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View Full Version : Post 4.0 oddities finally lead to me hanging it up for a while.



Cragger
06-27-2005, 12:45 AM
Mr. Maddox you make one hell of a product and I hope to see further ones from your team and company. For the most part I truely like the inertial and torque aspect you've added to the flight model. But I finally had something happen tonight that left me shaking my head in disbelief and lead me to realize online Il2 is quickly losing its charm.

Normally I chalk oddities and strange behavior up to net lag, packet loss, and perhaps the occasional cheater. Such as a FW190-D9 flying thru the cockpit of my LA-5FN and killing my engine but leaving both of us undamaged beyond that, obviously packet loss.

But tonight, tonight on a online server that was running great, just 16 or so players, everything smooth no warping that I can tell everyone sub 150 in ping. We where playing a map that has I16-24s, I-153Ps, and Yak 1s vs. 109F-2/4 and everyone was having a good time.

The 109s where playing smart using their speed and climbrate to stay above us and drop down on our I-16s. Eventually I worked myself into a position that as one 109F-4 went over the top at near stall I was able to point up at it less than 150m away and let loose a barrage of cannon and MG fire that struck the top of his canopy, the top of the engine cowling, and across his wings as my I-16 started to backslide and the cannon recoil threw rounds around.

The most perfect shot, sustained fire 90 degrees into the most vunerable part of your opponents aircraft the engine and top canopy. By a little "obsolete" I-16 clawing to stay pointed up at the messer.

And I am rewarded with... nothing. No oil leak, no fuel leak, no pk, no visible damage to the skin that I can see, no controls lost. He completes his loop extends and comes back and get the better of me in a very well done high deflection shot. One MG 151 on my wing and its all I can do to keep the I16 level, he comes back and now I'm on fire time to get out.

I checked the log after, no cheating warnings, both of us had sub 70 pings, and I truely think he didn't do anything 'unlegit'. He was at the top of a low E loop, stalling about to slide over, I was the same beneath him, package loss would be at an absolute minimal and if it did happen would have negligable effects as we where relatively motionless.

Afterwards I asked him what damage I had inflicted on him, he said just MG 17 destroyed. Pilot not wounded, no flight performance loss he could tell just one lost MG to 2 seconds of cannon fire plus MG fire even if puny 7.62mms.

Chalk it up however you like it but this one just has me going 'WTH?'. Wish I'd been recording a track but its just one of those on the moment things. I'll be back eventually I suppose, never seem to leave for long, plus another Ubisoft product I've been neglecting SH3 is calling for me with the new patch and all.

Note: I play this game for the multiplayer aspect, not the single player aspect. That is what I enjoy and its my personal taste. Others feel otherwise and I respect them for their own desires as I would expect others to respect mine.

Hunde_3.JG51
06-27-2005, 01:03 AM
I don't mean to sound like a jerk when I say this but; that is pretty much what it felt like to use the MG-151/20 on a daily basis prior to 4.01. It does suck to rake your opponent good and get little/no result for your efforts. I will be surprised when the day comes that we don't see DM oddities online, the complexity will increase in B.o.B, which is great, but that may bring problems of its own. Still, we are lucky to have what we have but it can be frustrating at times. I actually stopped flying for about 5 to 6 months because of frustration with what I was seeing online. I hope you are not away that long but being away did give me more of an appreciation of Oleg and crews efforts when I returned.

Fehler
06-27-2005, 03:27 AM
With the complexity of the new FM, does anyone find it that hard to believe that there will be oddities from time to time?

BTW: SHIII is a load of fun! I, however, liked it when I only had one fun game to play... There just arent enough hours in a day for both games!!!!!

Oleg, please model 48 hour days so I can play more!

Badsight.
06-27-2005, 04:13 AM
oh how i remember the I-16 & I-153 in FB v1.xx

so so , soooo hard to bust up/hurt

http://img152.echo.cx/img152/7151/wastedi162qk.jpg

this guy , in this condition continued to fight , got shots on me & took off my squadmates wing

Sturm_Williger
06-27-2005, 05:13 AM
Lol, Badsight - it's the fact that he has holes in both wings. One hole = wingdrop, holes in both = stable level flight again.

You'd think the buffeting alone would remove what's left of his wings, but I guess we'll never have damage modelling quite that detailed.

It CAN be funny though.
"D@mn, you've shot a hole in my wing, can't control her"
later...
"Oh cheers mate, that second shot has helped immeasurably !"
Enemy pilot "Grrrrr !"

