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arrow80
08-04-2006, 03:30 PM
Is there any chance we will see this one in one of the following add-ons? (maybe Luft 46?). Any news on this?

HayateAce
08-04-2006, 05:04 PM
Just have some blue players come in here and start crying about the Tempest. Oleg will promptly add your 11Lbs and then some.

FritzGryphon
08-04-2006, 06:04 PM
Why add 11 lbs? Did the pilot gain some weight?

Grey_Mouser67
08-04-2006, 06:32 PM
I hope Oleg does something interesting with the last add-on to make the entire community "want" to buy it...I'm just having a hard time imagining the majority of the community buying it for a bunch a B-1's, Arado and Ta-183....there are those that will as they love those planes but jets just aren't popular online.

A Spit Mk XIV, high boost Tempest, Dora D-11, would grab the attention of many more folks for what would be little investment.

Brain32
08-04-2006, 07:33 PM
Well here it goes a small group of us was working on finding data about Tempest and we were planing to send it to Oleg, BUT we were not as whin...erhm...energetic as some others... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
In the end it seems somebody already did send something to O.M, but we don't know what http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
There are more things about the Tempest than just boost that are strange...
What confuses me most at this "pre-SoW time" is wether O.M. or anybody else will work on additional small FM corrections in IL2 series or is the thing done, we get new planes,maps, etc and that's it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif Should we hope for and report individual FM corrections or not???

Stackhouse25th
08-04-2006, 09:46 PM
im fairly sure a lot of players complain about aircraft performance lacking because they dont know how to manage E, or use it. therefor they complain something is too slow or under powered.

arrow80
08-05-2006, 01:33 AM
I fly mostly blue and I am not whining about th tempest nor have problems flying it, but +11 boost was the most comon one in late 1944. As far as my sources the tempest we have in the game now is the early version of Tempest with engine Sabre IIa. So what I am asking for if there will be a later and more comon version of tempest with Sabre IIb engine at +11lb/sq. in.
There is quite som info in this thread for example(before it gets OT):
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/6131088673/p/2

IAFS_Painter
08-05-2006, 01:36 AM
Nice Tempest page here: http://www.hawkertempest.se/


I'm just having a hard time imagining the majority of the community buying it

Oh, I'll buy it, but I expect I'll ignore those jets.
I fly on-line, and, while there is a grace period, the pressure will be on to have the latest version.

Monty_Thrud
08-05-2006, 05:52 AM
I would very much like to see the +11Lbs Tempest in...does anyone know when it became available?, i seem to think March'44 but could be way off.

I've nearly finished a TAF late '44 missions on the NW Europe map, it would be nice to have her in.

VW-IceFire
08-06-2006, 07:48 AM
This is something I've been wanting to see for historical accuracy reasons. My campaign is actually not as accurate as I would like to make it in terms of planeset because you're flying against FW190D-9 1945 with the extra MW50 boost and the late Bf109K-4s but with a Tempest that is rated for early 1944 and then fall 1944. That means that its best off fighting FW190A-8s in terms of historical timelines.

We have a thread at the CWOS Hawker Haven forum discussing the topic: http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=F...ile=viewtopic&t=8998 (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=8998)

I haven't been able to find out what's happened exactly and if we've sent Oleg information already or we're still gathering it. I'm rather confused right now as to whats happened. I think we'd all appreciate having the higher boost...unfortunately information is sparse on this boost type, despite it being the most common type of boost. There are some general bits of information everyone should know.

1) Early V-1 chasers were moved upto +11lb boost during their operations around D-Day with no significant issues that have been reported.

2) Tempest squadrons operating from the continent during the fall backed off to +9lb boost again.

3) In early 1945 virtually all squadrons used +11lb boost for operations.

4) Unlike other types, the extra boost to +11lb did not require 150 octane fuel. I believe it did for the +13lb with Rotol propeller and the Sabre IIC engine but thats not the rare variant we want.

I would love to see a community action to gather the necessary detail, get it to Oleg, and try and get some resolution on the matter. I really would like to simply see a Tempest Mark V, 1944 and Tempest Mark V, 1945 to match the FW190D-9 over the same period. Then we can tailor scenarios and campaigns appropriately to the timeline being used. The extra performance is most noteworthy below about 8,000 feet where the speed picks up fairly impressively at those altitudes. It becomes almost second to none with only the Mustang Mark III +25lb being faster.

p1ngu666
08-06-2006, 08:24 AM
by the standard of the game, 44 for 11lb, 13lb for 45 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

pdog1
08-06-2006, 10:36 AM
Whats the boost we have now?

MEGILE
08-06-2006, 10:39 AM
+9 lbs

pdog1
08-06-2006, 10:52 AM
is 2 lbs going to make much of a difference?
I don't know to much about the Tiffie but i heard its a beast down low and in the game i can barely keep up with late 109s and 190s leave me in the dust. Its a good bird though i just don't like the small gunsight. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Brain32
08-06-2006, 11:31 AM
Yes 2lbs will make a nice difference. BUT there is more than just the boost, personally extre boost will not impress me much if other things remain unsolved http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
1. Tempest is constantly out of trim with speed change, this ruins E-retention and dive and zoom characteristics, whil it was not so in RL. For unbelievers:
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/tempest/material-command-tempest.pdf
Paragraf f) Trim and Stability:
"There is suprisingly little trim change with speed or power changes in comparision with the Typhoon..."
2. Overheat is exaggerated, you can not fly the bird according to the manual as it overheats too quickly. Considering the max speed obtainable by our 9lbs Tempest I think overheat is a greater problem than actual boost rating.
3. Small things like central dot in the gunsight that is completely invisible in all but closest view.
4. Rear view, but we know we are unfortunetly doomed here, maybe they can move the viewpoint???
As you can see there are bigger problems than just very early boost rating and personally I think the above changes would actually contribute more to the more realistic Tempest than extra boost, although I would like too see both because that would then be a complete Tempest http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

p1ngu666
08-06-2006, 02:26 PM
13lb is about 40% more power http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

some sources give napier engines producing over 3000hp http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Kocur_
08-06-2006, 02:53 PM
I wish I was wrong, but... After a 'new' plane of 1943 was added recently, another one got boost in performance (additional 10kmh or so) to match SL speed of the 'new' one.
Now if 11lb Tempest was added it would be 1944 powerfully armed plane far faster than another very fast plane, not so accidentally related to boosted one of 1943... And who would belive in 640kmh at SL out of 1850PS produced by a radial engine...

