is the people who play the game (which you alluded to indirectly) more than anything.

For example, video games have the Catch-22 of a lot of older adults playing them especially, on the PC... But video games main target demographic is still teens and early 20somethings who aren't very mature a lot of times and like to "rage" against other players because they are going through puberty; they know they can get away with it; who are just jerks online because they can be; etc.

This is one aspect older adults and younger players who are more mature than others have to learn to deal with because there is no solution to this problem... Other than play with people you know, or get to know through the course of learning the game afer you venture into MP for the first time.

However, I also agree game developers should take a semi-proactive approach to at least try and make MP more beginner friendly with some of the things you suggested and which have proven to work in other games like the Honor System in AA, team (skill) balance plug-ins, encouraging team scores vs. individual K/D ratios, etc. and other methods.

I think all MP-centric games should include "bots" (AI Players) so new players can train offline and get to know the maps, gametypes and generally how to play the game before they venture online.

This way they will at least have the basic gameplay mechanics down as well as map knowledge which is half the learning curve right there. After being in a game with real people for a while, they will see what strategies work and just "automatically" start to emulate them through repetition, I.E. if a team rushes to point A, then the player will rush with them. If at point A, they spam the area with grenades, the player will just follow suit if it results in kills or thinning out the other teams ranks, etc.

I also think bots are a good thing to have to allow a lot more "focused" training as a player can focus on particular aspects which they can't during a real, online game such as improving their aim with different weapons, movement tactics, experimenting with different approaches to certain points on a map, etc... Again, without the pressure of not being able to make a "newbie" mistake because it doesn't matter in an offline environment like this.

Bots also have the added benefit of helping new players learn at their own pace since this is also a big factor in MP gaming as well. People's learning curves are different and also effected by forces outside the game like having limited free time to "train" due to real life committments and other aspects you already mentioned.

DreamMarine
03-10-2006, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by KungFu_CIA:
DreamMarine is, I assume, not talking about "dumbing down" the game to be like Lockdown, or Counter-Strike. What he is saying is even a game like R6 needs to find ways to be more beginner friendly, especially, in MP, as this is the life-blood of most computer games and what helps not only the series continue to grow, but the community as well.



PERFECT!

That's exactly what i mean - there is all in one sentence! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

To make this clear: I love R6. I bought and played all parts (except LD), and it is my absolute favorite game. It really drags me in, because i am a big fan of that elite troops theme. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I want - as probably all of you, too - that R6 stays tactical and with that feeling of reality. Therefore, for example, i am against respawning - even it that MIGHT make it a little bit more newbie-friendly.

We have to look for other, better ways! Those tools Mystafyi talked about and the idea with the bots from KungFu_CIA definitily go to the right direction, imho!

Always keep in mind, that casual players might not long to become one of the best. They just want to enjoy tactical gameplay against real opponents on a relative low level! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Thx for your feedback!

subzero1900
03-10-2006, 09:29 AM
ok heres an idea, Lets make areas specifically desginated for Noobs with floating pink ballons, and instead of guns they throw marshmellows at each other, when they get hit they have to ride a Pony through the forest of gumdrops and watch out for the Evil black locorish.

Sarcasm Aside.


THROW THAT IDEA OF RESPAWN RIGHT OUT THE WINDOW

New Idea

Paintball training sessions online.
www.airakon.com (http://www.airakon.com) for simulation paintball markers (guns is not the right term)
Only people playing training can use them.
They can take like 5-6 shots instead of the elitest 1-3 and that would aid them
They can see the slower moving paintballs (300 FPS vrs the speed of sound)

Would this not aid them?

would providing a Lineant Damage model not Aid them?

Or offline MP bots
that roam around the map randomly searching out players...able to set the difficulty of them and improve as much as possible before going online.

Theres only so much you can do before skill dies and every one no matter who is just rolling a dice to see what results, and that game to me isnt fun, thats board games, if they cant take the time to improve their abilitys offline or in MP-coop then they shouldnt be playing PC/Console games, they should go back to Monopoly

DreamMarine
03-10-2006, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by subzero1900:
ok heres an idea, Lets make areas specifically desginated for Noobs with floating pink ballons, and instead of guns they throw marshmellows at each other, when they get hit they have to ride a Pony through the forest of gumdrops and watch out for the Evil black locorish.



