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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 07:47 PM
When should you use one or the other. I've been firing both of them when firing on someone.

P.S. I want all your secrets.

Thanks SMS

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 07:47 PM
When should you use one or the other. I've been firing both of them when firing on someone.

P.S. I want all your secrets.

Thanks SMS

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 07:50 PM
I like cannons a lot better because they are more powerful. However, their spread(inaccuracy) is rather large when keeping your fire constant, but with short bursts you should be fine. Machine guns are good because they barely have any spread when you keep a constant fire, however, they are very weak.

May the wind sweep you off your feet, and guide you to the distant stars.

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 07:57 PM
If you cant miss ie. his filling your screen, open with everything u got.

However a more subtle approach can be used.

Use your machine guns to calculate the deflection on an a/c then when you see it starting to hit fire off ur cannon. Saves ammo and is very effective. Especially for us P39 pilots.

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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 07:58 PM
I do it different than most. I wait until i'm close (very close), and have all guns on my trigger.One blast. Pow! Then i'm off on another plane.

Da Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 07:59 PM
I use machine guns liberally at long ranges, simply because you get more shells for them. More for psychological effect than anything else, although the .50s retain some of their effect at long range.

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 08:20 PM
I use the P-39 cannon as a finishing shot or as a sniper rifle either before they see me or as they're squirming. I try to use the MGs on the nimble targets, to wear them down. Holes in a wing tend to slow a nimble plane down and make them less maneuverable. Hence making it easier to hit with that big 37mm.

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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 08:44 PM
The way IL2 is modeled means that cannons make a big recoil while machine guns make little recoil.

The recoil may be similiar to real life--i read once about an american ace who said that in tight turns firing the machine guns in a mustang would cause the plane to stall (!?).

If the target is close whereby i only have to use a little bit of deflection, i use machine guns...about 100 meters away. If it is very close...like 50 or so meters where i have to use no deflection then i'll use both at the same time. The recoil of the cannon makes one point in the wrong direction anyway after the first shot...so you have to be real close.

If you really want to learn deflection shooting i suggest you go to
http://www.edimensional.com/services.html

This lets you see in 3D so you can see where your shells are going.

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 10:07 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- I do it different than most. I wait until i'm close
- (very close), and have all guns on my trigger.One
- blast. Pow! Then i'm off on another plane.

Pokryshkin used to do that. In fact he had to do it secretly because he wasn't allowed to alter his airplane. (Tampering with state equipment.) So, he secretly had his crew chief rewire both machine guns and cannon (on his P-39) to a single trigger. Once the success of this setup was discovered many (if not all) of the other pilots in his squadron requested the modification too.

I'm going from memory so I may not be 100% correct, but the information is layed out pretty thoroughly in "Attack of the Airacobras."

Cheers

UN

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 10:17 PM
UnterNeub

I read that book. I was glad to see what I was doing wasn't weird after all. I just don't like having to use a button, and the trigger. Just the trigger is more natural. That was one thing I miss in the Cougar. It had a two stage trigger. I wish CH had one.

Da Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 10:35 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- I do it different than most. I wait until i'm close
- (very close), and have all guns on my trigger.One
- blast. Pow! Then i'm off on another plane.
-
- Da Buzz

That might not be as unusual as you think, i do it as well and ive seen a number of ppl do it too. Only time when i fire machineguns alone is when trying to scare off an enemy on my teammates six.

Cpt.LoneRanger
06-20-2003, 10:56 PM
I'd say using cannons or machineguns is a question of the plane you are using, before the patch is out /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I shot a whole load of 7.92mm ammo at a I16 at a distance of about 20 meters. Every single shot hit - you can't miss at this distance in straight flight. The fuselage, the wings, steering planes, everything. every single 7.92mm round I had with my Bf109G2.

The I16 didn't evade until I fired my last shot, then it broke around, as I stared at it in disbelieve and turned behind me. Since I was following it on it's way home, he didn't have much ammo left. In fact, I only saw his 7.62mm guns fire for a less than 0.5 second-burst. It ripped my rudder off, the whole tail, set my engine on fire, wounded me and the last bullet, hitting my left wing just ripped it off the fuselage.

I tried it the other way round and used the I16 MGs in a mission against bombers and ONLY the MGs. I shot down 6 bombers in a row, damaging 4 others badly.

I usually don't fly German planes, but this was a "little" weird and I'm really waiting for that patch!

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 11:36 PM
The cannon is my favorite, but if a cannon gets jammed, than the whole plane rotates at least 45 degrees. You then have to use short bursts so as not to throw your planes extremely off course. So sometimes the machine guns are better.

===============================
'Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.-Abraham Lincoln

It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it.- Robert E. Lee

Scotland Rules!!!

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Message Edited on 06/20/03 06:37PM by EmpireRuler13

Message Edited on 06/20/0306:38PM by EmpireRuler13

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 12:19 AM
I do that too. I get close... really close...one secund burst with everything and away again. if you do it like that you have a bigger effect and you use less ammo. yes! it is true! those ppl who start to fire from 600 or 500 at a fighter and fire continuously usualy don't do any harm except if they are lucky. they use their ammo and when they are close enough to hit seriously they have nothing left. so...

get close around 160 or something and all guns that's it. i only use single weapons when the target is really easy to hit. means he doesn't move too much like a slow heavy plane when you can use the cannons for a nice shot in the engine or the cockpit.

but let's wait for the patch maybe then the MG will be more effective and you can use it for nice shots too.

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XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 12:53 AM
Another reason to love the Hurricane IIc. You can shred anything with that kind of firepower.

And, just note. MG's do not effect the I-16 or U-2. You have to use cannon to shoot both down because by some glitch, both are invincible unless you kill the pilot.
And i wish the I-16 AI would get fixed.

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 01:06 AM
20mils seem quite weak in fb tho, takes far tooo many hits to bring one down.

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XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 04:04 AM
I noticed something odd today while flying. I was goofing around, and started strafing the ground with cannon fire. I fired a single shot into the ground, and several bullets hit the ground. Is that correct? I always thought that cannon shells were just bigger. I didn't know that they were like shotguns!

===============================
'Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.-Abraham Lincoln

It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it.- Robert E. Lee

Scotland Rules!!!

<img src=http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/projects/globalclassroom/courses/classes/3843f01/group2/Images/ww2_usrecruit2.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 04:19 AM
UnterNeub wrote:
-
- BuzzU wrote:
-- I do it different than most. I wait until i'm close
-- (very close), and have all guns on my trigger.One
-- blast. Pow! Then i'm off on another plane.
-
- Pokryshkin used to do that. In fact he had to do it
- secretly because he wasn't allowed to alter his
- airplane. (Tampering with state equipment.) So, he
- secretly had his crew chief rewire both machine guns
- and cannon (on his P-39) to a single trigger. Once
- the success of this setup was discovered many (if
- not all) of the other pilots in his squadron
- requested the modification too.
-
- I'm going from memory so I may not be 100% correct,
- but the information is layed out pretty thoroughly
- in "Attack of the Airacobras."

Hah! Pokryshkin was using the "one button for all guns" cheat.

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 04:59 AM
today i was playing the experten campaign (got it Friday /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif ) With my 109G-2 in a Jabo mission against some flak. I dive-bombed the target, direct hit bla bla bla. Then the word "fighters 1 o'clock" 3 LaGG's 3 coming our way. Despite half of my schwarm got blasted by the AAA /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
I got in a beautiful "training-like" position behing a LaGG. I managed to get in the same speed as him behind at a distance of about .21, and we stayed there, making circles, for about 5 minutes+/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif I shot 2/3 of my payload of 7.92mm on his tail, and i know this because i saw the ammo counters, and the bastard kept circling/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif Then i decided to go 20mm. 4-5 shots and he went straight down like a killed duck in duck season /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
I have the track for you to see... And also i found a "glitch". After my ammo was on the LaGG's tail, i took the time(in the track) to see his F2 view. NOT A SINGLE HOLE.Not a single hole in the fuselage! OMG /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 05:39 AM
Not all damage is shown in the damage model....dont read too much into this. I prefer the early 109s..infact I would rather have a non cannon loadout in the later 109s.

Tully__
06-22-2003, 07:31 AM
It depends what I'm flying. Two examples:

1. P39: I use the MG to scare the enemy into making a mistake that allows me a sure shot with that big cannon. The cannon doesn't have enough ammo to just blaze away hoping for a hit and I like to conserve it.

2. IL2: I use the cannon as primary weapon (more ammo and higher rate of fire than the P-39) and save the MG for emergency backup if I get caught without any cannon rounds left.

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XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 08:15 AM
I do what he does, and also use the mg's as sort of an idicator when to pound away with my cannon. I use this tactic a lot with the P39.

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fluke39
06-22-2003, 10:12 AM
EmpireRuler13 wrote:
- I noticed something odd today while flying. I was
- goofing around, and started strafing the ground with
- cannon fire. I fired a single shot into the ground,
- and several bullets hit the ground. Is that correct?
- I always thought that cannon shells were just
- bigger. I didn't know that they were like shotguns!
-

MG fire is just like normal bullets
Cannon Shells look like bullets but explode on impact ( hence why so powerful, other than general size of shell) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif




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XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 10:19 AM
UnterNeub wrote:
- Pokryshkin used to do that. In fact he had to do it
- secretly because he wasn't allowed to alter his
- airplane. (Tampering with state equipment.)

Although innovation was one of the central principles
of the Marxist-Lennist doctrines of war. (But like
much of the Stalinist era, words and practice were
very different...). I used to have a copy of the
Maxist-Leninst Principles of War. If I come across them
I'll type them in (but they are probably in some random
box in the loft I won't find for about 5 years!)

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 10:22 AM
Gershy wrote:
- I do that too. I get close... really close...one
- secund burst with everything and away again. if you
- do it like that you have a bigger effect and you use
- less ammo. yes! it is true! those ppl who start to
- fire from 600 or 500 at a fighter and fire
- continuously usualy don't do any harm except if they
- are lucky

If you are flying online, and you are behind someone
on the six of a buddy, and you know that due to the
relative speeds/performances/etc of the aircraft that
you aren't going to get any closer than 500 or 600
then a burst of fire at the enemy plane can be useful.
It won't have a good enough 6 view to know how close
you are, and sometimes it can throw off their aim, or
make them break off. Protecting your buddy is a good
thing, so even though you had no chance of shooting down
the enemy plane, you achieved your goal.

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 10:26 AM
EmpireRuler13 wrote:
- I noticed something odd today while flying. I was
- goofing around, and started strafing the ground with
- cannon fire. I fired a single shot into the ground,
- and several bullets hit the ground. Is that correct?
- I always thought that cannon shells were just
- bigger. I didn't know that they were like shotguns!
-
-
-
- Just a simplistic model of firing into the ground.

Cannon shells are not like shotgun shells (and even shotguns do not only use pellet ammunition, they can use slugs)

Cannons use shells, but not like a shotgun's.

Machine guns use cartridges. US fighter aircraft of the time used a 50/50 mix of armor piercing and incendiary rounds, with tracers perhaps every 5th cartridge.

Cannons use shells. They are explosive rounds, they are not simply larger caliber bullets.

In some aircraft, the machine gun(s) were used simply as a method of sighting the cannon in combat.

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 11:23 AM
sms380 wrote:
- When should you use one or the other. I've been
- firing both of them when firing on someone.
----------------------------------

Machineguns(tracers) can be very usefull in varius situations.
In a p-39 or 109 with only 2 mg I find it most effective
longrange, to warn a friend with enemy on 6, (with tracers)
or to get a fleeing enemy to turn, and let me cut distance.
, or let a chased enemy know u are still with him,trying to stress him to make mistakes and bleed energy. (Allways short bursts)
Sometimes u can hit enemies at distance, but its pure luck.
and if he hasnt seen u before he will see u scattering your tracers( hope hes not an ace)

For those who use mg:s to test deflection before using cannon. this is quite problematic because mg and cannon
mostly dont have same range,trajectory,rate of fire,or hitting power.
Mg:s can spray many bullets, cannons dont. Also this mostly alerts the enemy. most planes can take a few mg hits
and manouver away. So in my opinion its better to learn how to draw correct deflection and shoot with all guns and cannons directly..... and anyway....even if u use mg:s to test deflection u still wont see if u scored hits, if u dont eeez up on the stick( then u have to do it all over, but with an alert enemy.)

Shoot with all guns at once! = Practice deflection shooting.

read Finnish ace Ilmari Juutilainens book (Double fighter knight)(fin and eng versions) he gives lots of examples and situations.

Happy flying -s-