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View Full Version : USAAF losses. how many of them in combat ?



XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 04:40 PM
Salute,
since many people like to post about german losses. lets talk about the USAAF (and maybe about the RAF ,and all the other airforces too,
but no flame war needed. just for interest.
before you do so, take a look here :

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/history/wwii/veday.htm


http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 04:40 PM
Salute,
since many people like to post about german losses. lets talk about the USAAF (and maybe about the RAF ,and all the other airforces too,
but no flame war needed. just for interest.
before you do so, take a look here :

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/history/wwii/veday.htm


http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 05:52 PM
There were many many losses from weather and accidents as compared to combat. Many more losses were to flak. Read the book "An Ace of the Eighth". The author sometimes listed monthly losses and causes at the end of a chapter. Most of the losses were not from air to air combat.

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 05:57 PM
Check this link...surprising number of training deaths.

http://www.cebudanderson.com/357thkia.htm

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 06:18 PM
Not to rude or insensitive, but damn, whats up with the group? crashing training, running into each other and other planes?? man... alot was due to enemy action too thou...

Germanys military was very good, the only reason it looked so easy for both West and russians is they had germany on 3 fronts, 1 nation spreading its units in 3 diff areas wont give much success... just imagine is germany had all its might against allies in west? could have easily kept us out of europe.. if they had all might agianst russian they probably would eventually had a trench war...

i know i know.. they didnt, they got beat, but just a few things to think about before you say they werent any good etc...

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 06:22 PM
I bet if you checked...there were more than a few German deaths in training on the Me-109 due to that narrow landing gear. Not picking on the Germans...back in that time there were a lot of training deaths and accident deaths in every air force.

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 06:26 PM
tell me about it zyzbot... i still kill myself or wreck when trying to land the 109, gotta come in at about 200 or less or else you migh boucned or just splat!! lol

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 06:59 PM
I found this tidbit...looks like they had some tough times with non-combat losses too:


JG-53 losses in August 1944:

In August the same unit lost 42 aircraft through enemy action, 18 more in non-combat accidents, 20 more abandoned or destroyed on airfields captured by the enemy, and a final 20 through other causes.



From:

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1983/mar-apr/murray.htm

I wonder what those "other causes" were?

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 07:57 PM
If they (nazi germany & the axis) had kept the peace with the east (stalin) long enough to defeat the west....& then proceeded in smaller wars in turn one after another untill she was strong enough to defeat the russains with support from japan they would have won the war. ideally both japan & gemany shuld have attcked stallin on both sides at the same time. as did the allies did near the end of the war.
the blitzkreg was a very affective style of warfair.

Still.... & thankfully so....we had a very differant out come.

By April 1945, the German Army was shattered. On April 25, American and Soviet forces met at the Elbe River. Five days later, Hitler committed suicide in his Berlin bunker. His successor, Admiral Karl Doenitz, sent General Alfred Jodl to the SHAEF (Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Forces) detachment in Rheims to seek terms for an end to the war. At 2:41 a.m. on May 7, general Jodl signed for the unconditional surrender of German forces on all fronts, which was to take effect on May 8 at 11:01 p.m. After six years and millions of live lost, the Nazi scourge was crushed and the war in Europe was finally over.

"After six years and millions of live lost"
Some of us here might do well to remember that.
the wounds alficted on the world by germany's nazi party are still sore even to this day. & those wounds run deep.
lets hope thatis long rememberd, so such evil never visits the world again.

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Message Edited on 11/07/0301:00PM by Copperhead310th

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 03:52 AM
First of all, we should remember that these guys were flying what were essentially experimental aircraft in an unfamiliar country in some really crappy weather. It is unlikely that the P-38, P-47, or P-51B and later model Mustang would have seen operational use before 1944 had there not been a war on, and the bugs would have been long shaken out beforehand. B-17s and B-24s were hard to handle too. What you should appreciate is that as technology improves, the operator has less work to do, and his job is less demanding. WWII aircraft were extremely complicated by modern standards, and the job of just flying the dang things was plenty of work.