I love that dude! He's really funny! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Yen Lo
03-10-2006, 10:02 AM
ROFL Sub those are great ideas, and if you offend anyone then you get sentenced to watching 10 episodes of Oprah with Dr. Phil, and Barney!

DreamMarine
03-11-2006, 12:29 AM
By the way: Did I mention that a lot of MP expert players are a miserable failure at SP and COOP? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Relenquish
03-11-2006, 03:40 AM
I think helping new people become better at the game, and not scaring them away is completely a win win situation.

The plus sides include better competition in general gaming, and all in all it raises the fun of the game for everyone.

Also it is more profitable for ubi as it gains more followers who will buy the next in the squell.

The hard bit is how.

The honor system is kind of flawed as you will always get some ******* who get around it, just so they can kill new players. Generally these guys will be complete *******s and will not paint a nice picture to new players.
For example keeping your honor down though tks and other methods.

The paint ball thing is nice, but i see a few problems. Who is going to host the servers? New people wont be finding out how to while they are still learning. It would have to be paid for by some one.

Offline bots will never be like real people. It could help a bit, but I dont think it will work that well. And its a huge effort to make the bots work just for MP newcomers. I really dont see it happening. No offline game I have played comes anywhere near to representing online play. Even games like UT where SP is made to be similar, the is still a huge difference there.

I think someone also mentioned learning in coop. Now these game types are completely different. 1 you should run and gun in. The other you shouldnt. And thats just one of a million other differences.

Well that just leaves the marshmellows

Dane175
03-11-2006, 05:19 AM
In response to the original poster:

If the game is made so that newbies can hop right in their first time and compete with people that play every day, then it wouldn't even be fun. There would be no point to practice and get better. The competition aspect would be completely ruined. You want to ruin the games competitive aspect, just because you don't want to get killed so easily and refuse to practice. What makes a good game is the huge skill gap from the worst of the worst player to the very best player in the world. Without that gap, it's just more luck based, and less skill based.

SODsniper
03-11-2006, 05:45 AM
I have said it before and I will say it again.

When one starts trying to appeal to everyone, they end up appealing to no one.

Don't get me wrong. I am sure that there are games out there that can be fun for beginners and advanced players. TWISTER comes to mind. Rock'Em Sock'Em Robots probably could.

But we are talking an FPTS. A First Person TACTICAL Shooter. The only way I can see such a game appealing to the casual gamer who just wants to kill people (virtually speaking, of course) and the the serious Tac Gamer who really wants to get into the tactics of the game, is to have ADMIN capabilities of setting up a "beginner" game server and an "advanced" game server.

Let me repeat that.

The **ONLY** way it could work is if you make it an GAME ADMIN option.

If you try to FORCE a dumbed down version on the advanced Tac player types, well..... We have seen what happens when THAT card is played.

If you try to force an advanced TAC version on the Noobs, you won't attract the new people you want.

The simplest, easiest and most effective method is to allow Game Admins to craft their OWN noob server, or their own advanced server. If you give Game Admins the option, they WILL create the server that their people want. Whether those people are noobs or advanced.

Think of it as a football game. Normal every day Joes would NOT have fun playing in a football game against the Jacksonville Jaguars. If you changed the game so that the Joes would have fun, the Jags would be bored outta their skulls.

But, if you have a game where BOTH teams are everyday Joes and a seperate game where BOTH teams are professional football players, then EVERYONE has fun...

You don't change the game to suit one group. You give Game Admins the ability to MAKE the games that suit the groups.

THAT is how you please everyone.

DreamMarine
03-11-2006, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by Relenquish:
I think helping new people become better at the game, and not scaring them away is completely a win win situation.

The plus sides include better competition in general gaming, and all in all it raises the fun of the game for everyone.

Also it is more profitable for ubi as it gains more followers who will buy the next in the squell.

The hard bit is how.


