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View Full Version : i want realism take away delay of trim and put it in the stick



raaaid
01-20-2008, 06:38 AM
what are you gonna move faster the trim wheel that is servoasisted by dynamic force of wind and oposes a force of grams or a stick that is not servoasisted and can opose a force of hundreds of kg

the no understanding of the comunity of how a trim is servoasisted lead to consider bat turns a cheat when pilots like marseille used elevator trim at all times in order to not get tired, makes sense:

the faster you go the easiest it is to operate elevator trim and the more difficult it is to move stick

Blood_Splat
01-20-2008, 06:43 AM
BAT TURNS!

SeaFireLIV
01-20-2008, 06:56 AM
Jumping on Copperhead311th`s coat tails is not clever, Raaaiiid.

MEGILE
01-20-2008, 06:59 AM
you still CAN increase your turn rate by winding up the trim... it's just now the trim doesn't respond as fast.

There is nothing to stop you from winding it up before entering the turn.

AFAIK The action of trimming was slowed, because it takes time to trim in reality.

raaaid
01-20-2008, 07:27 AM
yes but i think it should work as this:

at 0 speed stick should move faster than trim but at maximum speed trim should move faster than stick

doesnt it make sense and be more realistic?

buzzsaw1939
01-20-2008, 08:09 AM
If your trying to say, trim pressure is less than stick pressure, your right!

I've never heard of a gameing stick that pressure changes with speed, so it dosen't really matter!

M_Gunz
01-20-2008, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by raaaid:
what are you gonna move faster the trim wheel that is servoasisted by dynamic force of wind and oposes a force of grams or a stick that is not servoasisted and can opose a force of hundreds of kg

the no understanding of the comunity of how a trim is servoasisted lead to consider bat turns a cheat when pilots like marseille used elevator trim at all times in order to not get tired, makes sense:

the faster you go the easiest it is to operate elevator trim and the more difficult it is to move stick

No trim is servo assisted by any wind. Back pressure on the tab only tends to increase the
friction on trim. Try loosening a bolt that's being pulled on as opposed to not and you will
maybe learn something, but I won't hold my breath waiting.

Real trim even powered trim with motors takes time. If it was quick it wouldn't stay in place
and it'd be too hard to make fine adjustments. If it was as fast as you can move a stick or
button-click instant then a lot of planes would have crashed long ago. It is SLOW for good
reasons.

Petrosky
01-20-2008, 01:14 PM
Fly a Spit

they have flap trim in game
that wasn't put on real plane

Outlaw---
01-20-2008, 05:04 PM
Mechanical drive trim wheels are GEARED SLOW. End of story. No more discussion necessary.

--Outlaw.

Skoshi Tiger
01-20-2008, 05:23 PM
Now I've got my trim mapped to a ten turn rotary pot. Now because the amount of work I have to do turning the pot I don't actually notice the delay. It all feels quite natural ( I think it is 5 turn(?) for full motion of the trim in a C152).

I think the problem is that people were mapping their trim to a slider where they can go from full nose down to full nose up trim in a second. This is not very real and needs the delay.

roybaty
01-20-2008, 06:22 PM
Trim on the slider, sometimes I miss RayBanJockey http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Airmail109
01-20-2008, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by roybaty:
Trim on the slider, sometimes I miss RayBanJockey http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I think hes Raaid

Waldo.Pepper
01-20-2008, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by Skoshi Tiger:
Now I've got my trim mapped to a ten turn rotary pot. Now because the amount of work I have to do turning the pot I don't actually notice the delay. It all feels quite natural ( I think it is 5 turn(?) for full motion of the trim in a C152).

I think the problem is that people were mapping their trim to a slider where they can go from full nose down to full nose up trim in a second. This is not very real and needs the delay.

I have all three trims axis' (axises? axi? WTF!) mounted on rotaries as well. I don't notice any delay. In fact it is so immediate and at times so sensitive that for two of them I have resorted to FoolTrottel's EXCELLENT EXCELLENT EXCELLENT sticks utility to tone the effect down.

raaaid
01-21-2008, 06:14 AM
one question:

is it true that elevator trim wheel offers a resistance of grams to move and stick of hundreds of kg at high speeds?

im thinking of servotabs when asking this question

M_Gunz
01-21-2008, 06:37 AM
Low resistance at the PILOT end, high resistance at the CONTROL SURFACE end.
Pilot must move the trim wheel FAR to make a SMALL CHANGE in trim tab or stabilizer movement.

