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GoldenEagle1979
06-17-2006, 01:54 AM
Great job on the game oleg. But i live with my pap and hes 86 and served for the USA in the air force. He was a amorer, he told me that the loaded Tracer,ball ammo,armour pircing,and incenerary and folowed again and again ever 4 shots in the p-51's and 47's. We have tons of actual footage of them cliping wings in short bursts. Since it is a 12.7mm 500 grain bullet thats 3 times faster then any cannon. why is it so weak in this game. please fix it oleg for us americans. Please. and keep up the great work 8)

GoldenEagle1979
06-17-2006, 01:54 AM
Great job on the game oleg. But i live with my pap and hes 86 and served for the USA in the air force. He was a amorer, he told me that the loaded Tracer,ball ammo,armour pircing,and incenerary and folowed again and again ever 4 shots in the p-51's and 47's. We have tons of actual footage of them cliping wings in short bursts. Since it is a 12.7mm 500 grain bullet thats 3 times faster then any cannon. why is it so weak in this game. please fix it oleg for us americans. Please. and keep up the great work 8)

WWMaxGunz
06-17-2006, 04:47 AM
From Oleg's posted guns and ammo table:

Browning .50 shoots APIT - AP - HE - AP mass 0.0485 kg, muzzle vlocity 870 m/s

Hispano Mk.I 20mm muzzle velocity at 860 m/s
M4 cannon at 612 m/s
MG 151/20 at 710 m/s
MG/FF at APIT 580, HE 585, MG 690 m/s
MK 103 at APT 752, MG 900, HE 800 m/s --- oh my, oh my! MG shell has higher muzzle velocity!
MK 108 as HEIT 500, MG 525 m/s
NS-37 as HEIT 900, APT 880 m/s -- And now TWO cannon shells with higher muzzle velocity!
NS-45 as HEIT 780, AP 850 m/s
Pak40 as HEIT 770 m/s
ShVAK as 800 m/s all rounds
VYa as 890 m/s all rounds -- And here THREE cannon shells with higher muzzle velocity!

And finally I find NO cannon shells correct muzzle velocities to be half or less of the velocity
of the Browning .50 let alone one third.

Are you checking a memory or just making things up?

VW-IceFire
06-17-2006, 07:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GoldenEagle1979:
Great job on the game oleg. But i live with my pap and hes 86 and served for the USA in the air force. He was a amorer, he told me that the loaded Tracer,ball ammo,armour pircing,and incenerary and folowed again and again ever 4 shots in the p-51's and 47's. We have tons of actual footage of them cliping wings in short bursts. Since it is a 12.7mm 500 grain bullet thats 3 times faster then any cannon. why is it so weak in this game. please fix it oleg for us americans. Please. and keep up the great work 8) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Its actually not that weak in game. If you compare statistics game VS real life the numbers are fairly close.

The biggest problem is not with the wing clipping but what you can damage internally. We don't yet have some components of the internal parts of the planes modeled...like radiators on some aircraft, cooling pipes, oxygen bottles, ammo belts...these things aren't yet part of the modeling. So the weapons that do armor piercing damage like machine guns tend to suffer a bit.

But its not that weak. IF you've found that the .50cal is weak you need to work on two things.

1) Accurate and effective gunnery skills. This takes years...you can't sit down at it for a day and say "ok I'm now a wonder at shooting things in the air".

2) Effective convergence settings.

I'm sure that if you ask about convergence you'll hear that they had a fairly sophisticated setup to ensure that the guns we're doing maximum damage. We don't have quite as sophisticated a setup but with proper convergence settings what you can create is a buzzsaw like effect at a given distance from target. Practice firing on target at that convergence setting (whatever you feel comfortable with - take some time to figure it out) and see how brutally effective it was.

Keep in mind that you won't always have a spectacular ending to an enemy plane like you do with cannons. Sometimes killing all controls, the engine, and the pilot is enough...or even just putting enough holes in one wing to make the plane slowly head for the ground. You don't have to make it distintigate....not all gun camera footage shows that level of destruction.

BSS_CUDA
06-17-2006, 08:40 AM
Lovely, his first post to this forum and he picks this topic http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif my crystal ball tells me you will have a bright future here. "IF" you survive this thread http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

Manu-6S
06-17-2006, 08:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Keep in mind that you won't always have a spectacular ending to an enemy plane like you do with cannons. Sometimes killing all controls, the engine, and the pilot is enough...or even just putting enough holes in one wing to make the plane slowly head for the ground. You don't have to make it distintigate....not all gun camera footage shows that level of destruction. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But he says "We have tons of actual footage of them cliping wings in short bursts." So if he has all that footage I don't think he'll trust you... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

BTW: Yes, please, fix the 0.50 and leave all the rest, who care? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Bye

PS: sorry, I'm usually very quiet, but this thread upsets me.

Manu-6S
06-17-2006, 08:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
Lovely, his first post to this forum and he picks this topic http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif my crystal ball tells me you will have a bright future here. "IF" you survive this thread http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You said it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

SeaFireLIV
06-17-2006, 01:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GoldenEagle1979:
Great job on the game oleg. But i live with my pap and hes 86 and served for the USA in the air force. He was a amorer, he told me that the loaded Tracer,ball ammo,armour pircing,and incenerary and folowed again and again ever 4 shots in the p-51's and 47's. We have tons of actual footage of them cliping wings in short bursts. Since it is a 12.7mm 500 grain bullet thats 3 times faster then any cannon. why is it so weak in this game. please fix it oleg for us americans. Please. and keep up the great work 8) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Er, what your Pap says there doesn`t actually indicate that 0.50s are too weak in the sim.

FritzGryphon
06-17-2006, 02:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Since it is a 12.7mm 500 grain bullet thats 3 times faster then any cannon </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um.. the M2 bullets are hardly 10-20% faster than 20mm cannons. Some other types of canons have a higher muzzle velocity than the M2.

And 20mm shells have 3x the grain. Enough to make a loaf of bread.

----------

The only two pieces of concrete reference I've heard of, is the USAF report on average M2 hits per kill, and the destructiveness comparison between the M2 and the Hispano.

In testing these things, I and other members have found the game matches the reference closely, more than any other game. On average you need 15-20 hits to kill, and the ratio of M2 to Hispano is 3-1 guns, or 4-1 hits.

This is an average, and varies wildly from plane to plane. Zeroes, for example, are downed in half as many hits as a 109.

Just because one watches the FW-190 wing-exploding video over and over again, doesn't mean that it was typical. There are also videos of planes twinkling like Christmas trees under MG fire, and staying in one piece.

As well, all guncam footage that has survived, did so because it was spectacular. For every video with a big boom, there were probably 500 more mundane clips than were never saved, because they were boring. Using guncam footage as an measure of weapon effectiveness is like using Olympic competition footage as a measure of human ability. It is probably why other games have bizzarely over-powerful guns.

BSS_CUDA
06-17-2006, 04:36 PM
why do you people even try to address this issue. there are already 100 other threads about it that all go on for 20 pages and NOTHING is ever resolved. dont waste the bandwith http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

jermin122
06-20-2006, 02:31 AM
You have to hit the target continuously up to no less than a half second, and dont forget to adjust your gun convergence to your taste. .50 is as powerful as hispano, be sure!

joeap
06-20-2006, 04:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jermin122:
You have to hit the target continuously up to no less than a half second, and dont forget to adjust your gun convergence to your taste. .50 is as powerful as hispano, be sure! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree 100% being a good shooter is / was more important than being a good pilot.

ElAurens
06-20-2006, 05:31 AM
If you hit at convergance the 8 .50 Browinings on the P47 will instapop a 109 every time. The key is hitting at optimum range.

JamesBlonde888
06-20-2006, 08:29 PM
I want an air rifle that knocks out Tigers too.

deepo_HP
06-20-2006, 10:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
As well, all guncam footage that has survived, did so because it was spectacular. For every video with a big boom, there were probably 500 more mundane clips than were never saved, because they were boring. Using guncam footage as an measure of weapon effectiveness is like using Olympic competition footage as a measure of human ability. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

just this is worth the thread!
although it is not to be said better, here in player's view:
just imagine, you had been recording all your sorties - how many tracks would you keep? and how many would you consider showing others?

Bearcat99
06-28-2006, 06:34 AM
The 50s arent too bad.. just make sure you set your convergence to 160-225m. Some guys have thiers set higher but I have found that for myself keeping it in that range makes for more punch. Especially in the 6 & 8 .50 planes. Also dont use online performance as a gauge.... Consider doing some experiments in arcade mode... DL IL2Manager or IL2 STAB.. both programs are great... you can get them in the Essentials thread in my sig.... sit the config to Arcade and it will help you see where your bullets are hitting.