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XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 12:23 PM
hi,
question: is that the new pilots view in P-51 ?

what about the revi K-14 A...?

I guess the revi is a bit low mounted ?.. or I'm wrong..the game camera view with always the old low hight ?

who can show some more original pilot frontside views ?


http://www.angels19.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/flightsimshow/100-0059_IMG.JPG

XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 12:23 PM
hi,
question: is that the new pilots view in P-51 ?

what about the revi K-14 A...?

I guess the revi is a bit low mounted ?.. or I'm wrong..the game camera view with always the old low hight ?

who can show some more original pilot frontside views ?


http://www.angels19.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/flightsimshow/100-0059_IMG.JPG

XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 12:26 PM
the K-14 is coming later.

and i would take it if i would fly a Fw190 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.jagdgeschwader53.flugzeugwerk.net/diverses/franky.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 12:38 PM
hi,
here a pic ...original...OK.. game is game..

http://members.optushome.com.au/gjmustang/picsmodel/mod01.html

XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 03:52 PM
http://members.optushome.com.au/gjmustang/picsmodel/mod01.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 03:54 PM
http://members.optushome.com.au/gjmustang/picsmodel/mod10.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 04:04 PM
Do we have a move up revisystem to gunsight view in game ?
by toggling (Shift+F1) ? Any informations to this ?


http://members.optushome.com.au/gjmustang/picsmodel/mod09.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 04:23 PM
a gunsight view..

http://www.p51.mustangsmustangs.com/Pics/Military/EarlyYears/11.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 03:30 PM
re,..

and here a cockpit with revi ..

any comments from the designers..to the game forward view ?



http://community.webshots.com/s/image5/1/25/94/72112594tuiowC_ph.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 03:30 PM
..ups..


http://community.webshots.com/s/image5/1/25/94/72112594tuiowC_ph.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 03:32 PM
http://community.webshots.com/s/image5/1/25/94/72112594tuiowC_ph.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 05:55 PM
..some probs with this forum software...anyway..



http://community.webshots.com/s/image5/1/25/94/72112594tuiowC_ph.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 11:18 PM
Excellent shot! The cockpit looks astounding! I can't wait to take the P-51 up for some flying!

http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/icefire/icefire_tempest.jpg
"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few." - Winston Churchill

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 09:33 AM
hi.

..VW-IceFire..did You ever sit in a correct restorated P-51 cockpit with Ka14 revi mounted...? Or did You saw one nearby in a museum or in some well documented books ?

I'm iterest to get some pics from the gunsight view in game (shift+F1).. any links to this at NEC ?



VW-IceFire wrote:
- Excellent shot! The cockpit looks astounding! I
- can't wait to take the P-51 up for some flying!

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 10:08 AM
hi,

doc revi K-14A


http://www.geocities.com/koala51d/photo/k14diag.jpg



http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/P-51/51K14.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 12:12 PM
starfighter that is a K-14 alright, but it is not a Revi.

The German gyroscopic gunsight was the Revi EZ42. Revi is German not American, or British.


http://www.thundercycle.com/photos/dropdead2.gif



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

Message Edited on 10/09/0307:14AM by MiloMorai

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 12:37 PM
hi,
..indeed exactly..

by the way... the pilot is sitting very deep in this modelled P-51 view...(does it depends on this stupid camera view in gameengine ?)...
what about the hight of the gyroscopic ..seems to be too low ?

small yellow labels ..you can see only from the front...ok ..not so much important..



MiloMorai wrote:
- starfighter that is a K-14 alright, but it is not a
- Revi.
-
- The German gyroscopic gunsight was the Revi EZ42.
- Revi is German not American, or British.
--
- Message Edited on 10/09/03Ô 07:14AM by MiloMorai

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 01:03 PM
Milo

ReVi is a common word for a gunsight in German language (for an optical gunsight).



"......und mein Herz steigt wie ein Falke in die L├╝fte!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

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XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 01:13 PM
And to Starfighter

Here an inflight shot from 484786 code 5M*K. In shows clearly the pilot's view. It also shows the pilot has a clear view to the upper cover of the engine. But I'm sure that pilot is wrong./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



http://mypage.bluewin.ch/a-z/kimura-hei/prove1.jpg




"......und mein Herz steigt wie ein Falke in die L├╝fte!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif


http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/Forums/

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 01:19 PM
Here another one

Sorry for the size.

You can clearly see how high the eyes of the pilot are positioned.

http://mypage.bluewin.ch/a-z/kimura-hei/prove2.jpg




"......und mein Herz steigt wie ein Falke in die L├╝fte!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif


http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/Forums/

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 01:20 PM
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Do understand right: The cockpit view in P-51 is to low -> wrong?

Wasn't there another plane with the same problem ... errr Fw 190 ?



"HyperLobby 4 Ever"

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 01:24 PM
Maybe it's the same as with the FB Me262. Higher position at "F1" and lower position for aiming "Shift+F1"!!!!????? Who knows./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif



"......und mein Herz steigt wie ein Falke in die L├╝fte!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif


http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/Forums/



Message Edited on 10/09/0301:35PM by KIMURA

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 03:15 PM
hi,
..Kimura ..that's the point..hope this pic was not taken by a camera on top of pilots helmet..but it seems ..coming from behind the pilots seat...
..anyway..the camera view in the game(engine) is producing mistakes..to low settings..(same to FW190/ + other planes)..

the Me 262 view was fixed a little bit too much ..but better than the first pics in development in the past ..

I guess also the gyroscope is mounted too low...

any links too a gunsight view of the P-51 in game at NEC ?




KIMURA wrote:
- And to Starfighter
-
- Here an inflight shot from 484786 code 5M*K. In
- shows clearly the pilot's view. It also shows the
- pilot has a clear view to the upper cover of the
- engine. But I'm sure that pilot is wrong.<img
-

ZG77_Nagual
10-09-2003, 03:21 PM
Guys, I think you kind of hunker down a bit to look through the gunsight. FB pic - (I assume that is what its from) looks fantastic - great forward view in this plane.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/whiner.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 03:26 PM
Hmm, the picture 2, of BBD, clearly proves the view, showed on picture 1 (cockpit view). Chin of the pilot is at the upper edge of the dashboard cover. But no so in FB.

IMHO the FB Pony cockpit view is absolute to low to be accurate.



"......und mein Herz steigt wie ein Falke in die L├╝fte!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif


http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/Forums/

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 03:28 PM
I had the opportunity to sit inside a P-38 cockpit at this years Chino Airshow. The P38 was just the forward part, blocked up horizontal. It was useful this way, in a static position, to be able to align the sight with "targets" above, below, left/right, and more forward/back and even very close up to the combinor/reflector sight. (American term /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif ).

I had a digital camera, 28-80mm adjustable FL and took a variety of picture from different angles.

I also naturally, "played" figher pilot (anyone on the board who wouldn't !) and looked all around as if for targets/sightings, etc.

Some observations:

1. No matter how you model solid framing, the limitations imposed by the choice of FOV/angle and pilot position are so far off of what a pilot can do, it is sad.

2. There hugely dramatic differences between the FL of the pictures and the location I tood them from.

Conclusion: Altough I respect the "Full real" desire, the limitations relative the REAL real are so disparate, that it truly is worth relooking at alternatives:

a. "frameless canopies" - toggle option ?
b. "much thinner canopies" -toggle option ?
c. "semi-transparent canopies"




" The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down ": General Chuck Yeager, USAF, describing his first confrontation with a Me262 - - -
" Aggressiveness was a fundamental to success in air-to-air combat and if you ever caught a fighter pilot in a defensive mood you had him licked before you started shooting ": Captain David McCampbell, USN, leading U.S. Navy ace in W.W.II.

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 03:29 PM
hi,

..yes right..compare to FW-view/Me 262... believe me..

..the real P-51 gunsight view is posted above ..any comments ?

Do You have a link of the P-51 gunsight view(shift+F1)in game ?...otherwise the debate is theoretical...



ZG77_Nagual wrote:
- Guys, I think you kind of hunker down a bit to look
- through the gunsight. FB pic - (I assume that is
- what its from) looks fantastic - great forward view
- in this plane.
-

ZG77_Nagual
10-09-2003, 03:37 PM
As long as the views are 'relatively' accurate - that is the advantages/disadvantages of aircraft relative to one another or more or less accurate - I have no problem. I like cockpit on - but I supplement it with outside views and padlock - I think this is closer to real than No cockpit - but in any case it gives a nice sense of 3 dimensionality and it's fun. A simm is going to have limits - I like the immersion of the current cockpits

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/whiner.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 05:11 PM
Take a close look at the photo in the original photo. If you look at the angle at which the screenshot would have been taken, one will see that the view is panning down towards the lower-left portion of the cockpit. IMO there's nothing to worry about with the P-51's cockpit view.

I/JG54^Lukas
He 162 A-2 Cockpit Modeler
...and soon the Hs 129 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 05:33 PM
My Dad flew the thing. I've asked him everything I can think of to ask him about the plane. One of the points I've spent time with is visibility. To him, the Mustang had fantastic visibility. He also flew several other compat types from the AAF, and the P-51's vis was easily the best. I've asked him if the there was trouble seeing over the nose. He says it was the best of any plane he flew until jets.

Next best was the P-47N. The Razorback models of both had much worse visibility than the bubble types.

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 07:31 PM
guys, the P-51 Mustang had an adjustable seat, so all this field of view talking is useless...

SJ

http://www.il2sturmovik.it

Visita il portale italiano di IL-2 Sturmovik!!!

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 07:55 PM
Sternjager wrote:
- guys, the P-51 Mustang had an adjustable seat, so
- all this field of view talking is useless...

As any fighter a/c in WWII./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



"......und mein Herz steigt wie ein Falke in die L├╝fte!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif


http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/Forums/

ZG77_Nagual
10-09-2003, 08:43 PM
right, but your head still has to be in the right position to look through the gunsight

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/whiner.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 08:48 PM
One word. Kurt Tank's Focke-Wulf FW-190.

<center>
---------------------------------------
Fokker G.I
http://www.defensie.nl:30280/home/pictures/7370.jpg
http://www.uvika.dn.ua/av/PLANE/HOLLAND/FOKKER_G-1/Fokker_G-1b_03a-n.jpg
</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 08:49 PM
1) That's lots of words. Even I know that.

2) As opposed to Reverend Chuckton-Smythe's Fw-190?

_____________
Ian Boys
=38=Tatarenko
Kapitan - 38. OIAE

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 08:52 PM
Yes, I sat in a P-51 D at Sonoma County Airfield (STS) in Northern California, it had a fully adjustable seat in terms of height. I personally cranked the thing all the way up and down. Visibility is indeed astounding, you immediately feel like you physically dominate the machine. When you read about Mustang pilots talking about how they felt like they were melded to this plane, you begin to really know what they meant just by sitting in it. You sit right up on top of everything, and you can easily lean your head over left or right and look right over the side. You see a large part of the engine cowling. Uh, that's why they paint it green or black -- so it doesn't shine in your eyes and blind you.

There's a simple fix for this... allow an in-game adjustment for the seat, and allow an adjustment for the gunsight as were allowed in the particular plane being modelled. I'm not sure about other planes, but in a Mustang this would allow you to set the seat where you want it, and re-align the reticle.

P.S., according to Yeager and Anderson, the K-14 was "junk." Yeager's words, not mine. They ignored the settings and never used it. In combat, it was totally impractical to make adjustments to the sight, and the tracking was far too slow to be of any real aid in deflection shooting. This is according to Yeager in his self-titled autobiography.

ZG77_Nagual
10-09-2003, 09:11 PM
Ah yes! The infamous 'Smythe 190'

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/whiner.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 09:26 PM
Today I started photo documenting a wrecked Bf109 e3, and hey-ho! It too had an adjustable seat!

I think the pony view looks great, if that first shot is in-game.No sim will ever get it spot on, but I think the test is whether sim-induced artifacts interfere with your enjoyment of the plane. I also got pictures today of a 37mm armoured windscreen from a hurricane, AFTER attention from a 109! Horrible! I will post them soon!

Cheers!

http://www.triplane.net/remlink/misfits_cirx.JPG

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 09:34 PM
KIMURA wrote:
-
- As any fighter a/c in WWII.

not true Kimura...

as for the K-14 being "junk", it was normal for "the oldies" not to appreciate the K-14, they simply were not trained to /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
the K-14 was introduced fast into combat and most of the pilots received a manual and a quick explanation for it, but who had time to check for manuals? So most of them, used to deflection shooting, used the K-14 in fixed position. If u dont know how to use it properly it must be really stressing to see yr collimator reticle wobbling around!!!

SJ

P.S.
Btw Kimura, GREAT pics!!! Big Beautiful Doll is my new desktop!!! If u have more amazing Pony Pictures like those keep 'em coming! Yes, i'm a ponywhiner-to-be /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.il2sturmovik.it

Visita il portale italiano di IL-2 Sturmovik!!!

Message Edited on 10/10/0302:40AM by Sternjager

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 09:58 PM
- ..some probs with this forum software...anyway..
-
-
-

http://community.webshots.com/s/image5/1/25/94/72112594tuiowC_ph.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 10:18 PM
The K-14 was so bad it was nicknamed "The Nomissum."

Sound it out.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/NAA_logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 10:37 PM
After a 1000-page thread Oleg didn't made an adjustable seat to the Fw109, don't expect him to do it for your mustangs /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned/reincarnation.jpg (http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned/)
Are you damned? (http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned/)
<

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 11:02 PM
Sternj├┬Ąger

I can rescan it with a higher resolution and as bmp-file, if you like. Let me know.

BTW I was referring about the adjustable seat, don't know if you misinterpreted my post./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif



"......und mein Herz steigt wie ein Falke in die L├╝fte!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif


http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/Forums/

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 11:54 PM
no no, i got it right, i just meant that several ww2 aircrafts barely had a seat /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
btw yes, a bigger scan would really be welcome! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

SJ

http://www.il2sturmovik.it

Visita il portale italiano di IL-2 Sturmovik!!!

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 12:07 AM
I would rather suggest the simpler and more effective method of widening the field of views. Like in the LOMAC demo you can set the field of view to 120 degs. That's a really smart feature put in by the developers. Zooming out, the cockpit struts become smaller automatically.

And not only tht but zoomed out you can cover much more area in one glance. It's not perfect, but a major step in the right direction. Just hope that Oleg can do something similar in his BoB.

TBS_TWIGTOTO wrote:

- Conclusion: Altough I respect the "Full real"
- desire, the limitations relative the REAL real are
- so disparate, that it truly is worth relooking at
- alternatives:
-
- a. "frameless canopies" - toggle option ?
- b. "much thinner canopies" -toggle option ?
- c. "semi-transparent canopies"

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 12:12 PM
hi,

..agree..that's are important points ...

professional sims use a field of view(by beamers to a map outside of the Cockpit)...

horizontal View : 150 deg.
vertical View: 40 degs.

next point in desktop game engines: the problem of the camera view ..to different planes..

1)a switch to adjust pilots hight of seat could be helpfull

2) better gunsight view compare to real warbirds is overdue in many combatsims

3) the problems in 3DMax by programming refraction should
respected in the game's camera view ..even also in the
height ..

(re:some more points in old threads about the FW refraction view problems..and overframed designs of armored windscreens.. )



Dnmy wrote:
- I would rather suggest the simpler and more
- effective method of widening the field of views.

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 02:41 PM
The K-14 LCOS (Lead Computing Optical Sight) used TOF (Time of Flight) to calculate the projection of the bullets, using its gyro.

CFS-1's P-51 had this gunsight option on a toggle, in addition to the optical combinor sight.

It really worked well, It would dance and move if you had variable g's. If you steadied down, you could use it quite nice. It worked great with rudder/yaw input.. you could put it on wings of a bandit .. etc.

A number P-51 aces came up and used it quite well.. but if you really have the "in your bones" feeling for deflection shooting with optical combiner, it doesn't add much.

I think it gets newer pilots more gunnery proficient, sooner...

" The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down ": General Chuck Yeager, USAF, describing his first confrontation with a Me262 - - -
" Aggressiveness was a fundamental to success in air-to-air combat and if you ever caught a fighter pilot in a defensive mood you had him licked before you started shooting ": Captain David McCampbell, USN, leading U.S. Navy ace in W.W.II.

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2003, 06:42 AM
Starfighter1 wrote;
"- ..anyway..the camera view in the game(engine) is
- producing mistakes..to low settings..(same to FW190/
- + other planes).."

Agreed, My beloved Stuka being one of them! Herehttp://home1.gte.net/res0rrxk/pictures/view_outside.jpg

is a comparison between the IL2 & the Stuka. Aside from the fact that the windscrean is a little steeper in the IL2 we can see that the profiles of the two planes are very similar. We can see that the reprsentation of the pilots head position is much lower & farther rearward in the Stuka. (Yes I know the external pilot model has nothing to do with the cockpit view. But in this case they are pretty close to what we have in game in the non aiming view,)
A Quick check around the web will show any number of photos of Stukas in flight that show the pilots head at the postion shown for the IL2.

Yet in the Game we have this.
http://home1.gte.net/res0rrxk/pictures/view_inside.jpg
.
Why the desparity? I believe there are two possible reasons. One, some models may suffer from severe texture clipping problems. (Like the Bf-109 wing roots & The Lagg-3 & Hurricane cowling.) If That's the case so be it. Hopefully the new graphics engine in the BoB sim solves this problem.
The second posssibility is that a compromise has been made so that the instruments can be more easily seen in flight. If this is the case I wholeheartedly disagree. I would much rather have an historically correct view outside. Any pilot wants to keep his eyes & his mind "out there" not inside the cockpit. I dont mind at all having to glance down at the instruments.

Just my $.02

Cheers.......Smokin256

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2003, 09:45 AM
hi,
that's only one of the points..but very important..

but remember..outside view design is different to cockpit inside..including games camera view..!!!

the only way: redesign of all 3Dmax base design planes + gunsight views/..that includes all changes in revi/camera height and games engine camera view...

or: some fixes to strong main wrong cockpit views..delete of overframed low poly design and changing the height of revi/camera view(ex FW)

a recode programming to free moving camera view to every plane...hope in next sim !

we need a pic of P-51 gunsight view to discuss more details

some more analyzes and ideas in this thread:

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zukof&tpage=7

http://mezek.valka.cz/texty/filmy/data/bf109f-7-headon.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2003, 10:07 AM
hi,


and here.... Ladies and Gentleman....

with 'Jonny Joystick's' View ...


re..thanks of hack the truth....and enjoy



: any telephone number of this pilot girl available..?



http://www.angels19.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/flightsimshow/100-0082_IMG.JPG


http://mezek.valka.cz/texty/filmy/data/bf109f-7-headon.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2003, 10:23 AM
hi,
and here the link to the angels19...

http://www.angels19.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/flightsimshow/thumbnails.html

http://mezek.valka.cz/texty/filmy/data/bf109f-7-headon.gif