EXACTLY!!!



Originally posted by Dane175:
You want to ruin the games competitive aspect, just because you don't want to get killed so easily and refuse to practice. What makes a good game is the huge skill gap from the worst of the worst player to the very best player in the world.


I am always amazed again how unobjective people can become with this matter. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Of course, I love the competitive aspect of this game just as much as you. And I am sure, this is true for EVERY MP player of R6 - experts and newbies. I mean: Hey guys - this game is a SHOOTER... therefore a kind of "war game". HOW could that NOT be about competition.

I did never say to take away the competitive aspect from R6 MP. But I want to compete against players or in a way, so that i have a reasonable chance. As somewhere else I said before: You would not let a yellow belt in karate compete against a black belt. That's no fun for either of them. (Except, if the black belt just wants to beat up somebody... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )



Originally posted by SODsniper:
The simplest, easiest and most effective method is to allow Game Admins to craft their OWN noob server, or their own advanced server. If you give Game Admins the option, they WILL create the server that their people want. Whether those people are noobs or advanced.


To a certain degree I agree with SODsniper. But I would go one step further:

The admin must have the possibility to restrict the server to players of a certain range of expertise. (To stick with the karate example: yellow belts should compete against yellow belts - or maybe even orange belts. Brown and black belts should compete with fighters of their expertise)


I can't see, where this takes away fun from MP gameplay! Actually, i truly believe, that this would increase massively the fun for everybody:

- Expert players get a real challenge and don't have to get annoyed by newbies.

- Newbie players get exactly the right measure of competitiveness and don't get frustrated by expert players they have no chance against.


DreamMarine

Woosy
03-11-2006, 06:14 AM
Certain game modes require respawns, those like CTF and Domination I think most people would agree if they where on those game modes "only" no problem, it's when they can be applied to other modes like TDM, Bomb defusal, VIP etc, it takes the edge away.

I can only use Counter-Strike as an example I guess...The modes are Hostage rescue or bomb defusal, I've never ever seen respawns on that game, even though you can do it. The reason why it's like that and it's got mass appeal is because it's simplistic and fun, join, buy some weapons and go shoot baddies. CSS and Rainbow six use the same concept TDM, but with actual ojectives only difference really.

BF2 and DoD use CTF or Domination modes where respawns are needed, they are popular because it's easy to play still takes a learning curve though, it appeals because it has a range of things cars, planes,tanks,boats the list goes on it appeals to those who like flying and driving games. Though they can still have the same respawn problem, if all their bases are taken over everyone has to wait till a new point goes up, which could be seconds could be minutes.

I think the answer would be to have a sim and arcade mode, they use the standard respawn system R6 uses, once dead you're dead till next round... But you take more gun fire and you have health in numbers like css. Those who want to play R6 the way it's always been can play SIM mode, if this could be filtered out in server screen I wouldn't have a problem with it, what you can't see doesn't hurt you.

DreamMarine
03-11-2006, 06:24 AM
I really don't think that respawn would be a solution in any way! It would really take away the tactics from R6. I don't want to see respawn in R6!

That is one reason why I opened this thread. People who vote for respawn do this, because they want to make R6 more user-friendly for newbies.

But, said again, i believe that respawn is the WRONG approach to the newbie-casual player-problem. Casual players like me don't want to dilute the gameplay of R6 in any way!!!

But we HAVE to find a way to make R6 MP more appealing to newbies and casual players.

So please everbody go on with looking for the best solution! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

subzero1900
03-11-2006, 07:45 AM
Just realise something

A. If you keep the noobs playing with noobs they wont get better. (idea of server seperatism)

B. If they are getting slaughtered on a server by one person time and time again (one thing comes to mind) Go a diffrent route

C. Server admins are the solution, Hell, If Ubi Held Noobie Servers and gave designated people Limited access to the server admin features, they could help prevent the Elite coming in the server and blowing the noobs away, and keeping people who have no intrest in playing with cooperation (tkers) banned off of servers.

D. But there in itself is the problem, back in the glory days of R6 (before Rvs) we were able to force people onto teams (balance it out) if 4 or 6 players that were generally good and you had 3 or 4 that were Elite on one team the admin (usually) forced 1-2 of the good players on to the other team to balance it out.

E. sometimes the admin would go alone with like 5-6 people left on the other team (king of the hill) because he was better

F. There is no solution for fixing a NOOB besides them Investing Time, Weeks, Months, Days, Hell Even Years. (if they dont have the patience to tough it out then they really dont need to be playing "Tactical" games, there is no naturally born tactician, they are developed)

Dane175
03-11-2006, 07:47 AM
That's the solution, just balance out the teams on the server. That simple.

Relenquish
03-11-2006, 09:51 AM
This is just a suggestion. Handicap option.

When applied to a server, optional, the worst players gain a handicap. Maybe more life etc.

I would suggest only the worst get a handicap, but it could help. Say those whos average kill/death ratio is below 0.2 over a period of 5 or more rounds. Thats 1 kill per 5 deaths.

Balancing out the teams is always a good idea. But it doesnt stop the newest players getting their asses kicked.

Yen Lo
03-11-2006, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by DreamMarine:
By the way: Did I mention that a lot of MP expert players are a miserable failure at SP and COOP? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Really? Like who? I been playing online since 99, never ran into that.
Id say making the training more intense would make better players and the Noobs wont get slaugthered as bad.
Most people leave Coop cause the storlines are boring, and the enemy ai aint near as challenging as fighting thinking people.

SODsniper
03-11-2006, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by DreamMarine:
By the way: Did I mention that a lot of MP expert players are a miserable failure at SP and COOP? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

I thought I was the exception, rather than the rule. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

d4v
03-11-2006, 02:05 PM
well.. there are 2 sort of fps onlinegames:
+ funshooter ala ut/bf
+ thinking man shooter aka rs

i got my rvs copy 1/2 year after it was out.. gues what. i got killed and killed and killed...

but i liked the gameplay, so it didnt matter much. day by day i got better and in the end i was in a good clan and under top 5 in ESL europe.

the point is: not every game suits everyone!

the next point is: funshooter exist to douzends, thinkin mans shooter.. hmm. rs and swat, thats about it.

Vert22110
03-11-2006, 02:11 PM
I stopped right after the first line of your post.

I don't want any "new audience" in Rainbow Six. I want Rainbow Six, and Rainbow Six fans. That's why you are seeing a lot of veterans post here.

DreamMarine
03-12-2006, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by Vert22110:
I stopped right after the first line of your post.

I don't want any "new audience" in Rainbow Six. I want Rainbow Six, and Rainbow Six fans. That's why you are seeing a lot of veterans post here.

Well, I leave it to everybody else to comment this on his/her own... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



Originally posted by d4v:
but i liked the gameplay, so it didnt matter much. day by day i got better and in the end i was in a good clan and under top 5 in ESL europe.


May I sincerely ask you how much time did you spend on this?



Aside from this - to all "noob"-callers:

From wikipdia: "... 'Newb' is not necessarily an insulting word, but 'noob' usually is. "


DreamMarine

FAORonin
03-12-2006, 09:03 PM
Just have to say that i'm glad your not advocating dumming the game down http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But I will say again, that joining a clan can help enormously!! I was once a "newb" who was taken in by a "clan".. and i'll also add that I still suck at these games.. I only play casually.

Find the right type of group and it makes it incredibly fun. get on voice comms.. it's makes it incredible.

I know you said this is basically the answer you have always gotten, but I really do believe it is a good answer..

btw.. even just playing with a clan on a regular basis makes for more fun even if you don't "join" them.

FAORonin
03-12-2006, 09:06 PM
speaking of which (I know.. I should have just edited) but adding in a "team" management type system into the game probably couldn't hurt. even just "friends" management. make it easier to join friends games from within the game.

DreamMarine
03-13-2006, 03:01 AM
Originally posted by doubleTAP5.56mm:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">)5. Newbies just have to accept the game as it is

Keep on thinking that way, and R6 will not draw in very much of "new audiences"!


Screw 'em. What he hell is the logic in changing the game that attracted (and kept) people who like this type of game in the first place? If you don't like R6 for what it is, then maybe this aint your kind of sht!
Falcon 4 and the Jane's fighter sims are not for everyone, realistic racing sims are not for everyone, SWAT isn't for everyone..... and R6 isn't for everyone.

And BTW, people keep refering to the "hardcore" R6 fans; I mean like we're freaks or something. "Hardcore" R6 fans are just R6 fans period.
If you don't like R6 the way it is, that doesn't make YOU a "normal" fan, and ME a "hardcore" fan. It makes ME a normal R6 fan, and YOU are a shooter fan who wants to play in the R6 world, but not actually play R6. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Maybe you should have read my posts a little bit more in detail!

But thanks for your opinion anyway.

doubleTAP5.56mm
03-13-2006, 03:28 AM
Sorry DM, first of all I took that paragraph the wrong way because I did in fact fail to read your entire post (that #5 jumped right out at me!) Oh yeah, when I used the word "you", I didn't mean YOU, lol. I meant people who advocate #5 the way I mistakenly took it.
D*mn that post kicked *ss too, I'll have to copy/save it for the right thread, lol!

By the way: Did I mention that a lot of MP expert players are a miserable failure at SP and COOP?
Very true. And I think it's because most "experts" are not experts as far as CT tactics and team movement, but are merely video game "experts" using video game tactics and not RW tactics.

doubleTAP5.56mm
03-13-2006, 03:44 AM
Originally posted by DreamMarine:
I really don't think that respawn would be a solution in any way! It would really take away the tactics from R6. I don't want to see respawn in R6!

That is one reason why I opened this thread. People who vote for respawn do this, because they want to make R6 more user-friendly for newbies.

But, said again, i believe that respawn is the WRONG approach to the newbie-casual player-problem. Casual players like me don't want to dilute the gameplay of R6 in any way!!!

But we HAVE to find a way to make R6 MP more appealing to newbies and casual players.


There's a difference between newbies and casual players. To me a newbie is someone who lacks skill but understands that R6 is R6, and this is what they want to play.
A casual player (IMO) doesn't want to bother with the technical and realism aspects of R6. You will see these people playing every shooter basically the same exact way.
Sad really.
All R6 fans were noobs at first, but no real R6 fan ever qualified as casual, I don't think. The two concepts (R6 fan / casual) totally conflict.

I definately agree with NO respawns, but if respawns are included at least never get rid of the PROPER no respawn modes.

BigCat75
03-13-2006, 03:55 AM
All R6 fans were noobs at first, but no real R6 fan ever qualified as casual, I don't think. The two concepts (R6 fan / casual) totally conflict.


Get's my vote for sentence of the week http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

KUF_Kazzuto
03-13-2006, 04:24 AM
all of us started as newbee.. got smashed a gazillion time... you play, you improove your skills, you get better and you smash those who just started...
Whanna improove your game play faster? get in a clan and practice with your clammates, learn the trick of the trade...be inquisive not passive...
what ruined rvs popularity was cheaters and ubi not stepping up to the challenge (theats) posed by cheater. we had finally a decent game when most of the pees dropped out tired of seen impossible things happening. Guarantee to new players a fair game and they'll stick to the game, give a good customer support, try to release the game finished without patching it 20 times before it becomes playable. Implement a morelike zone lobby for player to easelly find a server that suit them better.
I really don't buy the "I got allways smashed!! nobody help me!!! see yah" type of aproach...

DreamMarine
03-13-2006, 05:13 AM
Originally posted by doubleTAP5.56mm:
Very true. And I think it's because most "experts" are not experts as far as CT tactics and team movement, but are merely video game "experts" using video game tactics and not RW tactics.

Oh yeah, very good point. Actually, I apprehend it mostly the same way.

There IS a big difference in tactics depending on if you are playing SP or MP. Actually, I am more the SP type of R6 player.