Raaaid, do you know what a LEVER is? Pilot has the long end, trim tab has the very short.
Pilot must move his end a lot to make change at the tab. With a long lever you can hold
100's of kg with very small pressure.

If I balance 1g against 1kg the the lever arm for the 1g must be 1000x as long as the 1kg end.
And if I move the 1g end 1m then the 1kg end moves 1mm. The advantage is to the end with the
longer distance to center. At the long end just one more gram will balance another whole
kilo, at the short end it takes a whole kilo to put one more gram of force to the long end.

And that is a straight lever only where friction is not much of a factor.

Trim is turn of a screw, the lever is the threads of the screw and the advantage is in how
fine the angle of the threads is. The angle is VERY fine, the force put upon the screw just
makes more friction than turning force at the control surface end. Only the pilot has the
advantage to turn the screw, his leverage is far beyond the friction since he has effectively
the long end. You have used threaded bolts before?

Outlaw---
01-21-2008, 07:02 AM
Originally posted by raaaid:
the faster you go the easiest it is to operate elevator trim and the more difficult it is to move stick

Incorrect, for the most part. In general, BOTH get heavier as speed increases, however, the gearing in the trim linkage makes it easy enough to turn the trim wheel at all speeds.

The delay in the trim is there b/c it takes multiple turns of the trim wheel to go from full down to full up. In reality, in general (there are, of course, exceptions), you can only turn the wheel a small amount each time due to the physical arrangement so it takes time to turn the wheel from lock-to-lock. That is the delay that is in the game.

Pulling on the stick has no such limitation as the throw is fairly small. As long as you are strong enough, IT IS FASTER TO PULL ON THE STICK THAN IT IS TO TURN THE TRIM WHEEL LARGE AMOUNTS. Note that I said FASTER, not easier. If you aren't strong enough to overcome the stick forces, then obviously it won't be faster.

This has all been explained in one of your previous threads. Why are you bringing it up again?

--Outlaw.

roybaty
01-21-2008, 07:58 AM
I've had my suspicions http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



Originally posted by Aimail101:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by roybaty:
Trim on the slider, sometimes I miss RayBanJockey http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I think hes Raaid </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

raaaid
01-21-2008, 02:27 PM
i know how a pulley multiplies force but you got it wrong

if the only reason trimm offers less resistance is because it acts like a pulley how do you explain big planes that use servotabs:

serbotabs: when the forces on the stick are so great the pilot cant handle them the stick is linked directly to the trim tabs being the forces needed much minor, thats why they are called servotabs the are tabs and they are servoassited by the wind

in other words nazi enginnears were stupid all they needed to beat heavy elevators on 109 was to use servotabs, but they were discovered later and used in aerobatic and heavy aircraft

so again if the trim is servoasisted and the stick not which should move faster(ever parking a no servo car?)

Outlaw---
01-21-2008, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by raaaid:
i know how a pulley multiplies force but you got it wrong


No I didn't. If you disagree, post the free body diagram that shows how the trim tab is assisted by anything other than mechanical advantage of the gearing and how increased speed will decrease the force required to move it. Even the "stupidest" GERMAN engineer could draw a free body diagram, where's yours?

Let me reiterate, calling people that designed and mass produced some of the most technologically advanced aircraft for the time stupid, JUST SHOWS HOW STUPID YOU ARE.

Learn what a servo tab does and how it works before posting your asinine drivel. A servo tab HAS NOTHING IN COMMON WITH THE POWER STEERING ON A CAR.

Also, AS WAS SHOWN IN YOUR PREVIOUS THREAD ON THIS SUBJECT, THE 109 DOES NOT HAVE TRIM TABS ON THE ELEVATOR.

Putting delay on the stick in the game is, by far, the most idiotic concept anyone has ever posted. Short of reaction time, THERE IS NO DELAY IN THE AMOUNT OF FORCE (whether in reality or not) THE PILOT CAN PUT ON THE STICK. The game already models stick forces, end of story.

--Outlaw.

crucislancer
01-21-2008, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by Outlaw---:
This has all been explained in one of your previous threads. Why are you bringing it up again?

Because it's Raaaid. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

raaaid
01-21-2008, 04:06 PM
nananana i was right on my thread that linking elevator trim tabs with the stick would lighten the controls on the 109 and you were wrong

nananana http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

M_Gunz
01-21-2008, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by raaaid:
serbotabs: when the forces on the stick are so great the pilot cant handle them the stick is linked directly to the trim tabs being the forces needed much minor, thats why they are called servotabs the are tabs and they are servoassited by the wind

They are moved by electric motors.

