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Manu-6S
02-15-2007, 05:24 AM
Have you ever seen this?

If it's old, I'm sorry for posting it.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=sZZGaEEi8Ek

blairgowrie
02-15-2007, 05:56 AM
I hadn't see it before thanks. Quite devastating!

JerryFodder
02-15-2007, 06:04 AM
Yup, that's what the 108's on my Anton 9 do http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Corsair_Fanatic
02-15-2007, 08:11 AM
Shame the 30mms have such poor balistics, tho. But if you can actually connect, you only need 1 hit.

BBB_Hyperion
02-15-2007, 08:55 AM
Reality is something different than in game.

3 to 4 hits mostly. Gun RPM on late war planes does not have it's increased rpm compared to 43 model. The impact angle shown here in il2 is flat and duo 2d trigger zones the damage effect is just from fragments on trigger zones . The gas expansion and deforming effects of explosives are not modeled.

But so can you say for all 20 mm and 12 mm rounds damage effects.

Damage effect is about 1/2 of the reality. Gunnery on the other hand is too easy.

StG2_Schlachter
02-15-2007, 09:07 AM
I think the 30mm damage in 1946 is actually too optimistic. But it's more of a DM issue.

If you hit a B-24 in the wing it comes off almost certainly. It's looks more like a hit from an 88mm.

BBB_Hyperion
02-15-2007, 09:28 AM
The effect for 90 degrees is too much and for 0 degrees too small think about a 2d zone on the wingarea. Then think about fragments of the explosion. The effect is best when you deliver most fragments into the 2d zone. So explosion above or beyond zone directly over it or under it causes that. When you attack from angles or hit outside the area the damage you cause is reduced or non existing.

StG2_Schlachter
02-15-2007, 09:31 AM
Versteh ich nicht ganz.
Fragmente werden doch berücksichtig, zumindest wurde ich schon oft von der schweren Flak zusammengeschossen.

Corsair_Fanatic
02-15-2007, 09:52 AM
Here's a clip of some 20mm Hispano action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc9E8_ZuESQ&NR

Fork-N-spoon
02-15-2007, 10:01 AM
What's this new propaganda? The video looks plausible and I believe it entirely due my combination of actually having experience with explosive rounds fired from medium machine guns up to large artillery pieces. This video does however contradict what many of the German wonder weapon crowd's contention that it did in fact do much more damage than what's shown in the video. I've seen web sites and people from this very forum direct many to countless questionable pages full of B-17s missing huge sections of their wings from a single 30mm meingeshottohellwonderweaponthegermanmineroundwasw aybetter.

Bravo for the find and thanks.

BBB_Hyperion
02-15-2007, 10:21 AM
[game]
.
Arcade=1
.
.

For testing purposes (works only offline) , where the arrows hit you see a arrow going into the plane. That does not mean your plane is damaged yet. Only arrows going through trigger zones cause damage.

http://img120.imagevenue.com/loc25/th_59991_HitMK108arrows_122_25lo.jpg (http://img120.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=59991_HitMK108arrows_122_25lo.jpg)

Here a example how disadvantaged this can be with 0 % angle shoots .

BBB_Hyperion
02-15-2007, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by Fork-N-spoon:
What's this new propaganda? The video looks plausible and I believe it entirely due my combination of actually having experience with explosive rounds fired from medium machine guns up to large artillery pieces. This video does however contradict what many of the German wonder weapon crowd's contention that it did in fact do much more damage than what's shown in the video. I've seen web sites and people from this very forum direct many to countless questionable pages full of B-17s missing huge sections of their wings from a single 30mm meingeshottohellwonderweaponthegermanmineroundwasw aybetter.

Bravo for the find and thanks.

Well in fact when you handled explosives you would indeed know that the effect of the explosion depends on the surrounding. Concluding what damage it causes from a wing hit on an old plane maybe even it used a patchwork as foil ,so the effect damped off to the outside before it developed .

StG2_Schlachter
02-15-2007, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
[game]
.
Arcade=1
.
.

For testing purposes (works only offline) , where the arrows hit you see a arrow going into the plane. That does not mean your plane is damaged yet. Only arrows going through trigger zones cause damage.

http://img120.imagevenue.com/loc25/th_59991_HitMK108arrows_122_25lo.jpg (http://img120.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=59991_HitMK108arrows_122_25lo.jpg)

Here a example how disadvantaged this can be with 0 % angle shoots .

So, what you are saying is that, if the 30mm round hits the wing at a low angle, i.e. straight from behind, very few fragments will hit the wing surface and thus cause less damage?
That's not unrealistic at all. Sorry, maybe my brain is too stressed from work today. I seem to miss the point somehow http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Waldo.Pepper
02-15-2007, 03:43 PM
Sure I've seen it. I posted it on Youtube.

Blottogg
02-15-2007, 04:44 PM
I agree with Hyperion. Hitting a target at low angle-off, there are fragments simulated from the explosive round, but little/no overpressure damage. I'm guessing that a limitation of the current DM is that it doesn't do blast well, so the fragment damage got cranked up a bit to compensate. Since the fragments radiate from the point of impact (on or near the trailing edge in his example), most sail above or below the wing. What damage is caused is usually by fragments hitting the fuselage. In the 30mm video, the Spitfire's wing skin is curled up largely by blast/overpressure, making a huge hole despite hitting and detonating near the trailing edge of the wing. the bent skin is largely intact (it doesn't look like swiss cheese), so it wasn't fragments doing most of the bending.

It's a limitation of the current DM as far as I can tell, and hopefully will be changed for the BoB:SoW version of the DM. Right now, aiming for the wing root and hoping for "splash damage" to the fuselage is the best low-aspect solution. Aiming at mid-span will send most of the fragments off into clear air, and aiming at the tail surfaces will have the same effect. High aspect shots will do more damage (largely because they're less likely to explode at the edge of a surface, with a better chance to hit in the center of a wing/fuselage/tail surface), but that's a fleeting snap-shot, and hitting depends more on luck.

joeap
02-15-2007, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
Sure I've seen it. I posted it on Youtube.

...and thank you for that!!

Charos
02-15-2007, 05:46 PM
OK Im confused. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

The title says: "British firing trial of 30mm
Mine-Geschos ammunition..............Spitfire Mk II hit by HE/Tracer round from MK108 cannon distance 100 yards."

They are mentioning two seperate rounds for the displayed test - which one is in the Test?

The above rounds in BOLD are not the same thing.

Oh and thanks for the Video - very nice. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

darkhorizon11
02-15-2007, 06:25 PM
I sense 15 pages...

FritzGryphon
02-15-2007, 06:29 PM
A MK108 hit in IL-2 to Spitfire almost always results in wing loss.

Simply, MK108 averages 1-2 hits per kill. 20mm averages 5-6 rounds per kill. Over and over tested by different people and always same result.

Agree 100% that some planes are wonky in certain parts being too weak or too durable. That has nothing to do with an assesment of weapon power.

Anyone who thinks weapons are weak needs to shoot less and hit more. Anyone who whines about not getting 6 kills a mission needs to research history about kill rates.

Manu-6S
02-16-2007, 02:05 AM
Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
Sure I've seen it. I posted it on Youtube.

I thought I've just seen that name somewhere http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Thanks for posting it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I feel that the spitfire in the video would fall in pieces after that hit, if only the plane was inflight.

Xiolablu3
02-16-2007, 12:40 PM
I dont know why, but I feel something is a bit strange in that video.

The last frame seems to suddenly be a lot darker than the rest of the film, and it freezes at that point so that you cant really see the damage.

The last frame seems to be intentionally much darker in order to make the damage look worse. If you look just before the smoke miraculously clears, you can see the damage much better, its split the back section of the wing in half, the front section is still there.

However the last frozen frame makes it look like the whole secion of the wing has disappeared, which is wrong.

Its just wierd in some way...

WHy is there not just the film of the hit, without the editing and changing of 'brightness'?

Whether its intentional or not, its not a very good film for assessing 30mm damage IMO.

BBB_Hyperion
02-17-2007, 03:58 PM
Exactly Xiola you could fill books what info is not available. The impact fuse type for example the used mine shell production year. The wing foil
type , the wing internal construction. So without detailed test data (test under controlled condition) this test is near to useless.

While the light explosion can cause the black sequence depending on used camera type.