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XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 12:10 AM
At the maps of lake Balaton the developpers forgotten to modell the sights of the area. For example the palace at Keszthely, the church of Tihany, and mostly topography of the map. There are mountains of medium height, the Tihany peninsula is a mountan, and the city of Pécs is located in the Mecsek mountains.

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 12:10 AM
At the maps of lake Balaton the developpers forgotten to modell the sights of the area. For example the palace at Keszthely, the church of Tihany, and mostly topography of the map. There are mountains of medium height, the Tihany peninsula is a mountan, and the city of Pécs is located in the Mecsek mountains.

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 12:26 AM
Don't forget the gas station.

Da Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 12:45 AM
And I thought this game is about airplanes.

"degustibus non disputandum"

<center>http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 12:48 AM
Hey, you're right. When comparing satellite pictures with the IL-2 maps, they're, they're.... different!!!

O the humanity.

Then on the second day, it was made bug free, and He saw that it was good.

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 01:01 AM
temi wrote:
- There are
- mountains of medium height, the Tihany peninsula is
- a mountan, and the city of Pécs is located in the
- Mecsek mountains.

Maybe, in WWII they were not there yet...
Ever heard of "oro-genesis"?

Maybe.

A.

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 02:07 AM
Right. Mountains changed height and a castle was built since WWII...

These things may be important to someone who doesn't live so far away the whole place is a mystery. Remember how good it was when the other castle and that building on the cliff edge were found and noted? Every little thing can't go in or the FR would drop. Still, to expect all the Easter Eggs is maybe too much and... no gas for Buzz, he has enough already!


Neal

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 02:08 AM
Well... I have heard it all now... Next thing we will see a bug list on how IL2 FB does not take into account the chance of a lunar eclips... Because everyone knows how important that is to a flight sim!



TAGERT
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If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 04:05 AM
I never cease to be amazed by the amount of people who complain whenever anyone notes that improvements could be made. Maybe all you folks should go back to playing Red Baron 1, or Flight of the Intruder, or better yet, why not just play Pong. That way, you wouldn't be bothered by all those 'annoying' improvements that befoul more modern games.

Anyone would think that it was a CRIME to suggest improvements to a game.

What a load of wankers!



Message Edited on 07/20/0303:08AM by Beery

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 04:42 AM
Beery wrote:
- I never cease to be amazed by the amount of people
- who complain whenever anyone notes that improvements
- could be made.

Improvments?

- Maybe all you folks should go back
- to playing Red Baron 1, or Flight of the Intruder,
- or better yet, why not just play Pong. That way,
- you wouldn't be bothered by all those 'annoying'
- improvements that befoul more modern games.

Oh, I see the problem here, your operating under the impression that calling something a SERIOUSE MISTAKE is the way people sugest IMPROVMENTS as oposed to WHINNING about things that dont really mater in a COMBAT flight sim.

- Anyone would think that it was a CRIME to suggest
- improvements to a game.

There are people who SUGGEST improvments.. and the titles of the thread usally start of with "IT WOULD NICE.." or "I THINK THIS WOULD IMPROVE THE IMMERSION.." or "IT WOULD BE COOL IT THIS HAD THAT.." *but* When the title says SERIOUS MISTAKE it implys that there is something WRONG with the way something is. And IMHO I dont think a missing building will wreack a COMBAT flight sim.. I would MUCH RATHER see the time and effort spend on improving the COMBAT portions

- What a load of wankers!

If this was MS FS 2000 or something.. you and he MIGHT have an argument... But this is not, thus you dont, which makes you the QUEEN of wankers!



TAGERT
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If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 04:44 AM
How would this improve the game?

Da Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 09:19 AM
Szisztok, Terve, Hi,

Yeah Oleg, please give to us Grand canyon and Yosemite valley map. Nice satelite picture based hires textures but dont waist your time with extreme stupid topografy of those areas... WHO CARES, you know.

I agree with Temi. Balaton map is dead boring flat. It kills immersion prety well if you been there and you know how area look.


Well, maybe reason for no-alt-data has something to do with size of the map file(s) and fps etc issue.

Shadow shading pictures

Balaton area (502k)
http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/shading/balaton.jpg

Mecsek area and Pécs (288k)
http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/shading/mecsek.jpg

Message Edited on 07/20/0312:06PM by XJazz

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 11:31 AM
Yea! And why the h*ll can't I retrace my house and garden ornaments in the Gulf of Finland map?! That's just unfeasable! I'm really cooking with anger here. This is unheard of! Not possible! I can't even retrace the tree in which I carved the initials of my girlfriend! And this game dares call itself "realistic"?! Sheesh!

Uhh... why should Oleg's team waste time modeling historically correct churches? You want to give them realistic preach models too?

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</center>

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 11:51 AM
BuzzU wrote:
- How would this improve the game?


It would make it more correct?


He is right anyway, forgetting a mountain range off a map is a serious mistake.

I'm sure even Taggert would agree that forgetting Manhattan off New York, or Canoyns out off Colorado map would be serious mistake. Such things matter also in combat sims, as it may be difficult to recreate a battle in valley of death, if there is no valley, but plains! It is important even if it is not your backyard.


Unfortunately this bug is unlikely to get fixed as it was reported already in the Beta of FB. It will have the same destiny as the Stalingrad map with it's post-war reservoirs and remain incorrect for the rest of the games life-span.


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 12:18 PM
Some people must think FB is somekinda holy grail and anything that would make it better is a crime indeed..

The people in this forum never stop to amaze me when it comes to childish fanboy comments.

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 12:40 PM
Yes, the fanboys are useless and can even become extremely dangerous for a game.

Imagine, after the release of FB, only fanboys or courtiers on the forums: "everything is great, perfect blah, blah, blah..."

The developing team of course knows that many improvments should be done to get really a perfect game (don't say me I'm wrong; with the patch, FB is cleary a new game). But the marketing men of the publishing house would say: "hey, why spend (and paying) four months of extra programming work for improving the details (and that's really the details which separate a good game from a great sim, just look at Strike Fighters), if all the players are so satisfied? So, if only the fanboys would have been heard, we would have to stay perhaps for ever with an unfinished game, a very agreeable game, yes, but not a sim!

But thanks God, Oleg knows his work perfectly and he did with his team what should have to be done /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Cheers,

P.S. That's said, the "stupid whining" attitude can be of course annoying, but it's not very dangerous, because when you say an obvious stupid thing, you're simply not taken seriously!

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 03:07 PM
temi wrote:
[snip]
- the church of
- Tihany, and mostly topography of the map. There are
- mountains of medium height, the Tihany peninsula is
- a mountan,
[snip]

Here is a geographic map of the Tihany Peninsula, and it appears to be mountainous as the poster has indicated:

http://www.mafi.hu/inf/angol/balFig_5.GIF

Source: <u>The Geo-Environmental GIS Database of the Shoreline Zone of Lake Balaton</u> (http://www.mafi.hu/inf/angol/bal_egis.html)


From just observing this one map, I think the poster has a good point, although I believe the title of the post overstates the severity of the omissions. Maps, even 3D ones, are simply abstractions of reality, and often times these disappoint us with a lack of detail. My expectation of the maps in IL2/FB is that these maps are more or less representative of the terrain of a particular area, but I would not expect 1:1 correspondence with real geography. Anyway, calling attention to these geographic detail omissions is not necessarily a bad thing; it just shows the developer that these aspects of reality and immersion are important to (some, at least) members of the community.


Message Edited on 07/20/0302:13PM by rbstr44

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 03:17 PM
I agree with the poster as well.
Many times navagation was done by prominent landmarks, churches and other large buildings being one of the things to look for. Mountains are also important landmarks one would use to orient themselves to where they were.
I agree to say it is a serious mistake in the title may be a bit strong, but his point is valid.
Mirthain=FC=

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 03:25 PM
Several of the maps in IL-2/FB are very poor indeed, just take a look at Stalingrad. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Now they aren't poor because of the visual limitations of the sim and PC technology, although this does of course affect the overall look.
They are poor because of lack of research. With all the thought, planning and detail that goes into the planes, the FM etc, it's a shame that as much hasn't gone in to the landscape. Perhaps it was a time/cost problem, perhaps the development team didn't employ anyone to do historical research in this field.

No-one should expect to see their house on the map, but a historic sim should be based on historic detail. In all areas.

Those of you who just enjoy dogfighting and nowt else won't care a hoot of course, but those of us who enjoy trying to recreate historical scenarios do. So there! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

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Then a powerful demon, a prowler through the dark,
nursed a hard grievance.

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 05:16 PM
GROW UP KIDS!!

My point was, and is that this tack SERIOUSE MISTAKE had nothing to do with sugesting improvments and everythig to do with implying there is a BUG that needs to be fixed. There is a simple thing that most adults understand,

IF YOU TRY TO DO EVERYTHING, YOU WILL END UP WITH SOMETHING THAT DOES NOTHING GREAT

That is based on the FACT that there are only so many hours in a day and only so many dollars to do something with. Thus adults have to draw the line SOMEWHERE and decide what is best for what it is they are trying to do. Oleg and his team wanted to make the best COMBAT flight sim, not the best SIGHT SEEING flight sim. This is not to imply that IL2 is perfect! Nor is it to imply that no one should comment on things they find or feel are wrong. But when I see some bone head calling something a SERIOUSE MISTAKE that has nothing to do with that LINE that Oleg and the team decided on. Well Ill be D_A_M if Ill sit by and not point it out!!

TAGERT
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If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 05:22 PM
Red_Storm wrote:
- Yea! And why the h*ll can't I retrace my house and
- garden ornaments in the Gulf of Finland map?! That's
- just unfeasable! I'm really cooking with anger here.
- This is unheard of! Not possible! I can't even
- retrace the tree in which I carved the initials of
- my girlfriend! And this game dares call itself
- "realistic"?! Sheesh!
-
- Uhh... why should Oleg's team waste time modeling
- historically correct churches? You want to give them
- realistic preach models too?

ROTFL! No kidding! God.. I dont know.. On one hand I think folks truly belive they are helping when they make stupid comments like the orginal poster... Thus I will usally cut them some slack.. But you can tell this is a guy who dosent know enough about other things, and found the ONE thing he does know about and posted it.. So he can look like he is helping. Deep down he knew noone would read a thread titled PLEASE INCLUDED MISSING CHURCH so he went with the TROLL TITLE SERIOUS MISTAKE in the hopes of getting some att. Sad... TRULY SAD!




TAGERT
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If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 05:30 PM
tagert wrote:
- GROW UP KIDS!!
-

Huh?


- IF YOU TRY TO DO EVERYTHING, YOU WILL END UP WITH
- SOMETHING THAT DOES NOTHING GREAT

Huh?


- But
- when I see some bone head calling something a
- SERIOUSE MISTAKE that has nothing to do with that
- LINE that Oleg and the team decided on. Well Ill be
- D_A_M if Ill sit by and not point it out!!

So you know the "LINE" Oleg and the team decided on, do you? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Please do remember that no one seems to complain about sight seeing etc., but terrain that exists, did exists and was fought for. For example historical battle of Stalingrad can not be fought on the current map, simple as that! Battles that were fought on Balaton map aresignificantly different in nature due to lack of refined terrain. That is a mistake, in my opinion serious, in yours not.

Just a difference of opinion, so you can stop being opinion police and let everyone have theirs. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Make love, not war! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 05:36 PM
Jippo01 wrote:
- He is right anyway,

Disagree 100%

- forgetting a mountain range off
- a map is a serious mistake.

Not at all, espically when they have allready said many times in the past that they dont and wont, in that it takes more time and money to do, and not to mention more FPS if put in.

- I'm sure even Taggert would agree that forgetting
- Manhattan off New York, or Canoyns out off Colorado
- map would be serious mistake.

LOL! I love the way you change what was orginaly said. Ill recap for you, he was complain about a building missing, and that some of the mountains where not there.. NOT WHOLE ISLANDS missing or a CANOYN that can be seen from outher space.


- Such things matter also in combat sims,

MAJOR iteams yes, the iffel tower in paris would not go un-noticed in a COMBAT flight sim. The guy selling post cards at the base of it does not need to be modeled and if it was would ADD NOTHING to a COMBAT flight sim.

- as it may be difficult to
- recreate a battle in valley of death, if there is no
- valley, but plains! It is important even if it is
- not your backyard.

See above, it aint the iffle tower, thus blow it off!

- Unfortunately this bug is unlikely to get fixed as
- it was reported already in the Beta of FB. It will
- have the same destiny as the Stalingrad map with
- it's post-war reservoirs and remain incorrect for
- the rest of the games life-span.

Nothing unfortunate about it, the fact that they have not fixed it yet means they are staying the line.. The LINE being, lets devote our TIME and MONEY to making a GREAT COMBAT FLIGHT SIM and not try and compeate with MicroSofts FLIGHT SIM 2003 trainer where NAVE point and SIGHT SEEING are the KEY to a well done TRAINER.




TAGERT
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If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 05:41 PM
Jippo01 wrote:
-
- tagert wrote:
-- GROW UP KIDS!!
--
-
- Huh?
-
-
-- IF YOU TRY TO DO EVERYTHING, YOU WILL END UP WITH
-- SOMETHING THAT DOES NOTHING GREAT
-
- Huh?

Like I said ONLY ADULTS WOULD UNDERSTAND!!!!!

- So you know the "LINE" Oleg and the team decided on,
- do you?

YUP! Not only is it clear from the product, but they have said it in this very forum, ie this AINT Flight Sim 2003


- Please do remember
- that no one seems to complain about sight seeing
- etc., but terrain that exists, did exists and was
- fought for. For example historical battle of
- Stalingrad can not be fought on the current map,
- simple as that!

What part of a FLIGHT sim consisting of being in the air 995 of the time do you not understand? I guess you get shot down alot, the hit the silk alot, and watch your guy run around on the gnd alot? ROFL!

- Battles that were fought on Balaton
- map aresignificantly different in nature due to lack
- of refined terrain. That is a mistake, in my opinion
- serious, in yours not.

LIKE I SAID, KIDS WONT UNDERSTAND THIS!!

- Just a difference of opinion, so you can stop being
- opinion police and let everyone have theirs.

And my opinion of your opinion is a valid opinion, in that I want to make sure that Oleg and the like know that there are more people out here that would rather see them spend their time and money on COMBAT issues and not some CHURCH.. Just encase they were thinking of doing it due to all the heat from the KIDS!



TAGERT
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If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 05:43 PM
tagert wrote:

- Deep down he knew noone would read a thread titled
- PLEASE INCLUDED MISSING CHURCH so he went with the
- TROLL TITLE SERIOUS MISTAKE in the hopes of getting
- some att. Sad... TRULY SAD!


Do you know how important that church is to Hungarian people? How can you say it is not important just because you do not know it?


For example leaving out Viipuri castle from the Gulf of Finland is a mistake as well. Battles of the Winter War ended next to it end the final defeat came well after the peace agreement, and the Finnish flag was finally lowered from it's tower and the Russian hoisted up. Same happened in reversed order in the Continuation War, and again reversed in the end of the war.

Castle has great historical and psychological importance to Finnish people (esp. Karelians), and thus putting in eg. loads of historical buildings in Helsinki and Leningrad, and leaving out the single most important building out of Karelia was a significant mistake IMHO.

And the severity of the mistake is only proportional the person in question. Karelian person doing battle of Viipuri scenario will find that the missing of the castle is a very serious mistake, isn't it so?


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 05:47 PM
Jippo01 wrote:
-
- Do you know how important that church is to
- Hungarian people? *SNIP*

What part of COMBAT FLIGHT sim do you not understand? My guess would be the FLIGHT part? And how do you keep missing my point? It being that any land mark, sort of things know the world over (ie iffle tower) dont mater in a COMBAT FLIGHT SIM!! That is to say, my point is... you know, the one you miss over and over and over an over is THIS IS NOT MICROSOFST FLIGH SIM 2003!!



TAGERT
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If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 05:52 PM
tagert wrote:

- Nothing unfortunate about it, the fact that they
- have not fixed it yet means they are staying the
- line.. The LINE being, lets devote our TIME and
- MONEY to making a GREAT COMBAT FLIGHT SIM and not
- try and compeate with MicroSofts FLIGHT SIM 2003
- trainer where NAVE point and SIGHT SEEING are the
- KEY to a well done TRAINER.

Remember that it is only your opinion what constitutes a great combat flight sim, isn't it? Some people will have other opinions. I think your opinion in this case stinks, you may think mine stinks, but that really is that!

To many accurate terrain is a prerequisite for accurate campaign play and millimetre exact navigation. To many that is important in a combat sim.


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 05:53 PM
If all the important things were fixed in FB. Then maybe we can worry about some buildings missing. As things are right now. I don't see it as that important. 99.9% of people playing FB would never miss those buildings.

Da Buzz
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<center>
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XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 05:56 PM
Jippo01 wrote:
- Remember that it is only your opinion what
- constitutes a great combat flight sim, isn't it?
- Some people will have other opinions. I think your
- opinion in this case stinks, you may think mine
- stinks, but that really is that!

Im just happy to know that my opinion is in line with the makers of the flight sim, ie do things that make for a great COMBAT FLIGHT sim experance. Where COMBAT FLIGHT sim is generally been understood by adults to mean AC fighting other AC or an AC attacking a ground unit... That is to say *NOT* AC buzzing some church on some hill that only 1% of the world knows is there.

- To many accurate terrain is a prerequisite for
- accurate campaign play and millimetre exact
- navigation. To many that is important in a combat
- sim.

Agreed, Im just glad the makers of this sim know where to draw the line with regards to that!!


TAGERT
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If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 06:00 PM
tagert wrote:
- Jippo01 wrote:
--
-- Do you know how important that church is to
-- Hungarian people? *SNIP*
-
- What part of COMBAT FLIGHT sim do you not
- understand? My guess would be the FLIGHT part? And
- how do you keep missing my point? It being that any
- land mark, sort of things know the world over (ie
- iffle tower) dont mater in a COMBAT FLIGHT SIM!!
- That is to say, my point is... you know, the one you
- miss over and over and over an over is THIS IS NOT
- MICROSOFST FLIGH SIM 2003!!



So, if you really have so much problems trying to see things from other person's point of view, I'll simplify it a bit more, ok?

Finnish map is missing village of Summa, the single most important place of battle in the Winter War. It is impossible to create historical air battles in Summa isn't it? One cannot fly to CAS mission to Summa as it isn't on the map! If I say that leaving Summa out is a serious mistake, you shouldn't jump on me because you do not know anything about war history in the region should you?

Do you know enough of the importance of that particular church to say it is not important? Do not be so arrogant that you think you can judge on a matter you do not clearly know anything of.


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 06:05 PM
I don`t quite understand the Oleg-is-always-right fanclub. The Balaton map has some very serious mistakes. It`s all plain flat. In reality, the norther shore is full with a range of medium sized mountains. Tihany for example has a rather big mountain right next to the water, emerging steeply right next to the lake. In Il-2 it`s PLAIN FLAT. I don`t want the gas station, or anything like that, but I have difficulties understanding why is it such a huge challenge to make the heighs correct with the simple use of a terrain map on the area, especially if the map itself is ready ever since the old Il-2, which it just missed.

Or when we will get an Englad map maybe, Dover will be plain flat, right?



http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/FB-desktopweb.jpg
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Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

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Message Edited on 07/20/0307:06PM by Vo101_Isegrim

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 06:07 PM
Jippo01 wrote:
- So, if you really have so much problems trying to
- see things from other person's point of view, I'll
- simplify it a bit more, ok?

No, allow me to break it down for you in terms that even the kids will... well MAYBE understand.

Lets assume that Oleg and the team work 8 hours a day... I know I know, it is more like 12 hours, but the KIDS would not understand that so lets stick with the 8 hour case for now.

If someon comes into this forum with an opinion that Oleg and the team should spend 1 of the 8 hours a day working on a CHURCH. I dont agree with that, thus I make my opinion known in the hopes of offseting that opinion with mine in the hopes that the 1 hour gets applied to fixing bugs in the COMBAT FLIGHT sim aspect of the game.

Now that is about as pre-scholl as I can make it, so, if you miss this point too, Ill just have to chalk it up to your blind and or dont want to get it


TAGERT
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If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 06:12 PM
Vo101_Isegrim wrote:
- I don`t quite understand the Oleg-is-always-right
- fanclub. The Balaton map has some very serious
- mistakes. It`s all plain flat *snip*

Oh, I *think* Im starting to get a grip on the KID's point of view here... You KIDS are under the impression that there is some switch in the software that Oleg has disabled that takes the perfect terain map out of the majic black box and purposly disables the mountains and chuches... See that is not how it works!! They have to code that stuff up, and as ADULTS they realise they cant code up the whole world, and even if they did most PC's couldnt handle all the little hills and vallys and STILL provide a good enuogh frame rate to do air to air dogfights. So, keep in mind, there is no majic little black box to go and get the code out of, and there is no little options swithc that Oleg is disabling in that majic little black box of code to turn off all the little things you want



TAGERT
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If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 06:20 PM
tagert wrote:


I find your way to trying to resort in personal insults pretty poor conduct. I think I have established myself in the community in a way that you, who is a relative newbie, have either no reason or nor the right (well that applies actually to every one, refer to the forum rules). Please ask somebody who has been around little bit longer is it really worth attacking me like that, and does that have any point. And as a reply to your "insults", I think I have lived long enough and done days long enough(even improving Il-2 and FB for you!) to have my own educated opinion of what is important.

Please find my first post where I say that leaving out a "mountain range" is a serious mistake. I'm still of that opinion, and I just tried to explain to you that a church can be an important aspect of a combat flight simulation. But regretfully I have not obviously done that enough.

You still do not have the right to jump people because you think you know what is important to everyone, and what is not. You are being just plain arrogant.



-jippo

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 06:23 PM
Jippo01 wrote:
- I find your way to trying to resort in personal
- insults pretty poor conduct.

Again, KIDS DONT UNDERSTAND!




TAGERT
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If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 06:24 PM
tagert wrote:

- Oh, I *think* Im starting to get a grip on the KID's
- point of view here...

Now the other kid is a lawyer and other architect, so I think you can drop that style already. Very poor form indeed.

You KIDS are under the
- impression that there is some switch in the software
- that Oleg has disabled that takes the perfect terain
- map out of the majic black box and purposly disables
- the mountains and chuches... See that is not how it
- works!! They have to code that stuff up, and as
- ADULTS they realise they cant code up the whole
- world, and even if they did most PC's couldnt handle
- all the little hills and vallys and STILL provide a
- good enuogh frame rate to do air to air dogfights.
- So, keep in mind, there is no majic little black box
- to go and get the code out of, and there is no
- little options swithc that Oleg is disabling in that
- majic little black box of code to turn off all the
- little things you want

I've been creating models for FB and have an idea about frames, polygons etc.. That is not the point, don't you see! It is the lacking in research and execution in doing the maps. Many other maps have reasonable number of mountains and do not cause significant lag or low fps, please have a flight over Kuban or Krim and see them out.


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 06:25 PM
Ilove the idea of realistic maps.

Imagine the pleasure you can have just flying around, having a look!

And btw I'm not being sarcastic!

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

___________
:FI:Fenian

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_euro_us_02.gif

http://www.fighting-irish.org/

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 06:26 PM
Jippo01 wrote:
- Now the other kid is a lawyer and other architect,
- so I think you can drop that style already. Very
- poor form indeed.

It's just... how did you put it? An opinion? It has nothing to do with the actul age of the person, Im just basing my opinion on what they have to say here, hence the KID tag line.





TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 06:28 PM
FI_Fenian wrote:
- Ilove the idea of realistic maps.
-
- Imagine the pleasure you can have just flying
- around, having a look!
-
- And btw I'm not being sarcastic!

Hey, check out microsoft's flight simulator 2003 I hear it is great for flying around and looking at stuff on the ground! Not much going on in the air though, but hey, you have to draw the line somewhere! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 06:31 PM
tagert wrote:

- Hey, check out microsoft's flight simulator 2003 I
- hear it is great for flying around and looking at
- stuff on the ground! Not much going on in the air
- though, but hey, you have to draw the line
- somewhere!


Creating a more accurate height levels on a map doesn't seem to hurt the game performance at all. Did you take a trip around Kuban already?


-jippo

The_Blue_Devil
07-20-2003, 06:31 PM
People fight over the smallest things...

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySig.gif> </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 06:35 PM
The_Blue_Devil wrote:
- People fight over the smallest things...


Don't they! Like .50 cal performance and all! Unbeliavable! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 06:36 PM
Jippo01 wrote:
- Creating a more accurate height levels on a map
- doesn't seem to hurt the game performance at all.
- Did you take a trip around Kuban already?

Still missing the point? My point was NOT that it could not be done, only that there is only so many hours in a day.



TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 06:40 PM
It could have been done correctly in the same time first time couldn't it? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

And to remind you of the point of the ORR: it is for reporting bugs in the game and giving suggestions for future improvements. Map is not correct, and that qualifies as a bug just like any such mistake. Simple as that. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 06:46 PM
Jippo01 wrote:
- Don't they! Like .50 cal performance and all!
- Unbeliavable! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

You know where Oleg made his fist mistake? He tried to give us a better ground attack flight sim! Oleg knew like so many of us adults that sense the early days of WWII flight sims the ground attack aspect has been pretty much ignored. Hence he thought he would improve on that with IL2's rich enviorment with all the ground attacking aspect, trucks, tanks, trains.. Things that people have been wishing to see for years! Sence the AOTP days of blue sky and blue water with a green blob tossed in for and island. Yup, Oleg should have just done another FLAT EAW type of Combat Flight sim and avoided all these complaints that compare IL2 to the likes of some SIGHT SEEING SIM.. Problem was, the IL2 wouldnt have been much use in such a sim. So shame on you Oleg for not modeling the tree in my front yard!! How dare you try and give me the chance to attack a train on some train tracks that are 14 feet farther NORTH then they are in real life!! HOW DARE YOU TRY AND PASS THAT OFF AS REALISTIC!! SHAME!!! Hmmmmm Im getting dizzzy.. all this kid like whinning is making me ill!



TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 06:47 PM
Jippo01 wrote:
- It could have been done correctly in the same time
- first time couldn't it? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
- And to remind you of the point of the ORR: it is for
- reporting bugs in the game and giving suggestions
- for future improvements. Map is not correct, and
- that qualifies as a bug just like any such mistake.
- Simple as that.

To a kid maybe! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 08:44 PM
You know,he is right.This bug has a big influence on the gameplay.Imagine such situation.

....So this guy is running away(in an airplane) and he is completely, I mean 100%, aware of his position.He takes a look on the map:"Hmm ok there`s a mountain 1000m ahead of me,I`ll go down into the clouds and the guy following me will crash on the mountain".

He does what he planned.Just seconds before his airplane hit`s the ground,he pulls up out of clouds.

He anticipates a message announcing that his opponent crashed into a mountain...NOT!

The guy would`ve crashed if there had been a mountain but he survived!The chase goes on instead of comming to an end few secs ago!The bogie should be burning right now!

The whiner,because of his fantastic knowledge about the region, could`ve won,but he didn`t!

FB sux!Oleg - fix it!

"degustibus non disputandum"

<center>http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 08:58 PM
Carguy, do you think things should be correct in the sim or not?

Or should the things that are only important to you be corrected, and others left as they are because they are sooo unimportant to you? Or do other people have a say at it too. Fellow pointed out a valid bug in the game, your bashing him is unmature and stupid! And in addition totally in contrast to the spirit of the ready room which should be a place for improvement.

Terrain affects tactics, tactics are totally different in hilly area compared to flat areas as valleys offer concealment and attack routes.


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 09:18 PM
You must understand some things can be changed,some things can`t.

The guy is correct,but this "bug" won`t be fixed.Period.

Me109 had a thingie device to clear the windscreen of oil which would save hundreds of virtual pilots.But it won`t be there,sorry.


BTW if you really want Oleg to respond you`ll have to make another riot like that with FW190.Otherwise you can forget it.



"degustibus non disputandum"

<center>http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 11:04 PM
Jippo01 wrote:
- Carguy, do you think things should be correct in the
- sim or not?
-
- Or should the things that are only important to you
- be corrected, and others left as they are because
- they are sooo unimportant to you? Or do other people
- have a say at it too. Fellow pointed out a valid bug
- in the game, your bashing him is unmature and
- stupid! And in addition totally in contrast to the
- spirit of the ready room which should be a place for
- improvement.
-
- Terrain affects tactics, tactics are totally
- different in hilly area compared to flat areas as
- valleys offer concealment and attack routes.

Proof positive... Kid's just dont get it!



TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 03:52 AM
Jippo, I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill here.

Which is more importaint, that the flight and damage models be fixed? Or that the terrain all be made to perfectly match its historical counter parts?

There are certain things that need to be addressed before less improtaint details are handled. There are quite a few maps in Il-2, and many of them are very accurate for a commercial combat flight sim, and that is good. Making them more accurate is also good. However, flaming the developer because they did not get every house and every hill in there perfectly the first time is not good. It does help to keep one's perspective here.

Now, the original poster has a valid point, that if a signifigant set of historical buildings and mountains are missing, then they should be put in. However, by titling his post "Serious Mistake" he implied that the error somehow signifigantly damaged the game. Considering how many of us have barely even noticed the error, amid the throngs of flight model and damage model flame wars, it would suggest that he is wrong. The general priority is on other fixes first. The maps we fly over are somewhat less importaint than the aircraft we fly in.

Considering how at least a couple of the more populare maps, are of places that never even existed at all, we can survive without perfectly accurate maps. Fligth model problems, and damage model problems are a higher priorety.

Harry Voyager

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 04:27 AM
Taggert - how about noticing that the initial poster was new to the forum and may not have English as a first language. Unlike your statements he didn't shout anything.

He plays the game and sees that a major geograhic feature is missing from a map and notes it as an important ommission - is that now a crime?

Oleg and his team are fully capable of deciding for themselves the priority of any fixing to be done.
And what's all this 'kids' crap? Get a grip.





http://members.optusnet.com.au/~athosd/mypic3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 05:30 AM
HarryVoyager wrote:
- The general priority is on other fixes first. The
- maps we fly over are somewhat less importaint than
- the aircraft we fly in.

That is it in a nut shell! Sums it up better then everythig else said on the topic!



TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 05:33 AM
Athosd wrote:
- Taggert - how about noticing that the initial poster
- was new to the forum

Did.

- and may not have English as a first language.

Maybe.

- Unlike your statements he didn't
- shout anything.

Disagre, the title of the thread did that, thus my counterpoint.

- He plays the game and sees that a major geograhic
- feature is missing from a map and notes it as an
- important ommission

Nope, he did not note anything of the kind, he said.. and I quote, SERIOUS MISTAKE.

- is that now a crime?

Should be! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- Oleg and his team are fully capable of deciding for
- themselves the priority of any fixing to be done.

Yup, and thus far they are inline with what I have said.

- And what's all this 'kids' crap? Get a grip.

What part of KIDS did you not understand?



TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 06:10 AM
HarryVoyager wrote:

- Jippo, I think you are making a mountain out of a
- molehill here.


I know that. And if you read back to my first post, I also said that it won't get fixed.

The point really is the arrogant, selfrighteous and outright stupid posts by some people. I should have understood before I started, that if their posting is on the level it is now, it would be futile to talk reason to them.

Guy reporting a bug in ORR shouldn't be jumped and called a troll. And that seriously ticks me off. Especially when it comes from guys who "know Oleg's/Maddox Games' agenda", and what is important to them.


But obviously it backfired, and we ended up in going circles trying to talk about perpective, opinion and importance... ...which clearly was only counterproductive as the persons I was talking to didn't realise my point, and to the rest of the readers the original point of this thread and my point got cluttered.


Well, I guess I tried....



-jippo

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 07:03 AM
tagert wrote:
Blah blah blah.....
-
- What part of KIDS did you not understand?

Noted - another cretin for the ignore list.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~athosd/mypic3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 09:13 AM
Jippo01 wrote:
-
- HarryVoyager wrote:
-
-- Jippo, I think you are making a mountain out of a
-- molehill here.
-
-
- I know that. And if you read back to my first post,
- I also said that it won't get fixed.
-
- The point really is the arrogant, selfrighteous and
- outright stupid posts by some people. I should have
- understood before I started, that if their posting
- is on the level it is now, it would be futile to
- talk reason to them.
-
- Guy reporting a bug in ORR shouldn't be jumped and
- called a troll. And that seriously ticks me off.
- Especially when it comes from guys who "know
- Oleg's/Maddox Games' agenda", and what is important
- to them.
-
-
- But obviously it backfired, and we ended up in going
- circles trying to talk about perpective, opinion and
- importance... ...which clearly was only
- counterproductive as the persons I was talking to
- didn't realise my point, and to the rest of the
- readers the original point of this thread and my
- point got cluttered.
-
-
- Well, I guess I tried....
-

you made your point clear to everone who wants to see.

the missing church can be discussed but a missing mountain is a "serious mistake" /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif IL2 has alot of flat terain and it's boring.
At the beginning of IL2 people where playing the Kuban map to death cause it was the only map with mountains.
If there are no random hills, at last the real mountains should be here.

I understand the idea of historical maps Oleg uses and I also understand the technical limits. Ever recognized that there is no mountain raising from wather and no steep coast in IL2?
Cities and roads are done great, but hills and mountains is somthing they could work on.

and hills are VERY IMPORTANT for a combat flight sim. They hinder you and give you protection at the same time, they define the tactics for ground attacks and low level DF.

one of my best DFs was my 190A4 against a Yak in a valley on the Kuban map.



quiet_man

second foundation member of the EURO_Snoopy fan club!

I'm quiet_man, but if I post I post quiet much /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 10:03 AM
tagert wrote:
- Athosd wrote:
-- Taggert - how about noticing that the initial poster
-- was new to the forum
-
- Did.
-
-- and may not have English as a first language.
-
- Maybe.
-
-- Unlike your statements he didn't
-- shout anything.
-
- Disagre, the title of the thread did that, thus my
- counterpoint.
-
-- He plays the game and sees that a major geograhic
-- feature is missing from a map and notes it as an
-- important ommission
-
- Nope, he did not note anything of the kind, he
- said.. and I quote, SERIOUS MISTAKE.
-
-- is that now a crime?
-
- Should be! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
-- Oleg and his team are fully capable of deciding for
-- themselves the priority of any fixing to be done.
-
- Yup, and thus far they are inline with what I have
- said.
-
-- And what's all this 'kids' crap? Get a grip.
-
- What part of KIDS did you not understand?
-
-
-
-
- TAGERT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your
- QUESTION?



Tagert, Jippo has been very patient and restrained in his correspondence with you. You, on the other hand, have been very arrogant and insulting.

You are adding nothing to the debate with this ADULTS and KIDS stuff (your emphasis). The growing up needs to be done by you.
Just my 2 cents.

BTW my opinion on the debate is further up the thread, if you can be bothered.

<CENTER>


<IMG SRC="http://www.apqa16.dsl.pipex.com/sig5.jpg"


Then a powerful demon, a prowler through the dark,
nursed a hard grievance.

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 10:40 AM
I think what Targert is trying to say is that the ideal flight sim should be a kind of calculator that spits numbers out at the pilot. Ok, so we don't really need each and every landmark modelled in our fligt sims - point conceded. But then, surely you agree that we don't need landmarks at all! I mean, throw in a few random hills here and there, a river or to if you feel like it, perhaps even a coastline. Who the **** cares if they really exist in reality? But then, can't you also compromise on the quality of your 3-D models and maybe cut down on a few of the polygons? You'll get a few more fps, Quake style. I guess everyone gets the point by now. If we can compromise somewhere, then there's no end to the compromises that game developers will end up making, and in the end your fancy pants P4 flight sim on a 400$ video card will end up looking like Red Baron on an arcade in a dirty corner of Soho. So, since we have all these nice powerful machines sitting around in our houses, why don't we make full use of them, like the aces did with their Doras and Mustangs, and model each and every little thing until we close our eyes because of the wind in our face!



http://www.student.richmond.edu/~vk5qa/images/forumsig.jpg


"Come on in, I'll treat you right. I used to know your daddy."

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 03:52 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- How would this improve the game?

Navigational aids when not flying with the minimap on.

Plus you could have missions in which you have to bomb
the castle!

It enriches the game to have these features in. Plus
if Paris was modelled without the Eiffel Tower, or
Washington without the White House, I think it would
annoy some people.

Of course it is possible to go too far in terms of detail -
the frame rates have to be playable at least.

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 05:47 PM
I would think the Landscape to be very important(IMHO!!!!)or PPL would'nt be asking for this or that map,it must be very exciting to have your local area mapped,plus I wonder what those US pilots(amongst others) who flew these missions from Italy would think,anyone who knows anything about navigation(an integral part of aerial combat(IMHO!!!) )knows to look for the most prominent landmark(a lake maybe) then you refine that(hmmm, the opposite side to my way home has mountains)
unfortunetly in a "commercial"combat flight simulator the highest common denominater wins , which in this thread seems to be "who gives a sh!t".which is a recurring compaint about this "eastern front" sim.

of course there has to be a balance,capturing the character of the area represented,would probably be enough,oh and significant local landmarks "would" help in this.

@Jippo ,thanks for the historical insights

@ Taggart,if your an adult,I'm definetly a kid



<img src=http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW/FW190-D9-29_small.jpg>
"yeah whatever"

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 06:33 PM
crunchieone

I don't know , because I haven't checked it out, but does it show what he's asking for on the map in FB? If you don't use the mini map, Then you have to use printed out maps. It wouldn't help you to have a mountain range, if it's not on the map too. The only people who would know about it, would people who actually live in the area.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 07:21 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- crunchieone
-
-
- people who would know about it, would people who
- actually live in the area.
-
-
-yeah Buzz,that might be the case,but if these things were implemented we'd all know about it.

and some PPL seriously need there horizons broadened!!!(present company excused of course /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )



<img src=http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW/FW190-D9-29_small.jpg>
"yeah whatever"

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 09:16 PM
Temple hill of Tihany, viewed from the Balaton, real life:

http://innovex.veszprem.hu/kepgaleria/images/10370919618289.jpg


Temple hill of Tihany, viewed from the Balaton, in Il-2FB :

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/Tihany-a-la-Oleg.jpg



Oh, and it`s not the temple I miss. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/FB-desktopweb.jpg
'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'

Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 09:47 PM
@Vo101_Isegrim:
yes, that's what we speak about,
alot of IL2 maps look this way (if not all), maybe a limitation of the engine?

I remeber a mod for EAW that increased all hills on the map, unrealistic but very impressive effect.

I hope in future maps Oleg can give us a bit more ups and downs /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



quiet_man

second foundation member of the EURO_Snoopy fan club!

I'm quiet_man, but if I post I post quiet much /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 10:31 PM
quiet_man wrote:
-
- @Vo101_Isegrim:
- yes, that's what we speak about,
- alot of IL2 maps look this way (if not all), maybe a
- limitation of the engine?

Maybe it is a limitation of the freely available
satellite elevation data that isn't fine enough to
show such hills? I have Xplane, but for some reason
I got two CDs of Asia and none of Europe so I can't
check to see if Xplane does it any better, and the
ftp server for the terrain is always full. There is
a downloadable source of data that in theory you can
convert to Aces High terrain maps, but I can't remember
the links (US geological survey perhaps?)

- I remeber a mod for EAW that increased all hills on
- the map, unrealistic but very impressive effect.

Mind you, EAW _was_ a bit too flat in the first place...
The alps weren't very hilly to be honest!

The temple on the Balaton lake looks beautiful, though.
I think this thread may at least increase the tourist
trade :-)

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 10:39 PM
Howdy

I think the lack of terrain detail and specific landmarks
are a mistake as well.

I didn't notice problems with Stalingrad until I read the
book Enemy at the Gates.

The terrain has a big effect on immersion for me. FM's
can and will be argued until everyone is blue in the face.

The terrain shouldn't be that big of a deal in that respect.

S!
Weasel

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 10:53 PM
AaronGT wrote:
-
- quiet_man wrote:
--
-- @Vo101_Isegrim:
-- yes, that's what we speak about,
-- alot of IL2 maps look this way (if not all), maybe a
-- limitation of the engine?
-
- Maybe it is a limitation of the freely available
- satellite elevation data that isn't fine enough to
- show such hills?

Uhm... don`t want to kick Oleg, but his team was in a bit of trouble with the location of cities... K, the Tihany hill isn`t that big, a few hundred meters perhaps, but drat, if that was the problem, I would send him my god-knows-where-I-put primary school map atlas... even that had the height indicated with colours.

I fear it`s just the lack of interest/resources in Oleg`s team to make heights correct. But I don`t understand, perhaps even a simple grayscale layer of height taken from a most humble map could do the trick... maybe not.




-
- Mind you, EAW _was_ a bit too flat in the first
- place...
- The alps weren't very hilly to be honest!
-
- The temple on the Balaton lake looks beautiful,
- though.
- I think this thread may at least increase the
- tourist
- trade :-)
-

Yeah, it`s a very cool sight on the lake when viewed from the hilltop. There used to be a natural echo there, but it gone when they built the hillside full with houses. I visited some restaurant there in the summer, BTW.


http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/FB-desktopweb.jpg
'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'

Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 12:13 AM
tagert wrote:

- And IMHO I dont think a missing
- building will wreack a COMBAT flight sim..
-

That missing building was his childhood school. He was clearly hoping to run a few strafing missions.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 04:32 AM
Jippo01 wrote:
- I know that.

I beg to differ.

- And if you read back to my first post,
- I also said that it won't get fixed.

Knowing and yet whinning about it does not mean your not making a mountain out of a mole hill.

- The point really is the arrogant, selfrighteous and
- outright stupid posts by some people.

Now now.. dont be too hard on yourself!

- I should have understood before I started, that
- if their posting is on the level it is now, it
- would be futile to talk reason to them.

Well, Im sure there are alot of things you dont understand, like there are only so many hours in a day, and only so much money to develope things, and that calling something a "serious mistake" is not the way to "suggest improvments"

- Guy reporting a bug in ORR shouldn't be jumped and
- called a troll.

You know what is really funny about all this? That missing church and mountain is not even a BUG! I know, I know, you dont understand right? Well the definition of a BUG is means that something does not work the way it was intended. Oleg and the team did not intend to put every garden hose, every car in the drive way, every hole dug in the back yard, every swig set in the school yard... In that Oleg and the team had to, like ADULTS realise early on that they only have so much time and money to do things. Thus they drew the line and produce one of the best.. no the best WWII COMBAT FLIGHT sim to date... both in the air and on the gnd... Mater of fact it is one of the FIRST to address the whole gnd attack aspect in any meaingful way... And what is thier reward? A bunch of kids whining that their favorate hill or building is not in the sim.

- And that seriously ticks me off.

GOOD!

- Especially when it comes from guys who "know
- Oleg's/Maddox Games' agenda", and what is important
- to them.

And dont forget it! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- But obviously it backfired, and we ended up in going
- circles trying to talk about perpective, opinion and
- importance...

You went in circles trying every angle to justify his statments. In the end you just showed how silly you are to expect every easter egg to be under every leaf. Wish for more? Sure, I wish for more mountains and churches... but, you wont see me saying it is a serious mistake, in that as an adult I realise that no sim to date has even come close to it... and maybe no sim ever will! Thus, you have to carve out what is important to you... And it is clear that from IL2 Oleg wanted to address the RUSSIAN prespective along with the GROUND attack aspect. Stating that is NOT ARROGANCE on my part, it is simply paying attention to it and understanding it for what it is, something you clearly have trouble with... STILL!


- ...which clearly was only counterproductive as the
- persons I was talking to didn't realise my point,

Is the reaction most adults expect from kids... The kid thinks the adult does not understand their point of view.. even though the adult was a kid once.. but the kid, who has not been an adult yet thinks he has it all figured out.. not until years later do the kids realise they were all wrong. So, in a few years you can email me and ask for forgiveness! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- and to the rest of the readers the original point
- of this thread and my point got cluttered.

Yup, it is clear that you think the correct way to "sugest improvments" is to start off by calling them a serious mistake, as if to imply they intended to put that none existing chruch on that none existing hill in and just forgot. And it is clear from your orginal post that you think that could have easly been done had Oleg just took the time to run the "churchOnTheHill.exe" program on the CD from the company "STOP TIME INC" where everyone lives for ever and has more money then they know what to do with

- Well, I guess I tried....

True... but if that is your best effort... You better start thinking about a back up plan in life!!



TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 04:50 AM
This may surprise some, even the old timers who have not seen this before::

The northwest (upper left) corner of the Stalingrad map has a vast network of ~very~ nice hills and valleys extending for a good 100km north and south. So this issue is not a FB grafix engine issue.

Funny, the terrain level lines on the FMB map look the same here as they do on the super flat maps like Kursk and Prokorovka.

btw....Lower left of Smolensk also has some fair elevations.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:02 AM
LEXX_Luthor wrote:
- This may surprise some, even the old timers who have
- not seen this before::
-
- The northwest (upper left) corner of the Stalingrad
- map has a vast network of ~very~ nice hills and
- valleys extending for a good 100km north and south.
- So this issue is not a FB grafix engine issue.

I dont think anyone is implying that IL2 cant do hills and mountians... far from! But they did note that doing ever mountain in every map was a very big task! Thus, they had to draw the line somewhere!

That, and even though you may not notice it, the more mountains and citys you model, the more of a hit on the frame rate... simple. So, you have to ask yourself... SELF, when Im chasing a jinking Fw190 over a city near a hill... am I more worried about a good frame rate that will enable me to get a better shot at that Fw190... or am I more worried about how many roof tiles are on that church we are flying by... And the answer to that question will also clear up what kind of sim you should be flying... If you said dump the church, let me shoot the Fw190 your flying the right game... If you said I would like to come back and count the roof tiles on that church after I shoot down that Fw190... than your in the wrong game!



TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:21 AM
Agreed! However I find low hills have little or no effect on framerate. The modest hills in the North~West Stalingrad map are overtaken by the intense cockpits in framerate hits.

Granted, the Kuban mountains do have a modest effect on framerate, but only modest. Its the forests in the Kuban mountains that kill framerates, not the mountains themselves. I especially hate when the totally meaningless individual trees decide to be displayed--and display all at one time no matter what distance they are.

Stalingrad map's hills are fortunately barren of forests. You know, FB is turning me totally against the environment. Slash and Burn the forests. Save the Framerates.

Tiling on church roofs. Yes, I believe some have Demanded that, like I have seen some Demand improved grafix for grass blades. I would hope somebody makes a Lawn Mower sim for Them.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:54 AM
WWMaxGunz wrote:
- Right. Mountains changed height and a castle was
- built since WWII...
-


hahaha, that was the funniest sarcastic comment ever



Message Edited on 07/21/0311:54PM by Timmothias

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 06:43 AM
LEXX_Luthor wrote:
- Agreed! However I find low hills have little or no
- effect on framerate. The modest hills in the
- North~West Stalingrad map are overtaken by the
- intense cockpits in framerate hits.

Agreed, modest hills, ie rolling hills with little change problly wouldnt... And I you and I and most folks realise that... The thing you and I realise, but most folks DONT realise is it still takes time and money to model any hill.

- Granted, the Kuban mountains do have a modest effect
- on framerate, but only modest.

The fact that it is even noticable is something though, in that once you get into some complex hills... like the cliffs of dover n such, or the alps with very DISTINTIVE lines... Well just imagine... I think, as a develper, your probally better off just leaving them out completly and saying "sorry the eng cant handle it" because no mater how good of a job you do on them... some noob is going to find one hump out of place... and if no hump out of place they will move on to some seriouse mistakes like "The white use in the cliffs of dover is off by two shades, please fix that" that... or the typical "it's never enough" from the X-GEN crowd of... "Hey, those trees you made... Why dont the blow in the wind when I fly low and buzz them? Please fix that!"

Yup.. in short Oleg should have just never even tried to make a COMBAT FLIGHT sim that has a ground attack aspect to it because no mater how good of a job you do... it will never be enough. Oh,and just to make it clear to all the kids out there... When I say it is never good enough, I dont mean that we shouldnt expet more as time goes by, or taht we shouldnt MAKE NOTE of a mistake in a building, forest, or hill... but to start off implying it is a BUG or a SERIOUSE MISTAKE is just WRONG!

- Its the forests in the Kuban mountains that kill
- framerates, not the mountains themselves. I
- especially hate when the totally meaningless
- individual trees decide to be displayed--and
- display all at one time no matter what distance
- they are.

OH GOD DONT SAY MEANINGLESS!!!! Because Im sure there is some noob here that has been there once and 10 guys in line behind him that will agree how MEANINGFULL that one tree is with his grilfriends name carved in it that they didnt model. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- Stalingrad map's hills are fortunately barren of
- forests. You know, FB is turning me totally against
- the environment. Slash and Burn the forests. Save
- the Framerates.
-
- Tiling on church roofs. Yes, I believe some have
- Demanded that, like I have seen some Demand improved
- grafix for grass blades. I would hope somebody makes
- a Lawn Mower sim for Them.

ROTFL!!



TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

Leimboy
07-22-2003, 11:21 AM
Tagert, you obviously only have a problem with the wording of the original post in this thread.

Why didn't you just say that so the original poster (who's native language MAY not be english /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif ) might learn something and post better in the future?

Why must you also insult so many people so much in this thread?

I'm just curious, because this forum is nothing like it used to be (back in the IL-2 days) nowadays.
Why can't people just be nice to eachother (except online of course /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ) and try to help those that are new to these forums instead of showing off with "cool" insults?

I'm just /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif by reading this thread.

Oh, and my native language is not english...

-Ron

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 12:37 PM
Leimboy wrote:
-
- Why must you also insult so many people so much in
- this thread?
-
- I'm just curious, because this forum is nothing like
- it used to be (back in the IL-2 days) nowadays.
- Why can't people just be nice to eachother (except


To my ears the first replies really sounded embarassing.
An offliner for example with no more than one book about A/c's is not necessarily aware of ammo belt composition flaws or roll rate problems.

I also think the maps should correspond to RL. Oleg told us he would not use satellite photographs as they would not match the man made surroundings of then. Some hills could indeed have survived the USAFs bomber fleet... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

These are good suggestions and easier to back up than the usual excel- vs excel-sheet flame wars of now.....

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 12:53 PM
Vo101_Isegrim wrote:
- Uhm... don`t want to kick Oleg, but his team was in
- a bit of trouble with the location of cities... K,
- the Tihany hill isn`t that big, a few hundred meters
- perhaps, but drat, if that was the problem, I would
- send him my god-knows-where-I-put primary school map
- atlas... even that had the height indicated with
- colours.

It would be a HUGE task to do it manually, I think.

Also published maps tend to have rather approximate
contours, in the sense that the sampling rate is not
very high. Ordnance Survey maps here at best (AFAIK)
have contours ever 50 feet (15m), and you can get
some quite obvious features within that variation on
an otherwise relatively flat landscape. Add to that
they fact that the OS data is copyrighted and you wouldn't
be legally allowed to use it anyway!

The NED/DEM database of the USA uses 10m or 30m
grid sizes, with about an 8m vertical resolution.
But I would imagine that Finland is publically
available in lower resolutions. The X-plane scenery
is from the USGS, and I am downloading the missing
bits now, so if someone can point me to Lake Balaton
I'll try taking a flight there in Xplane.

- I fear it`s just the lack of interest/resources in
- Oleg`s team to make heights correct. But I don`t
- understand, perhaps even a simple grayscale layer of
- height taken from a most humble map could do the
- trick... maybe not.

Elevation from shading is possible in theory, but
it's not trivial, and you'd need to know what process
was used to do the shading in the first place.

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 12:20 AM
I must say it is very funny to have someone say that this is supposed to be a realistic Ground Attack sim and in the same breath say that little things like mountains and churches in key towns don't matter.
What makes it realistic then? Just the way the plane behaves?
If this sim was about the 8th AF bombing of Germany or the RAF night raids, I would agree with you, but since this sim is based very strong on below 15k with one of it's main purposes being ground attack, the envinroment within which you fly is as important as the planes you fly.
BTW, your fan boi attitude about being "in line" with Oleg doesn't make you right. It makes you very childish and churlish.
I would prefer to have better terrain as well. I don't expect perfection, but if there is a 3k foot mountain somewhere that I should be dodging during a rocket/strafing run, then it should be there.
If the terrain isn't correct for a ground attack sim within 1000 feet, then it is arcadish and if it is because of a lack of hiring enough people to accomplish the task it was because of bad decision's being made.
This isn't whining, it means I have a higher standard for what is "Realistic" than you do.
Also, don't answer for Oleg, if you have a posting where He or one of the reps from 1C or Ubi have commented on it, then post it. If not, say you didn't agree with the title, and walk away. We do understand that it is time consuming to be correct in all avenues, and it does take money, but then again, this is important to us even if it isn't to you.
The ability to take historical documents and build a mission or campaign and have the correct envinroment in place is important and that makes the whole sim realistic, not just the planes.
But I don't expect a fan boi child to understand that.
Mirthain=FC=

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 04:02 AM
Mirthain wrote:
- I must say it is very funny to have someone say that
- this is supposed to be a realistic Ground Attack sim
- and in the same breath say that little things like
- mountains and churches in key towns don't matter.
- What makes it realistic then?

Oh god that is easy to answer! What makes it realistic-ish is the GROUND TARGETS! Things like ships, trucks, motorcycles, tanks, factorys, fule depots, etc... You know the things that is typically attacked during a WWII. Note I say TYPICALLY and REALISTIC-ISH... which is not to be confused with ALLWAYS and REALISTIC respecfully!

- Just the way the plane behaves?

Not just, but it is the most important part yes!

- If this sim was about the 8th AF bombing of Germany
- or the RAF night raids, I would agree with you,

GOOD! As you should! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- but since this sim is based very strong on below 15k
- with one of it's main purposes being ground attack,

As I pointed out, yet, continue.

- the envinroment within which you fly is as important
- as the planes you fly.

Disagree 100%!! The ground envinroment is not! The ground TARGETS are nealy as important! And last time I checked, 99 out of 100 targets did NOT consist of a church and or mountain.

- BTW, your fan boi attitude about being "in line"
- with Oleg doesn't make you right.

Depends on what your definition of right is, but one thing it does make me is in line with real world aspects of developing anything. In that in the real world adults realise that there are only so many hours in a day.. And sense you have not caught onto that statement yet, allow me to paint another one for you. Imagine a pie... if you take a 1/4 slice of pie use it to develope mountains and churches, it leaves 3/4 of the pie to do the rest of the sim. Any of that sinking in yet? If not, let me know I can come up with a less than 5th grade example!!

- It makes you very childish and churlish.

Disagree 100%


- Di I would prefer to have better terrain as well. I
- don't expect perfection, but if there is a 3k foot
- mountain somewhere that I should be dodging during a
- rocket/strafing run, then it should be there.

Yup, and in a perfect world we should all win the loto too, but here in the real world adults know it is not likly to happen.

- If the terrain isn't correct for a ground attack sim
- within 1000 feet, then it is arcadish

Disagree 100%!! If you had only not been born been alive 10 years ago to play the likes of AOTP and AOE you might apreaciate how far sims have come, but as a youngster all you have to base you statments on is IL2, so I can cut you some slack for being so clueless and making that statment.

- because of a lack of hiring enough people to
- accomplish the task it was because of bad decision's
- being made.

LOL! See, kids think there is some limitless amount of time and money to do things! Sad really!

- This isn't whining, it means I have a higher
- standard for what is "Realistic" than you do.

Nope, it is clueles whining at it's worst!

- Also, don't answer for Oleg, if you have a posting
- where He or one of the reps from 1C or Ubi have
- commented on it, then post it.

Never did, I simply made not of the obvious.

- If not, say you didn't agree with the title, and
- walk away.

LOL! Ok kid, Ill get right on that!

- We do understand that it is time consuming to be
- correct in all avenues, and it does take money,
- but then again, this is important to us even if
- it isn't to you.

Cake and eat it too huh? Sorry, that wont fly with me kid! You can condem the sim on one hand for not having a mountain at a certain hight... and IN THE SAME BREATH say you understand!! That kind of logic might cut it in 5th grade, but not here!

- The ability to take historical documents and build a
- mission or campaign and have the correct envinroment
- in place is important and that makes the whole sim
- realistic, not just the planes.

Never said it wasnt, I just realised the limitation of real life, unlike you and yours.

- But I don't expect a fan boi child to understand
- that.

LOL! Kids! God love em!



TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 04:11 AM
Leimboy wrote:
- Tagert, you obviously only have a problem with the
- wording of the original post in this thread.

Only? No, more than just the title.

- Why didn't you just say that so the original poster

Was making a point.

- (who's native language MAY not be english)

English or not, it wouldnt have made much difference to me, in that most of what I had to say on this topic was to what was said well after the orginal post.

- might learn something and post
- better in the future?

God I hope so! And no better way to learn something then by making a mistake!


- Why must you also insult so many people so much in
- this thread?

Tit for Tat

- I'm just curious, because this forum is nothing like
- it used to be (back in the IL-2 days) nowadays.

LOL! Tiz the nature of the internet! Harry S said it best, if you cant stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!

- Why can't people just be nice to each other (except
- online of course ) and try to help those that are
- new to these forums instead of showing off with
- "cool" insults?

Because they tend to drive the point home better IMHO, that and I have tried the nice approch in the past, just does not work as well! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- I'm just by reading this thread.

Well, Harry did say it best! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 07:52 AM
AaronGT wrote:
-
- Also published maps tend to have rather approximate
- contours, in the sense that the sampling rate is not
- very high. Ordnance Survey maps here at best (AFAIK)
- have contours ever 50 feet (15m), and you can get
- some quite obvious features within that variation on
- an otherwise relatively flat landscape. Add to that
- they fact that the OS data is copyrighted and you
- wouldn't
- be legally allowed to use it anyway!
-


Just nitpicking here, but there are 10m contours available on 1:25000 OS mapping, and they sell all of their data to anyone that will pay for it, mainly in digital formats these days.


What bugs me about the maps is the use of modern map data instead of historical - there are huge reservoirs all over the Stalingrad map that just weren't there during WW2. That's just sloppy research.

And for Tagert's benefit - BTW what is your problem with this kids and adults stuff? - there is no point providing a map that purports be of somewhere if it doesn't look anything like it. If, as you say, the ground targets are the all important thing, then why did Oleg give us more than the online fantasy island maps. Why bother modelling Leningrad etc at all?

The clue is on the box - 'Discover the war on the Eastern front with the most accurate historical combat flight simulation ever created'.

The words 'Discover the war on the Eastern front' along with 'historical' imply a great deal of research and effort, which as we know has been put into all aspects of this game APART from the maps. It seems a shame to spoil the ship for a ha'porth of tar.

<CENTER>


<IMG SRC="http://www.apqa16.dsl.pipex.com/sig5.jpg"


Then a powerful demon, a prowler through the dark,
nursed a hard grievance.

Leimboy
07-23-2003, 10:35 AM
tagert wrote:
- Leimboy wrote:
-- might learn something and post
-- better in the future?
-
- God I hope so! And no better way to learn something
- then by making a mistake!

You are absolutely right! So how much have you learned from your postings in this thread? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


- LOL! Tiz the nature of the internet! Harry S said it
- best, if you cant stand the heat, get out of the
- kitchen!

Oh no, I like very much to read your responses. I think they are funny. Quite entertaining /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
"Tiz the nature of the internet!" is a fact, but isn't it worth a little extra effort to make it better?
The extra effort would be to think twice (or more, if necessary) before you type your answer in a polite way.
We all know that every forum popular enough will be the target of "kids" (ref. to mental age) to insult and say things they don't dare to say in real life.
In the IL-2/FB forums most people are adults (mentally) so we should be able to keep a nice tone here.
I just don't want to see ORR or GD go down the same drain as PL.

-- Why can't people just be nice to each other (except
-- online of course ) and try to help those that are
-- new to these forums instead of showing off with
-- "cool" insults?
-
- Because they tend to drive the point home better
- IMHO, that and I have tried the nice approch in the
- past, just does not work as well!

Strange! I always try to be polite to people having questions or want changes. And, believe it or not, it is working very well! And I see examples of that every day! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
Hmmm....I wonder why you fail?

Since this is in the ORR I will no longer respond here, because I think the original poster's view have been noted by Oleg if he's seen this thread, and all that is left to discuss is how much importance hills/mountains/buildings has (and I believe Oleg is the right man to decide this in his own creation), and the rest will be bashings between people, wich have no place in ORR.

-Ron

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 04:39 PM
Leimboy wrote:
- You are absolutely right! So how much have you
- learned from your postings in this thread?

TONS! In that as an adult I not only learn from my mistakes, but learn from other peoples mistakes.

- Oh no, I like very much to read your responses. I
- think they are funny. Quite entertaining

Yeah, the kids are at least good for that!

- "Tiz the nature of the internet!" is a fact, but
- isn't it worth a little extra effort to make it
- better?

Oh I see your mistake... your operating under the impression that I have never put in a little extra effort, just know I have... and on ocations still do, but with all the internet experance I have gathered over the years I have learn to spot the ones that are not worth the effort. For example, the advid KID midset here in this thread, where they have this beuty pagent mind set ie "I WANT TO FEED THE WORLD AND STOP WARS" along with thier belive that there is an endless amount of time and money to do things... When I see early on that type of mind set, I realise the only chance I have of getting through to them is in a very adult to child manor... ie being nice with an extra effor... wont work! In that I DONT HAVE AN ENDLESS AMOUNT OF TIME TO TEACH THESE KIDS HOW TO THINK LIKE AN ADULT!!!

- The extra effort would be to think twice (or more,
- if necessary) before you type your answer in a
- polite way.

See above.

- We all know that every forum popular enough will be
- the target of "kids" (ref. to mental age) to insult
- and say things they don't dare to say in real life.

Agree 100%! At 6' 4" 225lbs I went to a WarBirds convention once, and all those little BIG MOUTHS that had no trouble telling me off in a fourm were all kissing my A at the convention when face to face. Was So Dang Funny to watch them shak in thier boots!

- In the IL-2/FB forums most people are adults
- (mentally) so we should be able to keep a nice tone
- here.

Disagree 100%! If I detect an adult manor, Ill go easy on them, but once they pull out the lolly pops.. fare game!

- I just don't want to see ORR or GD go down the same
- drain as PL.

Too Late!

- Strange! I always try to be polite to people having
- questions or want changes. And, believe it or not,
- it is working very well! And I see examples of that
- every day! Hmmm....I wonder why you fail?

Life experance, work and 13 years in the military teaches you to spot problems early on and cut your losses and move on to the next.

- Since this is in the ORR I will no longer respond
- here, because I think the original poster's view
- have been noted by Oleg if he's seen this thread,
- and all that is left to discuss is how much
- importance hills/mountains/buildings has (and I
- believe Oleg is the right man to decide this in his
- own creation), and the rest will be bashings between
- people, wich have no place in ORR.

Oleg has allready decided, Im just noting how his decisions were based on the reality of life and not the beauty pagent mind set of "I WANT TO STOP ALL WARS AND FEED THE HUNGRY".



TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 05:05 PM
Dunkelgrun wrote:
- And for Tagert's benefit - BTW what is your problem
- with this kids and adults stuff?

Just call em as I see em.

- there is no point providing a map that purports
- be of somewhere if it doesn't look anything like
- it.

Disagree 100%

- If, as you say, the ground targets are the all
- important thing,

DING!

- then why did Oleg give us more than the online
- fantasy island maps.

Because you were wrong when you said "there is no point providing a map that purports be of somewhere if it doesn't look anything like it" because it does look like it! Perfect? NOPE! And no sim to date has been perfect, and most likly no sim ever will!


- Why bother modelling Leningrad etc at all?

Because alot of things went on around leningrad.... Ever hear about WWII?

- The clue is on the box - 'Discover the war on the
- Eastern front with the most accurate historical
- combat flight simulation ever created'.

Agreed! And you missed the CLUE, it being the tag line(s) of "MOST ACCURATE" and "EVER CREATED" And adult would read that and get the impression that it is saying THIS SIM is going to be MORE accurate, not PERFECTALLY accurate than any sim to date (ie EVER CREATED). Pretty simple when someone breaks it down for you aint it? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- The words 'Discover the war on the Eastern front'
- along with 'historical' imply a great deal of
- research and effort, which as we know has been put
- into all aspects of this game

Agree 100%

-APART from the maps.

Disagree 100%


- It seems a shame to spoil the ship for a ha'porth
- of tar.

Not spoiled here, but sorry to bust your bubble on the whole BOX TEXT thing... It is clear you were reading things into it that were just not there... Kids tend to do that, so what is your excuse?



TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 01:05 AM
AaronGT wrote:

- It would be a HUGE task to do it manually, I think.

I think they still do it manually to some degree, as they have been using printed period maps. Not a fact though.


- The NED/DEM database of the USA uses 10m or 30m
- grid sizes, with about an 8m vertical resolution.
- But I would imagine that Finland is publically
- available in lower resolutions.

Finland is digitally available atleast in such detail what you can purchase 1:20000 on paper, it has height lines every meter (or every half a meter). But the detail used for the game has to be much more limited. Even if huge polycount is used, detail may remain very low. For example if we imagine a map, say 300x100 kilometres (smaller than current Finland map IIRC) with 100m grid, we will end up 6 million polys compared to plane models few thousand. Still FB maps do have great amount of detail in contour, and generally succeed in creating illusion of landscape below very well without bogging down our little machines.

Indeed IMHO using the same polygon count with more difference in height where geographically required (Balaton map mountains) would already produce highly beliavable presentation of the area. This wouldn't even make any difference in the frame rates or such. So it may well be that there are some underlaying matters that prevent certain geographical forms from being used that we do not know of, like the problems with the rocky cliffs by the sea shore now featured as an object in the FMB.


-jippo


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 04:29 AM
TAGERT I think you have a MOST INTRIGUING style of writing your POSTS and PLAN on adopting it in MINE from here unto the END OF TIME.

BTW I rode a TRAIN along the SHORE of BALATON a few months ago and even though it was the OPPOSITE SHORE from that hill you guys are talking about there was a REALLY CUTE GIRL in the train car I mean DAMN and I find it essential that SHE get into the game AS WELL.



Be seeing you.

Message Edited on 07/23/0311:30PM by Earwicker

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 04:55 AM
Earwicker wrote:
- TAGERT I think you have a MOST INTRIGUING style of
- writing your POSTS and PLAN on adopting it in MINE
- from here unto the END OF TIME.

GREAT! I cant TELL you HOW happy I am THAT you THINK so! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- BTW I rode a TRAIN along the SHORE of BALATON a few
- months ago and even though it was the OPPOSITE SHORE
- from that hill you guys are talking about there was
- a REALLY CUTE GIRL in the train car I mean DAMN and
- I find it essential that SHE get into the game AS
- WELL.

LOL! Yup.. no mater how much they model.. there is allways more that could be added! That is to say, you can please some of the people all of the time, but you cant please all of the people some of the time.

- Be seeing you.

Ok, be watching for you!



TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 10:15 AM
tagert wrote:
- Dunkelgrun wrote:
-
-- there is no point providing a map that purports
-- be of somewhere if it doesn't look anything like
-- it.
-
- Disagree 100%
-

???? Reasoning? Ever used a map to get from A to B in real life? Ever got lost?

-- Why bother modelling Leningrad etc at all?
-
- Because alot of things went on around leningrad....
- Ever hear about WWII?


Idiot.


-- The clue is on the box - 'Discover the war on the
-- Eastern front with the most accurate historical
-- combat flight simulation ever created'.
-
- Agreed! And you missed the CLUE, it being the tag
- line(s) of "MOST ACCURATE" and "EVER CREATED" And
- adult would read that and get the impression that it
- is saying THIS SIM is going to be MORE accurate, not
- PERFECTALLY accurate than any sim to date (ie EVER
- CREATED).


So you'd be happy if the Bf109 was modelled as a biplane, because that's all they could be bothered to do?


-- along with 'historical' imply a great deal of
-- research and effort, which as we know has been put
-- into all aspects of this game
-
- Agree 100%
-
--APART from the maps.
-
- Disagree 100%
-
-
My opionion v.your opinion. You're happy and I'm not. End of subject. My last post on this now pointless thread, Bye.

<CENTER>


<IMG SRC="http://www.apqa16.dsl.pipex.com/sig5.jpg"


Then a powerful demon, a prowler through the dark,
nursed a hard grievance.

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 03:40 PM
Dunkelgrun wrote:
- ???? Reasoning?

Simple, so simple that most kids miss it! It being that you were wrong when you said:

"there is no point providing a map that purports be of somewhere if it doesn't look ANYTHING like it"

In that the maps do look ALOT like it! Now try and follow me here, because this is pretty adult stuff, so Ill go slow.. The MAJOR FEATURES are pretty well captured on the maps, i.e. rivers, lakes, citys, forests, etc.. you know the things that you would use as a referance from 10K feet while looking at your map. That is to say, a church is probally not going to do you much good from 10k feet, but the outline of that land mass that sticks out into the lake will. Was that too fast for you? Let me know if it was, I can come up with another example.

- Ever used a map to get from A to B
- in real life? Ever got lost?

Yes and No.. Say, while your on that note I think it is important for you kids to consider another thing. Alot of pilots used time to target and a coumpus to get from one place to another, never once looking at a map and getting a reference, until they got to the GENERAL AREA... You kids ever hear of the NAVY? You know those guys that flew over miles and miles of water... map references didnt do them much good there... GOSH I wonder how they ever got anywhere? And what about those white puffy things that use to block the 8th air forces view of the GROUND... How did they ever get from ENGLAND to the point they wanted to bomb without seeing a church on the ground from 30k feet? The preceding sarcasim was presented for you noob, to try and get you to realise that a map with MAJOR FEATURES is all you need to get around... in that the maps normaly dont show the car parked in the driveway of a church anyways.


-- Because alot of things went on around leningrad....
-- Ever hear about WWII?
-
-
- Idiot.

Now now... Dont be too hard on yourself, I was just trying to drive home a point that you missed about what went on in and around leningrad.


-- Agreed! And you missed the CLUE, it being the tag
-- line(s) of "MOST ACCURATE" and "EVER CREATED" And
-- adult would read that and get the impression that it
-- is saying THIS SIM is going to be MORE accurate, not
-- PERFECTALLY accurate than any sim to date (ie EVER
-- CREATED).
-
-
- So you'd be happy if the Bf109 was modelled as a
- biplane, because that's all they could be bothered
- to do?

Hey, nice nood try there!! Big gold star for effort! But that extream example might work on the kids, but for us adults it just shows how desperate you are and how empty your argument is if you have to resort to an extream nood example like that... When it is clear your just trying to avoid the fact that I nailed you on your child like interpetation of what was writen on the box.

- My opionion v.your opinion.

Agreed 100%, your beauty pagent view vs. my adult real world view.

- You're happy and I'm not.

Try getting laid once, it will clear up your face and take that child like edge off your posts.

- End of subject. My last post on this now
- pointless thread, Bye.

Oh.. I was wrong above, this is actually your best example of how desperate and empty your argument is.


TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 03:42 PM
whoops double post

TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

Message Edited on 07/24/0307:44AM by tagert

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 09:42 PM
As a newcomer to FB I've been reading some of the ORR posts, but this one caught the eye... I'm so pleased that 99% of the FB community can discuss the finer points of the game in a constructive way, it seems there's a good mix of veterans and newbies with things to say. Regardless of the feasibility of suggestions, most posts are argued over in an adult way, with fair respect that a lot of people are new, and/or don't speak English as their first language....

But please, Tagert, its sounding like an episode of Scooby Doo... "damn those pesky KIDS". Try and argue your points in an adult way, or responses like yours might stifle some good ideas...

Oh, My opinion on the "serious" issue of the terrain detail: If it really is an important historical feature, then it should be included if the game technology permits it - given that other key buildings/features are included in other cities.

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 03:04 AM
Tagert....
"there is no point providing a map that purports be of somewhere if it doesn't look ANYTHING like it"

In that the maps do look ALOT like it! Now try and follow me here, because this is pretty adult stuff, so Ill go slow.. The MAJOR FEATURES are pretty well captured on the maps, i.e. rivers, lakes, citys, forests, etc.. you know the things that you would use as a referance from 10K feet while looking at your map. That is to say, a church is probally not going to do you much good from 10k feet, but the outline of that land mass that sticks out into the lake will. Was that too fast for you? Let me know if it was, I can come up with another example.

What? But you just said this is a ground attack sim so what the hell are you doing at 10k feet?
You are arguing out of both sides of your mouth.
The only argument you have claimed that is even remotely correct is that it may have taken more time and money than what 1C wanted to spend. Beyond that you are doing nothing but insulting people without a point.
BTW, I used to fly F-18 on the Amiga. I do remember the old sim's... Swotl, AOP, AOE, Their Finest Hour.... of course I also remember that they were pretty much all 90% dogfighting or bomber intercept sim's.
But according to your argument, this sim would look like those. I remember being able to find the Trains and Armor columns without any issue at all in AOE and AOP. I also remember the Flak Towers in Swotl and the map that may have been featureless, but correct, that went from east of Berlin to England. With the towns in the right places and important towns for the historical representation of the sim included.
You are arguing a non issue. We believe that this is important for the sim to be correct. We feel that it is as important as a correct FM or loadout.
We have even treated you with respect of your position, yet you have childishly attacked us and called us names. I believe that most people prefer to have correct maps. Including large landmarks like MOUNTAINS in the correct places. I'm sorry if you are so short sighted that you can't see anothers point of view and let it go, but that is a sign of being immature so perhaps the reason you call us kids is because of your own limitations.....
Then again, you could just be a pathetic troll.... heh
Mirthain=FC=

The_Blue_Devil
07-25-2003, 04:01 AM
Jippo01 wrote:
-
- The_Blue_Devil wrote:
-- People fight over the smallest things...
-
-
- Don't they! Like .50 cal performance and all!
- Unbeliavable! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
-
-

Look man..the performance of the .50cal and not being able to see "Uncle Yuri's House" are two different things. I agree that the landmark stuff is a bit much...like missing mountains..but you can only expect so much at one time. Hopefully they will get it correct. Maybe it's me but I just don't stop to look at the landmarks with Hun's trying to shoot my Jug from under me at 30,000ft.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySig.gif> </center>



Message Edited on 07/25/0303:07AM by The_Blue_Devil

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 04:36 AM
Flake99 wrote:
- But please, Tagert, its sounding like an episode of
- Scooby Doo... "damn those pesky KIDS".

LOL!

- Try and argue your points in an adult way,

BEEN!

- or responses like yours might stifle some
- good ideas...

Good ideas? Never! This stuff, GOD I HOPE SO!


- Oh, My opinion on the "serious" issue of the terrain
- detail: If it really is an important historical
- feature, then it should be included if the game
- technology permits it - given that other key
- buildings/features are included in other cities.

Well, important historical is a relitive term, that is what might be important to one group might not mean **** to another. But, that is another topic. The topic here is very simple, so simple that most just cant understand it. And it apears you too have fell into it. With that said, note that I too feel that everything should be included, even the un-important stuff... BUT, I, as an adult, realise that there are only so many hours in a day and only so much money to develope soemthig, that copuled with the understanding that a missing chuch is not a bug, nor a serious mistake if it was never intended to be in there in the fist place.


TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 05:02 AM
Mirthain wrote:
- Tagert....

Mirthain...

- What?

Huh?

- But you just said this is a ground attack sim

Yes I did.

- so what the hell are you doing at 10k feet?

Navigation!

- You are arguing out of both sides of your mouth.

Oh, Im sorry, are you under the impression that they used maps at 100ft while doging bullets? And are you under the impression that those maps had every little house posted on them? Because that is what you would need to make use of it at low alt. The way you make a map useful is to pick out the MAJOR LAND FEATURES, i.e. rivers, lakes, citys,
- forests, etc.. Things that you could make out from just about any alt.

- The only argument you have claimed that is even
- remotely correct is that it may have taken more time
- and money than what 1C wanted to spend.

DING DING DING... GIVE THAT MAN A CIGAR!

- Beyond that you are doing nothing but insulting
- people without a point.

Disagree 100%

- BTW, I used to fly F-18 on the Amiga. I do remember
- the old sim's... Swotl, AOP, AOE, Their Finest
- Hour.... of course I also remember that they were
- pretty much all 90% dogfighting or bomber intercept
- sim's.

So.

- But according to your argument, this sim would look
- like those.

LOL! You coldnt be more wrong if you tried to be!

- I remember being able to find the
- Trains and Armor columns without any issue at all in
- AOE and AOP. I also remember the Flak Towers in
- Swotl and the map that may have been featureless,
- but correct, that went from east of Berlin to
- England. With the towns in the right places and
- important towns for the historical representation of
- the sim included.

But was that chruch on the hill? Oh wait, there was no hills at all? *snicker*

- You are arguing a non issue.

Disagree 100%! My argument is very simple, so simple most and even you missed it.

- We believe that this is important for the sim to
- be correct. We feel that it is as important as a
- correct FM or loadout.

Well, Im just glad that the makers of IL2 dont belive like you do, otherwise they would have never finished it in that they would have ran out of money developing the garden hose that was connected to the brass water pipe of the church. Thank god adults develped and marketed this sim in the real world and not some farie tail place with ice cream trees an soda pop rivers.

- We have even treated you with respect of your
- position, yet you have childishly attacked us and
- called us names.

LOL! That is the biggest load yet!! You need to go back and re-read some of the posts... the first ones to me and note I basically gave back what I recived... Just dont ding me for doing a better job of it! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- I believe that most people prefer to have
- correct maps. Including large landmarks like
- MOUNTAINS in the correct places.

Disagree 100%! I believe that EVERYONE prefers to have correct maps... It's just that MOST understand that no mater how much you put in, it will never be enough, in that there will allways be some noob with some black and white photo that shows a building that is not in the sim. It is very simple concept... There is only so much time and so much money to develop things!!! Is it wrong to *wish* and even *ask* for more? NO! But is it wrong to call something a *serious* mistake when it clearly isnt? YES!! And try and bend words around and blaim it on not speaking english all you want like jappo, but that is not how you sugest improvments!!

- I'm sorry if you are so short sighted that you
- can't see anothers point of view and let it go,
- but that is a sign of being immature

No, actually it is just a misunderstanding on your part. Simply put Im putting it all into prespective for the kids, and at the same time making the argument that there are MUCH MORE IMPORTANT things that need to be FIXED and ADDED before some church on a hill or a higher mountain.

- so perhaps the reason you call us
- kids is because of your own limitations.....

Nope, not at all! Just when faced with a majority of beauty pagent mind sets, you sometimes have to raddle the cage prety hard to make them see the light of of the real harsh world before they will even begin to apreciate what it is they have. You are a prefect example of it, you have been around sense the AOE days and you can not even see how much better the ground aspect of this sim is over that. Dang shame really!

- Then again, you could just be a pathetic troll....
- heh

LOL! Now is this the part that others will SKIP over when they tell me Im the one being childish and or mean and or not teating people nicly? I give what I recive... probem is Im just so much better at it than you kids! I slam your weak arguments so well that you come back with "This is the last I have to say on this.... Im taking my ball and going home!"

Well break my hart! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 08:01 AM
*yawn*

just another "offline make it historically accurate" versus "online give us a good dogfight" thread http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 10:58 AM
did someone say something? I seem to have fallen asleep.

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 10:59 AM
WTE_Galway wrote:
- *yawn*
-
- just another "offline make it historically accurate"
- versus "online give us a good dogfight" thread /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
-
-

hmm, no
it is an interesting discussion how to improve the IL2 maps.
Most people think the overall maps are to flat and a way should be found to change this.

ignore this "tagert" thing, it is useless to argue with him.

1. the statement "your a kid, your wrong" has two parts ("kid" and "wrong") without logical connection between or to the things other have said, it is meaningless.
you can replace "kid" with any other subject, without changing the "trueness" of the sentence. It is not possible to prove it right or wrong.
you can belive it or not, if you belive it you can use it to show that everything others say is wrong.

2. only Oleg can decide where "the line" is

3. if you demand, it is possible you don't get, but if you don't demand you should not wonder if you don't get.


quiet_man

second foundation member of the EURO_Snoopy fan club!

I'm quiet_man, but if I post I post quiet much /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Tully__
07-25-2003, 08:52 PM
Enough.

Tagert, take a chill pill. The badly worded thread title doesn't break the rules, it only indicates a less than perfect understanding of the use of English. Oleg and crew can make their own decisions on priorities, they don't need 30 posts in one thread from you. One or two would have sufficed.

It may also be a good idea for you to take your own advice on how to post in a polite and considerate manner.

There are others in this thread who have contributed to this 4 pages of posts that mostly add nothing to the original topic. You may also like to consider your approach to this sort of discussion.


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Tully