Screwjacks are not like pulleys, they don't work backwards at all. Trim once set does not
wind back out when you let go of the wheel. Trim is not pulleys and powered servos are not
servoassisted by any wind.
Big jets also have enormous amounts of power on tap; electric and bleed air more than the
power of many WWII fighters. No DUH they can run servos that WWII fighters could not.

I'm glad it's easy to see how cracked you are. Otherwise someone might put you in a position
to make decisions that would screw other people.

raaaid
01-22-2008, 04:34 AM
this has been discussed before ask outlaw

i said id linked trimtabs directly with stick to solve heaviness on the stick on 109

it was pointed out by several people this was done in several aircraft and in the end he shook his head in shame

an example of this are aerobatic planes where the stick is linked to the elevator and to the trim tabs of the elevator, it acts like a servo

raaaid
01-22-2008, 04:38 AM
this is how easily im cracked:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servo_tab
Servo tabs move in the opposite direction of the control surface. The tab has a leverage advantage, being located closer to the trailing edge of the surface and thus can lever the control surface in the opposite direction. This has the effect of reducing the control force required by the pilot to move the controls

Capt.LoneRanger
01-22-2008, 04:50 AM
And of course you also still think these tiny little trim-tabs can increase turnrate and work when the elevators effect is limited due to compression in reality?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

raaaid
01-22-2008, 05:05 AM
i think you could get away from compressibility on a dive with the elevator trim

applying a force on the trim of 1 kg could be equivalent to aplying a 1000 kg on the stick

i dont want to ignore the comment on servotabs using electric motors by gunz

my link in the wikipedia proves this is a made up lie, probaly with bad intention seein how the lie continued saying im cracked and dangerous to people

Outlaw---
01-22-2008, 05:07 AM
Originally posted by raaaid:
nananana i was right on my thread that linking elevator trim tabs with the stick would lighten the controls on the 109 and you were wrong

nananana http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

FIRST OFF, THE 109 DOES NOT HAVE TRIM TABS. Why do you continue to state that it does? Please answer this question in your next post.

Second, nowhere did I EVER state that the above CONCEPT was not true. In fact, I AGREED WITH YOU ON THAT STATEMENT. However, in your original thread you said that the STICK SHOULD BE CONNECTED TO THE TRIM CONTROLS AND NOT THE ELEVATOR. Such a configuration was tried on a P-47 just after WW-II AND IT WAS A FAILURE!!! Your previous thread has all the links in it.


Originally posted by raaaid:
Servo tabs move in the opposite direction of the control surface. The tab has a leverage advantage, being located closer to the trailing edge of the surface and thus can lever the control surface in the opposite direction. This has the effect of reducing the control force required by the pilot to move the controls

The above statement does NOT MEAN THAT THE MOVEMENT OF THE TRIM TAB IS ASSISTED BY THE WIND. It means that the AERODYNAMIC FORCE CREATED BY THE TRIM TAB EXERTS A LARGE MOMENT ON THE ELEVATOR B/C IT IS A LONG WAY FROM THE CENTER OF ROTATION.

You are wrong AGAIN. Why won't you show the free body diagram of the forces on the trim tab to PROVE you are right? Please answer this question also.


Originally posted by M_Gunz:
They are moved by electric motors.

Not always. The term servo tab does not always imply that what we call a servo today is being used.


Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Screwjacks are not like pulleys, they don't work backwards at all. Trim once set does not
wind back out when you let go of the wheel. Trim is not pulleys and powered servos are not
servoassisted by any wind.

In general, WW-II fighters had a trim wheel which was connected via sprocket/chain to the trim linkages in the tail. That's the pulley system I was referring to.

buzzsaw1939
01-22-2008, 05:13 AM
Your not wrong Raaaid,...your just not looking at the whole picture, theres a lot more to it.

At least your trying to learn. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Outlaw---
01-22-2008, 05:16 AM
Originally posted by raaaid:
i think you could get away from compressibility on a dive with the elevator trim


Why do you believe this? COMPRESSIBILITY IS NOT SIMPLY HEAVY ELEVATOR FORCES DUE TO HIGH SPEED AIR FLOW CAUSING EXCESSIVE RESISTANCE TO THE MOVEMENT OF THE ELEVATOR. It's caused by SHOCK WAVES forming forward of the elevator.


Originally posted by raaaid:
applying a force on the trim of 1 kg could be equivalent to aplying a 1000 kg on the stick


Which would only BREAK SOMETHING ON THE AIRCRAFT. The elevator would still not move very much.


Originally posted by raaaid:
i dont want to ignore the comment on servotabs using electric motors by gunz


You should, because only ONE fighter deployed in WW-II had trim actuated by an electric motor. His comments apply to modern day jets, not WW-II fighters.



Originally posted by raaaid:
my link in the wikipedia proves this is a made up lie, probaly with bad intention seein how the lie continued saying im cracked and dangerous to people

That link PROVES THAT YOU ARE WRONG. You are misunderstanding it.

--Outlaw.

Outlaw---
01-22-2008, 05:20 AM
Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Your not wrong Raaaid,...your just not looking at the whole picture, theres a lot more to it.

At least your trying to learn. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

So you agree that full lock-to-lock trim should be available with no force limitations and that there should be a delay between movement of the physical controller and the force being applied in the game?

I disagree that he's trying to learn. He has done everything BUT learn. He ignores everything he doesn't understand and just regurgitates the same garbage over and over.

--Outlaw.

raaaid
01-22-2008, 05:30 AM
well when i fly the 109 in the game i use elevator trim so it must have tabs

so you agree for whatever reason operating tabs requires less force than operating the whole surface it can go from 1kg on the trim to 100 kg on the stick

then which should move faster?

is the no understanding by almost the whole community that using tabs reduces the force required on the control which lead to the suppresion of its funtionality

you are an hipocrit you know trim is easier to operate than stick because it requires less force but you are afraid than reality doesnt match your style

raaaid
01-22-2008, 05:41 AM
Tony Levier described compressibility as, "It resembled a giant phantom hand that seized the plane and sometimes shook it out of the pilot's control." George Gray wrote in a history of the NACA, "The behavior was new to pilots, terrifying, baffling. Several men, in putting this two-engine fighter through its diving maneuvers, underwent the experience: A sudden violent buffeting of the tail accompanied by a lunging and threshing about of the place, as though it were trying to free itself on invisible bonds, and then the maddening immobility of the controls, the refusal of the elevators to respond to the stick." Use of elevator trim would sometimes bring the P-38 out of a dive before destruction.

http://www.airplanecafe.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-367.html

M_Gunz
01-22-2008, 05:42 AM
Wikipedia, the online encyclopedia where anyone can post as an authority.

Raaid, did you read the discussion?
Do you have any idea how SLOW what you are talking about works?
NO or you wouldn't bother.

Sure it is possible to use a mechanical leverage to put small forces to move large ones
BUT when you do so the speed decreases in direct relation to the advantage employed.

You want to play games as usual pitting a neat but not universally applied mechanism for
General Aviation planes against the needs of Fighter Aircraft then go ahead and do like
you always do -- take some of the facts and construct your own reality that ignores more
than you've used.

Why should I give a dump about something that is even SLOWER than manual trim and stick?
With true Servo Tabs the stick is only connected to the tabs, read the discussion and no
I did not add that note. BTW, 109 does have tabs that are set on the ground for balance.

raaaid
01-22-2008, 05:52 AM
here a free body diagram:

move stick 1 m with a resistance of 100kg=100kg*m

move wheel 1 m with a resistance of 1 kg = 1 kg*m

it should take 100 times more time move the stick than move the trim with the same force

if you dont see it make a scheme

raaaid
01-22-2008, 05:54 AM
BTW, 109 does have tabs that are set on the ground for balance.

we arte talking elevator tabs here no aleirons http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

M_Gunz
01-22-2008, 05:56 AM
Originally posted by raaaid:
well when i fly the 109 in the game i use elevator trim so it must have tabs

so you agree for whatever reason operating tabs requires less force than operating the whole surface it can go from 1kg on the trim to 100 kg on the stick

then which should move faster?

And there you make your usual mistake regardless of explanations given to you.

You don't understand levers then maybe you have driven stick shift car or a motorcycle?
LOW GEAR has more leverage for the engine but HIGH GEAR lets you go faster.

If I lift 100kg with a short crowbar then it takes me more effort than with a crowbar twice
as long BUT I can move the shorter crowbar quicker.

With LEVERS, the more advantage you gain the farther you have to move the long end, the more
turns of the crank or screw you need to get the same end result.

