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chris455
10-01-2007, 06:31 PM
Is this winnable for the Wurger? I try to gain any kind of nose position with my human (not AI) oponent, it always ends the same. Skill -wise, I am slightly the better, but the only assets I have compared to the Yak are roll rate and speed. In a 1v1 , it seems hopeless. Should I retire the Fw190 and swith to another mount?
Are there tips from some of the truly "online experienced" types here that might swing the balance in my favor?
We typically engage at low altitude, approaching each other in opposite directions until we reach the merge, then, "fight's on".
Do I stand a chance in this matchup?
Thanks in advance for any (serious?) replies!
S!

DKoor
10-01-2007, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by chris455:
Is this winnable for the Wurger? Only if A4 player is more skilled than Yak-9 player.
Otherwise....I see that as an one way battle.

Few of my online buddies and me tried this specific setup and Yak-9 owns A4. Sure thing, if you start fight in 190 with excessive altitude advantage things may end up differently but in some kind of fight on equal odds Yak has main advantages.

To picture it better, I flew Yak in one sortie and my buddy was in 190.....he managed to land few hits on my ac and too away my rudder control.
I still beat him in his undamaged A4 after a while.
Setup was - only limited icons, otherwise everything on.

That's how good Yak is in such battle.

DKoor
10-01-2007, 06:51 PM
But it would be interesting to see multiple 190s vs Yaks.
That would be more even battle because 190 is great team plane.

JG51_Rudel
10-01-2007, 06:53 PM
Get above 5000m and make the Yak starve for Air while you boom and zoom him/

VMF-214_HaVoK
10-01-2007, 07:06 PM
Depends on the pilot. I and many others have no problem handling Yaks and Spits in the A4. Its a waiting game and patience is key for the 190 pilot.

S!

chris455
10-01-2007, 07:22 PM
Great answers, hope they keep coming.
Havoc, can you fill in more detail?

VMF-214_HaVoK
10-01-2007, 07:39 PM
I assume you fly the P-47 a lot correct? Ask yourself how you would fly it vs a Yak and simply apply it to the FW. Of course with the FW will have more room for error then in the JUG at lower alt thanks to its roll rate and overall better maneuverability. Also you have a much better chance of killing your enemy with one single pass.

I usually end up in planes then will not win the turn fight and I fly PTO a lot so I always try to give myself 8500 feet between me and the deck which is all most always enough room to escape and extend. I always try to keep the fight above 230mph and at high speed you can turn with about any of the T&B planes till 90 degrees. The 190 is also one of the best planes in the game when it comes to the horizontal scissors, again thanks to its superior roll rate. The 109 is also very good at this but that is more because of its ability to slow down ever so quickly and accelerate quickly. FW-190 has insane firepower so in the scissor fight you only need one good timed deflection shot and the fight is over.

S!

VMF-214_HaVoK
10-01-2007, 08:54 PM
I should add that these tactics wont do you much good in a arcade server. If you want the most out of the FW or P-47 for that matter you should fly with pit on and limited icons at the minimum. Externals off as well is optimum but one can fare pretty well with them on.

S!

VW-IceFire
10-01-2007, 09:49 PM
Fly head on and kill him in the first pass if its a co-alt engagement. Other than that try and use a high speed dive followed by zoom climb and use your roll rate to try and gain an angle on him. No matter what you do whenever you have a shot take it.

If the fight is not co-alt then its simple...always have more energy and stay in the vertical. You can outmanuever him in nearly every way in a situation like this. Online when flying Yak-9 versus FW190 I'm always feeling as the underdog in the Yak-9...sure I can out turn in a sustained fight but I cannot out run so I have to fight my way out and with limited ammo and firepower every shot has to count.

Xiolablu3
10-02-2007, 05:18 AM
Simply dont dogfight, then he cannot use his better turn against you.

Arrive above the Yak 9 , with an advatange, then B&Z, or refuse the fight and save yourself for another day, as a real pilot would do.

