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View Full Version : How about Chine / Japan conflict ??



hernanyork
10-26-2004, 12:24 PM
I really surprised that HAS noT chine theater in PF, I think that was important in the test of a lot planes in 1937/1938 and is a very very important theater to development , maybe in a next patch ? Do you think about ?

hernanyork
10-26-2004, 12:24 PM
I really surprised that HAS noT chine theater in PF, I think that was important in the test of a lot planes in 1937/1938 and is a very very important theater to development , maybe in a next patch ? Do you think about ?

Chuck_Older
10-26-2004, 12:31 PM
Well, we are missing a map or two...

For aircraft, the Japanese forces need some planes. The US supplied China with a lot of planes, if I recall, China only designed and fielded one design, and it was virtually a copy of a Seversky design

We have the P-36, which is good. Some of the earlier aircraft we might even have, I'd have to check some references on that

SOme of us have been using the Kuban map for Burma. I've also been using Lvov for the Northern Burma/SOuthern China area. For the Kunming area, I've used the Balaton map. It's the best we have for the area, although Lake Balaton looks nothing like Lake Dian

TacticalYak3
10-26-2004, 12:47 PM
Somewhat related (or maybe directly related) would be to add a map of Japan, as the PF theatre concluded with the two atomic bombings. Well not necessarily suggesting that, but America did do extensive conventional bombing of Japan with B-29s.

A really nice/complete campaign would take one from Hawaii to Japan. Must admit I originally thought this was what Oleg was going to do until I started hearing more news about PF.

hernanyork
10-26-2004, 01:10 PM
Yes , by the way in 1935 the chine air force recived some italians planes i remember CR32 and Siai 81, Breda 85 im not sure, and in the next years some biplanes from usa like Hawk II/III and some german He 111.
Then come the soviets and Chennault, its a very diversificated theater .
Maybe the map is not so important like planes and Chuk have reason in to use any old one.

DIRTY-MAC
10-26-2004, 05:06 PM
Here you go
Here are some planes that were in Chinese service http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
<span class="ev_code_RED">these are two of my favourite fighters</span>


Armstrong Whitworth A.W.35 Scimitar (13?)
Breda Ba.27* (30, 11 known to have been delivered)
^Bregeut Bre.19 (74)
Curtiss Hawk 75 H, M (113)
Curtiss Hawk 75Q (2)
Curtiss Hawk II (50)
Curtiss 68C Hawk III (102)
Curtiss 81-A3 (P-40C Tomahawk) (100 AVG)
Curtiss 87-V (P-40N Warhawk)
Curtiss Wright CW.21 (30 - many not completed)
^Fiat CR.30 (2)
^Fiat CR.32 (16)
Gloster Gladiator Mk I (36)
North American P-51D Mustang (50)
Polikarpov I 15bis (185, plus 4 Soviet Squadrons)
Polikarpov I 153 (93)
Polikarpov I 16 type 10, I 16UTI* (250+, plus 2 Soviet squadrons)
<span class="ev_code_RED">Republic P-43 Lancer</span>
<span class="ev_code_RED">Vultee P-66 Vanguard </span>
Curtiss A12 Shrike (20)
Curtiss Wright CW-19R (20)
Ilyushin DB-3
Lockheed B-14L Hudson
Martin B-10B (9)
North American B-25 Mitchell
Northrop Gamma 2B (24 imported and 25 assembled in China)
Tuplev ANT 40 SB* (200)
Vultee V-11G* (30)
Vultee V-12C (13)
Vultee V-12D (52 - not all completed)
Curtiss Wright C-46 Commando
Douglas C-47 Dakota
Focke-Wulf FW 58
Mitsubishi Ki 57 (captured)
Avro 626 Prefect* (9)
Avro 621 Tutor* (5)
Breda Ba.28* (18)
Fleet 10C, D and licensed assembly* (56)
North American AT-6 Havard* (85)



<span class="ev_code_RED">READ ABOUT REPUBLIC P-43 LANCERS HISTORY </span>:

http://www.warbirdforum.com/richdunn.htm

LEXX_Luthor
10-26-2004, 05:33 PM
FP modder SaQSon says Ki~27 and Ki~21 coming over the FP. Hopefully Flyable. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

A Combo Sim with Spanish Civil WAR and China/Japan WAR would probably include all aircraft producing nations of the world in late 1930s. A truly international flight sim....and one with Real Planes not 1944 NOOB planes. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Gato__Loco
10-26-2004, 05:41 PM
Yeah... I'd like to see more planes from the 1930's.

owlwatcher
10-26-2004, 06:23 PM
Lets not stop at planes mentioned so far.

China/ Russian and Japan Conflicks
Before the war

This way we get all the early **** planes.
Be most interesting .

owlwatcher
10-26-2004, 06:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
FP modder SaQSon says Ki~27 and Ki~21 coming over the FP. Hopefully Flyable. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

A Combo Sim with Spanish Civil WAR and China/Japan WAR would probably include all aircraft producing nations of the world in late 1930s. A truly international flight sim....and one with Real Planes not 1944 NOOB planes. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Add the U.S.A.s planes.
We have the early USS Lexington.
Some of the early carriers planes would be a blast to fly.
Maybe the war in Spain could be altered by shooting down some JU-52s.

Mr.Drop
10-26-2004, 07:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by owlwatcher:
Lets not stop at planes mentioned so far.

China/ Russian and Japan Conflicks
Before the war

This way we get all the early **** planes.
Be most interesting . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They were not CONFLICTs, they were WAR!!!
You call total confronting between two countries CONFLICT? The World War II began in 1937 while the Japan invaded China, not the year of Japan attacking Pearl Harbor!

noshens
10-26-2004, 07:46 PM
no ww2 began when germany attacked russia! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Pentallion
10-27-2004, 12:09 AM
No WW2 began when the Nationalists and the Republicans waged war in Spain. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LEXX_Luthor
10-27-2004, 12:46 AM
Yes, we say "Spanish Civil WAR." P~26 would be Awsum. At least one was used in Spain I believe.

Given the international make up of the soldiers in both Spain and China, we see WW2 slowly began in Spain and China about 1936-1937. All the "sides" had already been chosen in these two wars by the later WW2 combatants although many were shy of talking about it (Ussia, France, etc...endless list). The fascinating thing about Spain and China is the diverse array of foreign aircraft and volunteer soldiers piling into those wars--truly international events heralding the arrival of global WAR.

actionhank1786
10-27-2004, 01:47 AM
you guys totally forgot Chinese planes of the cold war http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

owlwatcher
10-27-2004, 05:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr.Drop:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by owlwatcher:
Lets not stop at planes mentioned so far.

China/ Russian and Japan Conflicks
Before the war

This way we get all the early **** planes.
Be most interesting . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They were not CONFLICTs, they were WAR!!!
You call total confronting between two countries CONFLICT? The World War II began in 1937 while the Japan invaded China, not the year of Japan attacking Pearl Harbor! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Getting fancy with words are you. You are not a lawyer are you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
Spain is listed as a civil war.
Japan vs Russia Border Conflict
China vs Japan Acts of aggression

For history s sake WWII begans at Pearl Harbor.
Reason all are in it at this point and it has the paper work to prove it.

I like to replay WWII from China on. This is where killing starts and you can start to jockly for position for the onslault of world war.

owlwatcher
10-27-2004, 05:24 AM
Will give this a bump to replay

China vs Japan
Spanish Civil WAR
Russia vs Japan

With USA with CVs and air ships added for fun.

hernanyork
10-27-2004, 07:01 AM
Good morning all good and bad pilots, I really think that Spain war is the real Forgotten Battle,and the China/Japan War !!!!!!!! is the more interesting to do , becouse there are a lot of planes in diferents years like show us DIRTY MAC, some of them only figth in this theater like Hawk II/III a beutiful biplane.
The Spanish is a diferent thing , a lot of planes that fight early in the Europeans theaters in the WWII.
Both merely been in FB+AEP+PF.

TacticalYak3
10-27-2004, 07:11 AM
Are you joking or trolling (or a blinded American) owlwatcher about Pearl Harbour being the start of WW2? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

A lot of Allied soliders had been killed long before America finally entered the war, though there were American volunteers who felt compelled to fight prior to their government finally acting.

Chuck_Older
10-27-2004, 07:26 AM
TacYak-

1) Nagasaki is in a map in PF. Check sticky post

2) "blinded American"? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif Disagree if you must, but just because am "american" has a different opinion than yours, that does not mean Americans are deluded.

Before December 7th, 1941, the US was technically engaged in warlike activity against Japan and Germany.

However, the US did not declare war on Japan and Germany had not declared war on the US before then.

There is a strong argument to the effect that the European and Asiatic wars from the '30s all the way up to Pearl harbor were just that: European and Asian conflicts. When the US declared war, it was a Global war, hence: WWII

Now that is debateable, true. But just because you hadn't considered it that way, that doesn't make any American "blinded".

When members here forget their national prejudices before they decide on national character, they typically post more thoughtful things

USN_VF1Hartmann
10-27-2004, 07:41 AM
A world war usually includes all major countries in the world to be called such. A war with two or three is not classified as such. When you then include the United States then you have a world war. So while it may sound like americansobbersish to say so a true world war did begin when FDR declared it.

TacticalYak3
10-27-2004, 08:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
TacYak-

1) Nagasaki is in a map in PF. Check sticky post

2) "blinded American"? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif Disagree if you must, but just because am "american" has a different opinion than yours, that does not mean Americans are deluded.

Before December 7th, 1941, the US was technically engaged in warlike activity against Japan and Germany.

However, the US _did not declare war on Japan and Germany had not declared war on the US_ before then.

There is a strong argument to the effect that the European and Asiatic wars from the '30s all the way up to Pearl harbor were just that: European and Asian conflicts. When the US declared war, it was a Global war, hence: WWII

Now that is debateable, true. But just because you hadn't considered it that way, that doesn't make any American "blinded".

When members here forget their national prejudices before they decide on national character, they typically post more thoughtful things <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Confused Chuck - my comments as stated was about another's poster who stated WW2 didn't start until Pearl Harbour. My Canadian history books say it started in 1939. Lots of countries were already involved in the war, and a lot of people had already died fighting for their countries. Countless peoples had already been killed by Germany. Way too much death and destruction to forget for the sake of preferring that WW2 started when Amercian got actively involved. Not judging America's decision, but I refuse to ignore history either.

Regards

LEXX_Luthor
10-27-2004, 09:04 AM
Well I am not only Ussian I am a superior breed of Ussian--Mississippian--and WW2 began in Spain and China about 1936-1937.

WW2 ramped up slowly from Spain/China, coughed and stumbled here and there, Soviet/German non~agression pact for example, but the shooting started long before Mississippi attacked Japan and Germany http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ).

Chuck_Older
10-27-2004, 09:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TacticalYak3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
TacYak-

1) Nagasaki is in a map in PF. Check sticky post

2) "blinded American"? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif Disagree if you must, but just because am "american" has a different opinion than yours, that does not mean Americans are deluded.

Before December 7th, 1941, the US was technically engaged in warlike activity against Japan and Germany.

However, the US _did not declare war on Japan and Germany had not declared war on the US_ before then.

There is a strong argument to the effect that the European and Asiatic wars from the '30s all the way up to Pearl harbor were just that: European and Asian conflicts. When the US declared war, it was a Global war, hence: WWII

Now that is debateable, true. But just because you hadn't considered it that way, that doesn't make any American "blinded".

When members here forget their national prejudices before they decide on national character, they typically post more thoughtful things <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Confused Chuck - my comments as stated was about another's poster who stated WW2 didn't start until Pearl Harbour. My Canadian history books say it started in 1939. Lots of countries were already involved in the war, and a lot of people had already died fighting for their countries. Countless peoples had already been killed by Germany. Way too much death and destruction to forget for the sake of preferring that WW2 started when Amercian got actively involved. Not judging America's decision, but I refuse to ignore history either.

Regards <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...sigh...

Did I say you were judging the US's position or desion in the '40s?

No.

It seems to me you either didn't read what I posted or don't understand it.

Particularly the part about when WWII really started was "debateable". Did you mi8ss that part?

I also need to know: what exactly does a Canadian History book prove? You would tell me, that just because a US History book said WWII started when the US was involved, it couldn't be right.

You think I'm commenting on your post to another member, when I'm really commenting on why you're in error on two points:

1) That the start of WWII is in fact debateable

2) Your comments on the US are grounded in prejudice. You can't state something like you did and NOT be prejudiced.

What's so hard to understand about all this? I don't have hidden meanings in what I post, I come out and say what I want to say.

So now in stead of gently reminding you that your comments are inflammatory and ill-advised, along with being biased against the US (nationality bashing is prohibited here), we have to have an argument.

Great. Pardon me while I pour another glass of paint thinner for myself.

owlwatcher
10-27-2004, 09:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TacticalYak3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
TacYak-

1) Nagasaki is in a map in PF. Check sticky post

2) "blinded American"? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif Disagree if you must, but just because am "american" has a different opinion than yours, that does not mean Americans are deluded.

Before December 7th, 1941, the US was technically engaged in warlike activity against Japan and Germany.

However, the US _did not declare war on Japan and Germany had not declared war on the US_ before then.

There is a strong argument to the effect that the European and Asiatic wars from the '30s all the way up to Pearl harbor were just that: European and Asian conflicts. When the US declared war, it was a Global war, hence: WWII

Now that is debateable, true. But just because you hadn't considered it that way, that doesn't make any American "blinded".

When members here forget their national prejudices before they decide on national character, they typically post more thoughtful things <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Confused Chuck - my comments as stated was about another's poster who stated WW2 didn't start until Pearl Harbour. My Canadian history books say it started in 1939. Lots of countries were already involved in the war, and a lot of people had already died fighting for their countries. Countless peoples had already been killed by Germany. Way too much death and destruction to forget for the sake of preferring that WW2 started when Amercian got actively involved. Not judging America's decision, but I refuse to ignore history either.

Regards <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The"blinded American"? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
Yes the "My Canadian history books say it started in 1939"
Canada enter the war when the Brits did.
Being from the USA, The neutral country http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
World War2 does not start till Dec.7 1941.
It only matters from where you stand.

As stated in earliar posts

"There is a strong argument to the effect that the European and Asiatic wars from the '30s all the way up to Pearl harbor were just that: European and Asian conflicts. When the US declared war, it was a Global war, hence: WWII"

This is how I have see WW2.There was a chance of the US staying out of it.Very slim chance but still.

My mistake for not stating from the ground I was standing on when I said Dec. 7 as the starting point.

VMF223_Smitty
10-27-2004, 09:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TacticalYak3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
TacYak-

1) Nagasaki is in a map in PF. Check sticky post

2) "blinded American"? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif Disagree if you must, but just because am "american" has a different opinion than yours, that does not mean Americans are deluded.

Before December 7th, 1941, the US was technically engaged in warlike activity against Japan and Germany.

However, the US _did not declare war on Japan and Germany had not declared war on the US_ before then.

There is a strong argument to the effect that the European and Asiatic wars from the '30s all the way up to Pearl harbor were just that: European and Asian conflicts. When the US declared war, it was a Global war, hence: WWII

Now that is debateable, true. But just because you hadn't considered it that way, that doesn't make any American "blinded".

When members here forget their national prejudices before they decide on national character, they typically post more thoughtful things <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Confused Chuck - my comments as stated was about another's poster who stated WW2 didn't start until Pearl Harbour. My Canadian history books say it started in 1939. Lots of countries were already involved in the war, and a lot of people had already died fighting for their countries. Countless peoples had already been killed by Germany. Way too much death and destruction to forget for the sake of preferring that WW2 started when Amercian got actively involved. Not judging America's decision, but I refuse to ignore history either.

Regards <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...sigh...

Did I say you were judging the US's position or desion in the '40s?

No.

It seems to me you either didn't read what I posted or don't understand it.

Particularly the part about when WWII really started was "debateable". Did you mi8ss that part?

I also need to know: what exactly does a Canadian History book prove? You would tell me, that just because a US History book said WWII started when the US was involved, it couldn't be right.

You think I'm commenting on your post to another member, when I'm really commenting on why you're in error on two points:

1) That the start of WWII is in fact debateable

2) Your comments on the US are grounded in prejudice. You can't state something like you did and NOT be prejudiced.

What's so hard to understand about all this? I don't have hidden meanings in what I post, I come out and say what I want to say.

So now in stead of gently reminding you that your comments are inflammatory and ill-advised, along with being biased against the US (nationality bashing is prohibited here), we have to have an argument.

Great. Pardon me while I pour another glass of paint thinner for myself. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Chuck - Hey buddy, don't waste your time. The bias and prejudice against all things American and even their part in World War Two is rampant right now. The war began when the first human picked up a club and discerned that he could kill his fellow human and silence that guys disagreements.
Flaming http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif Americans seems to be a favorite pastime here at the forum from what I have seen. Let them rant. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

LEXX_Luthor
10-27-2004, 09:45 AM
AVG Flying Tigers signed up for WAR long before Mississippi officially declared "war" on Japan.

Yes, WW2 shooting slowly began in China and Spain. The shooting is what matters to WW2 soldiers, the official Approved history books are of interest to teh academics.

Chuck_Older
10-27-2004, 09:51 AM
Ah. But the AVG pilots had to resign from active service.

It was condoned by the US, oddly right after the government tried to block the formation of the Eagle Sqaudrons, but the US military didn't run the AVG.

Even Chennault wasn't in the US military anymore, they sorta-kinda kicked him out. The USAAF hated the fact that they weren't winning with P-40s...but the AVG was


Personally, I would say WWII started in Europe, when the Germans did that put-up job in retaliation for an "attack". Personally.


Smitty-

I'm not trying to defend the US- it's needless in this case- I'm just trying to help TacYak from getting a vacation

TacticalYak3
10-27-2004, 10:08 AM
I'm bashing America? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

What I have said was that World War 2 started in 1939 according to my sources on the matter. And if suggesting that any major conflict in order to be considered a world war must involve the United States, which certainly was and still is a major military and economic power, is very misguided.

If, however, you disagree that's fine. Not interested to further the debate, but resent the fact you wish to label me something I'm not. I have many friends from the United States, and recognize the country's importance in the world community now and back in the WW2 era. If you even did a Web Search about when the start of WW2 occurred, you would discover that for many countries involved in the war it began in 1939.

Again, not judging America's decision when she entered the war, just pointing out that it began prior to Pearl Harbour, at least for most of the Allied countries (and Axis countries for that matter).

Regards,
TactS!

owlwatcher
10-27-2004, 10:17 AM
Enough of bickering with words . That is what lawyers and are for.

Back to subject
I myself would greatly enjoy to see planes from 1937 onwards work there wat into the game.

Like real gun positions for bombers.
Hanging in a basket with a machine gun.

Can't get more real then that.

Chuck_Older
10-27-2004, 10:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TacticalYak3:
Are you joking or trolling (or a blinded American) owlwatcher <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tac-

Yes, you are. Did you forget that you posted this?

This is silly. I'm done helping you folks out who don't understand that when you say negative things based on someone's nationality you are bashing them and their nationality.

I'm just going to whip up a little pic of a smashed cookie or something with the caption "You don't like the US. Great. Here's your cookie" and post that instead http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Maybe a melted hot fudge sundae...

TacticalYak3
10-27-2004, 10:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by owlwatcher:
Enough of bickering with words . That is what lawyers and are for.

Back to subject
I myself would greatly enjoy to see planes from 1937 onwards work there wat into the game.

Like real gun positions for bombers.
Hanging in a basket with a machine gun.

Can't get more real then that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes let's enjoy the original discussion mate! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Frequent_Flyer
10-27-2004, 11:07 AM
I've been many places, met people of all different races, creeds and etnicity.I laugh to myself when over hear them bash Americans while their walking out of McDonalds, wearing a pair of GAP jeans and a Micheal Jordon jersey, talking on their Motorola cell phone,with a Coke in the other hand.Waving to a friend in a Cadilac Esclade,who looks like she walked off a music video from M.TV with American Hip-Hop music thumping away on CD.They put away the cell pnone and turn on their laptop/palm pilot to place a trade of Microsoft stock, and on and on.....you get the picture!!!!!!!!

Pentallion
10-27-2004, 11:23 AM
Actually, not to 'bash' Americans since I AM an American, but GLOBAL conflict began when the Canadians jumped into the fray. Thus WORLD War 2 would be considered to have begun in Sept. 39. IF you use the definition that it must include countries from around the globe. However, many people have different views.

Churchill discounts there ever WAS a world war 2. His opinion was that the conflict was the continuation of world war one, which could only be considered a WORLD war because, ahem, CANADA was in it from the start. The US didn't join WW1 until less than a year remained of it.

It is really annoying when I see Americans use the lame copout that people are "bashing America" when they remark upon the myopic nature of some Americans. Some Americans ARE blinded. Some are too defensive. Some won't argue their points without using spin. Some do a lot of things they shouldn't do.

Pointing this out is not bashing, it's merely pointing it out.

TacticalYak3
10-27-2004, 11:52 AM
Thank you so much my American mate. For what's its worth a search of any of my previous posts under TacticalYak3 or TacticalS! would reveal that I have never bashed the United States here (or in any other forum).

What Owlwatcher initial stated was, "For history's sake WWII begans [begins] at Pearl Harbour." This is not factual.

What Owlwatcher later said was, "Being from the USA, the neutral country World War 2 does not start till Dec. 7, 1941." That viewpoint I understand and have no objection.

Why did I conclude the original post was either a joke, trolling or from a "blind American," was because these were the only reasonable assumptions I could make at the time, because it is to me at least so very well understood when WW2 started.

In comparison, if I may, there are folks who firmly believe that the Holocaust never happened. While some may not be sincere, others I perceive are. The history/evidence is clear to most, though apparently refused by some.

My initial thought was that this person was from America, and sincerely believed what he originally posted. With his further post clarifying his position I now fully understand that for the United States WW2 didn't start until Pearl Harbour, but by now I trust he at least understands that others contend that a global world war was already underway by that time.

Regards

DIRTY-MAC
10-27-2004, 11:58 AM
STOP THIS CHILDISH NONSENS!
YOUR JUST RUINING A GOOD THREAD!
I SUGGEST YOU DELET YOUR POST ABOUT "WHO STARTED WHAT"
YOU JUST LOOK SILLY WHEN ARGUIN LIKE LITTLE SCHOOLBOYS,
COME ON FOR GODS SAKE
CUT IT OUT!.............puh

ok
please continue and discuss the original topic http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Chuck_Older
10-27-2004, 12:24 PM
The childish nonsense in this thread has nothing to do with when WWII started. I've said my peace and maybe sometime somebody will understand what I've said

Gato__Loco
10-27-2004, 12:35 PM
Hey Guys, this discussion is priceless! I've been a history buff all my life, I read a lot, and this is the first time ever I heard that WWII started with Pearl Harbor. It is widely accepted that the "official" start of WWII was the German and Soviet invassion of Poland in 1939. Of course, wars do not start on a vaccum, and we can discuss if previous events like Japan's invasion of China, Italy€s invasion of Ethopia or Hitler's anexation of Austria can be considered part of WWII.
Now, of course, it all depend on the definition of €œworld war€. If the definition is €œa war that must includes the US regarthless of who else is fighting€ then yes, WWII started with Pearl Harbour. But, I would say that the definition of a €œworld war€ is a conflic that includes many countries in several continents. And there is no doubt that was occuring before the bombs start falling in Hawaii. Think about it. Before the US entered the war you had already countries of several continents engaged, including Europe (of course), Asia (no surprises here), Africa (South Africa, Egypt, Lybia, etc.), and the Americas (Canada).
We can also discuss if a government is required to declare war in order to €œbe€ on that war. For example, we know that the US activities before 1941 were not precisely neutral, and indeed many Japanese sources considered the US blockade to Japan as a beligerant act. So was the US participating in WWII before Pearl Harbour? A matter for discussion.
Now, going back to old planes€¦ yes! Let€s have them.

TacticalYak3
10-27-2004, 12:47 PM
In fact, I have recently been discussing an even older plane set - Oleg would probably do a great job with a WWI theatre. Just not sure if there would be interest.

I remember a while ago folks for a little while at least really got excited for some all bi-plane matchups. Given the reduced firing power of the machine guns, one must really aim for engine and pilot kills, since tearing into those huge wings made little impact.

Personally I have always enjoyed the Rata (I-16) in IL-2FB (and of course faster planes like Yaks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif).

Regards

Pentallion
10-27-2004, 12:55 PM
There's a HUGE group of people who would love to see Oleg do a WW1 sim. But it doesn't look likely.

VMF223_Smitty
10-27-2004, 04:09 PM
Almost all historical references to the phrase "World War Two" state that it happened 1939-1945. This, no doubt refers to the invasion of Poland by Germany on September 1st, followed by the declaration of war on Germany by England and France, followed by India, Australia, South Africa and New Zealand. By the way, they called that the "Phoney War" ("drole de guerre") in the west.
September 17th, Russia invaded Poland
November 30th, Russia invaded Finland
The world has always been at war. As long as one has something that someone else would like to have, there will be war.
It's the nature of the beast.

Moka.21
10-28-2004, 01:07 PM
Those three versions (types 5,6 and 10) of Rata
plus I-15bis would be very useful in more than one scenarios: Spanish Civil War, Winter War, Khalkin Gol... Only the Fokker C.X. missing!