VW-IceFire
06-27-2005, 07:35 AM
Well goodbye then.

Just so you know, ping time is only one factor among many that affect net play on any game. Packetloss is the big second one which can cause exactly what you describe...

Until the Internet 2 shows up and throughput on networks is massively enlarged with higher speed home connections, this is going to happen no matter what. I've seen games with much much much much much much flakier netcode.

Cragger
06-27-2005, 07:55 AM
Believe me I am quite familiar with packet loss and the subtilties of online play. However, I also point out that we where for all intents and purposes motionless in the game world. Leaving only the weapons fire open to packet loss. Since it was a sustained fire of over 2 seconds. The probabilty that all those rounds that hit was lost to packet loss is very low.

The only thing that makes me say anything about it is that before odd things would happen when planes would begin to ward and dance about, obvious signs of packet loss and prediction code kicking in. Now however since the latest patches odd things are happening with no percievable signs of packet loss. Its almost as if the game is somehow failing to act on data it is recieving instead of failure to recieve said data.

There is obviously a reason for whatever happens but it remains annoying never the less. This wasn't a 'fix or I'm leaving thread' as I have no illusion that I won't keep playing the game in the future. This game still ranks to me as the #1 combat flight game ever made, and I have little bad to say about it (Mainly just the sound engine http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ).

GR142_Astro
06-27-2005, 10:44 AM
To support what Cragger is reporting, since 4.01 I have had numerous such encounters with 109s. The damage model is completely false for the 109s and the 190s for that matter. It's almost like they have the Lagg-3 DM now.

3 and 4 bursts from 20mm and they not only continue to fly, but fight as well!


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Chadburn
06-27-2005, 11:29 AM
Might I make a suggestion. Rather than quitting, why not make tracks and collect some evidence to support your claims.

When you figure you have proof that there is a problem, mail it to 1C so at least there's a chance to get it corrected.

Cyrano
06-27-2005, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by GR142_Astro:
To support what Cragger is reporting, since 4.01 I have had numerous such encounters with 109s. The damage model is completely false for the 109s and the 190s for that matter. It's almost like they have the Lagg-3 DM now.

3 and 4 bursts from 20mm and they not only continue to fly, but fight as well!


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


That's absolutely correct. 109's keep floating while 190's keep running. Meanwhile one or two hits from the "now correct" 151's rip wings off.
Imagine the amount of b i t c h i n g there would be if the .50's that have always been total c r a p (I know, learn to shoot) were to all of a sudden have the same kind of miraculous transformation as the 151's!
Cragger is being polite when he calls these problems, oddities. Unfortunately this game has gone thru too many "realism" patches and the oddities have become common.

Chivas
06-27-2005, 11:56 AM
Unfortunately the game isn't perfect. When we can provide Oleg with the perfect PC, Monitor, and Internet then Oleg can come closer to providing the Perfect combat flight sim. I fly for both red and blue and the guys on both sides are great and the complaints are the same. Each side complaining the other is Uber. You gotta love it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If I didn't have anything to complain about. I'd have nothing to say. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Brain32
06-27-2005, 12:04 PM
This is <span class="ev_code_RED">OFFLINE!!!</span> One second .50 cal burst...

http://img152.echo.cx/img152/6593/50caldamage6fr.th.jpg (http://img152.echo.cx/my.php?image=50caldamage6fr.jpg)

Hunde_3.JG51
06-27-2005, 03:22 PM
I also have a track of "total cr@p" .50's taking the tail section off of a Dora I was flying with about 3 rounds. I am not saying .50's are too strong, or the 190D's DM is too weak. I am just saying sh*t happens. I also had a track where I cut a P-47 in half with about 2 151/20 rounds at 400+ meters. Both look ridiculous.

How some red flyers can make statements as if they are being cheated by damage models is amazing considering the history of the 151/20. How long did 190 and 109 flyers have to put up with that? On a daily basis you could riddle an aircraft with cannon rounds and watch it out-turn you with little/no apparent effect on flight performance.

Having said that, online play will never be perfect and there are issues with the 190's DM that are under investigation.

Lixma
06-27-2005, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by GR142_Astro:
To support what Cragger is reporting, since 4.01 I have had numerous such encounters with 109s. The damage model is completely false for the 109s and the 190s for that matter. It's almost like they have the Lagg-3 DM now.

3 and 4 bursts from 20mm and they not only continue to fly, but fight as well!


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I will gladly trade my 109's damage model for that of any of the following...the Lavochkin series, The Yak series, the Mustang series, the Spitfire series, the FW series, the Aira/Kingcobra series...etc.

Any takers ?

NorrisMcWhirter
06-27-2005, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by Cyrano:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GR142_Astro:
To support what Cragger is reporting, since 4.01 I have had numerous such encounters with 109s. The damage model is completely false for the 109s and the 190s for that matter. It's almost like they have the Lagg-3 DM now.

3 and 4 bursts from 20mm and they not only continue to fly, but fight as well!


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


That's absolutely correct. 109's keep floating while 190's keep running. Meanwhile one or two hits from the "now correct" 151's rip wings off.
Imagine the amount of b i t c h i n g there would be if the .50's that have always been total c r a p (I know, learn to shoot) were to all of a sudden have the same kind of miraculous transformation as the 151's!
Cragger is being polite when he calls these problems, oddities. Unfortunately this game has gone thru too many "realism" patches and the oddities have become common. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Check the averaged weapons tests performed recently to assess your 'view' of the 151/20. They are similar to the hispano which is, actually, correct.

The .50s may or may not be weak. They have always been highly effective at long ranges and high deflections + they have already been changed once after a severe spell of whining.

Prior to 4.01, there was a lull in .50s whining; now it's back on the menu.

Call me cynical but I'd wager that people are _only_ whining about the .50s now that the 151/20s have been updated to a more realistic model. i.e. 'boo-hoo! Oleg..they've had something new, I want it too'

Yes, the 190 doesn't catch fire very easily but it's easily damaged so as to be put out of the fight as is the 109. Try flying offline, without the oddities of netcode for a while, and you'll know what I mean.

You've already done the gag but come on, .50s whiners...how does it go again? That's right....'learn to shoot'

With respect to the original post, I think we've all had spells away from this game because a patch came along that turned things on their head when, for the most part, there was nothing wrong in the first place. It was only a matter of time before the plane that you fly became affected....have some sympathy for 190 pilots; their ride changes with every patch..and if the FM doesn't change, the DM or WM does.

Ta,
Norris

Grey_Mouser67
06-27-2005, 04:41 PM
Outside of the fuel bug, I thought 109 and 190 Damage modelling had hit a pinnicle in 3.04 and we get a change.

I have to assume the change was unintentional but I just don't know any more. I love the new planes, but I almost feel a sort of anxiety with every new patch...I thought the Fw was really spot on the last go around and poof now it is a wonder bird...the cannons were not just tweaked either, they are rather intimidating...if that is how it was, then so be it...but no way are the hmg's that weak from a relative point of view. I get regular results that Cragger describes when fighting with HMG's be sure....just leaves you shaking your head

The most perplexing issue is that I know Oleg will leave this game behind at some point and I really don't know what the state of the game will be when that happens. The next patch?? Who knows maybe a couple of weeks maybe six months maybe never....what will change with that one...maybe we'll get the fw fixed and the 151/20's will get porked...I know I'm being pessimistic, but the sim has an alarming habit of taking things that seem to be good and changing them for the worse while leaving other obvious things and not fixing them.

73GIAP_Milan
06-27-2005, 04:48 PM
pffff.. here we go again?

it's not the .50's which are off, it's the damagemodels themselves this time.. Gibbage has got the hard proof of that in a thread here in ORR.. atm 1 thread above or below this one...

for some reason i'm starting to believe that the .50 whiners should be shot with one of them to feel their damage http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I repeat: IT'S NOT THE GUNS IT'S THE DAMAGE MODELS, and not just the 190's, P-47's, Hellcats , 109's but for crying out loud almost the full range of DM's.. i have tested this out myself so i know..
Luftwhiners, Allywhiners, sit down, take some valium and start reading instead of whining.

sorry for my rant here..

NorrisMcWhirter
06-27-2005, 04:53 PM
The most perplexing issue is that I know Oleg will leave this game behind at some point and I really don't know what the state of the game will be when that happens. The next patch?? Who knows maybe a couple of weeks maybe six months maybe never....what will change with that one...maybe we'll get the fw fixed and the 151/20's will get porked.

That was always my concern. Oleg walks away and leaves it in a state and it's only really bad luck as to whose side gets the perceived 'porking' each time around.