The other factor you have to think about is the difficulty of hundreds of aircraft climbing through 10-15 thousand feet of overcast over southeastern England, organizing themselves into proper units (even with the help of primative 2-D, non height finding radar)and heading for central Europe before they all ran out of gas or ran into each other in the overcast.

Those of you who are Americans should look at a map of the British Isles to get some frame of reference. That is one small country, dudes. You could fit it into a corner of most US states,and have plenty of room left over.

As for the Germans, they had a very large and efficient military which had been preparing for a long time while the rest of the world kept telling themselves that they couldn't be trying THAT again, and it wasn't necessary, the Germans were just playing dress-up or something, and why go to all the expense of matching them in an arms race, then it might turn into a real war...

As it was, the US never really brought it's full weight to bear in Europe, due to a slight distraction in the Pacific, and the LW never had to deal with the first string (do a comparison of Pacific theater aces, Army vs Navy/USMC, and then check how Army pilots who fought the Japanese first did against the Germans vs how ETO experienced guys did against the Japanese-very enlightening). We also had to bring a lot of people and stuff a long way, by ship, through U-Boat infested waters (at least 'til 'mid'43).



"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" - LCOL Don Blakeslee, CO, 4th FG, March, 1944

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 08:09 AM
The air offensive conducted by the AAF in conjunction with the RAF against Germany and Italy was of tremendous value in bringing about victory in Europe with the final defeat of these two nations. It was costly, however, for the AAF losses from all causes totaled 27,694 aircraft, including 8,314 heavy bombers, 1,623 medium and light bombers, and 8,481 fighters destroyed in combat. Total AAF battle casualties were 91,105 personnel--34,362 killed, 13,708 wounded, and 43,035 missing, captured, or interned.



can somebody split these losses year for year ?
some of you US guys know more about german losses than about americans .


http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 03:47 PM
Although this is more for the USN, the following
might be of interest.

Of 1699 F4Us lost, 189 were lost as a direct
result of air-to-air action, and an additional
350-or so from AAA fire. 169 were lost to
landing accidents (I don't know if any of those
were already damaged) and the large balance
to 'other causes'. In other words only about 31%
of F4Us were lost to direct enemy action. I don't
know what that large proportion of 'other causes'
was, but I wouldn't be surprised if figures for
other aircraft weren't relatively similar.

Whilst I think Isegrim's recent suggestion that
only one in three 109s lost in Europe were due
to enemy action, including bombing raids of
airfields, etc., is a bit low it isn't impossible that
only one third of losses of 109s were caused by
enemy action whilst the machines were in the air.
(The 109 suffered about a 10% loss rate on landing,
like the F4U, for different reasons, and a lot
of damaged aircraft were struck off as lost so
they could be scavenged for spares due to the poor
spares supply system).

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 04:27 PM
I just wanted to add my 2 cents with a thought not a tally or statisic before this disintgrates into another political/ nationalistic hate spewing contest.

I think that one thing that links us sim pilots to the real life WWII pilots is that we are all dreamers. We dream of breaking free of gravity, if only for awhile and soaring like a bird.


Here's a salute to All the dreamers from All the nations who lost their lives and never got to continue in their pursuit of the dream. S'






Message Edited on 11/08/0303:28PM by J.D.Carter

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 04:43 PM
try this link:

http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/wwwroot/aafsd/aafsd_list_of_tables_aircraftequipment.html


It contains links to files related to USAAF WWII aircraft information including losses.