But i would love to play in competition against human players in MP more often. But honestly, I don't have the time to train at least 2 hours a day and at least 5 days a week (as most "expert" seem to - at least, so i was told sometimes). http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

BTW, thanks for reading the whole thread. I appreciate that very much. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



Originally posted by doubleTAP5.56mm:
There's a difference between newbies and casual players. To me a newbie is someone who lacks skill but understands that R6 is R6, and this is what they want to play.


Well, actually i have never seen this that way before. Interresting point! I will think about this one...

But in which category do i fall, if I played R6 from the start of the series on (mostly SP), love the R6 concept as it is, want to play more in MP against other players... BUT don't have the time to train as much as other players seem to suggest to me? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



Originally posted by KUF_Kazzuto:
what ruined rvs popularity was cheaters and ubi not stepping up to the challenge (theats) posed by cheater. we had finally a decent game when most of the pees dropped out tired of seen impossible things happening. Guarantee to new players a fair game and they'll stick to the game, give a good customer support, try to release the game finished without patching it 20 times before it becomes playable. Implement a morelike zone lobby for player to easelly find a server that suit them better.



Very good point, too! I am very aware, that a lot of "newbie-friendliness" will depend on UBI!!!

GSG_9_Rage
03-13-2006, 09:29 AM
okay, i basically didn't read this last page (my contacts are drying up as i type this). but i don't like the idea of restricting "higher rank" people from servers (i am against ranks in general). the only way you are going to learn is to play with people better than you. I do like the idea of having the game server admin tweak his or her game settings they way they want. If i owned a RvS server, then i would restrict the FAMAS, cause i think it's cheap. If newbies played against newbies, you are not learning anything.

If you were completely new to gaming, then you should play SP or COOP to get the basics of moving and shooting. there you could control the gameplay almost completely. you can select the difficulty and stuff like that. if you were that new gaming person, yes, it would be discouraging if you never got to play because you never lived long enough. If you never played a R6 game, then it would be different. you know how to use the mouse and keyboard, you just have to adjust to the individual game. like all games.

d4v
03-13-2006, 11:50 AM
May I sincerely ask you how much time did you spend on this?


bout 1 month to play competitive and onother 2 to play really good. daily that is.

anyway its cool to work your way up... keeps it more challenging. there will always be better players, but hey i like that, so you know you still can do better.

beside that, what me kept playing rvs for nearly 2 years now is the adrenalinshootout this game is still cousing sometimes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

O_SHOGTUK_O
03-15-2006, 07:29 PM
Let me explain:

A newb is a newbie (new to the game). All players start out as newbs... The best players were once newbs but of course experience from previous fps's helps.

A noob now is a type of person hehehehe
A person who cannot fathom logic. A person who does stupid things no matter how long they have played. you can often find a noob walking around crouched, with a FAL on single shot in a CQB map, not looking at 'every' possible spot an enemy can appear from. They dont turn around when the team mate they just passed get killed. They slowly walk backwards looking at a frag when it lands on the floor in front of them (some just look at the frag and get brain freeze). They stare at one spot even though an enemy could come from any spot. A noob once again is not necessarily a new player. They are either too scared of dying or just completely 'illogical' (or both).

I am always helpful with new players (advise them on weapons/tactics etc) because i understand that everyone has been there. It is a shame that so many good players are smug and forget that they are only 'good' cos of practise and experience. This is maybe a reason many players dont feel welcome. Some (like i was) dont give a **** and are friendly and chatty. These are the players that will eventually ascend through the ranks.

P.S. I am a pro at co-op and adversarial http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

O_SHOGTUK_O
03-15-2006, 07:31 PM
Ok i swore in my first post and it hasnt been approved. Let me try and remember it (was up late last night) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sleepzzz.gif

Like wikipedia told you, Noob and Newb have two meanings.

Newb is short for newbie (new to something).
Every good player was once a newb. Depending on their real life knowledge of tactics, shooting and combat, a newb can play fairly well. Experience however is priceless. One problem newbs face is the mean, cold response experienced players give them. I myself am always as helpful as i can be with new players (sometimes they latch on, ask me question after question or ask if they can follow me in game but i dont mind this). This attitude people show them is bad for the game. It is not a game full of gimmicks where kiddy mentalities like the look of it so will stay regardless of how they are treated. They have to grow to understand that it is very true to real combat and real tactics are needed. All good players were once newbs but it is only certain mentalities that stay to become good players. If the fact is: 60% of the population are small minded, then give us R6 and them BF2. Do not dumb down our game so they can give it a few goes then buy the new CS or BF2 expansion. If everyone was equally clever, the word would not exist.