Viper2005_
08-06-2006, 03:24 PM
A 40% power increase doesn't seem too plausible.

+9 psi/2700 rpm ~ 2070 bhp at SL.
+11 psi/2700 rpm ~ 2300 bhp at SL.

That's about 10%.

A logical extrapolation to +13 psi would be about another 10%, or 2530 bhp. Of course the IIb could run at 3850 rpm instead of 3700 rpm, so we might expect a futher power increase, of the order of 5%. That comes out at about 2650 bhp. Substantial, but rather a long way from 3000 bhp. Interestingly, the Merlin was run to about this power on the bench in 1944...

Anyway, 2650 bhp would represent 28% more power than the +9 psi Sabre IIa we have at present.

So its power loading would come into line with the Spitfire IX, making it an extremely scary machine.

IMO however, the priority should be sorting out the overheat model for all aircraft (it also hurts the Mustang and many other types on both sides; the P-47 is one of the most realistic aeroplanes in the game in that respect), and possibly providing a Sabre IIb version rated at +11 psi/3850 rpm.

Meanwhile, the Tempest we have is a pretty decent Typhoon substitute, complete with rockets. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Getting back to the subject of the Sabre, great care should be taken with regard to its performance figures, as certain authors seem to believe it could walk on water... Sometimes figures as high as 5000 bhp are thrown around. Often these figures are extrapolations based upon data gathered from running single cylinder test engines on the bench for short durations. Similar performance figures were obtained from a variety of single cylinder test engins, but obviously such performance wasn't viable in an operational context due to the effect upon engine life and reliability, the need for special fuel and the need for ADI.

arrow80
08-06-2006, 03:44 PM
Icefire: I think that there shouldn't be too much of hesitation with sending some materials to Oleg, because we are sadly running out of time here http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

VW-IceFire
08-06-2006, 04:28 PM
Agreed Arrow...unfortunately there isn't alot of material to gather. The most I've seen are a few charts and they are difficult to cross compare because some of them are estimates based on +9lb performance and adjusted for +11lbs of boost.

Keep in mind that the extra couple of pounds is more siginificant in the Sabre II engine than in the Merlin. Its a totally different engine design.

As Brain points out however, there are other problems to solve. The overheat being a little too intense may help a little for overall top speed as well. The viewpoint Alex Voicu wishes to move but I'm not sure if thats possible at this time or not ...or rather how much is involved in making that change.

Regardless...the problems we have are small. The plane is overall very well modeled and performs very close to the numbers that are provided for its setup. Like the Mustang Mark III, FW190A-5 with extra boost, Bf109K-4 with C3, and so forth the Tempest +11lb is icing on the cake. But I like cake http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Viper2005_
08-06-2006, 04:53 PM
VW-IceFire, the basic rules are the same, irrespective of engine configuration. ****** et al showed during the war that piston engine power output is simply a function of the rate of charge consumption and the power required to drive the supercharger.

The mathematics don't care about the number or configuration of cylinders.

VW-IceFire
08-06-2006, 09:13 PM
Still...there has got to be a noteable different when you're dealing with an engine that is significantly bigger and more powerful than the Merlin with the associated tradeoffs.

In the most pessimistic viewpoint it seems that the +11lb boost brings the sea level top speed up by about 15mph. If you go to +13lb of boost...it goes up by roughly 25mph. I realize that there was a different propeller and fuel type involved there as well. But I would say that those are no small differences...an extra 15mph at sea level can make the difference.

At the moment I can pursue but not catch a FW190D-9 if we're both screaming on the engine power. Actually I wasn't screaming...I was at 105%, WEP, pitch at 90% so there was more but not sustainable (even that wasn't sustainable). I'd happily take the extra bit http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Von_Rat
08-07-2006, 01:47 AM
you know i would like a 11lbs tempest, especially with fixed read view.

but i cant help but get the feeling that alot of red flyers want it because they need, perhaps because they lack skills, a plane thats faster than any blue and easily outturns any fw to. heck it even gives 09 a hard time in a turn.

it just seems like their yearning for a plane that will give them almost the cards. but of course if you mention 262 being banned all hell breaks loose.

i get the same feeling when i read spit14 threads to.

HellToupee
08-07-2006, 02:06 AM
they probly want it to be historically correct.

Could be said about anything eg lws wanting a d9 because they lack skills in a a5 or g6... or the mg151 be like saying they wanted a more "correct" cannon because they lacked skills in shooting.

then theres that whining about the a4

WOLFMondo
08-07-2006, 05:17 AM
Originally posted by Stackhouse25th:
im fairly sure a lot of players complain about aircraft performance lacking because they dont know how to manage E, or use it. therefor they complain something is too slow or under powered.

Complaints about the Tempest really are about historical correctness.

The Tempest had 4 production batches and two engines between them. The first two batches used a Sabre IIA and ran at both 9lbs and 11lbs. The last two batches used Sabre IIB's at 11lbs and 13lbs with a different prop. Also, all of the first two batches had there engines upgraded by changing the boost control and some minor parts of the supercharger to IIB standard, which all ran at 11lbs, around winter 1944/45.

So asking for an 11lbs Tempest, for 2nd TAF operations in late 44 and all of 45 is quite relevent and not much to do with piloting ability.

luftluuver
08-07-2006, 05:50 AM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
they probly want it to be historically correct.

Could be said about anything eg lws wanting a d9 because they lack skills in a a5 or g6... or the mg151 be like saying they wanted a more "correct" cannon because they lacked skills in shooting.

then theres that whining about the a4
Forgot to mention the 1.98ata K-4. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

F6_Ace
08-07-2006, 05:54 AM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
they probly want it to be historically correct.

Could be said about anything eg lws wanting a d9 because they lack skills in a a5 or g6... or the mg151 be like saying they wanted a more "correct" cannon because they lacked skills in shooting.

then theres that whining about the a4

Which whining about the A4? The whining about it not having the correct boost which Oleg has already acknowledged and to which he said that it was best to use A5s on maps instead of A4s in order to get the historically correct performance?

A lot of people what historical correctness. That's what most of the whining is about - not getting an 'advantage' for the sake of it. But while they are making the Tempest correct, perhaps they should look at it's turn performance again as it is, arguably, better than what it should be.

Viper2005_
08-07-2006, 06:19 AM
A +11 Tempest V with the Sabre IIb would certainly get my vote on historical grounds.