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 04:56 PM
Zyzbot wrote:
- try this link:
-
- <a
- href="http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/wwwroot/aafsd/
- aafsd_list_of_tables_aircraftequipment.html"
- target=_blank>http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/wwwroo
- t/aafsd/aafsd_list_of_tables_aircraftequipment.htm
- l</a> -
-
-
- It contains links to files related to USAAF WWII
- aircraft information including losses.
-
-

The main page.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/wwwroot/aafsd/aafsd_list_of_tables.html


http://www.thundercycle.com/photos/dropdead2.gif



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 06:10 PM
thx guys.
i found this:

http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/wwwroot/aafsd/aafsd_pdf/t100.pdf



Argon, do you know some numbers about losses of the RAF ?

http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 08:59 PM
I have read a lot of books and there is a constant theme in each book, training accidents, weather, running out of gas, collisions with wingmen, mechanical failures, pilot inexperience, and things of this nature made up atleast 75% of the losses. for the U.S. forces in every theater of operation. once you look at combat losses flak took more american aircraft than did any enemy aircraft, and not just barely it won by a clear margine. just guessing, but I bet american fighter aircraft losses due to air to air enemy action were only about 5% maybe 10% of total losses.

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 09:17 PM
You were far safer in the infantry, even storming the beaches on D-day. The odds of survival were much higher than a flyer in the Air Corps.

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 10:29 PM
Also big different if carrier sunk. IJN lost lot of high trained pilots in 4 carriers sunked in one attack. If they hadn't happen then more US planes losses to high trained pilots.

Regards
SnowLeopard

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 11:56 PM
pinche_gabacho wrote:
but I bet american fighter aircraft losses
- due to air to air enemy action were only about 5%
- maybe 10% of total losses.


sorry, but i want to see facts , not anybodys " bet " or "guess ".



http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 12:07 AM
JG26_Red wrote:
- Not to rude or insensitive, but damn, whats up with
- the group? crashing training, running into each
- other and other planes?? man... alot was due to
- enemy action too thou...
-
- Germanys military was very good, the only reason it
- looked so easy for both West and russians is they
- had germany on 3 fronts, 1 nation spreading its
- units in 3 diff areas wont give much success... just
- imagine is germany had all its might against allies
- in west? could have easily kept us out of europe..
- if they had all might agianst russian they probably
- would eventually had a trench war...
-
- i know i know.. they didnt, they got beat, but just
- a few things to think about before you say they
- werent any good etc...
-
-
Well I suppose if little US 12 year old boys were taken from there parents and forced into flight training at 14 years old they might have been a bit better at the begining.
Also at the early stages of War US was behind the learning curve. US didnt always think about training and development because we didnt plan on world domination like Germany.
S~



http://www.angelfire.com/ab4/airplanes/P47_Thunderbolt/P47.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 12:21 AM
i would tend to agrre 100% with that statement. it was widely know that German AA gunners were extreamly deadly & accurate. Not to mention that by (my guess) late 43 most off the realy good german pilots were already dead since they didn't have a rotation. by the wars end they were sending 16 yr old kids up to fight veteran US fighter aces.
not a good match up at all. combine that with the fact theat by at least mid war the allies out numberd the LW by at leats 3 to 1 in the air. it is a well known fact that...depite it's advancements.... Gemany could never match the industrial strenght of the US. that was IMO part of her downfall.

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XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 11:55 PM
Copperhead310th wrote:
- i would tend to agrre 100% with that statement. it
- was widely know that German AA gunners were
- extreamly deadly & accurate.



Right on.

http://www.uploadit.org/files2/061103-Sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 12:09 AM
Some trivia,

2/3 of all the LW aces with more than 100 claims survived WW2.





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"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 12:14 AM
Copperhead310th wrote:
- If they (nazi germany & the axis) had kept the peace
- with the east (stalin) long enough to defeat the
- west....& then proceeded in smaller wars in turn one
- after another untill she was strong enough to defeat
- the russains with support from japan they would have
- won the war. ideally both japan & gemany shuld have
- attcked stallin on both sides at the same time. as
- did the allies did near the end of the war.
- the blitzkreg was a very affective style of warfair.
-
- Still.... & thankfully so....we had a very differant
- out come.
-
- By April 1945, the German Army was shattered. On
- April 25, American and Soviet forces met at the Elbe
- River. Five days later, Hitler committed suicide in
- his Berlin bunker. His successor, Admiral Karl
- Doenitz, sent General Alfred Jodl to the SHAEF
- (Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Forces)
- detachment in Rheims to seek terms for an end to the
- war. At 2:41 a.m. on May 7, general Jodl signed for
- the unconditional surrender of German forces on all
- fronts, which was to take effect on May 8 at 11:01
- p.m. After six years and millions of live lost, the
- Nazi scourge was crushed and the war in Europe was
- finally over.
-
- "After six years and millions of live lost"
- Some of us here might do well to remember that.
- the wounds alficted on the world by germany's nazi
- party are still sore even to this day. & those
- wounds run deep.
- lets hope thatis long rememberd, so such evil never
- visits the world again.

Thanks for the history lesson!.....

-----------------------------------------------------
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/stg77kondor/pics/NeumullerF-1.jpg
-----------------------------------
Leutnant Fritz Neumuller
Staffelkapitan 7./StG77 May 1944
610 combat missions
Over 50 Russian tanks destroyed
--------------------------------------
http://members.fortunecity.com/stg77/index.htm

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 12:23 AM
S!
Also I posted here Nov 1:

http://www.com-central.net/nphpbb/phpBB2new/viewforum.php?f=32&sid=2ed150d02a9ba786df72b005d6751ec9

Here is the net difference from the USAAF statistics looking at only Air to Air Enemy Destroyed and Air to Air losses, ie no ground straffing kills, no losses to flak, just air to air:

---------------------------------------

Net from tables here:

http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/wwwroot/aafsd/aafsd_list_of_tables.html


Aerial Victories ONLY:
Enemy Destroyed in Air, including all types:
Logically, Bombers destroyed Enemy fighters, while Fighters shot down mostly Enemy fighters, but early on also Enemy bombers/transports:

European Theatre

_________USAAF Fighters________________________USAAF Bombers

_________Enemy____AAF________________________Enemy ____AAF
Year_____Aircraft____Fighter_____________________A ircraft___Bomber
_________Destroyed_Losses_____________________Dest royed_Losses

1942________7_______10_________________________162 _______37

1943______451______161________________________3381 ______700

1944_____5602_____1293________________________2398 _____1516

1945_____1362______227_________________________157 ______199


Mediteranean Theatre

_________USAAF Fighters________________________USAAF Bombers

_________Enemy____AAF________________________Enemy ____AAF
Year_____Aircraft____Fighter_____________________A ircraft___Bomber
_________Destroyed_Losses_____________________Dest royed_Losses


1942_______81______46___________________________36 ______12
1943_____1270_____816_________________________1244 _____209
1944_____1760_____441_________________________1869 _____619
1945______189______24____________________________9 _______7


You can see, that in the European Theatre, up till 1944 and the P-51, the Bombers shot down more German Fighters, and did so all along in the Med !!

Also, you can see in 1942 and 1943 in the Med, that USAAF did quite well with the P40's, and early P47's vs the 109 and 190.

Training:

Finally, WW2 pilot for Germany and Britain had 225 hours of training in 1942, but by 1944, German pilots had but 125-150 hours, while US and GB pilots had 350 hours of flying training:

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1983/mar-apr/murray4.JPG





" The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down ": General Chuck Yeager, USAF, describing his first confrontation with a Me262 - - -
" Aggressiveness was a fundamental to success in air-to-air combat and if you ever caught a fighter pilot in a defensive mood you had him licked before you started shooting ": Captain David McCampbell, USN, leading U.S. Navy ace in W.W.II.

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 12:24 AM
P-51 losses in the PTO during B-29 escort missions were very low to E/A, but overall losses equaled the kills by the P-51's. In other words, lots lost due to accidents, combat and non-combat related.

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 12:27 AM
Seems that some of the supposedly American viewers of this forum ought to take their red-and-white striped sun glasses of their eyes and look at the cold facts. I can read between the lines that the U.S. won the war in Europe left handidly. Give me a break.

If the initiator of this conversation wants some facts, pls provide them. Other opions are useless.

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 12:48 AM
AAF Historical digest Table #159:



Lists a grand total of only one US fighter aircraft as being shot down by AAA in the ETO in all of 1943.


What's up with that?


<center><img src= "http://perso.wanadoo.fr/christophe.arribat/stoffwjabo.jpg" height=205 width=385>

<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

British Air Marshall, Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 12:54 AM
Porta_ wrote:
- Seems that some of the supposedly American viewers
- of this forum ought to take their red-and-white
- striped sun glasses of their eyes and look at the
- cold facts. I can read between the lines that the
- U.S. won the war in Europe left handidly. Give me a
- break.


What, exactly, do you mean by this?

This is a discussion of USAAF losses, nothing more, if you have a political agenda, please take it elsewhere.

<center><FONT color="red">[b]BlitzPig_EL</FONT>[B]<CENTER> http://old.jccc.net/~droberts/p40/images/p40home.gif
</img>.
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day that it was vanity:
but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible. "
--T.E. Lawrence

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 04:42 AM
I have a book called "victory roll! the american fighter pilot and aircraft in world war II" isbn 0764314580

these are fighter aircraft losses only, I do not have any type of bomber info sorry.

ETO

total losses 5324
to enemy aircraft 1691
to anti aircraft 2449
other causes 1184

these break down into

1942

total losses 10
to enemy aircraft 10

1943

total losses 178
to enemy aircraft 161
anti aircraft fire 1
other causes 16

1944

total losses 3765
to enemy aircraft 1293
anti aircraft 1611
other causes 861

1945

total losses 1371
to enemy aircraft 227
anti aircraft fire 837
other causes 307

MTO

total losses 3157
to enemy aircraft 1357
anti aircraft fire 822
other causes 1008

MTO by year

1942

total losses 54
to enemy aircraft 46
anti aircraft fire 8
other causes -

1943

total losses 1088
to enemy aircraft 816
to anti aircraft 115
other causes 157

1944

total losses 1571
to enemy aircraft 441
to anti aircraft 493
other causes 637

1945

total losses 444
to enemy aircraft 24
to anti aircraft 206
other causes 214

PTO

total losses 1695
to enemy aircraft 636
anti aircraft 300
other causes 759

PTO by year

1942

total losses 199
to enemy aircraft 192
anti aircraft 1
other causes 6

1943

total losses 310
to enemy aircraft 244
anti aircraft 9
other causes 57

1944

total losses 513
to enemy aircraft 141
anti aircraft 100
other causes 272

1945

total losses 673
to enemy aircraft 59
anti aircraft fire 190
other causes 424

CBI

total losses 774
to enemy aircraft 295
anti aircraft 208
other causes 271

CBI by year

1942

total losses 24
to enemy aircraft 20
anti aircraft -
other causes 4

1943

total losses 146
to enemy aircraft 94
anti aircraft 10
other causes 42

1944

total losses 371
to enemy aircraft 157
anti aircraft 86
other causes 128

1945

total losses 233
to enemy aircraft 24
anti aircraft 112
other causes 97

when I made my statement that most american fighter losses were to reasons other than direct air to air fighting I was obviously thinking of late war statistics and not looking at the big picture. in the ETO in 1945 the americans lost 83.5% of their fighters to reasons other than luftwaffe fighters shooting them down.

I was just guessing and read a lot more about the PTO than the ETO. glance up at the PTO figures and you will see that reasons other than direct combat fighting with japanese aircraft took more fighters than did japanese aircraft.

by the way, is this the type of information that you were looking for?

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 02:43 AM
boa, I was just wondering if the info I posted was what you were looking for, I posted it late at night when the forum isnt very busy.