It is NOT "the less force the faster" in the REAL WORLD. That only applies in Cartoons and
"Let's Pretend".


is the no understanding by almost the whole community that using tabs reduces the force required on the control which lead to the suppresion of its funtionality

you are an hipocrit you know trim is easier to operate than stick because it requires less force but you are afraid than reality doesnt match your style

You are ignorant that trim in one direction limits movement in the other and that fighters
do need at times to go from one to the other much more quickly than the General Aviation
example that says nothing about how fast the surfaces move -- YOU ADDED THAT YOURSELF.

Your thinking is like a car with one or two wheels on the road and the others in the ditch.
It goes nowhere regardless of how much you point at the wheel still on the road.

Outlaw---
01-22-2008, 05:58 AM
Originally posted by raaaid:
well when i fly the 109 in the game i use elevator trim so it must have tabs


The 109 DOES NOT HAVE ELEVATOR TRIM TABS AT ALL!!!!

If you dispute this, you only show your total and complete ignorance and total and complete lack of wanting to understand ANYTHING.



Originally posted by raaaid:
then which should move faster?


The total and completely obvious answer to anyone who has spent more than 2 minutes researching the subject IS THAT THE STICK WILL MOVE FASTER.

Please explain to me how it is possible to turn a 6" diameter wheel 3 complete turns (this is an assumption, it may be more, may be less) WHEN YOU CAN ONLY TURN IT 1/6 OF A TURN WITH EACH ACTION, faster than you can pull the stick back 3"?

--Outlaw.

Outlaw---
01-22-2008, 06:00 AM
Originally posted by raaaid:
here a free body diagram:

move stick 1 m with a resistance of 100kg=100kg*m

move wheel 1 m with a resistance of 1 kg = 1 kg*m

it should take 100 times more time move the stick than move the trim with the same force

if you dont see it make a scheme

What a JOKE. You don't even know what a free body diagram is.

--Outlaw.

M_Gunz
01-22-2008, 06:08 AM
Originally posted by raaaid:
here a free body diagram:

move stick 1 m with a resistance of 100kg=100kg*m

move wheel 1 m with a resistance of 1 kg = 1 kg*m

I have to turn the trim MANY TIMES to make the same effect as moving the stick only a little.
The force I need to move trim is mostly, almost completely friction. The same friction that
keeps trim from unwinding when I take my hand off the wheel. One whole turn of the trim
wheel has very little effect at all compared to stick movement.


it should take 100 times more time move the stick than move the trim with the same force

If you don't have the strength to move the stick then it takes infinitely longer but if you
have the strength to move the stick then no, the trim is much much slower.


if you dont see it make a scheme

Riiiiight. I can see how much schematics help you -- get confused.
Why don't you go out and DO the things from the drawings?
You will find quickly enough either the truth or you will post that the world is wrong AGAIN!

Have you ever seen a catapult with the throwing arm as the SHORT one?
The SHORT arm has the leverage. Put the weight on the short arm and it is easier to move
so why is the throwing arm the long one Raaaid? It is because the short arm moves SLOWLY.

raaaid
01-22-2008, 06:12 AM
you are slow or you are pretending it theres no in between

in the game i set elevator trim to mouse wheel, take a 109, move mouse wheel and the plane pitches

oh wait its not called tabs but leading edges im an ignorant

servo in latins is servum or slave he does the job for you IT DOESNT ACT AS A LEVERAGE

RegRag1977
01-22-2008, 06:17 AM
Hi guys,

Could someone please show me where is the 109 trim tab in the cockpit? I wonder how it looks like...

Is it true that Marseille used it (if you could explain me how, it would be cool of you)?

Another question is: trimming an AC does take time, i mean you have to turn the tab many times before reaching the max. position. Does a trim tab have a button or someting like that to allow it to come back to neutral position as quickly as in game?

Because the way fighters AND bombers move in IL2 sometimes seems strange to me. But it's just an impression from someone who only knows little about AC... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thanks for answering! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

buzzsaw1939
01-22-2008, 06:20 AM
Originally posted by Outlaw---:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Your not wrong Raaaid,...your just not looking at the whole picture, theres a lot more to it.

At least your trying to learn. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

So you agree that full lock-to-lock trim should be available with no force limitations and that there should be a delay between movement of the physical controller and the force being applied in the game?

I disagree that he's trying to learn. He has done everything BUT learn. He ignores everything he doesn't understand and just regurgitates the same garbage over and over.