Von_Rat
08-07-2006, 06:20 AM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
they probly want it to be historically correct.

Could be said about anything eg lws wanting a d9 because they lack skills in a a5 or g6... or the mg151 be like saying they wanted a more "correct" cannon because they lacked skills in shooting.

then theres that whining about the a4


its funny how its always the uber planes that are needed to be historically correct. didnt see many threads for spit1 even bfore bob was annouced. 262 is historically correct,,oh wait its BANNED.


most blue late war are banned anyway. maybe the 11lbs tempest should be to. let it join the spit25.

Von_Rat
08-07-2006, 06:30 AM
Originally posted by F6_Ace:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
they probly want it to be historically correct.

Could be said about anything eg lws wanting a d9 because they lack skills in a a5 or g6... or the mg151 be like saying they wanted a more "correct" cannon because they lacked skills in shooting.

then theres that whining about the a4

Which whining about the A4? The whining about it not having the correct boost which Oleg has already acknowledged and to which he said that it was best to use A5s on maps instead of A4s in order to get the historically correct performance?

A lot of people what historical correctness. That's what most of the whining is about - not getting an 'advantage' for the sake of it. But while they are making the Tempest correct, perhaps they should look at it's turn performance again as it is, arguably, better than what it should be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


so im not the only one who wonders about the tempests turn performence.

has anyone done some testing?

WOLFMondo
08-07-2006, 06:46 AM
In all likely hood the Tempest does have a correct turn rate, but its snap stall is wrong.


Originally posted by Von_Rat:

most blue late war are banned anyway. maybe the 11lbs tempest should be to. let it join the spit25.

Von Rat, the 11lbs Sabre IIB Tempest is the real opponent of the Dora 9. The 9lbs Sabre IIA Tempest probably never met a Dora in the skies over Europe.

Its not like this was a rarity like a P47M or Ta152H that were almost completely out of commission due to technical malfunctions, Tempests running Sabre IIB's at 11lbs and 13lbs made up 2 whole wings of the RAF 2nd TAF from the winter onwards of 44/45.

Von_Rat
08-07-2006, 06:47 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
In all likely hood the Tempest does have a correct turn rate, but its snap stall is wrong.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:

most blue late war are banned anyway. maybe the 11lbs tempest should be to. let it join the spit25.

Von Rat, the 11lbs Sabre IIB Tempest is the real opponent of the Dora 9. The 9lbs Sabre IIA Tempest probably never met a Dora in the skies over Europe.

Its not like this was a rarity like a P47M or Ta152H that were almost completely out of commission due to technical malfunctions, Tempests running Sabre IIB's at 11lbs and 13lbs made up 2 whole wings of the RAF 2nd TAF from the winter onwards of 44/45. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

same can be said about spit25, its banned on many servers.

HellToupee
08-07-2006, 06:49 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F6_Ace:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
they probly want it to be historically correct.

Could be said about anything eg lws wanting a d9 because they lack skills in a a5 or g6... or the mg151 be like saying they wanted a more "correct" cannon because they lacked skills in shooting.

then theres that whining about the a4

Which whining about the A4? The whining about it not having the correct boost which Oleg has already acknowledged and to which he said that it was best to use A5s on maps instead of A4s in order to get the historically correct performance?

A lot of people what historical correctness. That's what most of the whining is about - not getting an 'advantage' for the sake of it. But while they are making the Tempest correct, perhaps they should look at it's turn performance again as it is, arguably, better than what it should be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


so im not the only one who wonders about the tempests turn performence.

has anyone done some testing? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well for things like wingloading i belive its even lower than the 109.




Which whining about the A4? The whining about it not having the correct boost which Oleg has already acknowledged and to which he said that it was best to use A5s on maps instead of A4s in order to get the historically correct performance?

yes much like people asking for a correct tempest, but for the tempest u cant just sub in the next model.

yes 262 is banned but hows about we have historically correct teams then :P


[/quote]
most blue late war are banned anyway. maybe the 11lbs tempest should be to. let it join the spit25.[/quote]

the d9 and a9 is later than the tempest and the spitfire 25.

Von_Rat
08-07-2006, 06:54 AM
i don't know how accurate il2 compare is for turn times, but according to it tempest can outturn late 09s. hmmm can that be correct, didnt know tempest was such a good turner. think its time for some research.



you can have historical numbers, if i get the 262.

stratically lw was very outnumbered, but that wasnt true of every engaugment, the lw could, and did pick its fights. this is a tactical game not stratigic, so stratigic numbers are irrevelant.


if your talking late war it doesnt matter when introduced. you go late war there all in.

JG53Frankyboy
08-07-2006, 06:55 AM
the easiest would be if Maddox would give the ingame Tempest the 11lb performance.

as the Tempest is mostly used in the seconed half 1944+ scenarios/missions

Viper2005_
08-07-2006, 07:22 AM
Red vs Blue arguments are great aren't they?



My airforce was bigger/better than yours!
Was Not!
Was TOO!!


In the context of playing a game however, this sort of thing is pretty pointless. If you go down the realism route, the reds won't have much fun because they'll fly for hundreds of hours without seeing any blue fighters.

The blues won't have any fun because they won't be doing a lot of flying. Most of the hours they do manage to log will be flown in inferior aeroplanes, probably with various snags. They'll spend most of their time trying to avoid action due to crushing red numerical superiority.

Of course there would be the odd relatively even fight. Sometimes the whole blue team would get together and make a maximum effort attack against a weakly defended target.

But for the most part it would be pretty boring for all concerned.

And then there's the issue of pilot experience. Presumably to attain realism, we'd ration experienced pilots so that the red team had a numerical superiority in that regard as well. So many pilots wouldn't be allowed to fly blue even if they wanted to.

You'd end up with a lot of highly experienced, rather bored pilots cruising around in highly boosted Spitfires, Tempests and Mustangs with nothing much to shoot, and a few unfortunate, inexperienced pilots flying around in Bf-109G6s and Fw-190A8s (perhaps with an experienced leader) offering themselves like lambs to the slaughter on perhaps a weekly basis.

The majority of red losses would be inflicted by AAA and accidents.

If that happens to be your idea of fun, great. Create a server and enjoy it. I shan't be joining you because it certainly isn't mine!

Instead, I think that from the perspective of our game we should aim for some degree of balance in order that everybody has fun. That means abandoning certain aspect of historical accuracy, in order that the deciding factor is pilot skill rather than the side on which you fight.