Hehehehe... a Noob on the other hand is a type of person... A noob is not necessarily a new player. A noob is a logic lacking mentality. Someone who thinks too much but in all the wrong ways. Someone who no matter how long they play, still play stupidlyhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif You can find noobs walking around small maps crouched with a FAL on single shot. A noob doesnt turn around when the team m8 they just passed gets killed behind them. Noobs pay attention to one spot when the enemy could appear from many. Noobs try and shoot with no success from behind a team m8 and kill them 'by accident' ('by stupidity'). Noobs frag from behind team m8s and bounce nades off the back of their heads 'by accident'. If there was no such things as stupid people, the word would not exist. Noobs are just these people! Noobs are easy pickings for good players...
Thanks god for noobshttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

My advice to newbs: This is not real life where you should feel weak because you were not picked for the football team or the girls in your school dont like you. Dont be silly and rude to players because constantly dying is frustrating. Be humble, keep playing and you will get better. Be friendly and people with have no choice but to respond with friendly attitudes. The new players who compliment good players, talk a lot and ask questions are normally the ones who stay and become good players.

Its hard to be real in a world full of fakes, being real may not bring gold or wealth but it is a satisfaction like no other.

GEET0X
06-06-2009, 11:00 PM
I'm new to R6. The day I'm bored is the day I move on. I don't need respect from people who played a GAME before me. I die, I keep trying. who gives a fluck.

JCrim32
06-09-2009, 07:31 PM
I disagree with this "honor" system or blocking ranks. I still love playing Vegas 1 because it's mostly experienced players and you dont get the "newbies". It's not our fault you have short tempers and decide to get rid of games when things dont go your way. I took me about 2 months to start breaking even on my K/D ratio in Vegas 1, and another month before i became good at it. Give it time and learn from your mistakes and eventually you'll get good. Plus switching constantly between halo MP, COD MP, and R6 MP is bound to mess you up so pick one and stick with it. Also the XP system in Vegas 1 helped motivate people to work as a team rather than the selfish system in V2.

GSG_9_Rage
06-09-2009, 10:27 PM
Holy thread flashback!

Ranks only induce selfish gameplay.

RaiderNationUK
06-25-2009, 05:24 AM
You make a great point DreamMarine. It's important to maintain the flow of new players to the game.

IMO, R6V2 has offered the best mechanism to allow this, albeit it needs to be built upon. Those Elites from Vegas 1 received a small bonus to start with in Vegas 2. This ability to read historic gameplay could be the key to making the game accessible to Vets and Newcomers alike.

My suggestion...

The next game reads your historic gameplay across both Vegas titles. If you reached Elite in both titles, you then only qualify to play games against other historic Elites.

This allows new comers to play against Casual/less experienced players until they themsleves rank-up to Elite in the game, they then play against veterans.

This also allows veterans of the game to play against each other without worrying about so called N00bs. Personally I encourage new players and try to help them as much as possible, but, I have seen people kick players purely because their rank is not high enough.

This method also has the added bonus of punishing boosters from the first 2 games who are Elites, but, haven't earned the rank, ergo, do not have the same skill level as genuine Elites. I know we all quietly are nodding at that one!

Your "veteran" status is ignored when playing against friends.

This method allows new comers to enjoy the gameplay and learn to become good whilst allowing veteran players to enjoy the level of skill they desire. Everyone is happy... apart from the boosters http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

skcire09
07-09-2009, 09:56 AM
took me only a week before i was good at versus.now i have been playing online for 3 weeks because i got a internet connection for my new pc.on my first game of team death match, i hated the players who run and gun at close range.died alot because of that, but got use to it

skcire09
07-09-2009, 09:57 AM
but ive finish stony mode on realistic