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View Full Version : Go to church to worship... John Kerry???



Demon_Mustang
12-16-2004, 10:45 PM
There is a church here in Miami, not sure if it's a national thing, but the United Church of Christ has a commercial where bouncers in front of a church only let in rich white heterosexuals, and the message is "Jesus didn't turn anyone away, neither do we."

That seems innocent enough, but then I thought, "hm, what church DOES turn people away?" And frankly, I can't think of a single one. Almost all of my friends are highly religious, so churches are not foreign to me even though I'm not, and nobody has ever turned me away because I am a minority. Also, these churches are not in predominantly black neighborhoods, yet about 30-35% of the people in there are black, there are also large numbers of hispanics most of the time too. So I wonder, what is the real meaning behind this ad.

Well, Thor, Geist, Hornet, this might piss you off a little. This church is advertising itself as a left-wing liberal church. A spokesman for the church said, "Right-Wing Conservatives do not own God." As if churches are at all political...

Sure they are against abortion, but it's not because they like Bush and support the war. Churches generally don't support abortion for a very simple and logical RELIGIOUS reason. They believe that the baby has a soul from the moment it is conceived. That means abortion is murdering a baby with a soul. That's why they disagree with abortion.

People go to church to worship their god, not to worship their politicians. This politically motivated church is despicable if you ask me. And for them to paint other churches to be politically motivated for the conservatives is ludicrous. The ONLY time in south florida where I've heard of the church condoning a political candidate during a regular sunday congregation was when John Kerry illegally ran a political rally in a church down here by where I live during Sunday service. The closest I've ever seen conservative groups to churches have been outside on the sidewalk outside of church grounds. And most of those are independent and are almost always solely focused on the issue of abortion.

Also, it pisses me off that they continuously try to paint conservatives as the racist ones. But when it comes time to act, we have a clear picture who is the real racist ones. In 1964 when the Civil Rights Act was being voted on, the Senate (I think, maybe it's the House, but I believe it's the Senate) needs 2/3 vote to end the filibuster in order to pass the bill. If it was up to the democrats, it wouldn't have been passed, not even 2/3 of the democrats voted for it, while over 80% of the republicans voted for it. So it's because of the Republicans that black people can vote.

Hm, it looks like when it came time to act, the democrats sat on their hands...

So how can we let these people get away with such ridiculous messages? That churches are turning people away, CRAZY, no church I have ever seen refused to take someone, they GLADLY try to convert as many people as possible, they even go out of their way to bug people to convert, much less tell someone "no."

I'm not white, I'm definitely a minority, in fact, I'm part of one of the smallest minority groups in the USA, yet, every church I've been to have greeted me with big smiles, people bugging me to join the church, absolutely, possitively, no negative sentiment what-so-ever. But according to this ad, these are supposedly the churches that would have turned me away with the use of a big bouncer because they are the evil racist conservatives. Give me a flipping break...

Demon_Mustang
12-16-2004, 10:45 PM
There is a church here in Miami, not sure if it's a national thing, but the United Church of Christ has a commercial where bouncers in front of a church only let in rich white heterosexuals, and the message is "Jesus didn't turn anyone away, neither do we."

That seems innocent enough, but then I thought, "hm, what church DOES turn people away?" And frankly, I can't think of a single one. Almost all of my friends are highly religious, so churches are not foreign to me even though I'm not, and nobody has ever turned me away because I am a minority. Also, these churches are not in predominantly black neighborhoods, yet about 30-35% of the people in there are black, there are also large numbers of hispanics most of the time too. So I wonder, what is the real meaning behind this ad.

Well, Thor, Geist, Hornet, this might piss you off a little. This church is advertising itself as a left-wing liberal church. A spokesman for the church said, "Right-Wing Conservatives do not own God." As if churches are at all political...

Sure they are against abortion, but it's not because they like Bush and support the war. Churches generally don't support abortion for a very simple and logical RELIGIOUS reason. They believe that the baby has a soul from the moment it is conceived. That means abortion is murdering a baby with a soul. That's why they disagree with abortion.

People go to church to worship their god, not to worship their politicians. This politically motivated church is despicable if you ask me. And for them to paint other churches to be politically motivated for the conservatives is ludicrous. The ONLY time in south florida where I've heard of the church condoning a political candidate during a regular sunday congregation was when John Kerry illegally ran a political rally in a church down here by where I live during Sunday service. The closest I've ever seen conservative groups to churches have been outside on the sidewalk outside of church grounds. And most of those are independent and are almost always solely focused on the issue of abortion.

Also, it pisses me off that they continuously try to paint conservatives as the racist ones. But when it comes time to act, we have a clear picture who is the real racist ones. In 1964 when the Civil Rights Act was being voted on, the Senate (I think, maybe it's the House, but I believe it's the Senate) needs 2/3 vote to end the filibuster in order to pass the bill. If it was up to the democrats, it wouldn't have been passed, not even 2/3 of the democrats voted for it, while over 80% of the republicans voted for it. So it's because of the Republicans that black people can vote.

Hm, it looks like when it came time to act, the democrats sat on their hands...

So how can we let these people get away with such ridiculous messages? That churches are turning people away, CRAZY, no church I have ever seen refused to take someone, they GLADLY try to convert as many people as possible, they even go out of their way to bug people to convert, much less tell someone "no."

I'm not white, I'm definitely a minority, in fact, I'm part of one of the smallest minority groups in the USA, yet, every church I've been to have greeted me with big smiles, people bugging me to join the church, absolutely, possitively, no negative sentiment what-so-ever. But according to this ad, these are supposedly the churches that would have turned me away with the use of a big bouncer because they are the evil racist conservatives. Give me a flipping break...

MT_UnclePhil
12-17-2004, 12:26 AM
Demon,

I wouldnt compare what a church is doing with the democrats. Why you brought up the issue with democrats not voting for blacks, i have no idea. You have a thread here saying that what this church is doing is a bunch of horsesh**. But somehow its the democrats fault.

I am myself a democrat and there are alot of people like me that think if a church discriminates they are wrong. I think most AMERICANS think that way as well. By your post it clearly looks as though you are making democrats out to be racist...which isnt true.

Failure to comply will result in being planted in front of a big screen TV playing michael moore's videos over and over untill you convert...to the darkkkk siiiide http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

MDS_Geist
12-17-2004, 05:46 AM
I'm not sure why odd behavior from Christians would "piss me off," and this is really nothing other than religious consumerism. They're trying to gain worshippers from either those who feel disenfranchised for whatever reason or from other churches. That's been a foundation stone of inter-Christian politics for centuries, and can hardly be seen as surprising.

The statement about "right wing conservatives" isn't so surprising or political either. Many liberal Christians have real problems with what they see as fundamentalism and would prefer to see Christianity be more open rather than have people like Falwell spewing venom. They probably are a "left wing liberal church," which likely means that they embrace homosexuals and people's freedom to choose. Those have religious issues whch have become political ones, and it would stand to reason that people with those views would prefer to have representation that shares or is at least highly sympathetic to those views.

Like it or not (and I don't), but many churches have seen fit to involve themselves in politics to the point of telling their members how to vote - and that isn't limited to Democracts, but includes Republicans and other candidates as well. Some are blatant while others are more subtle, but either way it happens fairly frequently and does not violate the Establishment clause. It may not seem right or fair, but there it is. Religious groups often serve as caucses, focud group and lobbying groups simply by their existence and constituency.

Sadly yes, there are churches that turn people away. Now I don't know any that have bouncers, but people are turned away just the same. If you're a homosexual and you're sitting in the pews listening to the preacher speak about the evils of homosexuality, that's pretty much a message for you to get out of their church - it's no longer your own. Just as obvious as the bouncer, but far harsher.

Ambassador
12-17-2004, 06:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Well, Thor, Geist, Hornet, this might piss you off a little. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hey! What about me!? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Hornet57
12-17-2004, 07:19 AM
Well I am not pissed off or surprised Demon because the church is nothing but big business disquised in "sheperds" cloathing. I do not attend church for that reason. If anybody think there is no politics in religion think again.
The reverants Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are suppose to be reverants right? well what have they accomplished other then the division of the races? Who have they helped other than them selfs?
Any way they saw how Bush won the elections so now they are going to be "preaching" for the next 4 years to show their "religious" side. They need to build their congragation a bit.

crtChunk72
12-17-2004, 10:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MDS_Geist:
If you're a homosexual and you're sitting in the pews listening to the preacher speak about the evils of homosexuality, that's pretty much a message for you to get out of their church - it's no longer your own. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with Geist... I believe this was the message from the commercial (which I've seen, up here in New England... why?)

Leep
12-17-2004, 11:37 AM
I am a little confused by the statement that if you are a homosexual and sit in church that you might be upset if the Pastor makes a statement why the bible says homosexuality is a sin.

if you are a homosexual and you enter a church that follows the teachings of the Bible- I would think that you might eventually may hear something to that effect.

Is a Pastor or Minister to stay away from that message simply because there might be a homosexual sitting somewhere in the pews.
Next you will have us believe that he should not preach against adultery or lusting after another mans' wife or possessions.

Anyone who enters a church has to expect to be singled out at some time-because we all commit sin regardless of what it may be-and homosexuality is just another example of a sin in Gods' eyes.
Are we at the point now where we pick and choose what sin is in and what sin is frowned upon.?
That's like going into a movie house and being insulted and outraged when suddenly a movie appears on the screen.
If you do not like the message-don't kill the messenger.
I am positive-because i have seen many examples of them- that if you are homosexual and want to attend a church that condones your actions, why you will have little problems finding one.

Just don't go into a conventional church-one that follows the teaching of the Bible-and expect the congregation and the pastor to change its ways and teachings because you are uncomfortable with the message.

Seems pretty simple to me.

Leep Out:

Demon_Mustang
12-17-2004, 11:23 PM
Uh, chunk, I'm not sure if you're seeing the same commercial then, because I think only one of the people the bouncers appear to turn down are portrayed as homosexuals. The rest were minorities, and I'm saying this message they are trying to paint that other churches turn people away, while their church is the only one that doesn't, is BS.


BTW Unclephil, their political stance was their saying, not mine, they said it themselves that the purpose of this church was for a liberal/democrat cause. It was in an interview with one of their PR people that was in a newspaper I used as a placemat, lol. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

MDS_Geist
12-18-2004, 04:11 PM
Now Leep, you're going to have to explain this one to me again.

In the past week, I have heard five different Christians cites Leviticus as the reason why they have a problem with homosexuals. Except that as Christians, they don't follow the laws of Leviticus and one of them was even saying this to me while eating pork. So clearly, this makes no sense. So what's with the "pick and choose" Christianity? Either you accept the law or you do not.

There is also a difference between "anyone" who enters a chrch being singled out and specific groups regularly singled out and demonized. Now, if the pastor/priest/minister/elder/whatever decides to spend a good bit of their time preaching about the evils of speeding or rolling stops, I'd imagine that would be a but different for most of the driving congregation. But that simply isn't the case and there is a large dichotomoy between loving your fellow man and hating homosexuals. It isn't even an issue of "love the sinner and hate the sin," since it is often homosexuals themselves, not homosexuality in and of itself that are being demonized.

Demon_Mustang
12-19-2004, 01:13 AM
I don't know, the times I've been to church with friends, I've never heard them ever even mention homosexuality...

MDS_Geist
12-19-2004, 05:01 AM
That's probably a good thing Demon. There are far more important things to preach about than people's private lives.

savageone
12-19-2004, 11:07 AM
well, i must say i agree with demon with regard to i've never been to a church that has pushed me away, and ive been to alot of different denominations. albeit all variations of christianity. i will also agree that churches do pack a political punch, although no more than any other orginazation like afl/cio or the like. i agree with leep, there have been many times i have felt uncomfortable with a message on sunday morning. most people think that they are not as bad as charles manson or stallin or hitler or bin laden, but the fact of the matter is in Gods eyes...all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. men through out time have taken scripture and molded it to how or what they percieve it to be or how they think God meant it to mean. The Bible is not a pick and choose what you like buffet. it is black and white. the main difference between "religion(s)" and christianity is pretty simple.

religion = living your life by a set of rules in order gain entrance to heaven (or insert place of eternity, iehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gifaradice etc.)

christianity = a relationship with God

when Jesus came to earth he shattered everything. the rules of the old testiment were no longer. the high priests were no longer the only people that were sacred/holy enough to speak to and have a relationship with God. you as a comnon person could have a personal relationship with God. Jesus was also political, pray for your leaders...give to ceasar what ceasar is due. now to the comfort thing..when you accept Jesus as your personal savior, you repent. this is not a get out of jail free card. when you repent you have remorse for the sin you have commited, it does not mean that you wont sin again, but it does mean that you make a conscious effort to remove that sin from your life. lets use homesexuality as an example. does God dislike you or hate you because you are gay. no. does God condone your lifestyle? no. how then are you to be a gay christian? its simply called abstinance. is it simple? probably not. but im sure its no harder than alot of issues that people have to make the same about of sacrifice and effort to keep themselves right with God. i cannot nor will i force my beliefs on someone else. but i can and will defend my beliefs. happy holidays to all. peace.

MDS_Geist
12-19-2004, 11:18 AM
Savageone,

If the "rules of the Old Testament [sic] were no longer," then why is it (as I asked Leep earlier) that Christians cites books such a Leviticus in their condemnation of homosexuals? As you say "the Bible is not a pick and choose what you like buffet." So either it is or it is not.

You also seem to be laboring under some rather fundamental misunderstandings of history and Judiasm. Nowhere in Judiasm is the belief that any one person is holier than any other and the high priests (who in the time of Jesus were Roman appointees) did not speak with God. Jesus's teaching and political thought were wholly in keeping with Rabbinic Judaism - the Judaism that is practiced today. Jesus's followers are the ones who made the changes.

savageone
12-19-2004, 11:49 AM
i cannot say what scripture one church or another uses or doesnt use with regard to homosexuality. its quit simple to deduce even without involving religion. males and females are here to reproduce. a homosexual relationship provides nothing but personal gratification. the rules of the old testament are for the most part if not wholley the same rules followed by the Jewish faith today. Although christianity believes and uses scripture from the old testament, the rules for how to live in order to please God and gain entrance into heaven are no more. no more an eye for an eye, no more sacrifices of your best livestock or whatever. in the old testament sin was forgiven with a sacrifice of blood. thats what Jesus did with his death. i dont believe i personally condemed homosexuals as people, i dont think that most churches do either. the lifestlye they certainly condem, the people, no. as far as misunderstanding of history, i dont believe anyone was allowed in the "holy of holies" but the most high priest of the Jewish faith. and when he did enter it was with a rope tied to his ankles that should he be striken dead he could be pulled out, as no one else could enter. the common Jew was not allowed to enter the main temple. i mean i guess i could be incorrect on this, and if i am, it was not meant to offend, it is what i have seen, read and been taught. i have not studied Judaism, nor am i a theologian. Jesus teachings were quite different than the accepted teachings of Judaism and Jewish law. granted, the aposotal Paul was responsible for alot of how the christian church was formed and its beliefs. and again i cannot speak for all churches or denominations, but in our church, the teachings of Jesus and the new testament are the basis of what is taught/preached there.

MDS_Geist
12-19-2004, 12:06 PM
No, that doesn't work and I'm here for a ot more than just "to reproduce."

Either you're offering a religious argument or a practical one. Claiming that it is a practical one to take the onus off of religious condemnation doesn't work for the same absurd reason I cited earlier. Speeding is far more dangerous than homosexuality, yet I have yet to hear any Christian expound on the dangers or evils of speeding, while I have heard quite a few do that regarding homosexuality. You would also hear people decrying oral sex from the pulpit - after all, that's just personal gratification. Since a woman's orgasm has no bearing on precreation, is that on the agenda next? So clearly it is a religous problem.

So do you have a problem with homosexuality and/or homosexuals? Is it religiously motivated? What exactly is the gay lifestyle?

The Torah laws are not at all the same laws followed by Jews today and many of them haven't been followed in thousands of years while others were never followed literally. That's a huge mistake right there. Nor were they laws to "gain entrance to heaven." That's a Christian concept and not a Jewish one. Don't read your faith back onto mine - it's a very common mistake and quite a significant one. If you want to use Jewish scripture, at least get them right. There never was "an eye for an eye" practiced.

Only the high priest entered the holy of holies once per year, and no high priest ever died pronouncing the ineffable name. That's one small room in a very alrge Temple. Jews did indeed enter the Temple and the Temple Court was quite a large place. If Jews couldn't enter the Temple, then they wouldn't be able to sacrifice - kind of defeats the purpose.

Jesus's teaching were not at different from Rabbinic (That's Pharisaic) Judaism and are identical to many in the Talmud. Most of what he taught was Jewish law rather commonly taught, thoroghly in keeping with Galilean thought at the time.

I know that you do not mean to offend nor do I intend any offense to you. But you seem to be working under some rather common and significant misuderstanding of Judaism and history.

savageone
12-19-2004, 01:14 PM
i would be interested in learning more about the Jewish faith and its laws and teachings. i cant say its a matter of one person or the other is right or wrong. that will be determined between each person and God. as far as the gay community, i know alot of homosexuals and lesbians. they are nice people. again, do i dislike or condem them as people, no. do i agree with their lifestyle no. a gay lifestyle by my own personal definetion would be a same sex couple living in the same manner as a hetrosexual couple. dont misunderstand me either, it would also include single persons, male or female that exclusivly see/date/have sexual relationships with their same sex. i know these kinds of relationships have existed for centuries. some cultures even embrased it, but i dont think there are any relgions(main stream) that did or do. again, i could be wrong. maybe sometime when you have some time, we could get together on ts or vent, i really would like to learn more. and its certainly more interesting to talk with someone than it is to sit and read. better yet, stop by our server sometime, we can have a few frags too! peace. savage