That's why aeroplanes like the +25psi Spitfire and the Me-262 have to be treated with great care. I expect that the boosted Tempest would be in the same class.

HellToupee
08-07-2006, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
i don't know how accurate il2 compare is for turn times, but according to it tempest can outturn late 09s. hmmm can that be correct, didnt know tempest was such a good turner. think its time for some research.



you can have historical numbers, if i get the 262.

stratically lw was very outnumbered, but that wasnt true of every engaugment, the lw could, and did pick its fights. this is a tactical game not stratigic, so stratigic numbers are irrevelant.


if your talking late war it doesnt matter when introduced. you go late war there all in.

no it couldnt pick its fights, it could only pick what attacks to respond to they got beat up landing taking off, everywhere.

Historically me262 wasnt use against fighters as well. Everu body loves correct historical planes but in ur dogfight servers nobodys gona want a historical senario.

And no a tempest does not outturn a 109 in any kind of turn fight, however it does outturn a 109 at many speeds but then so does the 47 and the 190, d9 isnt far behind it in turn and from the few fights vs ta152 ild say its about equal to the temps turn.

p1ngu666
08-07-2006, 08:28 AM
viper some of what ive read suggests the max figures for sabre where lower than it actully was, ie 2200~hp, but it was actully kickin out 2500 for example.

either way, its alot of power http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

imo a 11lb would *abit* better than dora, just like our 9lb is abit worse than dora...

13lb would be for the http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif factor.

stathem
08-07-2006, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
imo a 11lb would *abit* better than dora, just like our 9lb is abit worse than dora...


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif It'd be banned for sure then...

VW-IceFire
08-07-2006, 08:43 AM
RE: Tempest turns...the Tempest turns like the FW190 does in that it turns well at speed and bleeds the energy quickly. In any tests done online where we try and fly Tempest VS other types to see how they behave in a sustained turn the Tempest looses to the Bf109K-4 and all the other late war models. It can keep up for the first turn and then it starts to wallow and becomes very difficult to hold into the turn. The Bf109 just rides the edge on its slats and has no problems.

According to pilots, turns with the FW190D-9 and Tempest were similar, with the D-9 being slightly slower to complete the turn but being able to do it tighter. Again...the tests I've done online seem to stay with this.

I think that surprises most people with the turn is that it does instant turns very well. For a BNZ pilot doing attacks this is perfect. The Tempests larger wings and lower wing loading than the Mustang give it a similar ability but its much easier and quicker to hold it. Many people don't realize but despite the Tempests size its not nearly as heavy as the Mustang, Thunderbolt, or Lightning. Its very much similar to German aircraft for weight and better in overall engine power, with much larger wings than either 109 or 190. This stuff has to count for something.

VW-IceFire
08-07-2006, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
they probly want it to be historically correct.

Could be said about anything eg lws wanting a d9 because they lack skills in a a5 or g6... or the mg151 be like saying they wanted a more "correct" cannon because they lacked skills in shooting.

then theres that whining about the a4


its funny how its always the uber planes that are needed to be historically correct. didnt see many threads for spit1 even bfore bob was annouced. 262 is historically correct,,oh wait its BANNED.


most blue late war are banned anyway. maybe the 11lbs tempest should be to. let it join the spit25. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You must have missed all of the requests for the Mark I a while back. They were squashed as not having any hope for this simulator so they haven't reappeared very often. But there were many requests about a year back before Battle of Britain was started for a proper Mark I Spitfire so we could do battle with the Bf109E series. One third party modeled even set out to create a Mark I or Mark II from Gibbages Mark V model. Again, it was not accepted for inclusion into the sim. Some even asked for at least a Mark Va with the 8 .303 machine guns...but even that was not allowed.

This isn't about needing a more uber aircraft...this is largely about actually having the plane that fought the battles. The Sabre IIA +9lb is a rare aircraft for the Tempest series, seing the least amount of front line service against the Luftwaffe. By far and large the most common version was with a Sabre IIB with +11lbs of boost and seeing the most action between December 1944 and May 1945. If we were asking for the uber version then we'd skip the +11 and stay to hell with that we want the +13lb with Sabre IIC and Rotol Propeller. Then we'd be over 400mph on the deck with all of the other positive attributes of the fighter.

Historically speaking the Tempest setup as it is presently saw little service. I think the +9 usage was probably most felt during the Arnheim operations. Later it was upgraded to +11. The V-1 chasers also operated at +11. Only the early prototypes and for a period during the fall did the plane operate at this low boost setting.

Brain32
08-07-2006, 09:49 AM
1. +11lbs is historical, period.
2. Turn performance is OK, I noticed no wonders, sure I got spanked in a turn a few times flying a 109, but when I analyzed the track "suspect" came at better position and E state, we were not circling he merely matched my turn good enough to get an angle, you know the way you suppose to be able to do to a Spit but you can't http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
3. Dora has a speed bug at about 2000m, Robban75 knows the details*
4. FW's are undermodelled in turn performance in regards to Soviet data, especially Antons*
*-actually belongs to a different thread http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
I know what is a real concern, with the current suicidal UFOSpits, having a fast cannon equipped plane with them could be a problem, but isn't that a completely different issue?
Please guys don't turn this thread into a flame fest, pretty please?

WOLFMondo
08-07-2006, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
In all likely hood the Tempest does have a correct turn rate, but its snap stall is wrong.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:

most blue late war are banned anyway. maybe the 11lbs tempest should be to. let it join the spit25.

Von Rat, the 11lbs Sabre IIB Tempest is the real opponent of the Dora 9. The 9lbs Sabre IIA Tempest probably never met a Dora in the skies over Europe.

Its not like this was a rarity like a P47M or Ta152H that were almost completely out of commission due to technical malfunctions, Tempests running Sabre IIB's at 11lbs and 13lbs made up 2 whole wings of the RAF 2nd TAF from the winter onwards of 44/45. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

same can be said about spit25, its banned on many servers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Spit 25 was a conversion, not the norm. The 11lbs Sabre IIB Tempest was the norm. The last production batch had even more horse power to play with.

Its up to server owners if they want it banned but it would be a bit ridiculous to do so and not kick out something like the Mustang MkIII 25lbs since arguably that was rarer and didn't sit and hold a front line for 5 months over North West Holland and Germany.

Von Rat, you ask for the 262, but in reference to 262 and Tempest combat you really need to read up on how the 262 was employed by the Luftwaffe. They were used as PR planes, not much more, they spent there lived, in pairs or singularly running away from Tempests in to flak screens to report back on the British lines around the Rhein. Realy nothing more than that.

Lets leave the server owners to decide on maps and let those who want this aircraft included, get it included.

Von_Rat
08-07-2006, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
In all likely hood the Tempest does have a correct turn rate, but its snap stall is wrong.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:

most blue late war are banned anyway. maybe the 11lbs tempest should be to. let it join the spit25.

Von Rat, the 11lbs Sabre IIB Tempest is the real opponent of the Dora 9. The 9lbs Sabre IIA Tempest probably never met a Dora in the skies over Europe.

Its not like this was a rarity like a P47M or Ta152H that were almost completely out of commission due to technical malfunctions, Tempests running Sabre IIB's at 11lbs and 13lbs made up 2 whole wings of the RAF 2nd TAF from the winter onwards of 44/45. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

same can be said about spit25, its banned on many servers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Spit 25 was a conversion, not the norm. The 11lbs Sabre IIB Tempest was the norm. The last production batch had even more horse power to play with.

Its up to server owners if they want it banned but it would be a bit ridiculous to do so and not kick out something like the Mustang MkIII 25lbs since arguably that was rarer and didn't sit and hold a front line for 5 months over North West Holland and Germany.

Von Rat, you ask for the 262, but in reference to 262 and Tempest combat you really need to read up on how the 262 was employed by the Luftwaffe. They were used as PR planes, not much more, they spent there lived, in pairs or singularly running away from Tempests in to flak screens to report back on the British lines around the Rhein. Realy nothing more than that.

Lets leave the server owners to decide on maps and let those who want this aircraft included, get it included. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you better read,,,last year of the luftwaffe,,, if you think 262s did nothing but pr, and only operated in pairs.


off the top of my head, it recounts a encounter beteewn 15 me262s and a group of p51s on feb 21st 45. it also has accounts of many other battles 262s fought. 15 262s may not of been anywhere near normal numbers, but they didnt always fly in ones and twos according to the accounts in this book.

Von_Rat
08-07-2006, 10:38 AM
no it couldnt pick its fights, it could only pick what attacks to respond to they got beat up landing taking off, everywhere.
__________________________________________________ ___

yes they could, they werent always outnumbered in tactical situations. you better read some more, i recommend last year of the luftwaffe.



________________________________________________
Historically me262 wasnt use against fighters as well. Everu body loves correct historical planes but in ur dogfight servers nobodys gona want a historical senario.
__________________________________________________ _



off the top of my head, it recounts a encounter beteewn 15 me262s and a group of p51s on feb 21st 45. it also has accounts of many other battles 262s fought.



_________________________________________________
And no a tempest does not outturn a 109 in any kind of turn fight, however it does outturn a 109 at many speeds but then so does the 47 and the 190, d9 isnt far behind it in turn and from the few fights vs ta152 ild say its about equal to the temps turn.
_______________________________________________


the question really shouldnt be whether tempest can turnfight 09, the question should be does it turn to good.


im sorry for messing up the thread, but it still seems that only reason 11 lbs is wanted is so skill lacking red pilots can catch and outturn fws with a 4 cannon plane, thats faster climbs better, outguns, turns better, dives as good or better,,,oh wait fw will still have its roll, what a joke.


have fun, im outta this thread.


btw, let the server decide, is the usual cop out. because reds will boycott 262 servers,, hmmm maybe blue should do same for 11 lbs tempest. it worked with spit25.

anarchy52
08-07-2006, 10:54 AM
Slightly OT: Upon initial release, Tempest could outturn Bf-109G6 even at speed as low as 230km/h which is absurd. I personally demonstrated it to few non believers online, WEP on, flaps down and Tempest gains angles rapidly, 109G6 just does not have the power to keep flying. It did require flying the Tempest at the very edge of performance, but it could be done. Don't know if it was corrected.

That's pretty odd since G6 has wingloading, liftloading and powerloading advantage over Tempest, not to mention the slats which should enable aditional boost in critical AoA while Tempest has "laminar" profile wing which has a downside of providing lower lift at low speed compared to "classic" profile.

I don't know if it's G6 or it's oponents but something just does not feel right, I mean nobody would accept such a poor fighter just for the sake of slightly more powerful arnament (twin 13mm vs 7,92). Such small increase in firepower makes no difference when attacking heavies...

faustnik
08-07-2006, 11:38 AM
The Tempest at +11 boost is not about anyone wanting an uberplane, it's about wanting the a/c at its <span class="ev_code_RED">normal</span> boost rating. How many of us want an Fw190A4 at its normal rating? Well, if you answered "yes" you should want the Tempest at +11 boost, same thing.

p1ngu666
08-07-2006, 12:06 PM
indeed faus http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif , and the a4 is still easily the best plane of its time. tempest isnt http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

so we want a more useful and historic tempest, that happens tobe faster than most of the lw equipment.

funny enuff blue dont have the god given right to top speed like uve had for ages in this game.

oleg didnt make the faster allied stuff, and we also rarely play the time periods where they are faster allied planes.


but it still seems that only reason 11 lbs is wanted is so skill lacking red pilots can catch and outturn fws with a 4 cannon plane, thats faster climbs better, outguns, turns better, dives as good or better,,,oh wait fw will still have its roll, what a joke.

u can say the same for blue pilots. roll reversal plus ull be going against p47/p51/p38 *shrug*

faustnik
08-07-2006, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
indeed faus http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif , and the a4 is still easily the best plane of its time. tempest isnt http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Well, that really isn't relevant at all. Do people want historical accuracy or not?

A fully rated Fw190A4 might scare some Spit pilots but, I would hope the majority would still want to see it included. Same thing with the Tempest, why wouldn't anyone want it? Personally, I don't like fighting Tempests online with a Dora, as the current matchup isn't accurate. The current Tempest should be matched with the Fw190A6/8 and Bf109G6 Late/AS.

Brain32
08-07-2006, 12:42 PM
Yes this is all true and nice, BUT in RL FW190A8 wouldn't accelerate like a pig, be completely deprived of gunsight effectivness, have a porked turn rate etc. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Although I'm all for a +11lbs Tempest there are some things left unresolved...
Pingu just look a bit closer at the situation, speed is all Blue have, manouverbility characteristics are neutered heavily, Red has all manouverbility one can take, but lacks speed. What we have is a historical situation artificially made by incorrect characteristics of the matching-up planes...

F6_Ace
08-07-2006, 12:42 PM
I've always supported historical accuracy being the most important thing over "but this plane does alright according to the server stats" and the 'I want the best plane' attitudes which are just completely ludicrous.

In that respect, I have absolutely no objection to an 11lbs Tempest.

However, can someone tell me why there should be a 11lbs Tempest *before* other modifications that have been asked for over a considerably longer period of time? Cue me complaining about the FW190 view (which will never be corrected, possibly not even in BoB), A4 boost (won't be corrected - "use A5 instead" - which no one ever does as many only see the plane year when adding to maps) and the list goes on and on and on and on and on. And this doesn't just concern LW planes, either.

Sure, correct it..but put it in the *queue* of things to fix; and fix them in some kind of order that correlates to when they were asked for AND how easy they are to sort out.

faustnik
08-07-2006, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by Brain32:
Yes this is all true and nice, BUT in RL FW190A8 wouldn't accelerate like a pig, be completely deprived of gunsight effectivness, have a porked turn rate etc. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Although I'm all for a +11lbs Tempest there are some things left unresolved...
Pingu just look a bit closer at the situation, speed is all Blue have, manouverbility characteristics are neutered heavily, Red has all manouverbility one can take, but lacks speed.

Again, I don't see how this is relevant? The Tempest having a correct boost has nothing to do with the Fw190 FM. You know what I'm saying?

F6_Ace
08-07-2006, 12:54 PM
^ In my view, and with respect to my previous post, it's entirely relevant. Why should the Tempest receive the "correct" boost when another aircraft does have not correct attributes that have been known to be incorrect for a longer period of time and which, arguably, are just as easy to fix?

IMO, it would be ideal if "they" are fixed at the same time as I don't want plane A historically accurate while plane B is not. But that is what will happen if the Tempest is suddenly fixed while old problems are dismissed.

Brain32
08-07-2006, 01:03 PM
Faustnik I'm not talking about including Tempest +11lbs in the game, I'm completely for it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
I'm talking about, how all disscusions of this kind end up like this, and I'm saying that I completely understand negative reactions although I would be screaming of joy to have a +11lbs Tempest http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif And yes you are right that has nothing to do with the correct Tempest boost, but this thread went in different direction already at page 2 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

faustnik
08-07-2006, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by Brain32:
Faustnik I'm not talking about including Tempest +11lbs in the game, I'm completely for it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
I'm talking about, how all disscusions of this kind end up like this, and I'm saying that I completely understand negative reactions although I would be screaming of joy to have a +11lbs Tempest http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif And yes you are right that has nothing to do with the correct Tempest boost, but this thread went in different direction already at page 2 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

I know you are all for it too. Hopefully Oleg will agree with us. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

MEGILE
08-07-2006, 01:38 PM
Why is the focke wulf cluttering this thread.

Go and make a new one, if you want to beat that dead horse some more.


Originally posted by F6_Ace:
^ In my view, and with respect to my previous post, it's entirely relevant. Why should the Tempest receive the "correct" boost when another aircraft does have not correct attributes that have been known to be incorrect for a longer period of time and which, arguably, are just as easy to fix?




Someone get the waaahmbulance, norris has arrived to tell us how Oleg hates blue people, and the Me262 is banned from the internet.

It would be good to have a proper A4, and dead as that issue may be, are you suggesting Oleg stops developing the game until you get 1.42 ATA?
Silly bunny rabbit.


IMO, it would be ideal if "they" are fixed at the same time as I don't want plane A historically accurate while plane B is not. But that is what will happen if the Tempest is suddenly fixed while old problems are dismissed.



The phrase, cut nose off to spite face comes to mind.

If the FW is not fixed.. then the tempest should not.
LOL is not emotive enough to describe how ******ed you just became.

p1ngu666
08-07-2006, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by Megile:
Why is the focke wulf cluttering this thread.

Go and make a new one, if you want to beat that dead horse some more.

musta been a week since the last beating
quick, before the dead horse decomposes and its too late http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

p1ngu666
08-07-2006, 01:49 PM
speed is all Blue have

complete lies.

blue have teamwork too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

faustnik
08-07-2006, 01:53 PM
Can we leave the "red" and "blue" namecalling and gamery out of it. Jezz, it's long past being funny. Honestly, please keep it to the GD and out of ORR.

Kocur_
08-07-2006, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Many people don't realize but despite the Tempests size its not nearly as heavy as the Mustang, Thunderbolt, or Lightning.

Im affraid that remark is very not right in regard to Mustang!

All according to RAF for equal criteria:

Tempest Mk.V tare 9.010lbs, light 9.885, mean 10.700, maximum 11.510.
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/tempest/tempest-v-ads-sabre-IIb.jpg

Mustang Mk.III (P-51B/C)
Tare 7.000, light 7.720, mean 8.450, maximum 9.190
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/mustang-III-ads-7.jpg

Mustang Mk.IV (P-51D)
Tare 7.066lbs, light 7.860, mean 8.540, maximum 9.478.
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/mustang-IV-ads.jpg

p1ngu666
08-07-2006, 02:13 PM
abit heavier than mustang, but lighter than p47and p38 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

arrow80
08-07-2006, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Many people don't realize but despite the Tempests size its not nearly as heavy as the Mustang, Thunderbolt, or Lightning.

Im affraid that remark is very not right in regard to Mustang!

All according to RAF for equal criteria:

Tempest Mk.V tare 9.010lbs, light 9.885, mean 10.700, maximum 11.510.
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/tempest/tempest-v-ads-sabre-IIb.jpg

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Some nice document, that comfirms some performance figures for sabre IIb and +11lb boost of it. Wouldn't be this enough with some other sources for Oleg?

F6_Ace
08-07-2006, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by Megile:
Why is the focke wulf cluttering this thread.

Go and make a new one, if you want to beat that dead horse some more.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by F6_Ace:
^ In my view, and with respect to my previous post, it's entirely relevant. Why should the Tempest receive the "correct" boost when another aircraft does have not correct attributes that have been known to be incorrect for a longer period of time and which, arguably, are just as easy to fix?




Someone get the waaahmbulance, norris has arrived to tell us how Oleg hates blue people, and the Me262 is banned from the internet.

It would be good to have a proper A4, and dead as that issue may be, are you suggesting Oleg stops developing the game until you get 1.42 ATA?
Silly bunny rabbit.


IMO, it would be ideal if "they" are fixed at the same time as I don't want plane A historically accurate while plane B is not. But that is what will happen if the Tempest is suddenly fixed while old problems are dismissed.



The phrase, cut nose off to spite face comes to mind.

If the FW is not fixed.. then the tempest should not.
LOL is not emotive enough to describe how ******ed you just became. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What's up Meg? Getting a little hot under the collar are you not? Mind you, I would if I had to resort to ad homnium rather than answering the argument in hand.

My argument didn't concern red vs blue or, indeed that the FW190 hadn't been fixed but well done for first making out that it should be taken elsewhere then editing your post and turning into a red vs blue thing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Desperate measures indeed.

The FW190 argument is just an example...it could quite easily be why the F6 key hasn't been disabled when there have been numerous requests for it when it's arguably an easier fix than any of the above.

No, the point of my argument is that there are many things that have been unfixed for a long time and that, IMO, there should be some priority given to things as easy to correct as the Tempest boost but which have been around for a lot longer.

I know that's hard for you to understand, but there it is, reiterated, for the poorly educated.

arrow80
08-07-2006, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by F6_Ace:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
Why is the focke wulf cluttering this thread.

Go and make a new one, if you want to beat that dead horse some more.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by F6_Ace:
^ In my view, and with respect to my previous post, it's entirely relevant. Why should the Tempest receive the "correct" boost when another aircraft does have not correct attributes that have been known to be incorrect for a longer period of time and which, arguably, are just as easy to fix?




Someone get the waaahmbulance, norris has arrived to tell us how Oleg hates blue people, and the Me262 is banned from the internet.

It would be good to have a proper A4, and dead as that issue may be, are you suggesting Oleg stops developing the game until you get 1.42 ATA?
Silly bunny rabbit.


IMO, it would be ideal if "they" are fixed at the same time as I don't want plane A historically accurate while plane B is not. But that is what will happen if the Tempest is suddenly fixed while old problems are dismissed.



The phrase, cut nose off to spite face comes to mind.

If the FW is not fixed.. then the tempest should not.
LOL is not emotive enough to describe how ******ed you just became. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What's up Meg? Getting a little hot under the collar are you not? Mind you, I would if I had to resort to ad homnium rather than answering the argument in hand.

My argument didn't concern red vs blue or, indeed that the FW190 hadn't been fixed but well done for first making out that it should be taken elsewhere then editing your post and turning into a red vs blue thing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Desperate measures indeed.

The FW190 argument is just an example...it could quite easily be why the F6 key hasn't been disabled when there have been numerous requests for it when it's arguably an easier fix than any of the above.

No, the point of my argument is that there are many things that have been unfixed for a long time and that, IMO, there should be some priority given to things as easy to correct as the Tempest boost but which have been around for a lot longer.

I know that's hard for you to understand, but there it is, reiterated, for the poorly educated. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
We don't decide about any priority table of corrections, so I'd say it's pointless to solve it, cause it is in Oleg's hands. This thread is about finding and supplying materials for the +11 lb Tempest to him and afterwards it is in his hands not ours. Or do you think there shouldn't be any initiative in the matter of Tempest, just because there are other issues that were already presented and not corrected?

F6_Ace
08-07-2006, 02:34 PM
Nope, not at all. Hence my saying that my preference would be for all planes to be fixed at the same time.

Next question?

EDIT: Anyway, I've made my point regarding priority and I'll leave it at that. Smegile - you wish to carry on with a childish slanging match, PM me.

VW-IceFire
08-07-2006, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Many people don't realize but despite the Tempests size its not nearly as heavy as the Mustang, Thunderbolt, or Lightning.

Im affraid that remark is very not right in regard to Mustang!

All according to RAF for equal criteria:

Tempest Mk.V tare 9.010lbs, light 9.885, mean 10.700, maximum 11.510.
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/tempest/tempest-v-ads-sabre-IIb.jpg

Mustang Mk.III (P-51B/C)
Tare 7.000, light 7.720, mean 8.450, maximum 9.190
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/mustang-III-ads-7.jpg

Mustang Mk.IV (P-51D)
Tare 7.066lbs, light 7.860, mean 8.540, maximum 9.478.
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/mustang-IV-ads.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Going to have to double check that...some of the books I have put the Mustang in at a fair bit heavier. Much larger wings nonetheless...

CUJO_1970
08-07-2006, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
Historically me262 wasnt use against fighters as well.


Complete rubbish.

Many jet aces were aces just on their fighter kills alone in the 262 - Schall, Baer, Eder Nowotny etc etc - they and many more scored multiple kills against fighters.

The assumption that the 262 wasn't used to fight and kill allied fighters is nonsensical.

luftluuver
08-07-2006, 06:50 PM
P-51B/C

basic weight - 7010lb (w/o fuselage tank)
max gross weight - 11300lb

P-51D/K

basic weight - 7635lb
max gross weight - 11600lb

Considering the explicite details given on the pg, I see no reason to doubt the weights give.

ref. Mustang: The Story of the P-51 Mustang
RW Gruenhagen
ISBN 0-668-03912-4

Note the spitperformce weight for the D only has 150gal of fuel. This is 119gal short.

The C/D is also short on its fuel load.

weight(fuel) for the wing tanks (184gal) - 1104lb
weight(fuel) for the fuselage tank (85gal)- 510lb

Grey_Mouser67
08-07-2006, 07:44 PM
Yes one has to be very careful when discussing weights of allied aircraft, particularly the Mustang because of all the extra fuel tanks. Exta fuel for extra long missions. Interceptors didn't need or want that kind of fuel load.

Once tanks are dropped and internal fuel is consumed, the Mustang compares favorably in terms of wing loading to nearly all late war planes except the Spitfire.

Tempest, in normal combat conditions, should be heavier than a Mustang with wing tanks dropped and rear tank 1/2 burned off which was the preferred mode of operation for Mustang pilots.

lrrp22
08-07-2006, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by luftluuver:


Note the spitperformce weight for the D only has 150gal of fuel. This is 119gal short.

The C/D is also short on its fuel load.

weight(fuel) for the wing tanks (184gal) - 1104lb
weight(fuel) for the fuselage tank (85gal)- 510lb

Luft,

That's 150 gallons Imperial, which is full wing tanks and empty fuselage tank. This is the RAF's 'Normal fighter load' from report no. A&AEE/781d part 1. 'Normal fighter' plus 70 gal. Imp. in the fuselage tank is 9,982 lbs.

LRRP

WOLFMondo
08-08-2006, 12:58 AM
Another good thread goneout the window.

Its a reasonable request and takes little extra work for a historically accurate aircraft in its normal configuration and we get all sorts of naysayers ruining this thread. No wonder Oleg doesn't post here anymore. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

luftluuver
08-08-2006, 02:58 AM
Right lrrp. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif Me bad.

VW-IceFire
08-08-2006, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
Another good thread goneout the window.

Its a reasonable request and takes little extra work for a historically accurate aircraft in its normal configuration and we get all sorts of naysayers ruining this thread. No wonder Oleg doesn't post here anymore. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif
Its true...lots of folks who haven't done any research who automatically assume its about uberness on the online dogfight servers when it was never about that.

Von_Rat
08-09-2006, 06:18 AM
funny enuff blue dont have the god given right to top speed like uve had for ages in this game.



the mustang3 has been fastest prop plane,,,read not banned,,,,for a looong time.



oops sorry im supposed to be gone, couldnt help myself, bye again.

Xiolablu3
08-09-2006, 06:59 AM
Originally posted by pdog1:
is 2 lbs going to make much of a difference?
I don't know to much about the Tiffie but i heard its a beast down low and in the game i can barely keep up with late 109s and 190s leave me in the dust. Its a good bird though i just don't like the small gunsight. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Make sure you have no bomb racks or rocket racks, that MAY help.

I have recently discovred that taking bombs/drop tank/rockets stunts the planes performance even after you have dropped them.

Xiolablu3
08-09-2006, 07:00 AM
Nevermind.

WOLFMondo
08-09-2006, 07:05 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">funny enuff blue dont have the god given right to top speed like uve had for ages in this game.



the mustang3 has been fastest prop plane,,,read not banned,,,,for a looong time.



oops sorry im supposed to be gone, couldnt help myself, bye again. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

You need your own red vs blue thread von rat.

p1ngu666
08-09-2006, 07:13 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

fastest yes, but the wings tend to fall off http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Von_Rat
08-09-2006, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">funny enuff blue dont have the god given right to top speed like uve had for ages in this game.



the mustang3 has been fastest prop plane,,,read not banned,,,,for a looong time.



oops sorry im supposed to be gone, couldnt help myself, bye again. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

You need your own red vs blue thread von rat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i fly both sides.

i'd like a 11 lbs tempest with fixed rearview actually. its just that the seemingly search for uber'est plane annoys me.

and i have to agree, the fws and p51s are ahead on the list of things needing fixing 1ST.


ok,ok ill leave before the lock.


use eough downtrim and mustang 3 will not lose wings more than other planes, its annoying but it works.

faustnik
08-09-2006, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:


i'd like a 11 lbs tempest with fixed rearview actually. its just that the seemingly search for uber'est plane annoys me.


That's the thing VR, it isn't a search for "the uber", it's just a search for the "normal". Again, those of us that have always supported a normal rating for the Fw190A4 must support a normal rating for the Tempest. It isn't about that red vs. blue gamer garbage.

WOLFMondo
08-09-2006, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:

i fly both sides.


I know, I'm puller yer leg!

Were not about getting the uberist plane. The uber tempest is the MkII (Bristol Centuarus) or a VI (Sabre VA) or the MK V with a Rotol prop and a Sabre IIB or C running 13lbs, or the last production batch, similar to the plane Pierre Clostermann flew. Were not asking for that, were asking for a batch 3 and batch 1 and 2 upgraded aka normal 2nd TAF Tempest V circa winter 1944 used by 150 and 122 wing.

F6_Ace
08-09-2006, 10:21 AM
I agree - I didn't take the thread as being a request for something uber although I admit that I often have done in the past.

Everyone should support having things as correct as possible otherwise we'd all be flying crimson skies or whatever. I do hope we all also support getting all things done and not just what is 'flavour of the moment' though. That's happened all too often before and has been responsible for a lot of the arguments; it's certainly been a source of frustration for me from time to time.

Von_Rat
08-09-2006, 10:37 AM
hey mondo, welcome to jv44.

VW-IceFire
08-09-2006, 03:12 PM
Well until we dig up some actual performance curves for the +11 its a non starter anyways. Its really hard to find the information...it may be buried in some archives in England somewhere. I've pretty much exhausted my supply of sources.

lrrp22
08-09-2006, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Well until we dig up some actual performance curves for the +11 its a non starter anyways. Its really hard to find the information...it may be buried in some archives in England somewhere. I've pretty much exhausted my supply of sources.


Ice,

Unfortunately, pretty much everything Tempest-related that's available from the National Archives is already up at spitfireperformance.com. That *does* include the Sabre IIA +11 lbs/3700 rpm M.S. gear speed curves. That, along with the Sabre IIB data sheet should provide a good starting point.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/rae1501.html

Brent

WOLFMondo
08-10-2006, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
hey mondo, welcome to jv44.

Thanks Von Rat!

Monty_Thrud
08-10-2006, 06:51 AM
Just had a quick glance at that site...so we're talking 20mph more for the +11Lb Tempest?...better acceleration?...and/or?

WOLFMondo
08-10-2006, 07:06 AM
We'd assume so. Although the Sabre IIA and IIB both running with 11lbs boost ran at different RPM's. Were really looking to get a IIB variant though, which was allot more common than a IIA running 11lbs.

luftluuver
08-10-2006, 07:18 AM
If certain a/c like the 109Z and Horten can have FMs from nonexistent flight data, then there is no reason why the Tempest @ 11lb boost, or even 13lb boost, cannot have a calculated FM.

p1ngu666
08-10-2006, 07:21 AM
yeah better acceloration, e retension etc http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

more revs would be nice, for the sound http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

p1ngu666
08-10-2006, 07:22 AM
thats true luft, need just a few bits of key data, then u can work out the rest pretty acurately..

WOLFMondo
08-10-2006, 07:25 AM
I would rather it be 99% correct than 99% speculative.

JG52Karaya-X
08-10-2006, 07:47 AM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
If certain a/c like the 109Z and Horten can have FMs from nonexistent flight data, then there is no reason why the Tempest @ 11lb boost, or even 13lb boost, cannot have a calculated FM.

Now please tell me how often do you get to fly the Bf109Z, Go229, He162, Me163 or Me262s on dogfight servers for that matter?