No doubt the current crop of whining will give some result; maybe the FW AND the 151/20s will be porked and the .50s will be returned to uber stardom THEN Oleg calls it a day for Il-2. I know some red fliers would love that situation because it would satisfy their nationalism (somewhat). I also know that some red fliers would very much dislike the situation just as a lot of blue fliers don't want Lagg3 190 DMs or 108s masquerading as 151/20s.

Tricky business for Oleg, really, because if he gets it wrong on the final patch, there may be a lot of people simply walking away from BoB as they've suggested before. Of course, you'll also get the 'pseudo-fanboys' who will walk away from BoB just because 'their plane' isn't in it from the start.

Fickle world, isn't it? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ta,
Norris

Cyrano
06-27-2005, 05:54 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
[
You've already done the gag but come on, .50s whiners...how does it go again? That's right....'learn to shoot'



Actually I think the gag has become "learn to shoot, at convergence, with the right convergence, preferably at wing roots or cockpit at the right time of day and the sun just right". Oh and make sure it's against me, cause .50's always shoot me down!
...as a matter of fact, just the other day in my 109 the .50's hit sooo hard I actually leaned forward to look at the damage at the tree below me. Unfortunately I pushed the stick too hard and in the process nosed the plane right into the ground....**** them's .50's kick A S S ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Good Hunting!

GR142_Astro
06-27-2005, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by Lixma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GR142_Astro:
To support what Cragger is reporting, since 4.01 I have had numerous such encounters with 109s. The damage model is completely false for the 109s and the 190s for that matter. It's almost like they have the Lagg-3 DM now.

3 and 4 bursts from 20mm and they not only continue to fly, but fight as well!


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I will gladly trade my 109's damage model for that of any of the following...the Lavochkin series, The Yak series, the Mustang series, the Spitfire series, the FW series, the Aira/Kingcobra series...etc.

Any takers ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Certainly!

You can have the one second burst that instantly knocks out the P51 or P47 engine feature. Enjoy and let me know how that works out for you.

Cragger
06-27-2005, 06:21 PM
Wow, I certainly didn't intend for this to become another .50 debate. Hmm, well on further recollection I think I'll just be sticking around zekes vs. wildcats for a while until this ETO and WTO stuff gets sorted... if it does. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Grey_Mouser67
06-27-2005, 07:56 PM
Well I apologize if I helped turn it into that...some of us see the HMG's as one of the discrepencies.

Personally, and I mean no disrespect to Oleg or anyone who flies here, but I think he made a big mistake with the FM change.

The change is global in nature, but it affects all the aircraft differently...he now has so many aircraft, it is not feasible to fine tune each one and I think that is what needs to be done!

Case in point...heavy aircraft seem to wander all over the place...take the P-47...I have a dvd from the roaring glory series on the P-47 and the host is flying a P-47 and describing the aircraft...in his own words, the plane rides like it is on rails...little to no input. In the story they do a role play of a couple of missions...on where a pilot gets hit by flak and it takes out his rudder, ailerons and nearly all his elevator and the damage only allows him about 260mph top speed. This is a true story...the pilot, oddly enough has a little bit of aileron trim and controls his plane with trim....obviously, there is little to no torque on the big plane or he couldn't have flown it...the plane would not fly level...anyways he eventually makes a high speed landing and walks away from the crash sight unharmed.

This is real life nowadays stuff...I also have the episode on P-38's. The plane I'm flying with the label of P-47D in no way resembles the handling of the Jug in real life....now what is Oleg going to do? go back and fix all these aircraft? I doubt it...he is onto a new sim...hopefully he'll take care of some of them and frankly speaking, I'd rather keep the maps, clouds and planes and go back to 3.04 and live with the Fw fuel leak bug...I don't think that 4.1 is a closer reality at all...the 109 has a nice feel to it as does some of the others like Yak, P-40 and Wildcat but I think he just opened up a can of worms with the spit, fw and other heavy planes...

I hope he continues to refine the 4.1 and I sure hope that this is not an accurate representation of BoB.

ManicGibber
06-27-2005, 11:25 PM
I got that P47 DVD as well Grey_Mouser67 excellent viewing. I think though that the P47 feels now as if it is a heavy aircraft in 4.01m. P47 in 3.04m was like flying a kite, flip-flopping all over the place, stalling all the time. Which reminds me, the commentator pilot flying the P47 said it had almost no tendency to drop a wing on the stall with just the nose dropping gently.