--Outlaw. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not agreeing at all!..like I said, he's only looking at part of the picture, (judgeing a book by it's cover) so to speak, I just don't belive any body can learn from the bottom of a pig pile. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

M_Gunz
01-22-2008, 06:35 AM
Originally posted by RegRag1977:
Hi guys,

Could someone please show me where is the 109 trim tab in the cockpit? I wonder how it looks like...

It's that spoked wheel to your left, you can mouse the view over to it. If you change the
elevator trim while viewing such a wheel and it turns in-game then that's the one.

BTW, elevator trim in 109 is not by tab. The whole stabilizer plane moves, hinged at the
rear with the screw jack at the front end. It's really more efficient for aerobatics.


Is it true that Marseille used it (if you could explain me how, it would be cool of you)?

Every fighter pilot worthy of the name kept his plane in trim as he was able. The plane
flies better that way. It was something that is just done as has been written.


Another question is: trimming an AC does take time, i mean you have to turn the tab many times before reaching the max. position. Does a trim tab have a button or someting like that to allow it to come back to neutral position as quickly as in game?

Absolutely NOT. That one 'feature' nulls any 'fix' made by the trim delay. It is UNREAL.
People posted about that back when the quick fix was done, there will be no change and yes
if it was taken out then full trim just to turn would have serious consequences in battle
and any other rapidly changing situations.


Because the way fighters AND bombers move in IL2 sometimes seems strange to me. But it's just an impression from someone who only knows little about AC... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thanks for answering! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

It's a simulation. If they put enough controls on to keep all of that from happening then
we wouldn't have realistic behaviours the other 97% of the time.

M_Gunz
01-22-2008, 06:46 AM
Originally posted by raaaid:
you are slow or you are pretending it theres no in between

in the game i set elevator trim to mouse wheel, take a 109, move mouse wheel and the plane pitches

oh wait its not called tabs but leading edges im an ignorant

servo in latins is servum or slave he does the job for you IT DOESNT ACT AS A LEVERAGE

Oh I see. Old word meanings used in new ways dictate physics.
The link you pointed to does describe a lever device. It even says so.

Here is the part that YOU quoted:
Servo tabs move in the opposite direction of the control surface. The tab has a leverage advantage, being located closer to the trailing edge of the surface and thus can lever the control surface in the opposite direction. This has the effect of reducing the control force required by the pilot to move the controls

Please show me the place there or anywhere in that article where it says anything about how
FAST the control moves.

You add the "faster" part by yourself. The force required is reduced through leverage at the
cost of speed. If anyone in all of history, 1000's of years, could have made things as you
say then life would be completely different and we'd have free energy not to mention no
planet to live on but I'll leave that for you to figure out.

Outlaw---
01-22-2008, 07:28 AM
Originally posted by raaaid:
Use of elevator trim would sometimes bring the P-38 out of a dive before destruction.


The operative word here is SOMETIMES. I am going to hazard a guess that this occurs only if you catch it early in the transition. Once you are deep in the compressibility region forget it. All you could do was hope you reached denser air before the shocks destroyed the aircraft.


--Outlaw.

RegRag1977
01-22-2008, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RegRag1977:
Hi guys,

Could someone please show me where is the 109 trim tab in the cockpit? I wonder how it looks like...

It's that spoked wheel to your left, you can mouse the view over to it. If you change the
elevator trim while viewing such a wheel and it turns in-game then that's the one.

BTW, elevator trim in 109 is not by tab. The whole stabilizer plane moves, hinged at the
rear with the screw jack at the front end. It's really more efficient for aerobatics.


Is it true that Marseille used it (if you could explain me how, it would be cool of you)?

Every fighter pilot worthy of the name kept his plane in trim as he was able. The plane
flies better that way. It was something that is just done as has been written.


Another question is: trimming an AC does take time, i mean you have to turn the tab many times before reaching the max. position. Does a trim tab have a button or someting like that to allow it to come back to neutral position as quickly as in game?

Absolutely NOT. That one 'feature' nulls any 'fix' made by the trim delay. It is UNREAL.
People posted about that back when the quick fix was done, there will be no change and yes
if it was taken out then full trim just to turn would have serious consequences in battle
and any other rapidly changing situations.


Because the way fighters AND bombers move in IL2 sometimes seems strange to me. But it's just an impression from someone who only knows little about AC... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thanks for answering! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

It's a simulation. If they put enough controls on to keep all of that from happening then
we wouldn't have realistic behaviours the other 97% of the time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks a lot M_Gunz http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif