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Achilles97
10-07-2009, 03:12 PM
My friends and I are flying dogfight battles on a 4.09b server. My friend was flying the FW190 and I185 but he wasn't satisfied. He wants a more stable plane with friendly handling characteristics.

What do you think of the Hellcat? My impression is that it's rugged, good firepower, very stable, and is really difficult to stall. Surprisingly good maneuverability too.

Thanks!

The_Stealth_Owl
10-07-2009, 03:14 PM
Out classed by Bi-planes turning wise and late-ware planes.


Cool plane though. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

general_kalle
10-07-2009, 03:22 PM
worst US plane IMO

beNdeR__
10-07-2009, 03:47 PM
Check out the P-47 as well. With planes like the P-47, FW-190, Corsair, Hellcat etc, you definitely want to fly to their strengths, which means avoiding turn fights, and going for hit and run attacks

Ba5tard5word
10-07-2009, 03:52 PM
He's maybe looking for the Bf-109, it's a lot more maneuverable in turning than the 190, faster than a Hellcat (for the F and later versions anyway) and doesn't flip over like the 190 when you pull back on the stick hard. The 190 is amazing if you are used to it though.

The Hellcat is ok but has a low top speed and just feels underpowered, kinda like the Wildcat. I prefer the Seafire L for carrier stuff, Spits in general are great at keeping their speed up in maneuvers. The Corsair is ok but flips over a lot and flies like a barn.

Romanator21
10-07-2009, 03:54 PM
Hellcat is good. Watch out for overheating, and don't fly it like a La fighter.

horseback
10-07-2009, 03:56 PM
In-game version underperforms in speed and climb, is over sensitive to trim, and the performance & handling improvements that came with the F6F-5 model are not portrayed at all (outside of the rear quarter panel windows being gone).

Your friend would be better off with an early war P-40E/M most of the time, or a Corsair if he is more patient.

cheers

horseback

DKoor
10-07-2009, 03:59 PM
Hellcat is always my choice in Navy Ops in PTO on USN side.
Fighter all around is ok, just lacks some speed.
It is ok vs Ki-43's and A6M's doing more than a good job, good vs N1K but it's much more even, but vs Ki-84, J2M it is dead in a water since they do everything better than F6F. Those are to be engaged only from superior tactical position.

But I think your friend needs to check out Spitfire series, I find Spitfire Mk.VIII to be awesome fighter. Also Tempest if he likes BnZing people around. Those fighters are equipped with Hispano cannons which is hardest hitting 20mm cannon in game.

The_Stealth_Owl
10-07-2009, 04:25 PM
Turn him into a bi-plnae guy!


Us guys love our bi-planes, and will fight La-7s for them. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif


I'f your good, you can turn with all late-war planes, and you can even keep up with them!

Shot down a Do-335 and a P-51 online flying a I-153.


Love Bi-planes.

Introduce him to a beginers CR-42.

TinyTim
10-07-2009, 05:03 PM
Hmmm, stable you say? In my experience, F6F is more on the unstable (read: wobbly) side.

Ba5tard5word
10-07-2009, 05:23 PM
It's way more stable than the P-40 or Corsair in terms of wobbliness.

VW-IceFire
10-07-2009, 05:29 PM
The 109 might be the right choice for your friend. Stable handling characteristics, excellent performance in most respects and usable from start to finish of the war. You can find a 109 in almost any scenario.

They do handle differently so getting to know the 109 takes some time running through the various types and your fighting style has to change.

WTE_Galway
10-07-2009, 05:42 PM
lol ... I have searched my aircraft specs books and can't find any stats for this "wobbliness" characteristic ...


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

DKoor
10-07-2009, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
It's way more stable than the P-40 or Corsair in terms of wobbliness. Corsair is nightmare regarding this but P-40 (was) is ok... granted I haven't flown P-40 in new patch http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif.

Wildnoob
10-07-2009, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
He's maybe looking for the Bf-109, it's a lot more maneuverable in turning than the 190, faster than a Hellcat (for the F and later versions anyway) and doesn't flip over like the 190 when you pull back on the stick hard. The 190 is amazing if you are used to it though.

The Hellcat is ok but has a low top speed and just feels underpowered, kinda like the Wildcat. I prefer the Seafire L for carrier stuff, Spits in general are great at keeping their speed up in maneuvers. The Corsair is ok but flips over a lot and flies like a barn.

I don't think the flip over is a actual problem.

The only concern is not exceed the aircraft angle of attack.

If someone is interested a technical explanation about it can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angle_of_attack

But in other words, each plane have a limit, and this limit should be respected always. And all planes give some warning, something if they say like: "hey buddy, take easy with me", in form of the stick, in case of you have a FFB model, more incommon among the pilot's, and structural, by shaking of the structure.

When they start to happen, you are approaching to the critical angle of attack, and should stop being hard, because any rough stick movements gonna result in stall.

They usually happen because pilot's simple push the stick too hard. It's necessary to be more gently with it, which doens't mean you need to be slow, just respect it's limits.

Instead of that hard move, do a faster one but gradative. And more slower you are, more gradative the movemment should be. With practic this should keep you out of most stalls.

Also, don't forget to deploy combat flaps when turning in combat, they help a lot.

Here there's an example of mine:

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/6548/negativo.jpg

Already manage to get much slower negative speeds. And like the real P-51 in the case, generally there's no really a stall, just a wing drop even after reaching the critical angle of attack without being hard with the controls. At this momment the pressure on the stick was just minimum follow up the aircraft in maintein it's nose pointed up.

Of course there are planes with poor speed handling like the FW-190 and Corsair, but if the pilot have some discipline, at least in game I can say for my own experience, he will rarely enter in stalls.

Make trials starting with altitude, to know the limits and how to apply the stick gradatively. Is just necessary to know and respect the plane for keep you out of trouble.

TinyTim
10-07-2009, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
It's way more stable than the P-40 or Corsair in terms of wobbliness.

While I agree with you on Corsair, which seems to be a wobbling nightmare, P-40 seems very stable to me if you keep the ball centered. Outturns 109s with ease, but centered ball is an absolute must or she'll wobble and spin.

R_Target
10-07-2009, 06:34 PM
Performance is drastically undermodeled in IL2. Way too slow.

mortoma
10-07-2009, 06:42 PM
I think the Hellcat is too wobbly, not a good gun platform. In real life it was probably way better than the sim. Probably didn't overheat so badly either.

Ba5tard5word
10-07-2009, 06:46 PM
I don't think the flip over is a actual problem.

The only concern is not exceed the angle of attack of the aircraft.

I know how to avoid it and why it happens, but the Corsair is really vulnerable to speed stall flips, kinda like the I-16. Just needs practice and it's easy to avoid but it can come up in an intense battle and is bad when you are really close to the ground.



And yeah the P-40 isn't as bad as the Corsair but it still wobbles a bit compared to the 109. I get used to it after a few missions with it though. I never flew the Hellcat much in comparison though but when I did I don't remember having a wobbling issue.

Wildnoob
10-07-2009, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
I know how to avoid it and why it happens

Ah, ok, I know buddy.

I just post all that stuff for the people who may not know try get some information on why this happens.

Blindman-
10-07-2009, 07:25 PM
I find the P-40 about as stable as it gets with the American planes. It's so easy to fly that it's down-right relaxing.

DKoor
10-07-2009, 08:03 PM
I on the other hand think that B.239 has the best handling chars of all U.S. planes (albeit an export version of the type)... or Buffalo or F2A... Wildcat is also rock solid. P-40 is also good but in my book these are most stable.

Daniel39363
10-07-2009, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by The_Stealth_Owl:
Out classed by Bi-planes turning wise and late-ware planes.


Cool plane though. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Avia............ http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

The hellcat is great against most Japanese fighters. Excellent against light armor fighters, good against all else. I do like flying it although I would not consider it for a beginner. I managed to double team avia on a 4.09 server and me and my friend won. I was flying a wildcat.

DKoor
10-07-2009, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by Daniel39363:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The_Stealth_Owl:
Out classed by Bi-planes turning wise and late-ware planes.


Cool plane though. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Avia............ http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

The hellcat is great against most Japanese fighters. Excellent against light armor fighters, good against all else. I do like flying it although I would not consider it for a beginner. I managed to double team avia on a 4.09 server and me and my friend won. I was flying a wildcat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Of all new planes I feel that Avia is the most fragile one, or to be more precise, it has softiest DM http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .
No wonder it has huge radiator under fuselage so it easily gets caught by 7,62 spam.

Achilles97
10-07-2009, 08:08 PM
Thank you for the replies.

I'm flying the bf109 so he wants to fly a different plane for variety sake.

He tried the Hellcat today and found it so-so. I recommended a few more, including the MC205vIII and J2M5. We are playing on a server with some friends and we are trying to all fly different mounts, so most of the first choices are already taken, such as the Russian planes.

I'll recommend the P40... M ? Also, I think he should give the Seafire a shot.

Thanks!!!!

M_Gunz
10-07-2009, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
lol ... I have searched my aircraft specs books and can't find any stats for this "wobbliness" characteristic ...


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

How about PIO?

TS_Sancho
10-07-2009, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
lol ... I have searched my aircraft specs books and can't find any stats for this "wobbliness" characteristic ...


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

How about PIO? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or Dutch roll?

Ba5tard5word
10-07-2009, 09:58 PM
He tried the Hellcat today and found it so-so. I recommended a few more, including the MC205vIII and J2M5. We are playing on a server with some friends and we are trying to all fly different mounts, so most of the first choices are already taken, such as the Russian planes.

The MC 205 Series III is pretty great. Very stable, pretty fast and its cannon armament is decent. I'd take it over a 109, which is a nice plane but sometimes I find it hard to get shots in with its nose-mounted guns.

The J2M is awesome too, very fast, maneuverable, and good armament, definitely my favorite Japanese plane.


And the Hellcat is ok but my problem with it is its low top speed--it's hard to get over 490kph at sea level. That is ok against most Japanese planes like Zeros and Ki-43's but against pretty much any other plane from 1943 onwards that is just too slow. Like I said it just feels underpowered.

beNdeR__
10-07-2009, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by Achilles97:
Thank you for the replies.

I'm flying the bf109 so he wants to fly a different plane for variety sake.

He tried the Hellcat today and found it so-so. I recommended a few more, including the MC205vIII and J2M5. We are playing on a server with some friends and we are trying to all fly different mounts, so most of the first choices are already taken, such as the Russian planes.

I'll recommend the P40... M ? Also, I think he should give the Seafire a shot.

Thanks!!!!

As far as late war planes go, maybe have him take a look at the Ki-84, or even Ki-61, with cannon armament of course. The 61 is a bit slow compared to contemporaries, but is a pretty fun plane to fly. The Ki-84 is pretty beastly, decent speed and really good armament (4x20mm, or 2x20 and 2x30mm)

WOLFMondo
10-08-2009, 04:49 AM
Originally posted by Achilles97:
He wants a more stable plane with friendly handling characteristics.


Try the P38J. Its stable and friendly but takes allot of get the most out of it. Very rewarding plane though when you start to get to grips with what it can do.

Only elevator trim is needed so its easy to start out with.

Bremspropeller
10-08-2009, 05:06 AM
How about PIO?

Nope.
PIOs are produced by overshooting target-attitudes because the pilot applies the controls too late or too early in the oscillation-mode, thus creating an ever-diverging amplitude.


Or Dutch roll?

Very unlikely - WW2 planes should be much too stable for any Duth-Roll to develop.

RamsteinUSA
10-08-2009, 05:49 AM
One of our squad memeber flew Hellcats off carriers in the Navy. **I think he said** he said the stall f/m is wrong. he tried to get Oleg to change it several years ago. He is pretty much an expert (or as close to an expert as there is flying IL-2) on this and was an engineer for boeing.

I think (I am not 100% sure if he will pursue this again..) he is going to try to get it fixed in a future patch. Also he is very knowledgeable about the aircraft guns, and may try to get some work done on some guns in thsi sim..

I can't say anymore, we will see if any of this comes to fruition with several planes in IL-2 and future patches..

Apparently there maybe more patches now that 4.09 was offically released a few days ago..

he might send the powers that be information to
fix these iissues..

We can only hope..


Originally posted by Achilles97:
My friends and I are flying dogfight battles on a 4.09b server. My friend was flying the FW190 and I185 but he wasn't satisfied. He wants a more stable plane with friendly handling characteristics.

What do you think of the Hellcat? My impression is that it's rugged, good firepower, very stable, and is really difficult to stall. Surprisingly good maneuverability too.

Thanks!

R_Target
10-08-2009, 06:13 AM
I doubt we'll see any fixes for the F6F. I sent OM tons of docs proving the top speed was wrong. That was almost three years ago.

RamsteinUSA
10-08-2009, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by R_Target:
I doubt we'll see any fixes for the F6F. I sent OM tons of docs proving the top speed was wrong. That was almost three years ago.

yep,
there are lots of us that were around since day one,, used to fly EAW before IL-2. Tried CFS-2, but it never caught on with the squads I flew with. That was way to buggy. Flew a few other sims..

back to IL-2.

Yes, the forums and chatrooms were full of people complaining to Oleg. Not all complaining though. Lots of us were getting facts and data and trying to get Oleg and his team to correct certain items.

I don't mean to dig up old threads and conversations, but.. we were shocked that the time was spent to put things in like imaginary aircraft that never flew, like the Lerche and a few other.. but they never went on to fix the major aircraft... the ones that actually flew the whole war in huge numbers..

yes I know that's wasn't Oleg, but his other team members and friends..

I made known my feelings on my own website... that way people won't nag me and the moderators about my views..

I just hope to hell that in the addons that follow SOW:BOB in the year 2015 (haha..) are correct for the allied aircraft in the next go-round that were not finished and correct in IL-2 1946..

doraemil
10-08-2009, 10:45 AM
A good way is have your friend fly different fighters and see which ones he likes.

For me I tend to go Axis and VVS planes, I'm not skilled enough to work the US planes. I like the BF-109 and MC 205

If he must go American:

Another vote for P-38, that is very stable. Its not a turner and when used for BnZ with lots of altitude advantage it is awesome.

Another one that is a stable gun platform (once trimmed up etc and you aren't close to stall envelope) is the P-39/63, but aiming that 37 mm nose cannon is a whole 'nother story. P-39/63 stalls can be rough. I like the 20mm one.

P-47 is until you open fire http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

P-51 is, but takes work with the 3 way trimming


They did get the dual air and ground attack of US planes down though.

On the "American planes is nerfed", I would have to agree on some aspects.

.50 cal for me only works inside 200 convergence.

And you fly the La-7 and its 20mm is a like a buzzsaw and has a faster firing rate than .50's .

And when I fly them, they all seem sluggish and 'average' even when you fly them for what they were known for.

Like the FW-190 you can feel its roll rate, the BF-109 you can feel its climb.

But the US fighters you don't feel their 'specialty' flight characterstics.

Oh well, yes hopefully they can get those remedied next gen game.

DKoor
10-08-2009, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by doraemil:

If he must go American:

Another vote for P-38, that is very stable. Its not a turner and when used for BnZ with lots of altitude advantage it is awesome.
Unfortunately you've pointed one style of aerial combat that is, mildly put, not a P-38's forte... it locks control surfaces on par or even worse than Bf-109 on higher speeds, by higher I don't mean +600kph it is more like +450kph.
Any other American aircraft of the period is more suited to BnZ than P-38... P-47, P-51 even P-40. P-38(J)'s forte is agility vs FW-190's in mid war... I previously considered P-38L_LATE to be superior in mix it up combat style than FW-190A8/9/D9 - I was wrong, LATE is better than A8 on par with A9 and worse then D9.
And one note... Bf-109 should NEVER be engaged on even terms!
Hope that helps a bit. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Frankthetank36
10-08-2009, 01:15 PM
Don't know about you guys but I always have trouble getting kills with planes that have just machine guns. Which is pretty much every American plane I can think of except the P-38 and P-39 (but at least the P-47 has 8 of them). I like the Tempest a lot, great for BnZ and has enough maneuverability to ensure that they don't get away from you, but haven't had many games where it was an option. The 109 ain't too bad either, and neither are the Spits (the ones with cannons, anyway).

thefruitbat
10-08-2009, 03:47 PM
haven't read the rest, but not as good as it should be.

But, it still kicks *** in the pto, i prefer it to the corsair, one of the most stable 50 pltforms imo. lights up zeros for fun.

fruitbat

Ba5tard5word
10-08-2009, 05:47 PM
Don't know about you guys but I always have trouble getting kills with planes that have just machine guns.

I used to hate .50 cals too.

Then I turned on Limited Ammo, which forces you to try and get the most out of your ammo. I went from shooting wildly at 500m from the enemy to 200m and saw a huge difference in accuracy and damage just from being close, also I got a bit better and more careful at aiming. Then I tried using .50 cals, which you REALLY have to use at around 200m or closer, 250 is ok in a pinch but further than that and they lose punch. I quickly found that .50 cals are great and are like a giant pair of scissors, you just have to get in close and fire quick bursts. I even don't really mind .30 cals as long as I have a few of them with plenty of ammo and they aren't those annoying .50/.30 cal peashooters the Japanese and Italian planes use.

Frankthetank36
10-08-2009, 07:01 PM
So some planes have stronger guns than others, even when they're the same caliber? No wonder I can never get kills in a Zero once the cannon runs out (although it isn't much better in the Spit either). But even with guns at close range (not sure how far exactly since I don't have an indicator enabled that tells me the distance from the enemy), I just seem to get little bits and pieces falling off the enemy plane, not like with cannons that have huge explosions that completely rip their wings off a lot of the time.

HarryVoyager
10-09-2009, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by Frankthetank36:
So some planes have stronger guns than others, even when they're the same caliber? No wonder I can never get kills in a Zero once the cannon runs out (although it isn't much better in the Spit either). But even with guns at close range (not sure how far exactly since I don't have an indicator enabled that tells me the distance from the enemy), I just seem to get little bits and pieces falling off the enemy plane, not like with cannons that have huge explosions that completely rip their wings off a lot of the time.

Caliber is only the diameter of the round, and doesn't cover slug mass, or the power driving it. The German MG131 has a 13mm round, but only the energy to get it to ~750m/s with a 34 gram slug, while the Browning .50 has a strong enough charge to push its 12.7mm, 43 gram bullet up to 890m/s.

The Japanese and Italian 12.7mm guns use shorter cartridges with less powder than the US/British 0.50's so they have lower muzzle velocity, less stopping power, and lower penetration.

With heavy machine guns, the goal isn't to blow them apart, but rather, you are trying to cripple them. Primarily, you're going for black/grey smoke, or an outright engine stoppage.

As for the Hellcat, I've found it excellent for going after 1943 generation Japanese fighters, but it doesn't excel in either speed or turning performance enough to really compete against the European theater aircraft.

Basically, it's fast enough that it can BnZ any of the 1000hp Japanese fighters, and it can turn well enough that they generally can't break away from the boom. It has enough firepower to kill them, and enough armour that they can't kill it. Against a Ki-43 or A6M it is the wrath of god. Not so much against anything else.

That's not to say that that's a meen feat. Try taking out an early A6M in a Ta-152C. It might not kill you, but it may give you an aneurysm.

Harry Voyager

DKoor
10-09-2009, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by RamsteinUSA:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by R_Target:
I doubt we'll see any fixes for the F6F. I sent OM tons of docs proving the top speed was wrong. That was almost three years ago.

yep,
there are lots of us that were around since day one,, used to fly EAW before IL-2. Tried CFS-2, but it never caught on with the squads I flew with. That was way to buggy. Flew a few other sims..

back to IL-2.

Yes, the forums and chatrooms were full of people complaining to Oleg. Not all complaining though. Lots of us were getting facts and data and trying to get Oleg and his team to correct certain items.

I don't mean to dig up old threads and conversations, but.. we were shocked that the time was spent to put things in like imaginary aircraft that never flew, like the Lerche and a few other.. but they never went on to fix the major aircraft... the ones that actually flew the whole war in huge numbers..

yes I know that's wasn't Oleg, but his other team members and friends..

I made known my feelings on my own website... that way people won't nag me and the moderators about my views..

I just hope to hell that in the addons that follow SOW:BOB in the year 2015 (haha..) are correct for the allied aircraft in the next go-round that were not finished and correct in IL-2 1946.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>By the year 2020 we will probably have fully patched SoW & expansions... maybe even fixed some hot IL-2 issue as well... what more can we ask http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

DKoor
10-09-2009, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by Frankthetank36:
So some planes have stronger guns than others, even when they're the same caliber? No wonder I can never get kills in a Zero once the cannon runs out (although it isn't much better in the Spit either). But even with guns at close range (not sure how far exactly since I don't have an indicator enabled that tells me the distance from the enemy), I just seem to get little bits and pieces falling off the enemy plane, not like with cannons that have huge explosions that completely rip their wings off a lot of the time. Hey mate it isn't easy but it is doable... check out this track;
http://www.esnips.com/doc/1a55...oorKi43-vs-4xFM2-408 (http://www.esnips.com/doc/1a55a697-d86d-4d7a-b844-a731212133b2/DKoorKi43-vs-4xFM2-408)

I shot 4 super Wildcats in that track... those are vastly harder to down than Zeros and also I shot them down with Japanese 12,7mm (.50cal) which is actually inferior to U.S. .50cal, in game too... it can be done. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif
But it's hard.

Ba5tard5word
10-09-2009, 01:05 AM
So some planes have stronger guns than others, even when they're the same caliber? No wonder I can never get kills in a Zero once the cannon runs out (although it isn't much better in the Spit either). But even with guns at close range (not sure how far exactly since I don't have an indicator enabled that tells me the distance from the enemy), I just seem to get little bits and pieces falling off the enemy plane, not like with cannons that have huge explosions that completely rip their wings off a lot of the time.

Most of the Zeros have 7.62mm (.30 cal) MG's, not 12.7mm/13mm (.50 cal) guns. Some of the later ones have 13mm ones though.

The Japanese and Italian MG's I just cannot get any hits in at all with, and they don't do much damage whether they are .30 or .50 cals. They have big white tracers that you'd think would be good for hitting enemies with, but they seem harder to get in hits with for some reason, I guess because they have less velocity than German or Allied MG's.

DKoor
10-09-2009, 02:19 AM
Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So some planes have stronger guns than others, even when they're the same caliber? No wonder I can never get kills in a Zero once the cannon runs out (although it isn't much better in the Spit either). But even with guns at close range (not sure how far exactly since I don't have an indicator enabled that tells me the distance from the enemy), I just seem to get little bits and pieces falling off the enemy plane, not like with cannons that have huge explosions that completely rip their wings off a lot of the time.

Most of the Zeros have 7.62mm (.30 cal) MG's, not 12.7mm/13mm (.50 cal) guns. Some of the later ones have 13mm ones though.

The Japanese and Italian MG's I just cannot get any hits in at all with, and they don't do much damage whether they are .30 or .50 cals. They have big white tracers that you'd think would be good for hitting enemies with, but they seem harder to get in hits with for some reason, I guess because they have less velocity than German or Allied MG's. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>+1

It is easier to hit with Browning .50cal and UBS 12,7mm than with any of existing axis 12,7mm, be it MG131, Breda-Safat 12,7mm or their Japanese counterparts.

M_Gunz
10-09-2009, 08:08 AM
If you're used to the interval it takes for Browning 50 bullets to cross a certain amount of space to reach target then
you're going to make mistakes in timing your aim and shots with slower bullets. It's not about which ones are better
down at the target range since what matters there is consistency above all else. The most used match rifle cartridge
sold is the .22 LR rimfire with a muzzle velocity just over Mach 1, not some 3000+ fps varmint round.

Stop jumping from plane to plane and you might get used to how long your shots take to cross 100's of meters.

doraemil
10-12-2009, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
If you're used to the interval it takes for Browning 50 bullets to cross a certain amount of space to reach target then
you're going to make mistakes in timing your aim and shots with slower bullets. It's not about which ones are better
down at the target range since what matters there is consistency above all else. The most used match rifle cartridge
sold is the .22 LR rimfire with a muzzle velocity just over Mach 1, not some 3000+ fps varmint round.

Stop jumping from plane to plane and you might get used to how long your shots take to cross 100's of meters.


Thanks . . .


You know what, I've noticed this too. Well I like flying B109's. All versions. I notice the 20m's in the emil I have to aim them diffently than say the 20 mm's for F n G models. Well wing vs nose aside, I mean the timing of bullet path . . .

Also the 15mm in the 109F2 vs the 20mm in G2 .

its funny because my aiming goes out the window in the triple cannon la-7 when it should be cake with that type of cannon it has, but I can hit better than the 109 with the 30mm nose cannon . . .


In regarding SOW series, yes I sure hope they fix things regardin the main A/C.

Well they are doing Battle O Britain, so at least they'll model spits, hurricanes, ju-88's, he-111's, emils, and other participants properly.

Erkki_M
10-12-2009, 03:49 AM
One thing about the IL2's Hellcat... It shares the same "bug" with Corsair, P-47 and Wildcat: never open radiator one bit, it'll only increase the drag and not help cooling the engine at all!

Like P47 and F4U it has cronic tendency to overheat at lower alts but above 6000m has no power limit at all. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Also, The IL2's F6F-3 and F6F5 are identical in all ways but the cockpit. The F-3 even has the same loadouts(it was more limited in real life) and has slightly better cockpit visibility, so always pick it if possible!

M_Gunz
10-12-2009, 04:00 AM
The best way to lower engine heat is to get it below redline (100%) for a while. Anyone with experience pushing
the old manual shift non-chip-controlled cars should know this, bikers should even more so. It works in the IL2
models I've used as well. If radiator flaps cost X kph then see about lower rpms with closed flaps to get the
same speed and if you can then you're all set.

From back in the first year of IL2 it was out that open radiator flaps also left greater chances of your engine
getting damage even from fragments -- all those oil lines and electric parts are weaker than the crankcase.

Sillius_Sodus
10-12-2009, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So some planes have stronger guns than others, even when they're the same caliber? No wonder I can never get kills in a Zero once the cannon runs out (although it isn't much better in the Spit either). But even with guns at close range (not sure how far exactly since I don't have an indicator enabled that tells me the distance from the enemy), I just seem to get little bits and pieces falling off the enemy plane, not like with cannons that have huge explosions that completely rip their wings off a lot of the time.

Most of the Zeros have 7.62mm (.30 cal) MG's, not 12.7mm/13mm (.50 cal) guns. Some of the later ones have 13mm ones though.

The Japanese and Italian MG's I just cannot get any hits in at all with, and they don't do much damage whether they are .30 or .50 cals. They have big white tracers that you'd think would be good for hitting enemies with, but they seem harder to get in hits with for some reason, I guess because they have less velocity than German or Allied MG's. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Italian 12.7's, while not as good as the US .50's, are not that bad, you just have to keep your pipper on the target for a few seconds more. Luckily the Italian kites are fairly maneuverable, if a bit slow.

Avont29
10-13-2009, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by beNdeR__:
Check out the P-47 as well. With planes like the P-47, FW-190, Corsair, Hellcat etc, you definitely want to fly to their strengths, which means avoiding turn fights, and going for hit and run attacks

no not exactly hit and run...more like stall fight

for all you people badmouthing the energy fighters ( p-47, fw-190, corsair, hellcat, etc. ), these planes PWN other planes if you know how to fly them right, which like bender said, flying them to their strengths. Which basically mean keep your energy(speed) up....

real dogfights aren't fought at a lame 130 mph on the deck...real manly dogfights take place 12K+ feet in the air at speeds up to 260M.P.H.

The corsair, as well as the hellcat, has a strong, powerful, and durable heavy-duty pratt&whitney radial engine; powerful weapons; and can sustain extremely fast speeds( up to 480MPH). Also it's zoom speed is fast.

American planes can't turn great like japanese planes or german planes, but their boom&zoom capabilities are superior, and if used right can pounce on any plane it sees like a Lion on a it's prey
http://img2.photographersdirect.com/img/12366/wm/pd303400.jpg

I'm an expert corsair fighter.

Frankthetank36
10-15-2009, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by HarryVoyager:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Frankthetank36:
So some planes have stronger guns than others, even when they're the same caliber? No wonder I can never get kills in a Zero once the cannon runs out (although it isn't much better in the Spit either). But even with guns at close range (not sure how far exactly since I don't have an indicator enabled that tells me the distance from the enemy), I just seem to get little bits and pieces falling off the enemy plane, not like with cannons that have huge explosions that completely rip their wings off a lot of the time.

Caliber is only the diameter of the round, and doesn't cover slug mass, or the power driving it. The German MG131 has a 13mm round, but only the energy to get it to ~750m/s with a 34 gram slug, while the Browning .50 has a strong enough charge to push its 12.7mm, 43 gram bullet up to 890m/s.

The Japanese and Italian 12.7mm guns use shorter cartridges with less powder than the US/British 0.50's so they have lower muzzle velocity, less stopping power, and lower penetration.

With heavy machine guns, the goal isn't to blow them apart, but rather, you are trying to cripple them. Primarily, you're going for black/grey smoke, or an outright engine stoppage.

As for the Hellcat, I've found it excellent for going after 1943 generation Japanese fighters, but it doesn't excel in either speed or turning performance enough to really compete against the European theater aircraft.

Basically, it's fast enough that it can BnZ any of the 1000hp Japanese fighters, and it can turn well enough that they generally can't break away from the boom. It has enough firepower to kill them, and enough armour that they can't kill it. Against a Ki-43 or A6M it is the wrath of god. Not so much against anything else.

That's not to say that that's a meen feat. Try taking out an early A6M in a Ta-152C. It might not kill you, but it may give you an aneurysm.

Harry Voyager </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Eh? The 152 is one of the best (if not THE best) piston fighters in the game. If you're accurate, you can clip the wings of most fighters in one burst, gotta love the 30mm cannon (planes that are much more durable than Zeros), it can go over 100mph faster than the Zero in level flight, and unlike the FW190, it has enough maneuverability to ensure that they don't get away from your boom (I'll never understand how people can use the 190 against anything but bombers, it has no pitch authority whatsoever).

Ba5tard5word
10-15-2009, 11:45 AM
A good way to learn energy fighting is to fly a Tempest against a group of AI Ki-61's. They are much slower than the Tempest's top speed but much more maneuverable and if you don't keep your speed up and zip by them, they'll get on your six and stay there no matter what you do. It can be pretty intense, the AI flies slow Japanese planes like 61's, 43's and Zeros exactly the way they are supposed to be flown--they wait until a faster plane makes the mistake of dropping to their speed, then they pounce.

Or try P-38's against Zeroes or 43's, that is tough too.

Unknown-Pilot
10-15-2009, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Frankthetank36:
Eh? The 152 is one of the best (if not THE best) piston fighters in the game. If you're accurate, you can clip the wings of most fighters in one burst, gotta love the 30mm cannon (planes that are much more durable than Zeros), it can go over 100mph faster than the Zero in level flight, and unlike the FW190, it has enough maneuverability to ensure that they don't get away from your boom (I'll never understand how people can use the 190 against anything but bombers, it has no pitch authority whatsoever).

Check your stick settings maybe?

Firepower does not make a plane good (but it can make a good plane better). Guns aside, I can't see much use for the 152, especially the C.

You say the 190s have "no pitch authority", yet according to the 4.09 updated IL2 Compare, the 190A9 will take 23.17 seconds to turn 360* at 374kph, whereas the 152C will take 27.15 seconds and do so at 388kph. Best turn speeds are roughly identical, but the Anton creams the 152. And this is true across all speed ranges. In fact, the Anton cna still turn (albeit, SLOWLY) at 540kph, the 152C gives up at 520.

On the deck, the A9 is faster. Falling behind only from 2 to 4Km, and then it's faster once again all the way to 10Km. And the Anton also outclimbs the 152C at all atlitudes up to 7Km (where it falls quickly behind in ROC).

The 152C does have 1 disticnt advantage, it has a higher VNE.

But given the choice, I would take an A9 over a Ta-152C any day. And would much prefer a Dora over either.

The H, oddly enough supposed to be the high alt version whereas the C was the low alt version, will actually beat the A9 clear across the board, speed, climb, and turn at all speeds, from the deck all the way to 10km. Which ironically, makes it a better low alt fighter than the low alt version. lol

Still rather the Dora though - faster everywhere below 8Km (than the 152H), climbs better up to 7Km, and turns better past 420kph (and maintaining authority to a higher speed than the A9).

Ever since we got the 152s, I wondered about them. Did Tank just plain screw up? Or are they not being properly represented? Or were there problems with the ones used for testing, from which the sim's FM are derived?

Assuming they are properly modeled, and there was nothing wrong with the actual tested craft, then it was a clear step backwards - and that just doesn't make much sense.

TS_Sancho
10-15-2009, 12:40 PM
I'll never understand how people can use the 190 against anything but bombers, it has no pitch authority whatsoever


?...

All the FW190's enjoy excellent elevator authority.

Frankthetank36
10-15-2009, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by Unknown-Pilot:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Frankthetank36:
Eh? The 152 is one of the best (if not THE best) piston fighters in the game. If you're accurate, you can clip the wings of most fighters in one burst, gotta love the 30mm cannon (planes that are much more durable than Zeros), it can go over 100mph faster than the Zero in level flight, and unlike the FW190, it has enough maneuverability to ensure that they don't get away from your boom (I'll never understand how people can use the 190 against anything but bombers, it has no pitch authority whatsoever).

Check your stick settings maybe?

Firepower does not make a plane good (but it can make a good plane better). Guns aside, I can't see much use for the 152, especially the C.

You say the 190s have "no pitch authority", yet according to the 4.09 updated IL2 Compare, the 190A9 will take 23.17 seconds to turn 360* at 374kph, whereas the 152C will take 27.15 seconds and do so at 388kph. Best turn speeds are roughly identical, but the Anton creams the 152. And this is true across all speed ranges. In fact, the Anton cna still turn (albeit, SLOWLY) at 540kph, the 152C gives up at 520.

On the deck, the A9 is faster. Falling behind only from 2 to 4Km, and then it's faster once again all the way to 10Km. And the Anton also outclimbs the 152C at all atlitudes up to 7Km (where it falls quickly behind in ROC).

The 152C does have 1 disticnt advantage, it has a higher VNE.

But given the choice, I would take an A9 over a Ta-152C any day. And would much prefer a Dora over either.

The H, oddly enough supposed to be the high alt version whereas the C was the low alt version, will actually beat the A9 clear across the board, speed, climb, and turn at all speeds, from the deck all the way to 10km. Which ironically, makes it a better low alt fighter than the low alt version. lol

Still rather the Dora though - faster everywhere below 8Km (than the 152H), climbs better up to 7Km, and turns better past 420kph (and maintaining authority to a higher speed than the A9).

Ever since we got the 152s, I wondered about them. Did Tank just plain screw up? Or are they not being properly represented? Or were there problems with the ones used for testing, from which the sim's FM are derived?

Assuming they are properly modeled, and there was nothing wrong with the actual tested craft, then it was a clear step backwards - and that just doesn't make much sense. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I usually fly the 152H, so if the 152C is vastly inferior, I haven't noticed. I don't think they were undermodelled, the plane was simply designed to take out B-29s so it was meant to fly at high altitudes. 470mph at altitude and 350mph at sea level (with boost engaged, although it lasts a lot longer than with most planes) ain't no joke. As for the 190, maybe I'm just not pushing it to it's turning limit because it flips over so friggin' easily if you stall it, or maybe it just looses authority at a relatively low speed, but people sure seem to get away easily when I BnZ them (the same can't be said of, say, a Tempest). Is the 190 better in 4.09 (I haven't made the upgrade yet)? But it sure seems to me that while the 190 has vastly superior roll ability, the 152 turns more quickly, which has proven (so far) to be more important. And there definitely isn't much you can do in a 190 if someone gets on your tail and you don't have a lot of altitude to get away. Haven't flown the D yet because it hasn't been in too many online games and I'm busy flying other things in campaigns, but I sure have been disappointed with the A's handling.

Ba5tard5word
10-15-2009, 01:37 PM
I think you just aren't used to the 190. It's not great at turning but if you're good at aiming you don't have to stay in a turn battle very long--just get one blast on a fighter and he's usually done. And its roll rate means you can change direction quicker if you know what you're doing.

With experience you get used to the speed stall (where it flips to the right if you pull back on the stick) and get used to how hard you can pull on the stick before it happens, and also you will see the warning signs where it pulls a tiny bit and you can hear the air buffeting around the plane and see the plane shake a bit. A lot of major planes do it too, like Spitfires, Tempests, Corsairs, etc etc, so it's not just the 190.

Unknown-Pilot
10-15-2009, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by Frankthetank36:
I usually fly the 152H, so if the 152C is vastly inferior, I haven't noticed. I don't think they were undermodelled, the plane was simply designed to take out B-29s so it was meant to fly at high altitudes. 470mph at altitude and 350mph at sea level (with boost engaged, although it lasts a lot longer than with most planes) ain't no joke. As for the 190, maybe I'm just not pushing it to it's turning limit because it flips over so friggin' easily if you stall it, or maybe it just looses authority at a relatively low speed, but people sure seem to get away easily when I BnZ them (the same can't be said of, say, a Tempest). Is the 190 better in 4.09 (I haven't made the upgrade yet)? But it sure seems to me that while the 190 has vastly superior roll ability, the 152 turns more quickly, which has proven (so far) to be more important. And there definitely isn't much you can do in a 190 if someone gets on your tail and you don't have a lot of altitude to get away. Haven't flown the D yet because it hasn't been in too many online games and I'm busy flying other things in campaigns, but I sure have been disappointed with the A's handling.

It still seems like he should have left well enough alone and just tweaked the Dora - is the sim is anything to guage by, he went backwards with the 152, and his claims if it being a whole new world left general opinion (and use) of the Dora lower than it might have been.

Anyway, in '42, the F4 and G2 109s are arguably superior to the A4, however, the A4 can still wreak havoc, especially in groups.

In 43, it shifts. While the G6 is still capable against it's contemporaries, the A5, A5 1.65ATA, and A6 are the better choices.

Rember, when the Antons came on the scene, they gave the RAF fits and nightmares.

Against the Spit Vbs of '43 vintage, the Antons have speed at all altitudes (and lots of it), plus roll rate, plus firepower, plus armor advantages. While the Spitfire will run low speed rings around the 190, at high speeds (420kph+) turn rates are actually equal. Over that and the 190 is superior. And the 190 will outclimb the Spit Vb through sheer speed (high speed, low angle climb) as well.

Just stay fast, anticipate, use your roll advantage, and smash them with your 6 guns and you are golden.

The Mark 8s get a bit scarier. You have to REALLY push them fast to attain parity in turn rate, but still hold roll, armor, and firepower advantages. You can still outclimb then through speed (just not as easily), and are faster from 0 to almost 3Km, then even until almost 4Km, then faster again (until almost 7Km, and just drop off from there).

Stay in your advantageous alt ranges, and stay fast. I wouldn't call a Spitfire meat on the table, but... you can at least be nearly untouchable to them (and living is more important than scoring a kill http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ).

'43 IXcs are actually much like the 8s, so all the same basic stuff applies.

Like bastardsword said, it just takes time to get used to it.

TS_Sancho
10-15-2009, 02:28 PM
If your having problems with high speed stalls lighten up on your control input (changing your stick settings will make a big difference as well).

There is a utility called IL2 compare which charts aircraft V speeds. Download it here...

http://mission4today.com/index...Base&op=show&kid=348 (http://mission4today.com/index.php?name=Knowledge_Base&op=show&kid=348)

A big part of the trick is keeping the aircraft in the part of the flight envelope it was designed to fly in.

FW190 likes to go fast, flying in tight slow speed horizontal circles is not what it and its peers were designed for.

F6F vs. A6M is actually a very good example of this. The Hellcat will dominate the Zero if flown to its V speeds where as the Hellcat is doomed if it slows down to fight the Zeros fight.

After some practice and refinement to your technique you should find the FW190 antons are on par or superior to any of their contemporaries.

Frankthetank36
10-15-2009, 04:38 PM
Yes, I try to make small control movements but then the enemy has no problem escaping my BnZ attack simply because I don't have the maneuverability to line up on their six. I mean, when they notice you (and they WILL notice if you're playing with external views on), they have no problem just doing a loop or split-s or something to get out of the way. I usually try to dive down on them quickly instead of getting involved in long dogfights, but I nonetheless find it a lot easier to get kills with the 109 because of the superior handling. Having six guns (four of them cannons) is great, but not when you can't line up to use them.

Unknown-Pilot
10-15-2009, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by Frankthetank36:
Yes, I try to make small control movements but then the enemy has no problem escaping my BnZ attack simply because I don't have the maneuverability to line up on their six. I mean, when they notice you (and they WILL notice if you're playing with external views on), they have no problem just doing a loop or split-s or something to get out of the way. I usually try to dive down on them quickly instead of getting involved in long dogfights, but I nonetheless find it a lot easier to get kills with the 109 because of the superior handling. Having six guns (four of them cannons) is great, but not when you can't line up to use them.

I was thinking about this after my last post.

If you look at the curves, and what I mentioned, the turn rates are only similar at higher speeds, however, in that case, both are losing ground vs their optimals (just that the spit/la/yak/etc lose it more quickly, allowing for parity).

Which means, if they are down in their optimal turn speed range, and you are diving down, very fast.... yeah, you'll have a problem trying to follow, so I can see where you're coming from.

Now as you said, you're playing in an externals server, which compounds the problem.

All that said... a 109 would be worse in that same regime as it stiffens up a lot more, a lot sooner, so you have to use it completely differently, and generally at much lower speeds.

One thing to do is to go after those who are chasing your team-mates. Even on an externals server, they won't see you coming because they will be inside aiming. (just make sure it's not a wonder-woman server so you can avoid those stupid arrows of omniscience)

Another thing to do is look for no-externals servers, but... I prefer externals too, makes it far less tedious on those longer flights (and this IS a GAME afterall, but that's another discussion lol).

Finally, you could try not diving so fast, and cutting them off through angles (since you are further back, they have to turn more than you). These combined should give you what you need. Also, it's been said that you should go for no more than a 1/4 turn in pursuit anyway as you want to maintain your speed. (and the nice thing is, if you are in the best 190 alts, you should be faster than your quarry, straight and level, anyway, so you shouldn't need 6Km of dive.... just a little.

M_Gunz
10-15-2009, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Frankthetank36:
Yes, I try to make small control movements but then the enemy has no problem escaping my BnZ attack simply because I don't have the maneuverability to line up on their six. I mean, when they notice you (and they WILL notice if you're playing with external views on), they have no problem just doing a loop or split-s or something to get out of the way. I usually try to dive down on them quickly instead of getting involved in long dogfights, but I nonetheless find it a lot easier to get kills with the 109 because of the superior handling. Having six guns (four of them cannons) is great, but not when you can't line up to use them.

Learn to shoot from farther away. Then you can turn a smaller angle to his large one and still lead him. Sure the shots
won't have the kinetic energy they would from closer but hits are better than can't-hits, from off to the 5 or 7 your shots
don't have to hit as hard as from 6 anyway. A high closing rate will take care of the extra range, the shots will take less
time to cross so treat your convergence as if it is longer when you are closing fast and practice, practice, practice.

VMF-214_HaVoK
10-15-2009, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by The_Stealth_Owl:
Out classed by Bi-planes turning wise and late-ware planes.


Cool plane though. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Hardly true.

Ba5tard5word
10-16-2009, 12:57 AM
Yes, I try to make small control movements but then the enemy has no problem escaping my BnZ attack simply because I don't have the maneuverability to line up on their six. I mean, when they notice you (and they WILL notice if you're playing with external views on), they have no problem just doing a loop or split-s or something to get out of the way. I usually try to dive down on them quickly instead of getting involved in long dogfights, but I nonetheless find it a lot easier to get kills with the 109 because of the superior handling. Having six guns (four of them cannons) is great, but not when you can't line up to use them.


If you're having trouble with it online, I'd try it offline until you get to how you have to handle it. The 190 really is a great plane, I really prefer it to the 109 because it's faster and has way better armament.

Frankthetank36
10-16-2009, 06:59 AM
Waddaya know, actually managed to get a couple of air-to-air kills online with a P-38 (before some kamikaze Zero rammed me head-on). Thing feels like a twin-engine FW with much weaker armament and a slower roll rate. Can see how these things are good for more than just ground attack and intercepting bombers. Although the Lighting is some 50mph faster than the competition even in level flight :/

Frankthetank36
10-17-2009, 10:37 AM
Although a Ta-152 would still destroy an A6M2. I mean, am I the only guy here who thinks that 350mph at sea level and 470mph at altitude is absolutely insane? You could BnZ the zero without even having to dive.

Ba5tard5word
10-17-2009, 04:27 PM
Well they weren't exactly built to compete with one another...