BSS_Vidar
06-28-2005, 01:07 PM
There are definatly some weird inconsistancies going on with damage models. I've been able to really pop a good amount of rounds from a P-51 into a 109 and watch it make pretty splats like paintball. But then I fly an F-4F Wildcat against a 109, and 110's even, and open them right up and split them in half with just a quick burst. Even I thought, "WTF is dat all about?"

When I fly 109/190's, and the occasional 152's, it's some much more stress free for me. I actually have fun! Then I feel guilty and go back to my Pony and Corsair.http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

I've been steadily transitioning into LOMAC. MY GOD what a sim! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif However, I feel like I have to go through a RAG sylibus again to learn the weapon systems. LOL Been there, done that! Hope this all gets wringged out in the wash before I'm completly hooked on Jet's... AGAIN

Grey_Mouser67
06-28-2005, 06:37 PM
lol vidar...I have to agree with the guilty thing...I'll probably get hung out to dry for the statement I'm about to make (can hear the rustling of pitchforks and lighting of torches in the background) but I'd go so far to say that the Bf109G series through K series to be the second most overmodelled aircraft in the game...just behind the Ki-84! I'll give the Fw a repreave cause I know there is a damage bug to be fixed but holy moly...I feel let down if I come back to base with less than 5 online kills in the Fw now http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I have a friend I'm helping get into the sim and he asked what was the easiest plane to fly...my reply...the Bf109G2! Imagine that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

USAF_pilot
06-29-2005, 06:57 AM
You amiwhiners finally see that the MG151 is no longer a popgun where P51 mustangs can absorb 10-20 MG151 hits and you start whining.BTW you are absolutely nuts if you think 109's DM is uber.I did a test to see if all your whinining is true.Spit needed just 1 hit from hispano to dislocate the 109's wing.MG151 is still far from perfect - LaGG3 still needs 10 hits.
Oleg dont let nationalist fervour force you to do some unrealistic changes.Never look back to the 3.04 MG151

Brain32
06-29-2005, 09:37 AM
I'd go so far to say that the Bf109G series through K series to be the second most overmodelled aircraft in the game...just behind the Ki-84!

Would you mind explaining this, just for once I would like to hear some arguments(Ki-84 also).


BTW: When you(blue or red) start whining about some plane being overmodelled, do you even think about how your words may sound? Does it ever occur to you that put in another words basically your saying: "The pilots of the side in favor of which's plane I'm whining for, which were killed by pilots of the plane for which I'm claiming to be overmodelled are incompentent idiots".
I don't know how that sounds to you but it sounds extremely rude and disrespectful to me...

FritzGryphon
06-29-2005, 09:45 AM
MG151 is still far from perfect - LaGG3 still needs 10 hits.

I think what you mean is LaGG-3 is far from perfect. You will notice that MG151 is nearly as good as Hispano, now. The MG rounds improve it considerably.

Another big mistake too many people make, judging weapons by planes with abnormal DMs. Like how people shoot FW-190, and complain that M2 is too weak...

Chadburn
06-29-2005, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Grey_Mouser67:
lol vidar...I have to agree with the guilty thing...I'll probably get hung out to dry for the statement I'm about to make (can hear the rustling of pitchforks and lighting of torches in the background) but I'd go so far to say that the Bf109G series through K series to be the second most overmodelled aircraft in the game...just behind the Ki-84! I'll give the Fw a repreave cause I know there is a damage bug to be fixed but holy moly...I feel let down if I come back to base with less than 5 online kills in the Fw now http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I have a friend I'm helping get into the sim and he asked what was the easiest plane to fly...my reply...the Bf109G2! Imagine that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Grey Mouser...can you point me to your online stats that support your claims...just for fun. Do you fly greatergreen, WarClouds, Czech War??.. they should be listed there.

Copperhead310th
06-29-2005, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by Hunde_3.JG51:
I don't mean to sound like a jerk when I say this but; that is pretty much what it felt like to use the MG-151/20 on a daily basis prior to 4.01. It does suck to rake your opponent good and get little/no result for your efforts. I will be surprised when the day comes that we don't see DM oddities online, the complexity will increase in B.o.B, which is great, but that may bring problems of its own. Still, we are lucky to have what we have but it can be frustrating at times. I actually stopped flying for about 5 to 6 months because of frustration with what I was seeing online. I hope you are not away that long but being away did give me more of an appreciation of Oleg and crews efforts when I returned.

Then if this is the case you should FULLY understand the USAAF flyers utter fustration with the Browning m2 .50 Cal.
Cause this is the same thing that we get time and again.

Badsight.
06-29-2005, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by Chadburn:
Grey Mouser...can you point me to your online stats that support your claims...just for fun. Do you fly greatergreen, WarClouds, Czech War??.. they should be listed there. could we get a clarification from Grey_Mouser67 on this

GR142-Pipper
06-30-2005, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
[quote](...snip...)The .50s may or may not be weak. They have always been highly effective at long ranges and high deflections + they have already been changed once after a severe spell of whining.

Prior to 4.01, there was a lull in .50s whining; now it's back on the menu.

Call me cynical but I'd wager that people are _only_ whining about the .50s now that the 151/20s have been updated to a more realistic model. i.e. 'boo-hoo! Oleg..they've had something new, I want it too' It's no secret that the .50s have been a complete joke for a very long time now. The only plane in which the .50s have any semblence of hitting power is in the P-40 when equipped with six.

At the end of the day and IMHO, what this game needs is a good strong competitive product from another vendor to give it a run for its money. If and when that ever happens, watch things get fixed in a hurry in this game.

....just my take.

GR142-Pipper

F19_Ob
06-30-2005, 06:33 AM
If we could get arcademode to work on NTRK's these things would be easily checked and one would have known where the bullets hit for sure.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

73GIAP_Milan
06-30-2005, 06:36 AM
on a slight sidenote: OB i just love your sig http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

F19_Ob
06-30-2005, 08:10 AM
Slight Sidenote too:
Thanks Milan. Olli72 made it for me.
It's an ingame bf110 and he added the radarantennas.
U can see the big screenshot on bottom of this page in higres screens thread:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/35010114/p/187

Grey_Mouser67
06-30-2005, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chadburn:
Grey Mouser...can you point me to your online stats that support your claims...just for fun. Do you fly greatergreen, WarClouds, Czech War??.. they should be listed there. could we get a clarification from Grey_Mouser67 on this </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why yes...I fly primarily on UK Dedicated and a little bit on WarClouds, Wildcat vs. Zeke, and Spit vs 109.

You'll probably have to wait a bit for me to accumulate some statistics because both of the servers I fly the most have reset stats and I haven't flown since...my Fw flying is mostly on UK dedicated and I've been flying and learning on War Clouds but my grasp of tactics is getting me shot down alot ...I fly red exclusively on that server..I despise the forward view of the Fw.

Anyways prior to the last 2 resets my K/D ratio typically runs between 7-9:1 and you can find stats on Battle-fields.com. Prior to 4.0/4.1 on Warclouds my K/D was around 3:1 I think but I didn't fly it so much so I wouldn't put much stock into that statistic. My gunnery ran 6-8% and the opinions I have formed around Fw effectiveness came with the release of 4.0...I think the A-4 through A-5 are as effective for me as the Mk108 wing cannons now or darn close based on kill rates when comparing outcomes of similar sorties in terms of ammo expended etc. The Fw was the most survivable plane in the game for me before the fuel bug was taken away and the DM bug was added and it is better now and those guns are soooo very powerful now.

I'll try to fly a bit this weekend to give you something to look at http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif cause you won't see much now...i'll be under Grey_Mouser

As far as my opinion of the 109, it is an opinion of mine and if you don't agree then so be it. I enjoy logical discussions and debates as I usually learn lots of new things from them but I try my darndest to stay away from emotional arguments.

BSS_Vidar
06-30-2005, 12:46 PM
Well said Gray_Mouser.

S! to a gentleman that doesn't get sucked in.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Chadburn
06-30-2005, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by BSS_Vidar:
Well said Gray_Mouser.

S! to a gentleman that doesn't get sucked in.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Sucked into what exactly? It was a pretty straightforward request, and thanks Grey_Mouser for your reply.

On WC, maintaining a consistent 8/9:1 K/D would put you in pretty select company and I didn't recall seeing you there, that's why I asked. I flew there pretty extensivley with 4.0 and earlier patches and seeing anyone rack up 4 to 5 kills per sortie on a regular basis in any plane was rare.

On the other hand, UK Dedicated is an open pit server, and though many will want to argue differently, it's apples to oranges. But before anyone thinks I'm trying to be elitist and turn this into a closed versus open pit debate, let me expalin. Open pit servers create equalities that don't exist in closed pit servers: perfect, unobstructed views for all planes; the ability to make deflection shots that would be miraculous in closed pit servers; long-range friendly icons (which make BnZ tactics easier), and enemy icons and arrows at 1km with range indicator, IIRC.

I could see how a disciplined fighter in any BnZ plane (and certainly the 190 is one of the best)could rack up some good k/d stats in UK Ded,

As for your opinion on the 109, well, as you admit, it's an opinion and you're entitled to it. It's more productive to ask WHY you hold that opinion, but maybe we can save that dicussion for an other time. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Grey_Mouser67
06-30-2005, 04:59 PM
I have found that there are definitely different needs for cockpit on vs. off servers. In UK dedicated, I did manage to get into elite status but that was really a function of taking advantage of the tactical situation and good wingment...discovering teamspeak and flying Fw's helped the most...

In warclouds, I used to not fly on coms so I would fly very high...maybe pick off a bandit and get bored and fly back...thus I didn't stick with it...I never acheived much of a kill ratio nor many kills really...just didn't play much and didn't enjoy it much.

Some weeks ago I've been flying Warclouds and getting pasted pretty regularly...I think my kill ratio was under 1 but as time went on and I began to understand the tactics, I know if I fly patient and fly the best planes available I'll get better. I've been on coms and run into a flying comrade "schlumberger" and have had a great time flying WarClouds.

Anyways my thoughts on the Fw were after a handful of sorties right after the release of 4.0 and I was de-winging La's with small bursts and I really did come back with many more kills than I had before so I actually got a little aggrevated...other than a tweak to the guns and the fuel bug fixed, I thought the Fw had reached a pinnicle of perfection in flight modelling...I hate it when things that are good get changed...even for the better....The Fw was my #1 ride on UK and it was a killing machine before the patch..at least for me...now it almost seems outrageous to me. I haven't flown on that server since.

Anyways, this post seems to have turned out ok after all and I have nothing to hide in my stats and I'll be the first to admit if my experience down the road doesn't hold up to my early claims..they were my first impressions based on my results...nothing more, nothing less.

I really enjoy servers that pit historical planesets with different strengths and weaknesses cause it creates the need for a mental game...how to exploit those advantages and disadvantages. Planes that get to good don't require that level of mental engagement so I tend to get bored. If I get bored then I jump to bad opinions I guess!

Lately, I've discovered how to operate my two computers in a LAN configuration and I've been having a ball flying with my 9year old on home coop missions...if you have two computers, you got to give it a go...it is a hoot!

Chadburn
06-30-2005, 06:45 PM
Grey_Mouser, I agree that even before the latest patch, the 190 was still an effective machine. 4x20mm cannons still packed a punch. But if you compared the 3.04 and ealier versions of the 190 with other planes with a similar weapons array, 4x20mm cannons, like the F4U-1C or the Hurricane MkIIC, then it was clear that the 190's guns were nowhere near as effective. And it really impacted planes like the 190D models with only 2x20mm as well as the single nose cannons in the 109's.

I guess my point is that I never read any complaints about the hitting power of the F4U-1C or the Hurri MkIIC...or even the new Spit Vc (4). Yet some people seem to think that the corrected 151/20's are an aberation.

And I'm sure if you fly WarClouds on a regular basis and get on comms, your stats will be just fine. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Of course, as you've already discovered by playing co-ops with your nine year old, stats aren't important to enjoying the game.

Aaron_GT
07-01-2005, 12:16 AM
Then if this is the case you should FULLY understand the USAAF flyers utter fustration with the Browning m2 .50 Cal.
Cause this is the same thing that we get time and again.

They work for me and I am a poor shot. They are not effective as Hispanos, but then nor should they be. I can down planes with them with reasonable effectiveness, sometimes even with spectacular explosions.

50 cal whining is overmodelled - that's the real problem :-)

msalama
07-01-2005, 01:24 AM
Exactly, though my gunnery seems to have improved with the new patch http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

whitetornado_1
07-01-2005, 07:30 AM
Well I find that overall the .50's and German
guns hit well now.

But some do not like the changes made and
it shows in the Hyperlobby now.Player
numbers are low and when you can get someone
to join a coop you're lucky.With answers like its to hard or I am not good enough.

You have a better chance of a noob joining now
than those that have flown for months in you coop.