Try and keep things as fast as possible, zoom around at high speed being careful not to burn off your speed. ZOoming down, taking a shot and zooming back up. If you feel you are losing the initiative then dive and run, he will break up if he tries to follow you down fast, as do all Russian 1942-43 birds.
Just think 'survival' over 'getting the kill' and you shouldnt have to many problems with FW190A vs Yak9.

Although I would think FW190A5 would be a better matchup and contemporary, as it represents a FW190A4 'fighter version' much better than the ingame FW190A4.

Oleg himself has said that if you want the real Western Front 'fighter version' of the FW190A, then use the next version up.

As in for the FW190A3 fighter, use the FW190A4, for the Fw190A4 fighter use the FW190A5, etc etc.

The fighters ingame represent the more common Jabo versions which were used on the East front. The Western front and dedicated fighter versions of the Fw190A were slightly higher rated in engine power.

Brain32
10-02-2007, 07:45 AM
We typically engage at low altitude, approaching each other in opposite directions until we reach the merge, then, "fight's on".
In this type of engagement typically - NO. The Yak9 is(and was) simply a better close-in dogfighter, vasty superiour in sustained climb rate and even more so turn rate. You can try to get it in a low speed scissoring fight as Yak is more unstable at lower speeds and not so good in rolling department, but genereally against a Yak9 pilot that knows his stuff you should be toasted. Ofcourse if by any chance you get to attain(significant) altitude advantage over him then the story changes. Oh and remember if you are P47 flier, forget tracking shots(you can't see through the gunsight for that anyway) and go for snap shots, with 4x20mm cannons a good snap shot will, atleast in more cases than not - be sufficient.

Bremspropeller
10-02-2007, 07:59 AM
"Yak-9" is quite a wide range of performance.

First, tell us which -9 you're talking about.

Is it a B, a D, a K, a T? => Winnable.

Or is it a U or UT? => U're fecked.

JG53Frankyboy
10-02-2007, 08:06 AM
most propably he looked at the given Dates. so the game is given 1942 for the Fw190A-4 and the Yak-9 (without anything http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )..................

chris455
10-02-2007, 11:01 PM
Great feedback, gents.
I 'll give it another go, and see how well I can apply some of the aforementioned tactics-

Ratsack
10-02-2007, 11:16 PM
chris455,

I posted the following in another discussion about fighting in the Fw 190 A. The context was about Spitfires, but the principles still hold with a Yak-9. The situation is a head on merge:




Now, try this at the start. When you see them as dots, turn off to one side, preferably your right and place them at your 10-11 o'clock. As they get closer to you, they'll be closing towards your 9 o'clock. While they're still well out of gun range, enter a shallow dive, roll left and start a gentle turn towards them, so you keep them between your high 10 and 9 o'clock.

It is critical with this turn is to have just enough vertical component in it to throw off their aim. You must either dive or climb a little: make sure you're out of their plane of motion or they'll shoot you down in the first pass!

If all goes well, the bandits will cross your tail in a dive, heading away from you at your 5 o'clock. You are climbing.

Now we can talk about the reverse. We have to rewind the clock a little here, because you should have started the reverse before the second bandit crossed behind you. It is all about timing. You can start this reverse two ways: reverse your bank from left to right (i.e., roll 180 degrees right) and pull back on the stick; or keep rolling left until they're on your 12/6 line (i.e., roll 180 degrees left), and pull back on the stick.

Remember, during that initial merge, they went past slightly nose-down. Your turn towards them took you past them slightly nose-up. This means their turn was tighter and your turn was wider. In this reverse, the shoe is on the other foot: gravity is making your turn tighter and theirs wider. Secondly, because you started your reverse slightly earlier than them, you've got a head start into the turn. Thirdly, because your rate of roll allowed you complete your reverse faster than them, your head start is increased.

As you complete your reversing roll, place the bandits along your 12/6 line and pull towards them. Because you are now higher than them, you will be slightly inverted (i.e., your wings will be past vertical), and your turn toward them will pull you into a dive. They will be pulling toward you, climbing up. You must make a judgment early in this manoeuvre. You must judge whether your turn is going to give you the shot, or whether theirs will give them the shot. What you do next depends on that judgment.

More later.





Back to topic in hand, which is how to fight effectively with the Fw 190 that we have in this game. Raven gave some excellent general advice earlier, and those who follow it will minimize the likelihood that they'll end up co-energy with a Spitfire IX and forced to fight. However, the question arises, if you've made all the usual mistakes and you've ended up co-E with some pesky Spit IX, what do you do now? Some around here argue that you should reach for Raven's egg timer, but I don't think it's quite that hopeless. Following is a description of one set of moves that in my experience helps.

Picture the enemy aircraft (EA), a Spitfire, flying along with his wings level. Imagine an arrow pointing out of the front of the EA in the direction in which it's flying. This arrow is the velocity vector. Under normal circumstances, the velocity vector is within a few degrees of where the aircraft appears to be pointing.

Now, imagine an arrow at right angles to the velocity vector, pointing up. This is the direction that the nose of the EA would move if the pilot pulled back on the stick (ignoring yaw effects due to torque or slipstream). I'll call this the pitch vector. Together, the pitch and velocity vectors define a plane that I'll call the plane of motion. It extends out of the EA from his 12 o'clock all the way around to his 6 o'clock. It moves with him, too. If he banks, his plane of motion banks with him.

The importance of the plane of motion is that, at this instant in time, it contains all the flight paths that the EA can fly by using his elevators: that is to say, it contains all of the flight paths that the EA can achieve by turning. It also contains all of his possible gun solutions. What this means is that if the EA is to hit you with his guns, he must get your velocity vector to intersect his plane of motion. Put another way, if you stay out of his plane of motion, he cannot hit you. The defensive air combat manoeuvres (ACM) that I'm about to describe rely on this fact.

If two aircraft engage in a turning contest in the same plane of motion, the aircraft with the better turning performance will win. The relevance of this for the Fw 190 A driver is that practically all of your opponents in IL-2 can out turn you, so for practical purposes it is a chiselled-in-stone given that you will lose this kind of turning contest. This is a bad thing, and one that is often whined about on these boards.

However, the performance parameter in which the Fw 190 absolutely slaughters its opponents is rate-of-roll. What this means is that the Fw 190 can change the orientation of its plane of motion faster than its opponents. This is a good thing.

To summarize so far, we have the concept of a plane of motion, which extends out from an aircraft from 12 to 6 o'clock and contains all turning flight paths and all gun solutions. We have as a generalisation the notion that the Fw 190 is not going to win a turning contest in a given plane of motion. We also have the generalisation that the Fw 190 can change the direction of its plane of motion faster than its opponents.


Now, imagine the merge that I described in a previous post, where you (in the Fw 190 A) are pulling into a fast, diving, right-hand turn against a Spitfire IX who is coming up at you in a climbing left-hand turn. You have got him on your 12/6 line, and he has you on his 12/6 line: you are in the same plane of motion and are turning towards each other. I said that you must make an early judgement during this manoeuvre. You must judge whether he is going to get the shot or whether you are. From the general principle that I stated above that the Fw 190 is not going to win a turning contest in the same plane of motion it is pretty easy to see that, all other things being equal, he is the one who will get the shot. This means you must defend in the immediate short term (i.e., avoid getting shot).

The way to do this is not to pull back harder on the stick. To do that is to attempt to turn tighter within the current plane of motion, and the other guy is better at that than you. It's a losing move, so don't do it.

Going back to the principles above, if you get out of his plane of motion, he can't shoot you. In the merge described above, you are IN his plane of motion, and in a losing position. What you must therefore do is GET OUT of his plane of motion. The way to do this is relatively simple, and has three steps.

First, unload your elevators. That is to say, stop turning towards him because all that does is hasten your death. No need to hurry forward to meet these things.

Second, having unloaded your elevators, roll. Hard. Use every degree-per-second that you can squeeze out of the Fw 190. You roll until your new plane of motion is at right angles to his (I'll come back to this in a second: don't worry).

Third, apply some elevator to pull your velocity vector out of his plane of motion, and out of harm's way.

Simple, right? To make it clearer, I'll go through these steps in the context of the losing merge above.

First, we unload the elevators. The bandit is still coming at you on your 12/6 line, but you're no longer turning toward him. You were in a diving turn, so your wings were past the vertical, so your plane of motion is below the horizon. You want to roll it through 90 degrees. The fastest way to get there is to roll right. This will bring the bandit down from your 12/6 line and place him somewhere near 10 or 11 o'clock in the same plane as your wings when you finish your roll.

You are now in an inverted dive, and the bandit is coming at you from the side, at around 9 o'clock. Pull back on the stick a little and ease your flight path out of his line of fire. He will probably take the shot, but he won't hit. The gunfire goes underneath the belly of your Focke-Wulf. He has had his shot and, because you are no longer in his plane of motion, he can't just pull back on the stick to get you back into his sights. He can flail around with the rudder to try and pick you up in a sideslipping shot, but if you've made your move early enough you're safe even from this. The only way he can get back onto you is to roll, and you're better at that than he is.

You can now continue your fast, right hand roll through another 90 degrees. As you finish your roll, apply elevators to pitch up. You are now in a diving left-hand turn, and the underside of the bandit should be visible above you at your high 3 or 4 o'clock, pulling away from you toward your left-hand side. You are no longer in the same plane of motion.

More later.

cheers,
Ratsack


The rest of the thread is here:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/2141061185/p/8

The advice Raven gave was excellent, and is well worth the read.

cheers,
Ratsack

Lt_Letum
10-03-2007, 01:42 AM
You can decide when you attack in the 190 because of the speed.

Never attack if you have less altitude, just run away, get more alt and pick a better fight.

If you don't try to turn and you pick only fights where you have the advantage you will never get shot down by slower planes. (Unless you are jumped).

If you are forced to attack with less altitude have a clear drag n' bad routine with your wing man worked out.

DKoor
10-03-2007, 04:14 AM
Anyone has a track?

Ratsack
10-04-2007, 09:35 PM
a
Originally posted by DKoor:
Anyone has a track?

I had some tracks of me demonstrating this against ace AI. The set up was me in a Fw 190 A-8, standard loadout at 2,000 m, versus two Spitfire IXEs. The Spits were flown by ace AI, and were in separate flights of one aircraft each. This last parameter means that they fight independently, and both try to kill you all the time. The effect is that they behave a lot more like human pilots. This is in contrast to their normal behaviour in a flight of two, where the leader tries to attack, and the wingman just follows like Mary's little lamb.

I sent the tracks to a couple of people on this forum. When I get my computer out of storage and set up, I'll post them to you.

In my experience, the technique I've described and the manoeuvres demonstrated in the track files all work against human opponents, which was the context of both discussions. I'll provide a track against a human opponent when I next get on line. That may take me a month or more, since I've just moved again and all my stuff is crated up.

cheers,
Ratsack

chris455
10-08-2007, 12:45 PM
Ratsack, I would love to see your tracks,please post them when you are up and running.

chris455
10-08-2007, 04:15 PM
Bump; actually I would like to see a track from anyone using some of the tactics described above. It so much easier to "get it right" once you've seen it done.

MLudner
10-08-2007, 04:19 PM
DO NOT TURN!! 190: TURN = DEATH

DO NOT TURN.

That's the rule. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

The 190 is faster than any Yak, but any Yak will out-turn it. When I am flying Yaks I just love it when a 190 turns after passing.

Use your speed to stay above the Yak then keep diving on him in a series of loops. If he tries to follow you up he'll set himself up for you, if he doesn't he's pretty much just a target. His only answer is to keep trying to turn into you as you dive. Just keep avoiding turning by keeping your speed up and come down when the opportunity presents itself.

MrMojok
10-08-2007, 04:28 PM
I've got Ratsack's tracks. Hang on a second.

Edit: Ratsack, is it OK if I provide a link to them?

chris455
10-08-2007, 10:42 PM
That would rock Mrmojok,
Thanks

MrMojok
10-09-2007, 12:56 AM
OK, here they are.

Ratsack I'll take these down if you disapprove.

Ratsack2 (http://www.esnips.com/doc/ed31cdb4-5236-4a63-885d-dc14980801cd/190a_Ratsack2)

Ratsack1 (http://www.esnips.com/doc/fc119ed5-095a-409e-9d74-3bfb70648a9c/190a_Ratsack1)

Ratsack
10-09-2007, 01:23 AM
Originally posted by MrMojok:
I've got Ratsack's tracks. Hang on a second.

Edit: Ratsack, is it OK if I provide a link to them?

No wukken furries. All may critique my cr@ppy flying.

cheers,
Ratsack

MrMojok
10-09-2007, 01:48 AM
It's hardly crappy, dude http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Xiolablu3
10-09-2007, 06:46 AM
I should add that Ratsacks tracks are only for an emergency.

Its best never to get into that situation in the first place by using your cunning, fast speed, Allies/wingmen, dive speed and height.

Ratsack will be the first to tell you that, if you are a good FW190 pilot, its best never to get into a situation with 2 Spitfires on your tail and no height to enable you to dive and extend.

However sometimes its unavoidable.

Flying the Fw190 to its strengths is almost like a game of chess with your opponent. Whereas turn and burners are better for 'reaction' flying. Dont fight the other guys fight, fight to the Fw190's strengths.

Thats means :-

Extremely high break up speed (850kph) (great for B&Z)
Fast Speed (Great for B&Z)
Fast Dive (Great for escape, if ever the fight turns against you simply dive hard and run for home/Allies)
Keeps energy amazingly well in straight lines and shallow turns (great for B&Z)
Great roll rate (Great for scissors)

The main thing you should avoid is :-

Its bad turn rate. (Bad for classic turn and burn, close-in dogfighting which planes like the Spitfire,Yaks,i16,Zero and early Bf109's excell at.

DKoor
10-09-2007, 07:14 AM
I'm just sorry I haven't recorded our session 190 vs Yak-9.
What an ownage.

M_Gunz
10-09-2007, 07:45 AM
If you want to change direction fast in a FW then get vertical and roll onto that direction.
You need speed, if you don't have it then dive and roll. Even barrel roll which gives you
vertical quite often, the roll rate of the FW lets you be better than any other in barrel
though the Jug can compete.

A wingover will let you keep speed (over the top at over 210mph/320kph always) while changing
180 and on the down leg you have ability to change 360 degrees very quickly. Compare to 20+
seconds to make a flat 360 in a turnfighter that does not put the turnfighter over the other.
How long to make a loop when you have speed?

Ratsack
10-09-2007, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
... its best never to get into a situation with 2 Spitfires on your tail and no height ...


Absolutely. And Raven's post in the other thread gives lots of excellent advice on avoiding this sitation.


Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
However sometimes its unavoidable.


Yes, although in my experience it usually happened because I made a mistake of judgement.


Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Whereas turn and burners are better for 'reaction' flying....


I don't entirely agree with the implication here, that the Fw 190 is not good for 'reaction' fighting. In my view it is. The problem is that you have to train your reactions so that you pull across the baddie's plane of motion, rather than through it. This is counter intuitive and it feels like a defensive move.

The instinct, on the other hand, is to pull towards the enemy, and this will just get you killed. That's the reaction you have to train out of your Fw 190 A repertoire.

cheers,
Ratsack