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MB_Avro_UK
07-26-2007, 01:40 PM
Hi all,

This sim was created with regard to the East Front. And thanks to Oleg for drawing not only my attention to this battle-front and also many more guys from the west http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I have read different accounts as to how many Russians were killed in WW2. All figures are huge.

Is there an official estimate?

What is sure is that the East Front battles were massive in comparison to all other fronts in WW2.

90% of all German troops killed in WW2 wre killed fighting the Russians.

Whilst we argue about rates of turn and climb between various aircraft...it is worth bearing this in mind.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Kongo Otto
07-26-2007, 01:51 PM
About 20 to 22 Millions,both civilian and miltary.

joeap
07-26-2007, 01:53 PM
I'll post links but suggest reading Krivosheev's Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses ISBN 1-85367-280-7 and Overmans Deutsche militrische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg for detail (well a German friend of mine had the latter).

Some links:

Democide (http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE5.HTM)

World War II Combatants and Casualties (1937 - 45) (http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/%7Ejobrien/reference/ob62.html)

WWII casualties (http://www.secondworldwar.co.uk/casualty.html)

Wikipedia for more stats and references:

WWII casualties (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties)

Not sure of that stat 90% of German troops were casualties in Russia...needs more precision. Certainly true of ground forces, and I've heard that the % as 80. Not true of the Luftwaffe nor the Kriegsmarine which were important even if not highest number wise.

Very difficult and depressing...a few thousand here or there. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

LW_lcarp
07-26-2007, 01:57 PM
thats what I found myself 20 to 22 million Now think of it this way about 50 million were killed in World War 2. So 40 percent of casualities were Russian

alert_1
07-26-2007, 02:02 PM
About 20 milions, from 1917 to 1953 is estimated that as many as 70 milions of people lost life in violent way or by starvation in former USSR..

Klemm.co
07-26-2007, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by LW_lcarp:
thats what I found myself 20 to 22 million Now think of it this way about 50 million were killed in World War 2. So 40 percent of casualities were Russian
The total was about 80 millions i thought. But that would make the Russian casualties still one quarter of the whole number of 'em.

Waldo.Pepper
07-26-2007, 02:15 PM
AJP Taylor says 20 million as well.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/score/score2.jpg

Rammjaeger
07-26-2007, 02:44 PM
I recall reading that the Russian Scientific Academy provided these figures in 1994: total number of dead 27 million, of these 9 million members of armed forces KIA. About 1/7th of the whole population.

From another source:

"In the course of "The Great Patriotic War 1941-1945", the Soviet
Union mobilized 29,574,900 men. Wartime turnover in manpower
amounted to 21,700,000. During 1,418 days of barbarized warfare,
bereft of any legal or moral constraints, the Red Army's battlefield losses
were more than half those 21 million, 11,440,100 men put permanently
out of action. Almost one million men were variously convicted:
376,300 charged with desertion and 422,700 sentenced to service in
penal battalions, or strafbats, assigned to the most dangerous sectors.
Civilians were not spared. German rule in occupied territory took
the lives of some 16,350,000 citizens, shot, starved, neglected, or
murdered in concentration camps. More than two million were
deported for slave labour in the Reich. Soviet soldiers and civilians
shared a combined death toll of 27-28 million souls."

From the book "Hitler vs Stalin - the Eastern Front in photographs"

Hawgdog
07-26-2007, 03:14 PM
In the ten years following the war, the number that died is literally astronomical- Stalins great plan you know..

crazyivan1970
07-26-2007, 03:23 PM
Until all archives are open from 1917 to say 1953 - we will never know. All pretty much guestimates.

Chris0382
07-26-2007, 03:36 PM
Ive seen estimates as high as 50 million including 6 million Ukranians killed by Stalin I think.

We'll never know really. I think its accepted as around 26 million. I cant even imagine what to do with a million bodies let alone 26 million.

Just like the earth around were the concentration camps were, there must be plenty of ground were you can reach in and pull up a handful of bone meal today.

VMF-214_HaVoK
07-26-2007, 03:38 PM
Too many!

S!

M_Gunz
07-27-2007, 03:13 AM
I think that Havok has the best reply, I add the word 'Far' to the front please.

At the end of WWI there was a flu plague that killed 20 million worldwide and precipitated a
great economic fall for many years on world scale. In the US it was put off by inflation but
due to irresponsible actions in the US it finally did hit the US badly. Hey, as long as some
people are 'haves' the uncontrolled waste (aka party) goes on. It is still true.

To have that much in one country alone, even such a huge one, is total horror.

It was worse in some places as I had read in a book just on the Siege of Leningrad.
Anyone here think they would sure have lived through that? Only the hardest did.

Hawgdog
07-27-2007, 05:27 AM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Until all archives are open from 1917 to say 1953 - we will never know. All pretty much guestimates.

No doubt, and with the modern mindset taking over, I am wondering if those will see the light of day.
As the world gets smaller, no doubt those who are aware of the storage location of such info no doubt will begin to wonder how the world would react to a delicate emerging Russia. (economy wise) Its still tedious walking over there as I understand it.
I'm still hoping a warehouse with a few million mausers with matching serial numbers shows up!

DIRTY-MAC
07-27-2007, 05:28 AM
Look up China some even claim more Chinese people died during WWII than in russia...

China and Russia had the biggest human losses during WWII

Rammjaeger
07-27-2007, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
AJP Taylor says 20 million as well.


In all likelihood, the 20 million figure is BS, released as an official Soviet estimate during the Cold War. I have seen a Soviet monograph about WW2, released in 1969, which gave total human losses/country during WW2. It read:

"Soviet Union: 20 million
Germany: 13,6 million..."

The 13,6 million figure is BS as well, another example of the traditional Soviet practice of grossly overestimating enemy losses and underestimating own losses. In fact, the Soviets originally estimated their WW2 losses to be 7 million (given by Stalin during a 1946 speech), which is downright ludicrous. I've recently heard Russian historians claim that Soviet losses were about 1,5 million in the battle of Moscow alone.

Chinese losses are probably even more difficult to calculate. I've seen estimates ranging from 11 to 34 million. A recent study claims that 1 million Chinese died due to Japanese biological warfare alone.

carguy_
07-27-2007, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by Hawgdog:
I'm still hoping a warehouse with a few million mausers with matching serial numbers shows up!

Well I dunno. Two years ago a monstrous stash of LW aircraft has been discovered under an airfield in some western country I don`t remember.
They just rounded them up and stashed under the carpet!What a creepy view this must have been.

cawimmer430
07-27-2007, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by carguy_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hawgdog:
I'm still hoping a warehouse with a few million mausers with matching serial numbers shows up!

Well I dunno. Two years ago a monstrous stash of LW aircraft has been discovered under an airfield in some western country I don`t remember.
They just rounded them up and stashed under the carpet!What a creepy view this must have been. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where did this happen? I'd love to see some pictures of this! I love hanging out in car junkyards, so this airplane "junkyard" is a must see for me! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

msalama
07-27-2007, 12:19 PM
27 million is the total figure I've seen.

Yeah, this is a game. The real Barbarossa, however, was an immeasurable tragedy and the most ruthless piece of warfare _ever_ witnessed by mankind.

Kinda makes U think a bit now and then, now doesn't it?

Rammjaeger
07-27-2007, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by cawimmer430:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hawgdog:
I'm still hoping a warehouse with a few million mausers with matching serial numbers shows up!

Well I dunno. Two years ago a monstrous stash of LW aircraft has been discovered under an airfield in some western country I don`t remember.
They just rounded them up and stashed under the carpet!What a creepy view this must have been. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where did this happen? I'd love to see some pictures of this! I love hanging out in car junkyards, so this airplane "junkyard" is a must see for me! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I recall reading something similar about Tempelhof airport, Berlin. Apparently there are many bombs, other ordnance and aircraft parts in abandoned underground bunkers.

Kurfurst__
07-27-2007, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by cawimmer430:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hawgdog:
I'm still hoping a warehouse with a few million mausers with matching serial numbers shows up!

Well I dunno. Two years ago a monstrous stash of LW aircraft has been discovered under an airfield in some western country I don`t remember.
They just rounded them up and stashed under the carpet!What a creepy view this must have been. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where did this happen? I'd love to see some pictures of this! I love hanging out in car junkyards, so this airplane "junkyard" is a must see for me! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think under Tempelhof or some airport near Berlin, but not sure. I know a wagonload of engines was found around there, lots of facory-fresh, greased DB 605s in crates and stuff.

Be sure to get us some photos of the usual high quality if you ever manage to find something about that. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

From what I hear and seen from Krivosheev's figures, they look excellent and reliable piece of work. I can't say the same of Overmans figures, they are basically estimates and I don't trust them too much. They tend to exaggrevate the figures based on the R. Overman's random check of medical cards of Wehrmacht casulties, and based on some inaccuracies in the records who states that the Wehrmacht losses were much higher, than officially recorded. Some major historians, Zetterling included IIRC criticized Overmans heavily for this.
I don't quite buy his stuff.

WOLFMondo
07-27-2007, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
Too many!

S! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

FPSOLKOR
07-27-2007, 01:25 PM
To those interested in facts, rater than lyrics:

http://www.obd-memorial.ru/Memorial/Memorial.html

This is an official research in TsAMO in Russian only, it is constantly upgraded database. Have a look.
P.S. Forgot to mention - this site gives not a statistical figure, but "by-the name" mention of every soldier and officer LIA with a description when, where, for what reason.


Проект Министерства обороны *оссийской Федерации по созданию обобщённого электронного банка данных советских воинов, погибших и пропавших без вести в годы Великой Отечественной войны и в послевоенный период (ОБД Мемориал). *еализация этого проекта осуществляется силами специализированного Центра сканирования и ретроконверсии Корпорации *лектронный Архив при участии Фонда Союз поисковых отрядов. Координацию работ со стороны Минобороны осуществляет Тыл Вооруженных Сил *Ф в лице уполномоченного органа Военно-мемориального центра ВС *Ф.

Целью настоящего проекта является установление судеб защитников Отечества, погибших и пропавших без вести в годы Великой Отечественной войны и в послевоенный период.

Создание банка данных ведется путем сканирования, обработки и занесения в информационно-поисковую Интернет-систему имеющихся документальных данных из официальных источников.

Основными источниками информации для создания банка данных являются фонд дел Донесения боевых частей о безвозвратных потерях и картотека учета советских военнопленных ВАСт (сегодня имеет название Немецкая служба), хранящиеся в Центральном архиве МО *Ф, а также документы фонда Паспорта захоронений, хранящиеся в ВМЦ ВС *Ф.

Ввод информации из картотеки учета советских военнопленных проводится в рамках продолжающегося совместного немецко-российского проекта Советские военнопленные при поддержке правительств обеих стран. *то немецкие документы о советских военнопленных, обработка которых осуществляется под руководством объединения Саксонские мемориалы Центр документации (Германия) и финансируется правительством Германии.
Кроме того, на настоящий момент в ОБД введена информация из дополнительных источников:

1. *лектронная Книга Памяти Архангельской области, предоставленная *уководителем Архангельского государственного Социально-мемориального центра ПОИСК Ивлевым И.И.

2. Печатные Книги Памяти Калининградской и Калужской областей (19 томов).


Вашему вниманию предлагается проект систематизации учетных данных и документов о погибших воинах во Второй Мировой войне и последующих конфликтах.

Основная цель проекта дать возможность миллионам граждан установить судьбу или найти информацию о своих погибших или пропавших без вести родных и близких, определить место их захоронения. В рамках проекта будет отсканировано и предоставлено в Интернет-доступ около 10 миллионов листов архивных документов, проиндексировано более 30 миллионов записей о солдатах и офицерах. Впервые Вы сможете ознакомиться с реальными документами, самостоятельно провести поиск и исследование.

Основной массив документов это донесения о потерях, различные документы и справки о погибших и пропавших без вести, а также описания и списки захоронений советских солдат и офицеров.

*абота по проекту спланирована на 2006-2008 годы. В настоящее время отсканировано 42% документов, введено в базу данных 30% записей. В уже созданном массиве представлена информация и архивные документы:

о судьбе 4 505 тыс. человек из боевых донесений о потерях;
о судьбе 42 тыс. человек из документов госпиталей и медсанбатов;
о местах захоронения 85 тыс. персоналий;
учетные карточки на 298 тыс. военнопленных узников фашистских концентрационных лагерей;
более 450 тыс. записей из электронных и печатных книг памяти.
Последнее обновление осуществлено 29 июня 2007 г.

faustnik
07-27-2007, 01:41 PM
Some people look at numbers of dead like a game statistic, to say "this side did better". Truth is, people were willing to die for the sake of their country and their homes. In the case of the USSR, as many gave their lives as it took to repel the foreign invaders from their country. That's the important fact.

msalama
07-27-2007, 01:48 PM
That's the important fact.

Yeah, but the majority of them died because the invader never gave them any human worth. Which I think is even more important...

Shee-it, getting too close to politics so I'll quit. S!

faustnik
07-27-2007, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by msalama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">That's the important fact.

Yeah, but the majority of them died because the invader never gave them any human worth. Which I think is even more important...

Shee-it, getting too close to politics so I'll quit. S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, don't quit, I think you made an important point. These were people, not numbers. We shouldn't discuss the numbers without remembering the human loss.

msalama
07-27-2007, 03:05 PM
Cheers Faust, I'll dig this up later. Got a bit too deep w/ my replies like 2 times already & junked the lot too - which is what being the beery man of Friday does to you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif - but I'd still like to discuss the human side of it a bit later on...

S! Bedtime now though.

jurinko
07-27-2007, 05:14 PM
Stalin admitted 9mil, Khruschev 16mil, I learned about 20mil and Gorbatschow told at the end about 28mil total.

Losses of armed forces I read from 9 to 13,3mil.

This is a quote of Soviet nurse from battlefield.ru for illustration:

"The division was always on the offensive Donbass was being liberated! There was heavy fighting, with large losses. About 5 thousand soldiers died in the battle of Dusekoe village. The infantry... Few can stay alive if they fight in infantry ranks. The infantry... I painfully recollect as I had to rip away foot wrappings from frozen boots, all dried with blood."

"Behind the village there were two hills, and between them in a deep valley a narrow-gauge railway and a brick booth of a railroad serviceman. Our regiment entrenched on one of those hills. And all the space below was occupied with German tanks, some of which were dug into ground for direct fire.
A terrible battle started. Three days of this horrifying carnage yielded nothing. Just a lot of wounded and dead. (...)
After the battle I saw terrible pictures that still don't let me rest human limbs and intestines laying all around, and piles of breathless crippled bodies..."

SeaFireLIV
07-27-2007, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by msalama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">That's the important fact.

Yeah, but the majority of them died because the invader never gave them any human worth. Which I think is even more important...

Shee-it, getting too close to politics so I'll quit. S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wise understanding from both of you.

Waldo.Pepper
07-27-2007, 05:51 PM
I would think you could calculate a pretty good estimate of USSR deaths during the war if you have two accurate figures.

Pre war population.
Current population.

I think that maybe this is the way estimates like this were made in the first place.

I wonder if Stalin knew the prewar population well enough to be able to know how many may have been killed.

Or I am in Raaaidland?

Chris0382
07-27-2007, 08:17 PM
How could human life become so unimportant that death estimates could miss by more than a million

Oh the humanity.

msalama
07-28-2007, 03:07 AM
Yeah, well, the predominant feeling I get is pity for the common Russian. Think about it: you're from some backwoods dips**t place, and all you've ever known about the world in general is Party propaganda and the local kolkhoz matters. You've lived your life under an uncaring and ruthless system, one that has never given you any value outside of being a tiny cog in the great Socialistic machine.

And then it gets even worse. The Germans come, burn your house, confiscate your food, execute everyone they deem suspicious and leave the rest to starve - or to be worked to death as expendable and exploitable untermensch labourers.

So you decide to fight back. But how exactly, given the state of your armed forces during those early months? Your equipment is insufficient and / or outdated, you receive no military training to speak of, your superiors are mostly incompetent - and you're facing the Wehrmacht, the best army in the world at that time.

You then have two choices: you either sacrifice yourself, or you flee because of the fear in you and the hopelessness of it all. But who do you run to? There's no-one but the NKVD, and their parting present of 9 millimeters of lead behind the ear. And to cap it all up the last you heard from your village were rumours of the Germans sparing no-one - no children, no women, no elders left alive...

So yeah, my predominant feelings are pity and compassion towards those common Russian people, because the tragedy that became their lot is something we can never even begin to understand IMO.

Rood-Zwart
07-28-2007, 03:57 AM
Am I the only one who gets totally depressed when I read this? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Blood_Splat
07-28-2007, 04:56 AM
Look at poor Poland... man they were catching hell from both Germany and Russia.

Phil_K
07-28-2007, 05:06 AM
pffff.......it was at least 30.

Blutarski2004
07-28-2007, 06:29 AM
Originally posted by Rood-Zwart:
Am I the only one who gets totally depressed when I read this? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif


By no means. It is an overwhelming tragedy to contemplate.

SeaFireLIV
07-28-2007, 09:45 AM
Of course it`s depressing. No one would want to be a Russian common peasant or civilian in the early days of the attack on Russia. Many men and women died against the nazis and millions of them weren`t even soldiers! Even the ordinary soldier was wasted before the enemy like chaff on the wind! I`ve read accounts from German letters to how they laughed at the constant waste of Russian lives...

It was the RUSSIAN PEOPLE who fought and died for Russia`s survival. It was the russian people who bled so that Germany could itself be bled dry. Stalin did nothing and part of the reason the Russians won was because Stalin actually did something wise and stepped back from trying to control everything.



Whatever the Soviet/German war is depressing stuff, unimaginable for many and that`s why I think few understand it. While I have great respect for the other Allies, we mustn`t forget that attacks like D-Day pales in comparison. And the PEOPLE get so little recogniyion because of Stalin and the cold war.

Take saving private Ryan start scene and dress it up in Russian uniforms then times it by about 2000 and maybe you`ll get some idea of the wholesale slaughter on the Eastern front for the 1st horrendous TWO years of that war...

Interminate
07-28-2007, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by msalama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">That's the important fact.

Yeah, but the majority of them died because the invader never gave them any human worth. Which I think is even more important...

Shee-it, getting too close to politics so I'll quit. S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE> good idea because you are full of ;;;;

joeap
07-28-2007, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Interminate:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by msalama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">That's the important fact.

Yeah, but the majority of them died because the invader never gave them any human worth. Which I think is even more important...

Shee-it, getting too close to politics so I'll quit. S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE> good idea because you are full of ;;;; </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So are you.

FPSOLKOR
07-28-2007, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:

Although thanks for your opinion, you know nothing about GPW history (not discussing amount of people killed - exact numbers are still unknown)... No surprize... Try to find this book in english - I know that it was translated, it sure would lighten you up a bit on historical aspects...

http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/golovanov_ae/index.html

zugfuhrer
07-28-2007, 01:30 PM
I dont recall that I have ever seen so much prejudices on one place before.

The Soviet army didnt have insufficient equipment in general, look at the T-34, IS-2 tank, the 76.2 AT-gun, the 12cm mortar and the VVS fighter aircrafts all where excellent.

The general soviet soldier in general, where not a bad soldier.

The german forces estimated them a a tough and determinated.

One german unit Stug-IV in Finland which was tranferred from Finland to another front where glad that they knew that thy should go to Normandy because they rated the Italian and American units as the easiest enemy to fight.

It was a relief for them because the Narva-front was also actual.

The high losses of the Soviet infantery cant be explained as a result of only one reason. It is a very complex issue.

MB_Avro_UK
07-28-2007, 05:47 PM
Hi all,

What is disturbing to me is that Russia had the highest war dead of WW2 without a doubt but that it cannot be estimated even today.

Let's assume the minimum figure of 20 million.

How does that compare to German, British or US losses?

We discuss the Western Front and how the Spitfire and the Mustang performed against the LW. The real WW2 in my opinion involved Germany against Russia.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

BoCfuss
07-28-2007, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by zugfuhrer:
I dont recall that I have ever seen so much prejudices on one place before.

The Soviet army didnt have insufficient equipment in general, look at the T-34, IS-2 tank, the 76.2 AT-gun, the 12cm mortar and the VVS fighter aircrafts all where excellent.

The general soviet soldier in general, where not a bad soldier.

The german forces estimated them a a tough and determinated.

One german unit Stug-IV in Finland which was tranferred from Finland to another front where glad that they knew that thy should go to Normandy because they rated the Italian and American units as the easiest enemy to fight.

It was a relief for them because the Narva-front was also actual.

The high losses of the Soviet infantery cant be explained as a result of only one reason. It is a very complex issue.

As if one man fighting for his life is tougher then the other guy fighting for his life because of his nationality. Right, BS!

I'd also rather fight Americans, they were less likely to kill you after they captured you.



Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:

We discuss the Western Front and how the Spitfire and the Mustang performed against the LW. The real WW2 in my opinion involved Germany against Russia.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Tell my grandfathers that and they would knock you into next Tuesday. It was called WORLD War II for a reason. It's not just a fancy name. As if it's more real when 10's of millions die compared to just millions, or thousands, or 100s. Please explain to me what makes it more real? The biggest tragedy of WWII is that Hitler and Japan had enough momentum to start the damn thing in the first place.

Interminate
07-29-2007, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by joeap:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Interminate:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by msalama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">That's the important fact.

Yeah, but the majority of them died because the invader never gave them any human worth. Which I think is even more important...

Shee-it, getting too close to politics so I'll quit. S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE> good idea because you are full of ;;;; </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So are you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is only one truth, and you, and him, don't have it.

Interminate
07-29-2007, 09:54 PM
The german forces estimated them a a tough and determinated.

As if one man fighting for his life is tougher then the other guy fighting for his life because of his nationality. Right, BS!

I'd also rather fight Americans, they were less likely to kill you after they captured you.



Yes, the US and eisenhower would just starve Germans of all ages in shelterless camps after the war. Even threatening to shoot soldiers who might pass food over the fence.

msalama
07-30-2007, 12:17 AM
There is only one truth, and you, and him, don't have it.

Hey, by all means keep on having your own opinions about the matter, so that we from our part can just keep on ignoring them.

joeap
07-30-2007, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by BoCfuss:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:

We discuss the Western Front and how the Spitfire and the Mustang performed against the LW. The real WW2 in my opinion involved Germany against Russia.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Tell my grandfathers that and they would knock you into next Tuesday. It was called WORLD War II for a reason. It's not just a fancy name. As if it's more real when 10's of millions die compared to just millions, or thousands, or 100s. Please explain to me what makes it more real? The biggest tragedy of WWII is that Hitler and Japan had enough momentum to start the damn thing in the first place. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right, saying the Soviets deserve most of the credit for defeating the Heer (German Army) is one thing, saying that was the "real war" is absolutely incorrect. Even if they had the highest sacrifices, one certainly can't ignore those of China, Poland or Yugoslavia for example. In terms of how the Post-war world shaped up, the war in Asia and the Med were important as well. No, it was all "real."

TgD Thunderbolt56
07-31-2007, 07:34 AM
It's really ashame that many people died...from every participant country, but the common belief is that the Soviets used their soldiers as a disposable commodity, cannon fodder that would allow them to overwhelm the Germans with simple masses.

Now THAT is ashame.

Blutarski2004
07-31-2007, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by Interminate:
Yes, the US and eisenhower would just starve Germans of all ages in shelterless camps after the war. Even threatening to shoot soldiers who might pass food over the fence.



.....Another afficionado of the James Bacque school of breathless hyperbole?

ytareh
07-31-2007, 12:44 PM
Many are familiar with the 'statistic'(remember Stalins famous quote -The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic...)that 75% of all U-Boaters were killed in action .And Bomber Crew over Germany had severe loss rates also ...But I remember reading somewhere that of the males who would have been 18 or 19 when Germany invaded Russia /Soviet Union in 1941 that eighty something percent (it could even have been 88%!!!)did not survive the war.....


We must never forget!

avimimus
07-31-2007, 03:37 PM
It should also be pointed out that the experience in WWII (and to some extent the civil war) had a massive effect on devaluing human life in Russia.

Many more people died in factory accidents and the casualties of the war are still felt today.

There is a fairly strong argument that it was the horror of WWII that caused some of the emphasis on militarism during the cold war but also that the horror of WWII that caused many Soviet commanders and several leaders to deescalate during the flashpoints.

Where we would have, in our ignorance, allowed the world to pass through the point of no return, they held us back.

I always think of the war as the "Great partiotic war" or the "Great domestic war".

It is ironic that we owe much of our freedom to what were the Soviet people.

I recommend seeing "Ballad of a Soldier" -it reminds you why we shouldn't fight.

If anyone wants to set up a campaign/website to improve recognition in North America for those poor individuals who sacrificed themselves to buy time and eventually to defeat the Nazis invaders -let me know.

carguy_
07-31-2007, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by Interminate:
Yes, the US and eisenhower would just starve Germans of all ages in shelterless camps after the war. Even threatening to shoot soldiers who might pass food over the fence.

Aaaah just like in good ole Auschwitz,eh?

MB_Avro_UK
07-31-2007, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by carguy_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Interminate:
Yes, the US and eisenhower would just starve Germans of all ages in shelterless camps after the war. Even threatening to shoot soldiers who might pass food over the fence.

Aaaah just like in good ole Auschwitz,eh? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi,

I'm slightly confused http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif. Are you comparing the Rhineland PoW camps for German soldiers with Auschwitz ???

Maybe the millions who were murdered at Auschwitz would have prefered a Rhineland PoW camp????


Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Sillius_Sodus
07-31-2007, 05:11 PM
I remember watching a documentary on the Russian front back in the 70's. I think it was called "The Russo-German War". Anyway, at the beginning the narrator stated that an average of 30,000 people died every day during the war in Russia. That would put the number of dead in the 40 million + range. WWII statistics being what they are we'll probably never know the true figure. Let's just say it was lots and lots.

As for the quality of the Russian soldier, that's a tough one. From what I've read, at the strategic level, the Russian General staff was considered quite competent, as they proved once they were given more freedom of decision.

Like all nations, some Russian soldiers were excellent, some not so much. They had very high casualties, but they were fighting a, for the most part, well trained, well led and very determined enemy in the Germans. They might not have done so well at the beginning of the war but then neither did the allies in their first encounters.

Judging from the casualties the German armed forces were able to inflict against the Allies in Normandy despite their overwhelming firepower superiority, I shudder to think of what it must have been like to be a Russian infantry soldier or tank crewman in WWII.

Good hunting,
Sillius_Sodus

carguy_
07-31-2007, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
I'm slightly confused http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif. Are you comparing the Rhineland PoW camps for German soldiers with Auschwitz ???


The answer is no.

Rammjaeger
07-31-2007, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by ytareh:
Many are familiar with the 'statistic'(remember Stalins famous quote -The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic...)that 75% of all U-Boaters were killed in action .And Bomber Crew over Germany had severe loss rates also ...But I remember reading somewhere that of the males who would have been 18 or 19 when Germany invaded Russia /Soviet Union in 1941 that eighty something percent (it could even have been 88%!!!)did not survive the war.....


We must never forget!

There are contradictory claims. I've seen one state that 75% of all Soviet males born in 1923 died in the war (entirely believable, but how many died in the war and how many for other reasons, who knows). The final part of the documentary series "Stalin's war with Germany" claimed that 95% of all males aged 17-21 in 1941 perished in the war (seems too many to me). Some sources claim that the Red Army was on the verge of "bleeding to death" by 1945 (manpower reserves falling through the floor).

avimimus
07-31-2007, 05:26 PM
Speaking of where this is heading. During 1941 it was better to be in a Gulag being worked to death than captured by the Germans. On top of this the atrocities in the east (against slavs as well) are a very under recognized part of the holocaust.

When you realise that commanders who signed orders to starve Russian cities into depopulation and submission, to execute all officers, to protect German soldiers from prosecution for war crimes at the eastern front, were not just let out of jail early but actually involved in the rearmament, then you realise why eastern europeans didn't trust us at the beginning of the cold war.

avimimus
07-31-2007, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
Hi all,

What is disturbing to me is that Russia had the highest war dead of WW2 without a doubt but that it cannot be estimated even today.

Let's assume the minimum figure of 20 million.

How does that compare to German, British or US losses?

We discuss the Western Front and how the Spitfire and the Mustang performed against the LW. The real WW2 in my opinion involved Germany against Russia.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Lots of us died in the west and so did lots of resistance fighters and civilians. I agree, though that it is important to recoginise the tremendous sacrifice of our brothers in the east . We only focus on our own fighting men and that is disgusting.

Anyway, we can, at least, estimate the attrition rate for Russia's regular military units (not militias or partisans). It ran at around 50% according to one of the articles posted.

By the way, the former Yugoslavia was worse of than the Soviets even. Except for one week the fighting continued even when they were deeply surrounded in 1943-44. Ethnic conflict was also involved and encouraged.

German documents are very grim, they talk of entire areas "cleansed" listing the dead from reprisals in the tens of thousands for single districts alone.

The official policy was 100 civilians to be killed for every German soldier lost, 50 civilians to be killed for every German soldier wounded.

There are still accusations that the U.K. held up medical supplies to Tito (because he was a Red) and that the U.S. even supplied German allied units with weapons via. air drops near the end.

FPSOLKOR
07-31-2007, 06:34 PM
Some eyewitness accounts from iremember. ru, adding &lang=en to addres line will help those who prefer english version
Infantrymen

http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=46&Itemid=2

http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=45&Itemid=2

http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=2

http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=30&Itemid=2

http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=22&Itemid=2

http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20&Itemid=2

http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14&Itemid=2

http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13&Itemid=2

http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11&Itemid=2

http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10&Itemid=2

http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8&Itemid=2

http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6&Itemid=2

Tank crews

http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&ta...iew&id=384&Itemid=19 (http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=384&Itemid=19)

http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=89&Itemid=19

http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=86&Itemid=19

http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=85&Itemid=19

Artillery

http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&ta...iew&id=216&Itemid=21 (http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=216&Itemid=21)

http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&ta...iew&id=195&Itemid=21 (http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=195&Itemid=21)

http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&ta...iew&id=190&Itemid=21 (http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=190&Itemid=21)

http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&ta...iew&id=188&Itemid=21 (http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=188&Itemid=21)

http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&ta...iew&id=187&Itemid=21 (http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=187&Itemid=21)

http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&ta...iew&id=186&Itemid=21 (http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=186&Itemid=21)

http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&ta...iew&id=184&Itemid=21 (http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=184&Itemid=21)

http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&ta...iew&id=183&Itemid=21 (http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=183&Itemid=21)

medics

http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&ta...iew&id=287&Itemid=25 (http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=287&Itemid=25)

http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&ta...iew&id=284&Itemid=25 (http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=284&Itemid=25)

http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&ta...iew&id=278&Itemid=25 (http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=278&Itemid=25)

avimimus
08-01-2007, 10:08 AM
Thank you,

Interminate
08-20-2007, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by carguy_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Interminate:
Yes, the US and eisenhower would just starve Germans of all ages in shelterless camps after the war. Even threatening to shoot soldiers who might pass food over the fence.

Aaaah just like in good ole Auschwitz,eh? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have no idea what you are talking about, Germany allocated 1400 calories for people in camps. The US on the other hand kept it at 800 calories which is starvation level. Dirty little secret.

Interminate
08-20-2007, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by avimimus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
Hi all,

What is disturbing to me is that Russia had the highest war dead of WW2 without a doubt but that it cannot be estimated even today.

Let's assume the minimum figure of 20 million.

How does that compare to German, British or US losses?

We discuss the Western Front and how the Spitfire and the Mustang performed against the LW. The real WW2 in my opinion involved Germany against Russia.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Lots of us died in the west and so did lots of resistance fighters and civilians. I agree, though that it is important to recoginise the tremendous sacrifice of our brothers in the east . We only focus on our own fighting men and that is disgusting.

Anyway, we can, at least, estimate the attrition rate for Russia's regular military units (not militias or partisans). It ran at around 50% according to one of the articles posted.

By the way, the former Yugoslavia was worse of than the Soviets even. Except for one week the fighting continued even when they were deeply surrounded in 1943-44. Ethnic conflict was also involved and encouraged.

German documents are very grim, they talk of entire areas "cleansed" listing the dead from reprisals in the tens of thousands for single districts alone.

The official policy was 100 civilians to be killed for every German soldier lost, 50 civilians to be killed for every German soldier wounded.

There are still accusations that the U.K. held up medical supplies to Tito (because he was a Red) and that the U.S. even supplied German allied units with weapons via. air drops near the end. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm only concerned about the Germans ethnically cleansed in Poland, Czech, and Yugoslavia after the war. By the way, good they held supplies from that ethnic-cleansing monster tito.

Interminate
08-20-2007, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by carguy_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Interminate:
Yes, the US and eisenhower would just starve Germans of all ages in shelterless camps after the war. Even threatening to shoot soldiers who might pass food over the fence.

Aaaah just like in good ole Auschwitz,eh? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
yep.

SeaFireLIV
08-20-2007, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by Interminate:


I'm only concerned about the Germans ethnically cleansed in Poland, Czech, and Yugoslavia after the war. By the way, good they held supplies from that ethnic-cleansing monster tito.

I sense much pent-up anger in this one.

Calm down, m8, you`re going to burst a blood vessel.

FPSOLKOR
08-21-2007, 02:52 AM
Take a look at theese figures:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II#Casualties.2C...ct.2C_and_atrocities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II#Casualties.2C_civilian_impact.2C_and_ atrocities)

About too little lives lost: What did they have to do with Bolshevism or Judaism? They were ordinary Russians, like millions of other families...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanya_Savicheva

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Leningrad

http://enlight.ru/camera/174/index_e.html

joeap
08-21-2007, 02:58 AM
Interminate p##s off and die please or go play with your dollies.

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/5061/50398hitlerlw4.jpg

FPSOLKOR
08-21-2007, 03:29 AM
Originally posted by Interminate:
I'm only concerned about the Germans ethnically cleansed in Poland, Czech, and Yugoslavia after the war. By the way, good they held supplies from that ethnic-cleansing monster tito.

They reaped what they have sawn. And that is final. And by the way - Tito was not the only ethnic cleanser of the time... Hitler, Stalin, Roosevelt, Chuchill, is there a real need to continue? If you want to take a look at modern world, I can point out some countries in Europe with a more or less active ethnic cleansing on a political level going on, as well as countries officially supporting Fascism and Nacism. Is there a true need in this?

Blutarski2004
08-21-2007, 06:34 AM
Originally posted by Interminate:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Interminate:
Yes, the US and eisenhower would just starve Germans of all ages in shelterless camps after the war. Even threatening to shoot soldiers who might pass food over the fence.

Aaaah just like in good ole Auschwitz,eh? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
yep. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



..... Sorry, I'm not buying what you're trying to sell. Absolutely ZERO moral equivalency.

SeaFireLIV
08-21-2007, 06:51 AM
I hate threads like this. especially because you get one guy who starts trying to muddy the waters between what is right and wrong and who did what. The guy who tries to revise history so that things like Auschwitz don`t look so bad, meaning Hitler don`t look so bad and so making Churchill and Roosevelt look more bad, etc, etc.

Stop with that beguiling, twisting ****. the nazis and those who let them come to power at the time bought whatever retributipon came down on themselves. it`s no good starting a war with everyone, then crying when it all goes wrong and attempted genocide of a nation makes every other country not like you much.

Get with reality. You kick an innocent man down and beat him to near death for no reason, if he then survives, don`t be surprised if he comes back and batters you down, then your family, and your kids and your whole town!

That`s what starting a war and killing innocent people causes.

RUDIIIII
08-21-2007, 09:22 AM
@SeaFireLIV: But that's what makes it so difficult to look back at history. There has never ever been a "good" and a "bad". There are always two sites of a medal. So the "good" one could have had some bad characters and the "bad" one could have done some good things...Please don't misunderstand this, I'm not saying that it was good what was done in the name of Germany, and there's no doubt that at that time the german were "bad". But do you actually think that all germans were nazis? This is a really good question, especially for me, 'cause I am german. It's kinda bittersweet emotion when I'm thinkinh of this war. On the one hand I'm sad because some of my familymembers died and it hurts to hear that my own country was almost devasted. But on the other hand I'm lucky that Germany has lost the war because the germans did a lot of so horribly things that it's to believe them (6 million jews killed, 1/3 of the whole polish population killed, these weird experiments in the concentration camps, the concentration camps itselves, ~25 mio killed russian, most of them civilians etc. )
So talking about the Germany of that time is not as easy as you might think.

SeaFireLIV
08-21-2007, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by RUDIIIII:
@SeaFireLIV: But that's what makes it so difficult to look back at history. There has never ever been a "good" and a "bad". There are always two sites of a medal. So the "good" one could have had some bad characters and the "bad" one could have done some good things...Please don't misunderstand this, I'm not saying that it was good what was done in the name of Germany, and there's no doubt that at that time the german were "bad". But do you actually think that all germans were nazis? This is a really good question, especially for me, 'cause I am german. It's kinda bittersweet emotion when I'm thinkinh of this war. On the one hand I'm sad because some of my familymembers died and it hurts to hear that my own country was almost devasted. But on the other hand I'm lucky that Germany has lost the war because the germans did a lot of so horribly things that it's to believe them (6 million jews killed, 1/3 of the whole polish population killed, these weird experiments in the concentration camps, the concentration camps itselves, ~25 mio killed russian, most of them civilians etc. )
So talking about the Germany of that time is not as easy as you might think.

Of course not all Germans are bad. Just as with every nation.

When I and my family went to Berlin 10 years ago, I had all sorts of views on what I`d expect to happen. On one occasion I met a german lorry driver in the lounge and we had a good chat, he was surprisingly friendly and decent. I even have an amazingly good and honourable German friend who flies with us regualrly in our squad.

I`m just talking about some who want to give us the appearance that what the nazis did was a good thing when it wasn`t. No one is perfect, NO ONE, even churchill and roosevelt had some questionable views on certain aspects, but they would not kill everyone not following their view because of it as the nazis would have.

And when I say Nazis I mean, nazis, not Germans. Although the Germans in the time of the 3rd reich did not exactly help towards preventing the nazis from getting where they got. A few resisted whether passively or actively, but the great many just went along with it all... I sometimes wonder what the case would be had Hitler`s warring success had ultimately won WWII.

FPSOLKOR
08-21-2007, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by RUDIIIII:
these weird experiments in the concentration camps...
So talking about the Germany of that time is not as easy as you might think.

Trying to put aside all of the attrocities of the concentration camps I, as a medic, have to admitt, that thanks to these experiments neurology, physiology and other medical sciences made a mjor leap forward. But did it worth so many wasted lives? No!

RUDIIIII
08-21-2007, 03:44 PM
@SeaFireLIV: Well then I have to say I'm sorry but I proberbly misunderstood your post. So I just can agree you!
Unfortunately I must say that I've made the experience that a lot of americans really like the nazi stuff and agrees them. This is to me more than just unbelievable! How dare you!?

I'm a really tolerant person but there's also a limit of tolerance. This limit begins where the good taste ends. The nazis weren't a political party like evreyone else but nothing but criminals. And not more. They murdered their enemies (and own members), they stole, they lied ect. Anybody who supports their ideas has in my eyes completely lost his mind.
And your last question...I think this world would just be horrible...You have only two options, to be a good nazi or to die...to me, they are both inacceptable. This would be a worldwide, absolutely empty empire with only one opinion and one aim, the war. But war against what? I dunno...they had always war, first, against socialdemocratsn, commies, liberals....If they couldn't beat their enemies' argumentation, they just beat him off! Later it's been on the jews, and finally the polands, russians, brits, americans...

Viking-S
08-21-2007, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
Hi all,

This sim was created with regard to the East Front. And thanks to Oleg for drawing not only my attention to this battle-front and also many more guys from the west http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I have read different accounts as to how many Russians were killed in WW2. All figures are huge.

Is there an official estimate?

What is sure is that the East Front battles were massive in comparison to all other fronts in WW2.

90% of all German troops killed in WW2 wre killed fighting the Russians.

Whilst we argue about rates of turn and climb between various aircraft...it is worth bearing this in mind.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.


http://english.pobediteli.ru/

Press"Start presentation" and in the end you will have a figure. Right or wrong I don't know

SeaFireLIV
08-21-2007, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by RUDIIIII:
@SeaFireLIV: Well then I have to say I'm sorry but I proberbly misunderstood your post. So I just can agree you!
Unfortunately I must say that I've made the experience that a lot of americans really like the nazi stuff and agrees them. This is to me more than just unbelievable! How dare you!?

...

These guys are mostly misguided youths looking for an outlet. Many don`t really understand what they`re doing.

faustnik
08-21-2007, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by RUDIIIII:

Unfortunately I must say that I've made the experience that a lot of americans really like the nazi stuff and agrees them.

Why are you singling out Americans? Neo-Nazi nutjobs are common in a lot of other places.

I hope I'm misreading your intent???

SeaFireLIV
08-21-2007, 06:20 PM
I doubt he`s just singling out Americans. Or he`s only referring to his own experience. yes, we have such fascist types in England and Europe too.

Please stop the American `Europe-hates us` reaction, faustnik. You`re making Americans appear far too oversensitive. Are we always going to have to say something like, `We don`t mean all Americans, or not even americans in general, or sorry I forgot to say the rest of the human race too, not just americans` in every post we make?



It`s almost like a weird kind of political correctness. You must allow for mistakes and not always instantly fire off the hip.


And you`re also leading us away from the main point of the discussion. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Daiichidoku
08-21-2007, 06:31 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/Daiichidoku/yawn-1.jpg

RUDIIIII
08-23-2007, 03:45 PM
Firstly, I don't have a clue what Daiichidoku is trying to tell us...

faustnik, your are absolutely mis reading my post. I quite well that there are neo-nazis all over the world. What I wanted to say is that I could "understand" if someone becomes a nazis if that someone was from the former axis countries. But if someone from the former allied countries supports this sh**t is to nothing but disgusting. Might sound a bit oldfashioned, but for what did your grandfathers die if these guys support their enemies' ideas?
I figured americans out as an example this was it. Why are you turned off because of this? It's nothing but a fact, a fact like a lot of my ancesters comitted horrible warcrimes. It's not nice, but you got to learn to accept this. Every nation has something to be proud of, but also something to be ashamed of. But it is important to talk also about the bad things. Like me about WWII!
Moreover, I said that this was my own experience. And that's what it was...It's really unbelievable, but in every english-speaking online-forum I was were so many of these weirdos who were talking about nazi helmets. With great pleasure! When I take a look at the german weirdos...they are talking about the size of the flashlight of machinegun...weird, I know, but at lest I have very rarely seen a pro-nazi post. But, after all, this is only MY EXPERIENCE.

MEGILE
08-23-2007, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:


And you`re also leading us away from the main point of the discussion. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Perhaps it is just me, but I seem to have missed any reference to the prevalence of Neo-Nazism in America, in the thread title.

faustnik
08-23-2007, 03:53 PM
Thanks for clarifying that Rudi. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif