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View Full Version : Why are the 109s so easy to fly after 4.01m



Serpentmaster09
08-08-2005, 09:32 PM
Is it me or the are the 109s extremely easy to fly. I usually fly the P-38 but every once in a while I would fly the P-51 or spitIX. I like to fly the spit when I'm in a mood for a little turn and burn. After noticing that I was getting waxed pretty good by the late model 109s, I decided to fool around with them in order to discover some of their weeknesses. To my supprize I thought that they handled pretty good. I can see why the 109G6AS is so popular. I was expecting stiff controls at high speed because 109s suffered from stiff controls at high speeds according to some ww2 pilot reports but the aircraft was still very controlable. Overall I thought that the 109 was a very fun aircraft to fly : online and it was allot more stable than the spitIXc. Flying at low speeds and high angles of attack, the 109 seemed to be more docile.

VW-IceFire
08-08-2005, 10:27 PM
They are definately better than ever before...

Maybe a bit too good. One wonders.

Badsight.
08-08-2005, 10:39 PM
they are not "better than ever"

their turn times & speed are the same as before , whats different is that most planes took a hit in "ease-of-use" , planes became harder to fly in patch v4.01

the Bf-109s dont seem to have been hit as hard by v4.01 as other planes have , this makes them feel "better than ever" , but you still aint going to turn tighter circles than Spitfires or Yaks

just that you have an eaiser to control plane than the Yak or Spitfire user

Pirschjaeger
08-08-2005, 11:21 PM
As a frequent 109 flyer for almost 4 years, I'd say the 109 didn't change much with the latest patch. It stalls a little easier than before, but that's the only difference I've noticed.

I agree with Badsight.

Fritz

HayateAce
08-09-2005, 12:21 AM
At the repeated requests of luft players, the 10whine has been made better and better and better until we are left with this arcademachine.

High horsepower, low weight but NO TORQUE

Large calibre weapons but NO SHAKE

High speed handling FAR better than history tells us, and this is made EVEN worse with the fake trim

---------------------------------------------
"Here's Ye new Klown09s boys, No need to learn'em at all!"
---------------------------------------------



Oh and high badsite, how's the lemonade stand coming?

http://www.edgewiseweb.com/images/lemonade_stand_fedup_LR_RGB.jpg

karost
08-09-2005, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
At the repeated requests of luft players, the 10whine has been made better and better and better until we are left with this arcademachine.

High horsepower, low weight but NO TORQUE

Large calibre weapons but NO SHAKE

High speed handling FAR better than history tells us, and this is made EVEN worse with the fake trim

---------------------------------------------
"Here's Ye new Klown09s boys, No need to learn'em at all!"
---------------------------------------------



Oh and high badsite, how's the lemonade stand coming?

http://www.edgewiseweb.com/images/lemonade_stand_fedup_LR_RGB.jpg

I do agree, but seem not only 109 but almost every plane face the same pain like that.

S!

Tvrdi
08-09-2005, 01:12 AM
Badsight...u answered him good....karost, ur just another one-side whiner (reds are louder these days)...did you EVER fly LW planes? more than a few mins? did you noticed how shaky their noses are even when with gently handling....did you noticed how f big is an silhuete of the Me109 (compared to the others)even it was a small plane in RL? with big f crosses on the tail.. FW190 front view? too poor stall characteristics? I would kill you with any red plane vs you in any of the Bf109s....want to try? few days ago one one-side whiner whined how p51 is poor now....I told him ill took P51...hehe he took bf109....he was wiped every time....learn to fly..

do you one-side whiners remember how many obvious and big bugs we had in blue planes and then ur mouths were closed (just one big example: (gunsight dropping after one bullet hit anywher in the plane area in LW planes)

ther are so many bugs i can post here including planes on both side..not to mention that they toned down the new FM for you whiners who came directly from FPS world.....thats the reason why so many old il2 folks arent with us anymore...Im on the way to go....Oleg is not here anymore (BoB)....just you, one side whiners/flyers and the mods.....

faustnik
08-09-2005, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
they are not "better than ever"

their turn times & speed are the same as before , whats different is that most planes took a hit in "ease-of-use" , planes became harder to fly in patch v4.01

the Bf-109s dont seem to have been hit as hard by v4.01 as other planes have , this makes them feel "better than ever" , but you still aint going to turn tighter circles than Spitfires or Yaks

just that you have an eaiser to control plane than the Yak or Spitfire user

I agree with you Badsight, the question why? How come the Bf109s took less of a hit?

Hristo_
08-09-2005, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:

some more YAOI !!




I'm waiting for you at WarClouds.

F19_Ob
08-09-2005, 01:50 AM
Originally posted by Serpentmaster09:
Is it me or the are the 109s extremely easy to fly.

All or most planes became easier in one respect and somewhat more difficult in other.
The snapstalls from 3.04 are gone and all planes enters a stall 'gentler' or perhaps 'smoother' is a better word. This enables planes to turn longer periods than they could in 3.04
This is a part of the explanation why planes feel like they turn better, but the better answer would be 'turn for longer periods' ( my opinion)

Some complain that the p-38 turns to well but the turn isn't dramatically increased, but since it now lacks the vicious snapstall from 3.04 and as most others are given a gentler stall it can turn for longer periods wich is a dramatic effect to the better.

----------------------------

The simplest way to test this yourselves is to have a parallel instalation of both 3.04 and 4.01. and switch between them plane for plane.

This change to gentler stalls was the first thing I noticed with the new patch and I compared the two for some time.

a few thoughts http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Badsight.
08-09-2005, 01:55 AM
its not often that Sgt_Slaughter bothers to fly hristo

as for the topic , one thing i know is that most fights are lost rather than won , so the plane that allows more "hamm-fist" & lets you make less mistakes allows you to fight for longer than a delicate , hard to control plane

& this is the exact situation i find with the Spitfire versus the Messershmitt when both are cranked over hard flying the envelope

feels like other planes with slats have a small amount of the same thing going on , but it feels most pronounced in the Bf109 , maybe its to do with the fact that the Bf-109 had such poor elevator authority + the new stalls + the slats ??

HellToupee
08-09-2005, 02:10 AM
The 109 feels steady as a rock in a low speed turn fight where as the spitfire wobbles and shakes and wobbles and shakes some more when u just tap the trigger. The g2 especically is far easyer than any spitfire and will beat the mk9 in the turn and burn, the only way to beat them is treat them like a spitfire and urself as a d9 and just run http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. I dont think its that is easyer to fly it was always a pretty easy bird to fly its just that most other planes got alot harder.

Tvrdi
08-09-2005, 02:53 AM
Hristo I thought that your Romanian http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Pirschjaeger
08-09-2005, 03:04 AM
I noticed that the 109 is fairly stable when you fire, unlike the 190, but I think that has to do with firepower and the positioning of the guns. The most stable plane I've noticed is the spitfire. It never wobbles when you pull the trigger. I feel it's the best for accuracy but somehow, I know many will not agree with me. But the 109 is still the sweetest to fly, once you are used to it. The 190 is great for stress release. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I'm putting my flame resistant suit on now. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Fritz

Hristo_
08-09-2005, 03:08 AM
Originally posted by Tvrdi:
Hristo I thought that your Romanian http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Nije, nego su geni kameni http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

pourshot
08-09-2005, 03:16 AM
I don€t get into these topics very often but I have to say that the 109 is by far the most user friendly therefore probably best plane to learn in, gunnery is also dead easy in a 109.

I don€t fly axis online but I do offline and I am always surprised at how stable the 109 is compared to anything we allied have.

109 the new noobs plane?

Xiolablu3
08-09-2005, 03:18 AM
I thought they were a lot 'heavier' feeling after the latest patch.

When I first started flying online (3 days before the last patch) I could put gunpods on the 109G2 and was turning and burning with everything, and seemed to be blowing ppl out of the sky quite easily on dogfight maps.

After 4.01 however the G2 with gunpods handles like a brick for me.

No evidence, its just how it 'feels' to me.

Hristo_
08-09-2005, 03:19 AM
Originally posted by pourshot:

... I have to say that the 109 is by far the most user friendly therefore probably best plane to learn in, gunnery is also dead easy in a 109...

...I don€t fly axis online...



hmmmmm

neural_dream
08-09-2005, 03:19 AM
gunnery easy in a 109????

pourshot
08-09-2005, 03:21 AM
Originally posted by neural_dream:
gunnery easy in a 109????

Yep nose guns rule.

pourshot
08-09-2005, 03:29 AM
I should add just for hristo that the for the first year or so 109's are all I flew online, then after making friends at Hyper I joined a allied squad and moved to the p40 as our team ride.

I dont dislike the German planes infact I like them just fine they are sweet rides be sure, hell I even got kicked from a server for getting to many kills in a 190 before the last patch ( I was only flying it for testing purposes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

HoldSteady641
08-09-2005, 03:34 AM
I think a few things are missed as well as misplaced:

first of all, the 109 WAS a very stable plane, easy to fly and very nice to handle, except when landing (due to the gear positioning a large percentage of 109 pilot death resulted from non-combat resulted crash when landing). So, before starting to compare planes solely on alleged differences in the game, look to the reality, on which the game obviously tries to base itself.

second, the plane DOES shake and drift when firing, allthough perhaps less than other planes. Important to notice in this regard is that the cannon of the plane is prop-nose mounted and the guns are on top of the engine. That means ON or on top of the axis of the plane, CLOSER to the gavity point of the plane than any other that are just compared to it, like the spit, mustang or 190. So it wouldn't suprise me one bit if firing their guns, heavy armament or no, tends to shake them less as these other planes. For comparison, take gunpods and watch the plane turn just by shooting.

An other case of course is the p38, bur their two-engine config is inherently more unstable than a single engine plane in this, except that the opposite direction of the engines cancel eventual turning around the axis of the plane.

MEGILE
08-09-2005, 04:22 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:


---------------------------------------------
"Here's Ye new Klown09s boys, No need to learn'em at all!"
---------------------------------------------




http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Nice parody http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WarWolfe_1
08-09-2005, 04:25 AM
109 n00b patch.......next up zeke n00b patch.......J/K

But I do think they are a bit to easy to take off in. Oleg is a LW fanboy incase you haven't heard.

Badsight.
08-09-2005, 04:27 AM
Originally posted by pourshot:
Yep nose guns rule. im the 100% opposite

i cant stand nose guns , so hard to track with

wing mounted guns double my accuracy like instantly , i find the nose gun Yaks the hardest of all to connect with (unless point blank)

Atzebrueck
08-09-2005, 04:54 AM
109 easier to fly ?
The absence of rudder and aileron trim, both became much more important with 4.01, doesn't support this thesis :P.

HoldSteady641
08-09-2005, 04:55 AM
Hmm, that's not called accuracy, that's called scattershot!

carguy_
08-09-2005, 05:03 AM
4.01 didn`t change the 109 much.IMO all planes became more maneuverable but getting max performance out of all of them became more difficult.Just as the P39,the 109 reacts pleasantly to routine maneuvers but becomes tricky when you come close to max of its possibilities.

Online I`ve seen few P39 pilots that made me go http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif when I saw them getting a firing solution on my 109 though I was able in all but one time to get out and shoot them down.

I still consider P51 and Spit IXc to be top fighters in the game.I know what they can do and what to do in 109 to make em fall into maneuvers that place me at a advantage.
I evade playing the 109 game while in Spit/Pony and I always am able to win.Howefer,as I`m a 109 pilot,I always start the engagement with energy advantage or when I`m not noticed.After years of flying it is natural.

IMO 109 is more universal then those two although in 1v1 it is just a target.

karost
08-09-2005, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by Tvrdi:
Badsight...u answered him good....karost, ur just another one-side whiner (reds are louder these days)




well I feel happy that you'er see me as a red side whiner http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ... but wrong! please, check 151/20 posts you will know what side I stay.



...did you EVER fly LW planes? more than a few mins? did you noticed how shaky their noses are even when with gently handling....did you noticed how f big is an silhuete of the Me109 (compared to the others)even it was a small plane in RL? with big f crosses on the tail.. FW190 front view? too poor stall characteristics?


seem you misunderstand my previous post:
I do agree with HayateAce but not only 109 I mean almost every plane
-NO TORQUE ( is game don't have a nature torque model )
-NO SHAKE ( LW planes has to use shift+F1 for lock view coz gunsigh stay in right eye ) all red plane you can select to use lock view or nomar view
-High speed handling... trim ( like 109 compare to p-39 )

Tvrdi, I'm 109 guy playing this plane for over 3 years and that made me feel easy for 109. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif



I would kill you with any red plane vs you in any of the Bf109s....want to try? few days ago one one-side whiner whined how p51 is poor now....I told him ill took P51...hehe he took bf109....he was wiped every time....learn to fly..


that interesting me alot
I will try p-51 it's seem challenging me coz now you have new 151/20 right ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


9/BK_Karost
S!

Atomic_Marten
08-09-2005, 08:25 AM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
they are not "better than ever"

their turn times & speed are the same as before , whats different is that most planes took a hit in "ease-of-use" , planes became harder to fly in patch v4.01

the Bf-109s dont seem to have been hit as hard by v4.01 as other planes have , this makes them feel "better than ever" , but you still aint going to turn tighter circles than Spitfires or Yaks

just that you have an eaiser to control plane than the Yak or Spitfire user

I agree.

In fact I have a hard time finding just one of your posts where I can say that I don't agree with you.

p1ngu666
08-09-2005, 08:47 AM
after weeks off, the first plane i flew was teh ki100, which i crashed repeatidly, mostly because i had my alirons set wrong, opposite of what was needed so i repeatidly rolled into teh ground http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

did a flight or two in it properly, thought it was mediocure, like ki61, also abit hard to control.

took k4 out for a ride next. nailed throttle with mw50 for takeoff, was so easy i fishtailed down teh runway for fun http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
easy to fly, very stable shot down two aircraft, a dora and another 109, seemed *easy*
landed fine too.

it probably is a n00b plane.

Kwiatos
08-09-2005, 08:51 AM
For my Bf109 actually is userfriendly plane now. I call it now noobplane. Easy to fly, easy to aim. No accleration stall, too low stall speed for Bf 109 G and K series. Prop pitch cheat give 109 extra impossible boost, trim bug on elevator cause impossible turn rate at high speed, and still bf109 could turn like the hell at low speed (109 G2, A/S. G-14).
Now 109 is the same noobplanes lile LA5FN, La7 and Laggs66.

everything is here:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/6941040243

geetarman
08-09-2005, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by karost:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
At the repeated requests of luft players, the 10whine has been made better and better and better until we are left with this arcademachine.

High horsepower, low weight but NO TORQUE

Large calibre weapons but NO SHAKE

High speed handling FAR better than history tells us, and this is made EVEN worse with the fake trim

---------------------------------------------
"Here's Ye new Klown09s boys, No need to learn'em at all!"
---------------------------------------------



Oh and high badsite, how's the lemonade stand coming?

http://www.edgewiseweb.com/images/lemonade_stand_fedup_LR_RGB.jpg

I do agree, but seem not only 109 but almost every plane face the same pain like that.

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry friend, but you are wrong on this one.

geetarman
08-09-2005, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
its not often that Sgt_Slaughter bothers to fly hristo

as for the topic , one thing i know is that most fights are lost rather than won , so the plane that allows more "hamm-fist" & lets you make less mistakes allows you to fight for longer than a delicate , hard to control plane

& this is the exact situation i find with the Spitfire versus the Messershmitt when both are cranked over hard flying the envelope

feels like other planes with slats have a small amount of the same thing going on , but it feels most pronounced in the Bf109 , maybe its to do with the fact that the Bf-109 had such poor elevator authority + the new stalls + the slats ??

I'm of the opinion that a 109 should be a very good fighter at lower speeds from all I have read. Is it approaching "Zero-like" qualities at low speeds in the game? I'm not too sure, but it's getting close.

However, I think it's high speed modeling is very dodgy based on the info I've seen. It should be more of a handful at higher speeds, which would be more appropriate.

With all the comments about it though from red and some blue players, we must understand it was a very good fighter plane at lower and medium speeds up until the end of the war.

You really should not be dogfighting it in Mustangs and Thunderbolts and a few other planes.

JG52Karaya-X
08-09-2005, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
At the repeated requests of luft players, the 10whine has been made better and better and better until we are left with this arcademachine.

You nice? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif
Would you care sharing some quotes with us that suggest what you are saying?


High horsepower, low weight but NO TORQUE
Are you serious? The 109s, especially the MW50 equipped have enormous torque at slow speeds. Of course the effect vanishes with rising speed as (when it reaches the speed it's been trimmed for on the ground)


Large calibre weapons but NO SHAKE
Again, are you serious? The Mk108 is a shotgun now in 4.01m - hard to hit anything accurately unless closer than 200m. And the MG151/20... it's light, it's nose mounted - how much recoil do you expect?


High speed handling FAR better than history tells us, and this is made EVEN worse with the fake trim
Yea right it's soooo manoeuvrable at high-speeds - actually handles like a brick http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif


But as you never try to be objective about anything blue or to be more specific anything German - who cares about your opinion?

NorrisMcWhirter
08-09-2005, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
its not often that Sgt_Slaughter bothers to fly hristo

Sgt Slaughter == HayateAce?

Ah.....now that explains everything

Ta,
Norris

Atomic_Marten
08-09-2005, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">YAOI.

You nice? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif
Would you care sharing some quotes with us that suggest what you are saying?


YAOI!
Are you serious? The 109s, especially the MW50 equipped have enormous torque at slow speeds. Of course the effect vanishes with rising speed as (when it reaches the speed it's been trimmed for on the ground)


YAOI?!
Again, are you serious? The Mk108 is a shotgun now in 4.01m - hard to hit anything accurately unless closer than 200m. And the MG151/20... it's light, it's nose mounted - how much recoil do you expect?


YAOI...
Yea right it's soooo manoeuvrable at high-speeds - actually handles like a brick http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif


But as you never try to be objective about anything blue or to be more specific anything German - who cares about your opinion? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

MEGILE
08-09-2005, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:

took k4 out for a ride next. nailed throttle with mw50 for takeoff, was so easy i fishtailed down teh runway for fun http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
easy to fly, very stable shot down two aircraft, a dora and another 109, seemed *easy*
landed fine too.

it probably is a n00b plane.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

FW-190 for sure is an easy plane to fly. Its a very nice handling plane and fairly simple to fly.

Xiolablu3
08-09-2005, 10:55 AM
I agree with Badsight...

I much prefer wing guns unless someone is flying straight and level in front of me.

Most of my shots are deflection shots and so wing guns give more of a spread, and I am more likely to score a hit.

Same reason spit pilots set their guns convergence at different ranges. Although you would get more hitting power in one exact place if all guns were set at the same distance, how often can yoube sure to get the enemy in that exact spot?

LStarosta
08-09-2005, 10:58 AM
Many of you don't remember, but I was the first person to yell YAOI back in that HayateAce kiddie porn thread.

Xiolablu3
08-09-2005, 10:59 AM
Double Post sorry.

MEGILE
08-09-2005, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
Many of you don't remember, but I was the first person to yell YAOI back in that HayateAce kiddie porn thread.

The memories still haunt me.

Hristo_
08-09-2005, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
.... kiddie porn thread....


Where, where ?!

NorrisMcWhirter
08-09-2005, 11:10 AM
You mean the Spit isn't the 'Official Noob Plane Of This Game' anymore?

You're right...all those 190 jocks who prided themselves on scoring with a difficult ride have been defecting to the Spit in their 1000s http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ta,
Norris

JG5_UnKle
08-09-2005, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Badsight.:
its not often that Sgt_Slaughter bothers to fly hristo

Sgt Slaughter == HayateAce?

Ah.....now that explains everything

Ta,
Norris </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doesn't it just? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

HayateAce
08-09-2005, 11:21 AM
What are you live in cave???

High-speed handling in ONe Blow Whine is tremendous of ease:

USE TRIM you dolts!

Whipping-Fake elevator trim is the Oleg answer to revisionist history.

Someone say HristBlow gonna post more kid-porn? For shame since he has been banned for this once already.

JG5_UnKle
08-09-2005, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
What are you live in cave???

High-speed handling in ONe Blow Whine is tremendous of ease:

USE TRIM you dolts!

Whipping-Fake elevator trim is the Oleg answer to revisionist history.

Someone say HristBlow gonna post more kid-porn? For shame since he has been banned for this once already.

LOL, steady on lad you'll have a stroke.

Stop laughing at the back http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
08-09-2005, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by JG5_UnKle:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
What are you live in cave???

High-speed handling in ONe Blow Whine is tremendous of ease:

USE TRIM you dolts!

Whipping-Fake elevator trim is the Oleg answer to revisionist history.

Someone say HristBlow gonna post more kid-porn? For shame since he has been banned for this once already.

LOL, steady on lad you'll have a stroke.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think he's had one already. It has impaired his mental function somewhat.

Ta,
Norris

Atomic_Marten
08-09-2005, 03:48 PM
Jeez Norris your posts are harmfull to me. I laugh 2 much so it will strike me too.http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

HayateAce
08-09-2005, 04:39 PM
G A M E P L A Y

"Keep it fair boys, history be ****ed".

Is the sign over cubicles at 1C....

http://images.animationfactory.com/animations/machines/game_controls/arcade_game_zap/arcade_game_zap_lg_nwm.gif

Atomic_Marten
08-09-2005, 04:52 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Christos_swc
08-09-2005, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by HoldSteady641:
I think a few things are missed as well as misplaced:

first of all, the 109 WAS a very stable plane, easy to fly and very nice to handle, except when landing (due to the gear positioning a large percentage of 109 pilot death resulted from non-combat resulted crash when landing). So, before starting to compare planes solely on alleged differences in the game, look to the reality, on which the game obviously tries to base itself.

second, the plane DOES shake and drift when firing, allthough perhaps less than other planes. Important to notice in this regard is that the cannon of the plane is prop-nose mounted and the guns are on top of the engine. That means ON or on top of the axis of the plane, CLOSER to the gavity point of the plane than any other that are just compared to it, like the spit, mustang or 190. So it wouldn't suprise me one bit if firing their guns, heavy armament or no, tends to shake them less as these other planes. For comparison, take gunpods and watch the plane turn just by shooting.

An other case of course is the p38, bur their two-engine config is inherently more unstable than a single engine plane in this, except that the opposite direction of the engines cancel eventual turning around the axis of the plane.

Well, I couldn't agree more.
109 has been badmouthed so much by certain 'experts' it's been made to look an inferior weapon, at least in handling.
Anyone who would like to learn a few more things about what this excellent fighter was really about can look here
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/109myths/

Even if you find yourself disagreeing with some of the authors' comments it's hard to dispute the experience of the actual pilots who flew 109s from both sides during and after the war.
Then perhaps some people can reconsider their 'overmodelled' attitude towards the 109.

p1ngu666
08-09-2005, 06:38 PM
it was better than every other fighter, at everything, and the pilots where teh best.

thank god for kurt tank, for giving the allies a plane they could finaly beat easily, and thus win teh war http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

LStarosta
08-09-2005, 08:34 PM
On a related note, I always thought the 109's were some of the easiest planes to fly.

Pirschjaeger
08-09-2005, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by Christos_swc:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HoldSteady641:
I think a few things are missed as well as misplaced:

first of all, the 109 WAS a very stable plane, easy to fly and very nice to handle, except when landing (due to the gear positioning a large percentage of 109 pilot death resulted from non-combat resulted crash when landing). So, before starting to compare planes solely on alleged differences in the game, look to the reality, on which the game obviously tries to base itself.

second, the plane DOES shake and drift when firing, allthough perhaps less than other planes. Important to notice in this regard is that the cannon of the plane is prop-nose mounted and the guns are on top of the engine. That means ON or on top of the axis of the plane, CLOSER to the gavity point of the plane than any other that are just compared to it, like the spit, mustang or 190. So it wouldn't suprise me one bit if firing their guns, heavy armament or no, tends to shake them less as these other planes. For comparison, take gunpods and watch the plane turn just by shooting.

An other case of course is the p38, bur their two-engine config is inherently more unstable than a single engine plane in this, except that the opposite direction of the engines cancel eventual turning around the axis of the plane.

Well, I couldn't agree more.
109 has been badmouthed so much by certain 'experts' it's been made to look an inferior weapon, at least in handling.
Anyone who would like to learn a few more things about what this excellent fighter was really about can look here
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/109myths/

Even if you find yourself disagreeing with some of the authors' comments it's hard to dispute the experience of the actual pilots who flew 109s from both sides during and after the war.
Then perhaps some people can reconsider their 'overmodelled' attitude towards the 109. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanx for the link, very interesting. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

"Overmodelled" is a word that simply describes the plane that shot lesser pilot, and coincidentally a whiner, down. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"Porked" is simply a word that describes the plane flown by the lesser pilot, and coincidentally, a whiner.

Fritz

Badsight.
08-09-2005, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by HardlyAce:
urrrrg for someone as biased as you , you got a cheek to bring up history or accuracy

Hayaten00b is just smarting at our last 1v1 is all , here look - i took a screenie

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/4359/hayatenoob0de.jpg

hes like the HL Bike , everyone gets a ride . . . . . . . neeeding to get yourself on the scoreboard with a easy hundred points ? just find ole HardlyAce here

LBR_W.Zellot
08-09-2005, 10:05 PM
It's all about slats http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

96th_Nightshifter
08-09-2005, 10:12 PM
After 4.01 however the G2 with gunpods handles like a brick for me.

No evidence, its just how it 'feels' to me.

I would have said the complete opposite, the G2 with Gunpods is my favourite 109 set up - That thing is lethal. The 109 to me has always been a real nice plane to fly, feels very stable and as long as you don't try and turn fight too much in it your sweet - I don't fly Axis too often but there is nothing quite like swooping down on a bomber and letting rip with those gun pods................cough, anyway enough of that I'm a Allied pilot http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LeadSpitter_
08-09-2005, 11:59 PM
basically the same reason the spit in 3.04 was overmodeld and many of the most flown planes in game each patch. They make many errors and claim they are right everytime, they are wrong. Speak the truth and people call you whiner here. Get use to it and dont bother with any techincal threads as they are pure spam.

In 3 years+ the only people I have seen worth a **** is vmf214 target's researched thread in orr, both historical documents and devicelink in game plotted documents.

Try simhq.com they have civil discussions about aircraft and documents spammers get banned or posts removed there not whole threads locked like here, also try some of the newsgroups on google.

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.war.world-war-ii

is a great one.

the only people on this forum you should listen to are bbb hyperion, pingu, 609iap, vmf214-target, and bss vidar, skychimp, buzzu and a few others. The rest are here just to spam.

JG5_UnKle
08-10-2005, 01:46 AM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
The rest are here just to spam.

Oh the irony! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Sturm_Williger
08-10-2005, 06:00 AM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
The rest are here just to spam.

To be fair, he didn't include himself in the list although I would have thought he could at least have included Faustnik.

But I'm just a spammer http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

MEGILE
08-10-2005, 06:04 AM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
The rest are here just to spam.

Hey I resemble that remark.

Christos_swc
08-10-2005, 06:35 AM
Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
The rest are here just to spam.

Hey I resemble that remark. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You mean resent?
If yes I'm with you.

MEGILE
08-10-2005, 06:46 AM
Originally posted by Christos_swc:


You mean resent?


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif
Nope.

NorrisMcWhirter
08-10-2005, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by JG5_UnKle:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
The rest are here just to spam.

Oh the irony! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif


The rest are here just to spam

Beats spamming the in game chat with whining, though, eh?

Ta
Norris

p1ngu666
08-10-2005, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by Sturm_Williger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
The rest are here just to spam.

To be fair, he didn't include himself in the list although I would have thought he could at least have included Faustnik.

But I'm just a spammer http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

he probably forgot, there are a fair number of guys who are decent here, but could remmber there names, im **** at that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

MEGILE
08-10-2005, 09:03 AM
Mr p1ngu... check PTs plzz http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MEGILE
08-10-2005, 09:06 AM
Much obliged.

Chivas
08-10-2005, 11:46 AM
After the patch I've found the 109's a little slower to recover and regain altitude after a stall, and the 108's deflection shots are more difficult.

han freak solo
08-10-2005, 03:06 PM
I dunno, in a Bf-109G6 I'm getting my @ss handed to me in the QMB by a pair of F4UCs or F4UDs.

LeadSpitter_
08-10-2005, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
As a frequent 109 flyer for almost 4 years, I'd say the 109 didn't change much with the latest patch. It stalls a little easier than before, but that's the only difference I've noticed.

I agree with Badsight.

Fritz

I cant believe you people, the main thing increased was it climb, then the elevator compressibility was removed completely which is making it the ultimate bnz high speed 700-900kmph bnzer, it can follow a p47 from 8000m to the deck, the 47 will gain slightly 1000kmh but as soon as it levels out slowly bleeding no e the 109 will catch it immediatly.

i have to disagree the 109s winning in the highspeed and lowspeed turn fight now, its stall characteristic are lower then an ac in game equally to the la5fn vs 109k4

what baffles me is how people cant admit it, i dont know one spitfire pilot that didnt admit 3.04 spit with its zero energy climb advantage which was only about 100m wasnt a problem, now in this verison the spits toned down but the same problem is givin to the p38 dora and 109 now.

plus more with this new fast trim and lack of elevator compressibility /stick pressures.

Atomic_Marten
08-10-2005, 03:32 PM
LeadSpitter wrote:
I cant believe you people, the main thing increased was it climb, then the elevator compressibility was removed completely which is making it the ultimate bnz high speed 700-900kmph bnzer, it can follow a p47 from 8000m to the deck, the 47 will gain slightly 1000kmh but as soon as it levels out slowly bleeding no e the 109 will catch it immediatly.

Do not spread incorrect informations. According to the Mr. Volkmar L¶wenherz (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/2911059443) Bf-109G-14 was superior to the P-51, let alone P-47.
I'd say that Mustang&Jug drivers can be happy with the current state, considering how the things really should be. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hristo_
08-10-2005, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:


I cant believe you people, the main thing increased was it climb, then the elevator compressibility was removed completely which is making it the ultimate bnz high speed 700-900kmph bnzer, it can follow a p47 from 8000m to the deck, the 47 will gain slightly 1000kmh but as soon as it levels out slowly bleeding no e the 109 will catch it immediatly.

...

plus more with this new fast trim and lack of elevator compressibility /stick pressures.

Our half truth crusader strikes again, eh ?

We must be flying different sims. Elevator compressibility removed ? Completely ? Pardon me, but that is an outright lie.

Head straight to the game and check it out. Then fly a 190 and compare the two.

Coming from Fw 190, I have missed so many high speed passes in a 109 it isn't even funny. Due to (...drumroll...) elevator compressibility.

carguy_
08-10-2005, 03:47 PM
This guy proved many times that he is the particular person 1C should be ignoring.

Badsight.
08-10-2005, 10:52 PM
well hes just not giving the full infomation about why he believes what he types

he's talking about full trim turning

its true with full trim you can overcome the elevator for high speed turning . . . . . but you get the same advantage regardless of plane , you also get mean blackout from hard high-speed turning

its not a "109" effect . . . . . . rather a patch "fix"

this is a general discussion forum - anyone who flys this game a lot , to its limits , has stuff to share

Pirschjaeger
08-10-2005, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
As a frequent 109 flyer for almost 4 years, I'd say the 109 didn't change much with the latest patch. It stalls a little easier than before, but that's the only difference I've noticed.

I agree with Badsight.

Fritz

I cant believe you people, the main thing increased was it climb, then the elevator compressibility was removed completely which is making it the ultimate bnz high speed 700-900kmph bnzer, it can follow a p47 from 8000m to the deck, the 47 will gain slightly 1000kmh but as soon as it levels out slowly bleeding no e the 109 will catch it immediatly.

i have to disagree the 109s winning in the highspeed and lowspeed turn fight now, its stall characteristic are lower then an ac in game equally to the la5fn vs 109k4

what baffles me is how people cant admit it, i dont know one spitfire pilot that didnt admit 3.04 spit with its zero energy climb advantage which was only about 100m wasnt a problem, now in this verison the spits toned down but the same problem is givin to the p38 dora and 109 now.

plus more with this new fast trim and lack of elevator compressibility /stick pressures. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

L-Spitter, like Hristo said, we must be playing different sims. Keep in mind that I haven't flown the new FM online, only offline. I also only fly 109 and 190's. I cannot, in a K4 or a 190A5 catch the P-47s at level or in a dive. Before the FM, I could.

There are only two ways I can catch planes such as the P-47, P-38, or the Mustang. First, is when they are climbing and I have superior alt. Second, is tactical. Before the new FM I could always catch these planes.

One thing I have noticed for the 190 and 109 in the new FM is that at high speeds the rudder is as heavy as he11. Also the rolrate of the 190 has been dummied; it's nothing to what it used to be.

I'm not complaining, in fact I like the new FM. It presents more challenges for the 109 and 190. My preferred rides are 190's e,f,and g series and the 190A4. I like these against 44' planes sets.

BTW, before I'm accused of lying, I'd like to say these are my experiences, that's all. Don't even ask for charts or tracks. I waste enough time in GD. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

LeadSpitter_
08-10-2005, 11:14 PM
I have and did with both versions installed maybe you should do what you say. carguy_ hristo NorrisMcWhirter you guys are know to be the most bias blues on here, at least i fly all aircraft always. I said the same about 3.0 with the ufo corsair same about 3.04s spitfire same about the fb 1.0 with i153 i16 k4 hurricane 1.22 zero ki84 in previous patchs, sturmo bogus concrete 190, and ufo p39s...

In fact vmf214 taget is the only one here who has proved me wrong about gunheaters on browning .50 cal, and he got to rub that one in for many weeks and didhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

go test it send tracks of 3.04 and 4.01 with trim recovery at 890kmph 5-6-7000m direct nose down in the 190ds and 109s and recover at 500m start to recover at 840kmh then come back here and appologize.

Just becuase i do not waste the time anymore to show tracks, scanned book documents, data charts, not one but from many nations, devicelink plots to you forum trolls that just respond back oh its fake propaganda blah blah.

Not worth my time to prove you wrong at all and nothing gets resolved anyone who flies this game knows it and uses trim on rotaries. Remember carguy kurfursts thread on the p47 takes 30 hits from mg151 in 3.04 then i show you an online track of me exploding or ripping off the tails of 8 online p47s in 4 shots each in the g2 remember that one? You hristo carguy kurfurst 190fan norris and many others in there then come back and say but your firing at .20 range.

I say it you take the time to test it for once to see and maybe then you will realize it.

Pirschjaeger
08-10-2005, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
well hes just not giving the full infomation about why he believes what he types

he's talking about full trim turning

its true with full trim you can overcome the elevator for high speed turning . . . . . but you get the same advantage regardless of plane , you also get mean blackout from hard high-speed turning

its not a "109" effect . . . . . . rather a patch "fix"

this is a general discussion forum - anyone who flys this game a lot , to its limits , has stuff to share

I've read two different interviews of 109 pilots. One was Rall and the other I forget. In both interviews it was asked about the 109's elevator. Both times the pilot said the same thing;"it was never a problem". When you saw the enemy you set the trim to a lot of elevator and the problem was gone. When flying level with a lot of elevator trim you had to push hard on the stick.

It seems to me that this is modelled well in the sim. Why does the whine over the 109 elevator keep coming up? I just don't get it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Fritz

Hristo_
08-10-2005, 11:24 PM
Trim recovery is authentic, as by pilot accounts. 109 had two trim wheels left of the pilot seat. They could be turned quite fast. No, you don't need 10 seconds to turn them. This is the same in any other plane.

Trim turning has quite some lag built into it. Even too much, in my opinion. How long does it take to turn a wheel with your left hand for 180 degrees ?

I don't see how anyone can use it to anything else but when in trouble. It can be used to evade attacks at high speed, but not more than any other plane can use its own elevator, without trim. Also, it gives you blackout at same Gs as with elevator. Even worse, due to trim delay, you can't just let go off the stick and recover. You have to trim back and if you are not fast enough, your plane will keep turning without the pilot being able to move the controls (trim included). Quite different from normal blackout.

The other point is "no compressibility in 109 elevator". This simply is not true. Compare 109 elevator to 190, P-51 or even Spitfire elevator. End of story.

Pirschjaeger
08-10-2005, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
at least i fly all aircraft always.

I limit myself to two basic a/c. The reason is simple. If I flew all I could never be good with one. It's like languages. Anyone who speaks many languages will never be great in any. The best you'll manage is being average.

On very rare occasions I'll fly the La'7, Mig, Hurri, or Spit. One thing I have always noticed is that in the first few flights I can kick a$$ easily. But as I continue my skill decreases. To be honest, I have no idea why. But I think this is why and how we get terms from both sides such as "noob" planes.

I think it's best to stick with nore more than 2 plane types if you wanna be above average. As for the argument about the "other" plans' weaknesses and strength, I learn that from their 6. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
08-10-2005, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by Hristo_:
Trim recovery is authentic, as by pilot accounts. 109 had two trim wheels left of the pilot seat. They could be turned quite fast. No, you don't need 10 seconds to turn them. This is the same in any other plane.

Trim turning has quite some lag built into it. Even too much, in my opinion. How long does it take to turn a wheel with your left hand for 180 degrees ?

I don't see how anyone can use it to anything else but when in trouble. It can be used to evade attacks at high speed, but not more than any other plane can use its own elevator, without trim. Also, it gives you blackout at same Gs as with elevator. Even worse, due to trim delay, you can't just let go off the stick and recover. You have to trim back and if you are not fast enough, your plane will keep turning without the pilot being able to move the controls (trim included). Quite different from normal blackout.

The other point is "no compressibility in 109 elevator". This simply is not true. Compare 109 elevator to 190, P-51 or even Spitfire elevator. End of story.

I found the best way to recover from a spin in a 109 it to drop the throttle, full rudder opposite of the spin, stick forward, and use the engine torque to recover. It works pretty quickly and puts my into a diving barrel-role. Nice for quickly getting speed and clearing your 6.

Fritz

LeadSpitter_
08-10-2005, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by Hristo_:
Trim recovery is authentic, as by pilot accounts. 109 had two trim wheels left of the pilot seat. They could be turned quite fast. No, you don't need 10 seconds to turn them. This is the same in any other plane.

Trim turning has quite some lag built into it. Even too much, in my opinion. How long does it take to turn a wheel with your left hand for 180 degrees ?

I don't see how anyone can use it to anything else but when in trouble. It can be used to evade attacks at high speed, but not more than any other plane can use its own elevator, without trim. Also, it gives you blackout at same Gs as with elevator. Even worse, due to trim delay, you can't just let go off the stick and recover. You have to trim back and if you are not fast enough, your plane will keep turning without the pilot being able to move the controls (trim included). Quite different from normal blackout.

The other point is "no compressibility in 109 elevator". This simply is not true. Compare 109 elevator to 190, P-51 or even Spitfire elevator. End of story.

again no idea what your speaking about, try reading the pages of your stories. do you even have trim on a slider are you playing a different version then 4.01? where do you come up with this stuff hristo?

Badsight.
08-10-2005, 11:41 PM
what he said about elevator compressability is entirely accurate

untill you trim

planes turn harder with trim . . . . . but only at high speeds where their elevator authority is diminished

at the usual DF speed of 300 kmh you get zero extra deflection from trim , at 800 Kmh the Bf109s poor elevator authority is transformed with trim

FritzGryphon
08-10-2005, 11:49 PM
How long does it take to turn a wheel with your left hand for 180 degrees ?


The trim wheel needs to be turned many times even for small trim corrections. The revolutions required to do a lot of trim all at once would take some time. It's not 180 degrees, full trim.

And it was never 10 seconds. Neutral to full tail heavy was merely 3.5-4 seconds in 3.04. Most normal trim corrections could be made in 1 second or less (trim for takeoff, landing or whatnot), less than the time it'd take your hand to go from the throttle to the trim wheel in real life.

Hristo_
08-10-2005, 11:56 PM
Many times for small corrections ? How many ? For how small ? Please quantify this, as it may be misleading to some.

How many revolutions for full range of movement ? That would be fairly interesting to know.

Regarding 109 - does trim wheel affect the trim tabs or the whole elvator ?

Afaik, Fw 190 had electrically operated trim. How fast was that ? Should we be looking at different trim speeds as well ?

LeadSpitter_
08-11-2005, 01:07 AM
how fast can you move your stick with 80lbs of stick pressure, how fast can you move the trim at 560-800km/h when your arms pinned to the seat or in high g's reaching.

this is exactly why civilian input of low speed lightweight carbon fiber or aluminum lightweight modern cessna nose down, take off, nose up landing trim dial rotary knob which is so responsive slow speed drinking tea have no idea or any clue at all how trim should work on wwii aircraft.

Hetzer_II
08-11-2005, 01:19 AM
"Regarding 109 - does trim wheel affect the trim tabs or the whole elvator "

Its affects the whole elevator.. the tabs can only be "used" on ground...

LeadSpitter_
08-11-2005, 01:20 AM
S hetzerII, long time no see. Its good to see you back posting again.

pourshot
08-11-2005, 01:47 AM
With regards to trim use one the 109 most quotes mention the need to trim before a dive, if done when already at great speed it could result in over correction and destruction of the airframe.

Hristo_
08-11-2005, 02:11 AM
Thanks Pourshot, seems we are on to something here.

So, how can one overcorrect if it takes many turns of the trim wheel for even the slightest corrections ?

By 5 complete turns too many ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

pourshot
08-11-2005, 02:20 AM
Originally posted by Hristo_:
Thanks Pourshot, seems we are on to something here.

So, how can one overcorrect if it takes many turns of the trim wheel for even the slightest corrections ?

By 5 complete turns too many ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I would suggest that at 800kph only very small movements would be needed to bring to nose up to far, this problem is not limited to 109's by the way.

I would suggest a visit to Zenos warbirds site to download some of his training films it shows well what a pilot had to do and when to do it.(well on US planes anyway)

Hristo_
08-11-2005, 03:26 AM
If so, then our trim is too slow. Don't you think ?

pourshot
08-11-2005, 03:28 AM
I think it was any faster it would be too hard to use.

pourshot
08-11-2005, 03:45 AM
Me 109 G:
"The maximum speed not to be exceeded was 750kmh. Once I was flying above Helsinki as I received a report of Russkies in the South. There was a big Cumulus cloud on my way there but I decided to fly right through. I centered the controls and then something extraordinary happened. I must have involuntarily entered into half-roll and dive. The planes had individual handling characteristics; even though I held the turning indicator in the middle, the plane kept going faster and faster, I pulled the stick, yet the plane went into an ever steeper dive.
In the same time she started rotating, and I came out of the cloud with less than one kilometer of altitude. I started pulling the stick, nothing happened, I checked the speed, it was about 850kmh. I tried to recover the plane but the stick was as if locked and nothing happened. I broke into a sweat of agony: now I am going into the sea and cannot help it. I pulled with both hands, groaning and by and by she started recovering, she recovered more, I pulled and pulled, but the surface of the sea approached, I thought I was going to crash. I kept pulling until I saw that I had survived. The distance between me and the sea may have been five meters. I pulled up and found myself on the coast of Estonia.
If I in that situation had used the vertical trim the wings would have been broken off. A minimal trim movement has a strong effect on wings when the speed limit has been exceded. I had 100kmh overspeed! It was out of all limits.
The Messerschmitt's wings were fastened with two bolts. When I saw the construction I had thought that they are strong enough but in this case I was thinking, when are they going to break
- What about the phenomenon called "buffeting" or vibration, was there any?
No, I did not encounter it even in the 850kmh speed."
- Ky¶sti Karhila, Finnish fighter ace. 32 victories. Source: Interview by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association.

Hetzer_II
08-11-2005, 03:51 AM
@Leadspitter

Hi!
I wrote you some messages via hyperlobby last week... you didnt got them? I already thought you were not talking to such an "bluewhiner" like me anymore ;-)

Hope to see you the next days...

s!

LeadSpitter_
08-11-2005, 03:56 AM
I was a blue whiner but in sturmovik the original about the 190a8 filled with concrete http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pirschjaeger
08-11-2005, 05:15 AM
Originally posted by pourshot:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Me 109 G:
"The maximum speed not to be exceeded was 750kmh. Once I was flying above Helsinki as I received a report of Russkies in the South. There was a big Cumulus cloud on my way there but I decided to fly right through. I centered the controls and then something extraordinary happened. I must have involuntarily entered into half-roll and dive. The planes had individual handling characteristics; even though I held the turning indicator in the middle, the plane kept going faster and faster, I pulled the stick, yet the plane went into an ever steeper dive.
In the same time she started rotating, and I came out of the cloud with less than one kilometer of altitude. I started pulling the stick, nothing happened, I checked the speed, it was about 850kmh. I tried to recover the plane but the stick was as if locked and nothing happened. I broke into a sweat of agony: now I am going into the sea and cannot help it. I pulled with both hands, groaning and by and by she started recovering, she recovered more, I pulled and pulled, but the surface of the sea approached, I thought I was going to crash. I kept pulling until I saw that I had survived. The distance between me and the sea may have been five meters. I pulled up and found myself on the coast of Estonia.
If I in that situation had used the vertical trim the wings would have been broken off. A minimal trim movement has a strong effect on wings when the speed limit has been exceded. I had 100kmh overspeed! It was out of all limits.
The Messerschmitt's wings were fastened with two bolts. When I saw the construction I had thought that they are strong enough but in this case I was thinking, when are they going to break
- What about the phenomenon called "buffeting" or vibration, was there any?
No, I did not encounter it even in the 850kmh speed."
- Ky¶sti Karhila, Finnish fighter ace. 32 victories. Source: Interview by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He must have been at a pretty high speed going into the cloud. Of course IL-2 is just a game but the same thing has happened to me. I only like clouds when the enemy is on my 6.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
08-11-2005, 05:16 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hristo_:
Many times for small corrections ? How many ? For how small ? Please quantify this, as it may be misleading to some.

How many revolutions for full range of movement ? That would be fairly interesting to know.

Regarding 109 - does trim wheel affect the trim tabs or the whole elvator ?

Afaik, Fw 190 had electrically operated trim. How fast was that ? Should we be looking at different trim speeds as well ?

Without the original blueprints or specs this will be almost impossible or accurate to answer.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fehler
08-11-2005, 07:57 AM
With all due respect Lead...

Trim works the same, in game, on all planes. All of them. German, Japanese, English, even U.S.

Therefore....... Whining solely about Luftwaffe trim shows OBVIOUS bias.

In the game, trim works sort of how it works in real life. There is no delay when trimming. Start turning the wheel or dial, and the effects start to happen.

But likewise, the way the game represents trim is not totally like how it works in real life. As alreay pointed out in the thread, setting trim at high speeds can cause, and often does, over correction. This in turn can cause a host of obvious problems we do not experience in the game.

I liked the way the game simulated trim in 3.04 much better. But I cant say it is not more correct now. But, it is probably as right as it can get, given the current game coding.

It would have been nice for Oleg to tell us why he changed it to it's current state. I am hoping it is not the way it will be in BoB.

p1ngu666
08-11-2005, 09:32 AM
irl a pilot would haveto choose to take a hand off the stick, to adust trim so ofcourse u cant pull so hard on stick, but u hope trim will overcome that and more http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
ofcourse, if your already pulling G i imagine ith would be hard to set trim, as your arm is x times as heavy, so be hard to control.

109 should stiffen up a fair bit as speed increases, including alirons

Pirschjaeger
08-11-2005, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
irl a pilot would haveto choose to take a hand off the stick, to adust trim so ofcourse u cant pull so hard on stick, but u hope trim will overcome that and more http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
ofcourse, if your already pulling G i imagine ith would be hard to set trim, as your arm is x times as heavy, so be hard to control.

109 should stiffen up a fair bit as speed increases, including alirons

I'm pretty sure they set the trim just before combat(when they spot the enemy)and leave it until the fight is over. That's what I've read about the 109 anyway.

Fritz

p1ngu666
08-11-2005, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
irl a pilot would haveto choose to take a hand off the stick, to adust trim so ofcourse u cant pull so hard on stick, but u hope trim will overcome that and more http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
ofcourse, if your already pulling G i imagine ith would be hard to set trim, as your arm is x times as heavy, so be hard to control.

109 should stiffen up a fair bit as speed increases, including alirons

I'm pretty sure they set the trim just before combat(when they spot the enemy)and leave it until the fight is over. That's what I've read about the 109 anyway.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

oh yes, u trim because u is lazy, and it helps plane fly better http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, but in dogfight where your turning diving climbing etc then it becomes a issue...
if your in a straightish dive, then u can adust the trim ok http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Pirschjaeger
08-11-2005, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
irl a pilot would haveto choose to take a hand off the stick, to adust trim so ofcourse u cant pull so hard on stick, but u hope trim will overcome that and more http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
ofcourse, if your already pulling G i imagine ith would be hard to set trim, as your arm is x times as heavy, so be hard to control.

109 should stiffen up a fair bit as speed increases, including alirons

I'm pretty sure they set the trim just before combat(when they spot the enemy)and leave it until the fight is over. That's what I've read about the 109 anyway.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

oh yes, u trim because u is lazy, and it helps plane fly better http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, but in dogfight where your turning diving climbing etc then it becomes a issue...
if your in a straightish dive, then u can adust the trim ok http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I were in a straight dive, the only thing being adjusted would be my stomach. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Fritz

p1ngu666
08-11-2005, 10:47 AM
well, your ears may pop, and u may get bends... gases in your tummy also change, its mostly todo with air pressure, so if the cockpit pressureises slightly in the dive, then it wont be so bad, or it might be worse too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Pirschjaeger
08-11-2005, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
well, your ears may pop, and u may get bends... gases in your tummy also change, its mostly todo with air pressure, so if the cockpit pressureises slightly in the dive, then it wont be so bad, or it might be worse too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

As long as I don't spill my beer. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

About pressurizing the cockpit, no problem. Cabbage and beans 1/2 hour before flight time should do it.

And when I fly I don't need trim. Although I keep my hair short, I wear a hairnet.

Fritz

geetarman
08-11-2005, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
irl a pilot would haveto choose to take a hand off the stick, to adust trim so ofcourse u cant pull so hard on stick, but u hope trim will overcome that and more http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
ofcourse, if your already pulling G i imagine ith would be hard to set trim, as your arm is x times as heavy, so be hard to control.

109 should stiffen up a fair bit as speed increases, including alirons

I'm pretty sure they set the trim just before combat(when they spot the enemy)and leave it until the fight is over. That's what I've read about the 109 anyway.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, if so, they must have had to work hard to control the plane if any speed, pitch or power settings were changed!