PDA

View Full Version : Ghost Pilot



IAMTA
10-09-2004, 03:46 PM
The detail in the cockpits today are great. But the absence of a pilot in the seat in IL2 and Forgotten Battles was accepted. Now we are moving forward with new and more detailed simulations.
I for one would like to see hands on controls and feet on the pedals, moving with my input. That would make a great cockpit even greater.

IAMTA
10-09-2004, 03:46 PM
The detail in the cockpits today are great. But the absence of a pilot in the seat in IL2 and Forgotten Battles was accepted. Now we are moving forward with new and more detailed simulations.
I for one would like to see hands on controls and feet on the pedals, moving with my input. That would make a great cockpit even greater.

tolwyn.com
10-09-2004, 03:54 PM
I'm on the opposite side of the fence. I would NOT want to see a false avatar flying my plane.

It gets in the way and is too static for my taste. I can use my imagination to "pretend" that *I* am in the cockpit, not some artificial limb, etc.

Besides there's racial issues, too. What if I'm black and they choose to put a caucasion pilot in there?

Just takes away from a great many things in my opinion. "Hardcodes" something that you can fill in with your own imagination.

Not to mention the added polygons.

3.JG51_BigBear
10-09-2004, 05:16 PM
This was addressed a while back. Apparently this feature would take forever to implement because a unique "pilot" would have to be custom fitted to every cockpit. I so rarely look down at the rudder pedals anyway I don't know how much this would add to the sim.

IAMTA
10-10-2004, 06:19 PM
You put gloves on the hands. Problem solved.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tolwyn.com:
I'm on the opposite side of the fence. I would NOT want to see a false avatar flying my plane.

It gets in the way and is too static for my taste. I can use my imagination to "pretend" that *I* am in the cockpit, not some artificial limb, etc.

Besides there's racial issues, too. What if I'm black and they choose to put a caucasion pilot in there?

Just takes away from a great many things in my opinion. "Hardcodes" something that you can fill in with your own imagination.

Not to mention the added polygons. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gato__Loco
10-10-2004, 07:54 PM
Great! Some static arms that can't move and will block even more instruments. Now that is an idea!

IAMTA
10-11-2004, 07:06 PM
There would be no racial issues with a gloved hand. By the way what pilot do you see with the F2 command on the key board?<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tolwyn.com:
I'm on the opposite side of the fence. I would NOT want to see a false avatar flying my plane.

It gets in the way and is too static for my taste. I can use my imagination to "pretend" that *I* am in the cockpit, not some artificial limb, etc.

Besides there's racial issues, too. What if I'm black and they choose to put a caucasion pilot in there?

Just takes away from a great many things in my opinion. "Hardcodes" something that you can fill in with your own imagination.

Not to mention the added polygons. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

k5054
10-12-2004, 11:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> By the way what pilot do you see with the F2 command on the key board? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

F2 doesn't always show the pilot. ctrl-e is the 'see pilot' command.

VW-IceFire
10-12-2004, 05:14 PM
I like it the way it is. While you are playing the part of the pilot...you really don't see yourself.

I can live with this inconsitency...it lets you become part of the avatar. I'm sitting infront of my computer but I'm projecting my conciousness into that space in the cockpit.

IAMTA
10-13-2004, 06:57 PM
Answering a few of your questions

The question concerning €œstatic arms€. The stick and pedals move so why shouldn€t the arms and legs show motion?

Also you do not need a €œunique pilot€ for each plane. Just use a common colored flight suite for all. (All you will see is elbow to hand and thigh to knee)

The question about the €œpilot blocking more instruments€ may be true in the €œnormal€ view. What needs to be developed is when you €œzoom€ in on the instrument panel all you see are the gages. This is a programming issue that can happen and does quit well in other simulations.

A question concerning the €œpolygon count€ is valid. But considering the processors and video cards we have today this should not be a problem.

Side notes.
Programming something like this is a challenge but I am sure U.B.I, if they are willing, can accomplish such changes.

More comments please€¦€¦..



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IAMTA:
You put gloves on the hands. Problem solved.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tolwyn.com:
I'm on the opposite side of the fence. I would NOT want to see a false avatar flying my plane.

It gets in the way and is too static for my taste. I can use my imagination to "pretend" that *I* am in the cockpit, not some artificial limb, etc.

Besides there's racial issues, too. What if I'm black and they choose to put a caucasion pilot in there?

Just takes away from a great many things in my opinion. "Hardcodes" something that you can fill in with your own imagination.

Not to mention the added polygons. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

cavver
10-14-2004, 08:11 AM
I heard that Oleg is complaining that he implemented all the features that can be imagined to be in a simulator. Great idea IAMTA - he MUST implement the pilot - you are right , my gaming experience is miserable if i cannot see the boody pilot.



Serios now - of all things to be done in il2 , YOU WANT A PILOT ? Geez , for up 100000$ and it will be done :P.

Flatlander1961
10-14-2004, 10:57 AM
WHy bother animating stick movement if your not gonna show hand, feet etc. I dont think a few more polys is a big issue. And what instuments do you need to see below the flight controls?
I like this sim and the only immersion factor missing is not seeing a body holding the controls.
As far as adding this, I doubt adding arms and legs would be a big deal, just add them to the rudder /stick/ throttle graphics you have now.
Probably take a good artist a couple hours in Photoshop.

Flakwalker
10-14-2004, 11:46 AM
I like the current system, whats about if you fly a US plane on the Russian side?, there will be needed two cockpit models for the different uniforms.

gates123
10-15-2004, 05:02 PM
Much rather see Oleg work on more flyables. Theres other stuff that pertains to playability compared to this. Plus in the end it would just bog down most peoples systems and adds nothing to actual gameplay. Would hate to see some cgi arms and hands get in the way of my 190 trim indicator. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

Atomic_Marten
10-15-2004, 06:18 PM
That is a good idea. I would like to have that in game (better if combined with a little red paint on hands and stuff when pilot get hit-most certainly will never happen http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif ).

But that also must be presented with an option to turn that ghost-pilot on-off so everyone could be happy (and we would easily familiarise ourselves to airplane gauges and stuff in cockpit).

BTW, in He111 there is one crew member visible from the pilot position already.

Longjocks
10-15-2004, 09:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IAMTA:
The question concerning €œstatic arms€. The stick and pedals move so why shouldn€t the arms and legs show motion? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The issue here is that it would be a separate model to animate. For real 3D, a pilot would have to be animated differently for each plane as the controls are in a different place and have differently angles grips. I'll add to this below...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IAMTA:
Also you do not need a €œunique pilot€ for each plane. Just use a common colored flight suite for all. (All you will see is elbow to hand and thigh to knee) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What was meant by a unique pilot is related to what I just said. Each plane's pilot would need to be shaped differently with hands, feet AND body (yes, remember that you can look straight down at your seat in IL-2... funny to see floating limbs http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) in different positions. Having a quasi ragdoll pilot could overcome this by employing a system that 'hooked' his limbs to specific locations in a given cockpit, but this would require new code and modelling for both the pilot and cockpit. Code, that I might add, only takes up CPU cycles.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IAMTA:
The question about the €œpilot blocking more instruments€ may be true in the €œnormal€ view. What needs to be developed is when you €œzoom€ in on the instrument panel all you see are the gages. This is a programming issue that can happen and does quit well in other simulations. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think you'll find that there is already a zoom. But zoom will not fix the real issue. The issue with a pilot blocking instruments is different to real life. A RL pilot can shift his position or simply move an arm that's in the way. Unless you want to add ALT-CTRL-R to move the pilot's arm out of the way then it seems a little too much.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IAMTA:
Side notes.
Programming something like this is a challenge but I am sure U.B.I, if they are willing, can accomplish such changes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Technically I doubt Ubi could at all. It's in the hands of 1C. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif But there's a fairly common theme to most games... program only what you need. Even if pilot models were seriously considered (and they probably have been), as a developer you have to ask if the gains out-weigh the work and costs involved in doing it. A simple poll could answer that for those in the online part of the IL-2 community.

Also, for the full effect of immersion you would need your pilot to replicate every command you give. This would not only be a nightmare to animate but also make everything 'laggy'. What I mean by this is if you need to say... you are in a fight and need to quickly lower combat flaps... you need to wait for the animation to play. Add this time to the time it may have already taken to move your hand to the keyboard in the fisrt place and you could lose the initiative.

The above is an extreme example. It is however something that would come up in the next step of pilot model evolution and can only be solved on the day we're all wearing 3D bodysuits and have 3D goggles for our games.

DuxCorvan
10-16-2004, 03:12 PM
I like it as it is. I don't want the 'crash dummies' of the externals to put their a$$es in my seat.

As for the 'racial issues', don't forget the crews are visible from externals, so they're unavoidable -unless you skin the pilot. Anyway, it would be pretty weird to see a III Reich Luftwaffe He 111 commanded by a crew of non-caucasian men. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif Hitler hears it and Goering has to buy a ticket for a ride in Hess's 110 to Britain.

Unfortunately, those racial issues were part of the real thing. Only USAAF allowed multirracial crews in the squads, but they were a few and were segregated.

It would be nice to have a Tuskegee Airmen campaign in FB/PF, tho.

Atomic_Marten
10-17-2004, 08:25 AM
Soviets have maybe the most advanced air force as far as that matters concerned (by including non-conventional white male pilots). As far as I know they even let woman to fly airplanes (they do not have same privileges as man but...).

Some of them are quite good at disabling "fascist" planes (Budanova over 20 enemy a/c, Litvyak 11 personal victories...).

Flatlander1961
10-18-2004, 02:25 PM
If you want to talk immersion than we should have a fully clickable pit like in Falcon 4.
Using keyboard commands as we have it now is not "immersive". You dont need to animate the guy in the pit clicking switchs unless you want to make the pit clickable.
Fact remains still that the animations are good for throttle and stick but they kind of look fake/empty without the proper body parts moving them.
And concerning aircraft I think we have plenty now. A simulated body in the pit is all that is lacking!

clint-ruin
10-18-2004, 02:47 PM
Don't cover up beautiful german engineering with useless fleshy lumps. Pfft.

:&gt;

Philipscdrw
10-19-2004, 05:17 AM
This is a stupid idea which most people here are opposed to and which would take up lots of time for 1C. Time which could be better spent adding more content and fixing real issues.

Flatlander1961
10-19-2004, 05:49 AM
This IS the kind of content lacking. Open your eyes and look down in the pit ...what do you see NOTHING but an EMPTY seat. I dont think adding a figure would be to difficult for oleg is probably as simple as adding arms to the stick,rudder etc. Childs plays for a professional. And if you ask me the content is fine we dont need anymore flyable planes theres to many know. Why bother animating control movement if your not gonna show someone moving the GD controls?? I love this game but thats all it is really lacking not flyable planes its a little overboard with the flyables if you ask me almost OCD.

Skycat_2
10-19-2004, 05:04 PM
Seriously, now what would be the point in modelling arms, legs, and a lap? So you can admire the fine stitching on the boots?

One of the endearing features of the IL-2/FB/AEP/PF cockpits is that you get to see what the cockpits looked like in the real machines. The cockpits are, in a way, virtual museum pieces because you get to see what the rudder pedals and stick column look like, and what kind of controls and guages are placed under the pilot and in front of the seat. If you try to model legs and hands, then you block the view to these instruments and controls ... this would be dissatisfying to many WWII aircraft enthusiasts.

Conversely, putting the legs, hands and feet into the cockpit would add very little to the gameplay because most of the time the player is looking up and away from the seat, floor and rudder pedals. To me, at least, flying wouldn't feel 'more real' if I see a giant mitten on the flight stick on screen. I'm too busy watching other things outside the plane to really ponder why there isn't a pair of virtual size 10s stomping the pedals for me on the screen.

I truly believe that those players who are 'bothered' by not having fake knees and boot laces and Luftwaffe belt buckles in view when looking around the pit are in the minority. Even if they are not, and this feature is actually widely hoped for, is the time and energy required to add humanoid features to every single cockpit a worthwhile endeavor? Will it cause thousands or millions more copies to be sold? Do scores of potential buyers currently look at screenshots and decide the lack of virtual limbs is the deal breaker for them?

Junnun
10-20-2004, 02:18 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
Good idea!! Then we can forgotten Hud messages.
My finger could display what gauges need attention(heat, oil,casoline etc..)
Of cource ghost pilot can turn on/off at difficulty settings. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif