PDA

View Full Version : Problem with stall



Wildnoob
09-29-2008, 01:16 PM
folks, I was trying to find some way to maintein figther planes at a constant altitude.

I use the mouse wheel as elevator trim, but find in the command section "elevator trim neutral". I put a key there and try use it.

nothing happen, when I press the key it was like I was giving positive trim.

but now, I discovery that all planes are prone to enter in a high speed stall when I try make agressive turns. this was not happeny before, so I guess it's the key that I used that do this.

any ideas ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

Urufu_Shinjiro
09-29-2008, 01:36 PM
"trim neutral" only sets the trim to zero, erasing any adjustments you made, you still need to trim the aircraft.

Wildnoob
09-29-2008, 01:52 PM
thanks!

I think that could be just impression from my part.

but a key only can't change the configuration of the keys to make the plane stay more sensitivity to elevator movemments (even after being trimmed again), isn't ?

I are beliving that my brain assimilate the new key with the movemment with the stick I've do just after set this key and there's the impression of the planes are more prone to stall.

M_Gunz
09-29-2008, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by Wildnoob:
folks, I was trying to find some way to maintein figther planes at a constant altitude.

I use the mouse wheel as elevator trim, but find in the command section "elevator trim neutral". I put a key there and try use it.

nothing happen, when I press the key it was like I was giving positive trim.

So before you hit the key you were trimmed nose down and then you made trim as zero.


but now, I discovery that all planes are prone to enter in a high speed stall when I try make agressive turns. this was not happeny before, so I guess it's the key that I used that do this.

any ideas ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

You could try moving your pitch sliders up on the left. You will have less fine control but
the difference between stick near center and stick pulled back will be less. It's a matter
of being used to some amount of pull meaning hardly anything until you pull farther, then
it means more - much more. Multiply each slider as 10%, 20%, etc, by the value the slider
is set (default is like 1 to 100) to see how much strength is commanded. So you get first
slider 10% x 1 is .1% strength and last slider 100% x 100 is 100% strength, look at the rest
and see how widely 10% of stick pull can differ.
What works so much near center, you only need a tiny bit to equal at stick halfway deflected
to get the same. It makes it VERY HARD to gage how much to pull unless you are very slow and
smooth and watching your speed and how fast the nose moves against the background.

If you raise the sliders to make less difference between center, middle and full stick then
it becomes easier to gage pull but harder to do the fine control. You learn to move the
stick in small motions with a light touch if you can manage at all.

Otherwise: don't yank the stick to about where you think it should need no matter what you
do or don't do to the sliders. While you're pulling, watch moment to moment how the plane
reacts and loosen up a bit the instant it stops turning as well or begins to slow down too
much or in some cases, at all. You'll just have to learn when, all you need to do is pay
at least as much attention to how the plane is flying as what you do to your target.

b2spirita
09-29-2008, 02:28 PM
also try using your mousewheel to trim, i find it more precise.

EDIT: sorry i see you are already doing that.

Wildnoob
09-29-2008, 02:34 PM
thank you very much folks!

it's impressive how there are so many people dedicated to help. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Buzzsaw-
09-29-2008, 04:32 PM
Salute Wildnoob

A lot of people have problems with stalling because they program their inputs for the elevator incorrectly.

It is important to have smooth transitions between each step in the 10 programmable units in the scaling of input for the elevator. The same applies to Rudder and Aileron, although poorly setup scaling for these last two cause less problems re. stalls.

Here is an excerpt from the RAF74 Pilot's guide, showing how to setup INPUT for your joystick:

>>>

Pilot Handbook Part 1 (continued)

>>>

2) Scaling the Joystick


A Joystick must now be set up so that the Elevator, Aileron and Rudder are easily and smoothly controlled by the pilot. Incorrectly setup Elevators, Ailerons and Rudder will cause the pilot to stall his aircraft more often and also to maneuver less efficiently.

A Pilot scales his Joystick by using the INPUT interface. Access the INPUT interface by selecting HARDWARE SETUP from the main menu and then INPUT.

You will see on the upper left a box which allows you to select one of three Axes: Pitch (Elevator), Roll (Ailerons) and Yaw (Rudder). Each selection then can program a ten step scale of input degree for each of the three potential Axes. Step 1 must be at least 1, and Step 10 can be a maximum of 100.

The idea for the scale is that a Pilot will want to have a slightly finer set of inputs available to him when he is using the initial few centimeters of movement of the joystick, but at the same time, a set of smooth, non-abrupt transitions in the middle range, where stalling typically happens. This is to allow him to make fine adjustments to allow for accurate gunnery, with larger, but smooth adjustments to input in the middle and upper range.

Normally a pilot will program, by entering a number between 1 and 100 for each of the ten steps, a rising scale, that takes the form of an initially gentler slope, slightly steepening as it approaches 100.

Each pilot will have to determine what best suits him, but as an example of what I program here are my 10 steps for each of Pitch, Roll and Yaw.

50-55-60-70-82-88-90-95-100-100

What this level of scaling means, is that when I have moved the joystick the physical equivalent of 7 of the ten steps, or 70% of the movement distance available to the Joystick, I am inputting electronically just slightly over 63% of the virtual control. At the low end of the scale, I am inputting less electronically with a greater amount of joystick movement. With movement equivalent to 3 of the ten steps, or 30%, I have inputted only 18% of the virtual control. At the 10% step, I am inputting 5% of the virtual control. At 9 of ten steps, I am inputting 90% of the virtual control. The whole key to setting the input is to make the transitions between the steps as smooth as possible, otherwise you will not be able to fly the aircraft as accurately as you wish.

There are also scalable settings availabe for FILTERING and DEADBAND. Filtering is used when a Joystick is slightly prone to spiking, and can moderate such wild inputs. For those with a good joystick, this is unnessesary. Deadband creates a dead area around the center of the joysticks physical movements and thus prevents small, involuntary movements of the pilot's hand from affecting the plane's control surfaces. I prefer to set both to zero, but many like to have a deadband of 5 or 10. However, when you allocate a percentage to deadband, you are actually reducing the amount of physical movement of your joystick, which is actually dedicated to control. Therefore the whole scale becomes less fine, and less movement of your hand results in more movement in the virtual aircraft.

<<<

Many people have a set of input something along this line:

1, 4, 10, 20, 30, 50, 70, 80, 90, 100

What this gives you is very fine control of input at the lower end of the joystick movement range, but BIG jumps in input as you get past 50% movement of the joystick. These big jumps in virtual input have the tendency to increase the chance of an abrupt stall.

RAF74 has a number of elements in our training program which can help less experienced pilots move more quickly into flying and fighting more effectively.

RAF74 homepage is here:

http://www.raf74.com/

Wildnoob
09-29-2008, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
Salute Wildnoob

A lot of people have problems with stalling because they program their inputs for the elevator incorrectly.

It is important to have smooth transitions between each step in the 10 programmable units in the scaling of input for the elevator. The same applies to Rudder and Aileron, although poorly setup scaling for these last two cause less problems re. stalls.

Here is an excerpt from the RAF74 Pilot's guide, showing how to setup INPUT for your joystick:

>>>

Pilot Handbook Part 1 (continued)

>>>

2) Scaling the Joystick


A Joystick must now be set up so that the Elevator, Aileron and Rudder are easily and smoothly controlled by the pilot. Incorrectly setup Elevators, Ailerons and Rudder will cause the pilot to stall his aircraft more often and also to maneuver less efficiently.

A Pilot scales his Joystick by using the INPUT interface. Access the INPUT interface by selecting HARDWARE SETUP from the main menu and then INPUT.

You will see on the upper left a box which allows you to select one of three Axes: Pitch (Elevator), Roll (Ailerons) and Yaw (Rudder). Each selection then can program a ten step scale of input degree for each of the three potential Axes. Step 1 must be at least 1, and Step 10 can be a maximum of 100.

The idea for the scale is that a Pilot will want to have a slightly finer set of inputs available to him when he is using the initial few centimeters of movement of the joystick, but at the same time, a set of smooth, non-abrupt transitions in the middle range, where stalling typically happens. This is to allow him to make fine adjustments to allow for accurate gunnery, with larger, but smooth adjustments to input in the middle and upper range.

Normally a pilot will program, by entering a number between 1 and 100 for each of the ten steps, a rising scale, that takes the form of an initially gentler slope, slightly steepening as it approaches 100.

Each pilot will have to determine what best suits him, but as an example of what I program here are my 10 steps for each of Pitch, Roll and Yaw.

50-55-60-70-82-88-90-95-100-100

What this level of scaling means, is that when I have moved the joystick the physical equivalent of 7 of the ten steps, or 70% of the movement distance available to the Joystick, I am inputting electronically just slightly over 63% of the virtual control. At the low end of the scale, I am inputting less electronically with a greater amount of joystick movement. With movement equivalent to 3 of the ten steps, or 30%, I have inputted only 18% of the virtual control. At the 10% step, I am inputting 5% of the virtual control. At 9 of ten steps, I am inputting 90% of the virtual control. The whole key to setting the input is to make the transitions between the steps as smooth as possible, otherwise you will not be able to fly the aircraft as accurately as you wish.

There are also scalable settings availabe for FILTERING and DEADBAND. Filtering is used when a Joystick is slightly prone to spiking, and can moderate such wild inputs. For those with a good joystick, this is unnessesary. Deadband creates a dead area around the center of the joysticks physical movements and thus prevents small, involuntary movements of the pilot's hand from affecting the plane's control surfaces. I prefer to set both to zero, but many like to have a deadband of 5 or 10. However, when you allocate a percentage to deadband, you are actually reducing the amount of physical movement of your joystick, which is actually dedicated to control. Therefore the whole scale becomes less fine, and less movement of your hand results in more movement in the virtual aircraft.

<<<

Many people have a set of input something along this line:

1, 4, 10, 20, 30, 50, 70, 80, 90, 100

What this gives you is very fine control of input at the lower end of the joystick movement range, but BIG jumps in input as you get past 50% movement of the joystick. These big jumps in virtual input have the tendency to increase the chance of an abrupt stall.

RAF74 has a number of elements in our training program which can help less experienced pilots move more quickly into flying and fighting more effectively.

RAF74 homepage is here:

http://www.raf74.com/

thanks Buzzsaw, really thanks for wrote a so long text!

I was pulling the stick too hard, this was happen because this. I forgot that normally I are very ligth with the controls. the problem that happen today is that I forgot this after aplying the key to elevator trim neutral and press the stick too hard and the planes began to stall. the last impression was that the planes where with tendency to stall, but that was just an impression.

anyway, problem solved, thanks to everybody! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

M_Gunz
09-29-2008, 05:32 PM
We use close to the same sliders for pitch, Buzz. I went from all 100's to 91 to 100 to 73
to 100 (sliders in a line, final values are parabolic where default is about a cube curve)
and then -6 per step (right slider = 100, next = 94, 88...) since 4.07 and the handling changes.
Between different players and hardware it's best for everyone to suit themselves. The ones who
don't are only losing out.

I dunno what your doc means by "inputted only 18% of the virtual control". If that means the
control surface/virtual stick is moved 18% then it's only right when the full throw is less
than or equal to the pilot's one-arm strength (about 50 lbs pull) but above that it's less --
18% of pilot strength is applied and Trim does make a difference.

As to Filter, it will also smooth out the piloting. I use 40% but since I move the stick slow
(slower than yanking) and steadily there's barely any delay whatsoever. It does smooth out the
initial stick move about like there's actual weight being pulled against.

I recommend that everyone TRY filter at least once, at least 20+% to see if they like it.
With these short sticks at half+ throw even tiny muscle tremors equal real control movements.
Filter will smooth those out nicely.
It's not just the stick that spikes. Any good target shooter can tell you the same.

Buzzsaw-
09-29-2008, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by Wildnoob:

I was pulling the stick too hard

Yes, in most cases people pull their joystick back further than they actually need to.

It takes a while for an aircraft to get settled into a turn, a pilot has to have the patience to allow it to. I almost always used to find that I had to back off on the elevator input once I got into a turn, but now am disciplining myself to add just enough.

Putting aside elevator inputs, in many ways though, using just the ailerons and rudder to set the aircraft into a bank, thus initiating a turn is a better solution than over-using the elevator. Aileron turns use the natural lift of the aircraft's wings without the extra drag of the elevator, thus speed stays high.

M_Gunz
09-29-2008, 07:04 PM
+1

especially to: It takes a while for an aircraft to get settled into a turn, a pilot has to have the patience to allow it to.

It's the opposite of yank and expect. You lead the plane closely through the maneuver not
expect it to chase your stick.

To that end, a slight dive in the start of a turn is much easier to start the turn than a
level turn. Unloading the wings lets the plane maneuver easier.

I might add advice from real pilots including USAF and US Navy fighter pilots -- use one axis
at a time when doing maneuvers. Diagonal stick motions make double drag. For turns it's
better to roll (as Buzz posts), center the stick and then on need pitch to increase AOA than
the gamer 'over and back' stick snap maneuver.

Wildnoob
09-30-2008, 07:19 AM
when I started to use the P-51 and planes of it's wheigth classification I've always enter in stall.

I was not using gradative movemments (don't have a FFB stick) I was justing pulling the stick to maximum and obviosly that would cause a stall.

a real pilot who teach me to use gradative movemments instead of just pulling the stick at maximum. I learn how to, let's say, "feel" the airplane. after that I only enter in stall if I really want.

DrHerb
09-30-2008, 09:02 AM
Actually a good way *ive found* for exploring stall limits of certain planes is i would load a qmb mission, with no opponents and turn on the wingtip smoke. I would then try to turn/loop inside the circle of smoke till i couldnt hold the turn/loop anymore, Id then progress further with flaps down until i couldnt hold the turn/stall anymore. Its a pretty good way to find out which plane stalls at what speeds with flaps up and down.

M_Gunz
09-30-2008, 09:02 AM
And you say you're still a noob?

You can and do learn so at least you are NOT a dweeb.

M_Gunz
09-30-2008, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by DrHerb:
Actually a good way *ive found* for exploring stall limits of certain planes is i would load a qmb mission, with no opponents and turn on the wingtip smoke. I would then try to turn/loop inside the circle of smoke till i couldnt hold the turn/loop anymore, Id then progress further with flaps down until i couldnt hold the turn/stall anymore.

If you can hold a bank (tilt) while keeping the ball centered then watch your VSI. If you
-can't- hold alt then you've gone into (accelerated) stall. As long as the ball stays
centered it shouldn't spin, but that ball can slip awfully fast! One thing to note is how
much slower the nose turns once you do lose speed.

Most of these fighters should be able to hold between 70 and 75 degrees of bank in a coordinated
turn at about critical altitude for as long as you'd care to turn. That's between 3 and 4 G's.

The slowest you can do that will get the smallest radius, the tightest and hardest sustained
turn you can do. From higher speeds you can bank harder for instant turn but hey unless you
lessen the bank angle before long, you won't be holding altitude -- not that it's wrong to
lose alt but then you lose a good way to compare turns as apples to apples.

Crikey2008
09-30-2008, 06:27 PM
Orthodox VFR combat turn training is to nose up first (stick back to centre) then stick the bank angle required for specific airspeed maintenance (you should know this angle of bank by calculation before 'turning'). This delivers sustained turn,
Maintain nose above horizon at the required attitude to maintain level turn by using the required elevator deflection (important for long-nosed aircraft - else they tend to dive).

Stall begins at wing tips (see trails) because there is where the dominant lift occurs and then the stall gathers and moves wing inboard.

An aircraft and its pilot are meant to use stall not to stallout.

WTE_Galway
09-30-2008, 06:33 PM
Remember there is no "perfect" stick profile that will work magic for everyone. A long throw stick in a home built pit or a flight yoke (p38 style) may work better with 100 across the dial whilst a short notchy stick may need quite a bit of padding.

On the subject of sticks, its pretty hard to stall with a FFB stick, it really lets you know you are pushing the friendship and about to stall.

M_Gunz
09-30-2008, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by Crikey2008:
Orthodox VFR combat turn training is to nose up first (stick back to centre) then stick the bank angle required for specific airspeed maintenance (you should know this angle of bank by calculation before 'turning'). This delivers sustained turn,
Maintain nose above horizon at the required attitude to maintain level turn by using the required elevator deflection (important for long-nosed aircraft - else they tend to dive).

Where do they teach this? Nose high turns are the worst, draggiest kind.


Stall begins at wing tips (see trails) because there is where the dominant lift occurs and then the stall gathers and moves wing inboard.

Since around 1930 or before the practice is to have the inner wings stall before the outer wings
so that the ailerons stay effective. Many designs achieve this by wing twist with the inner
wing chord at higher AOA than the tips. Tip vortices are not stall but they do alert you to
oncome of stall.


An aircraft and its pilot are meant to use stall not to stallout.

I must have missed that chapter in Fighter Combat. Where did Shaw put that?

ADD: I almost missed it! That's the 1st post of our new member. Gee, I wonder who our "new"
member is?

Crikey2008
09-30-2008, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Crikey2008:
Orthodox VFR combat turn training is to nose up first (stick back to centre) then stick the bank angle required for specific airspeed maintenance (you should know this angle of bank by calculation before 'turning'). This delivers sustained turn,
Maintain nose above horizon at the required attitude to maintain level turn by using the required elevator deflection (important for long-nosed aircraft - else they tend to dive).

Where do they teach this? Nose high turns are the worst, draggiest kind.
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">They teach this in every flight school. I wrote 'nose up' while you seem to have read 'nose high'. Your misconception.</span>



Stall begins at wing tips (see trails) because there is where the dominant lift occurs and then the stall gathers and moves wing inboard.

Since around 1930 or before the practice is to have the inner wings stall before the outer wings
so that the ailerons stay effective. Many designs achieve this by wing twist with the inner
wing chord at higher AOA than the tips. Tip vortices are not stall but they do alert you to
oncome of stall.

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">If there is a dihedral angle of wings the tips will be at a higher level than the wing root. They may also flex. So if there is a wing root stall and lift at the wingtips also decays in a turn then consequences can include a (rare) flat spin. Having the ailerons effective in a spin and being used only enhances the (ordinary) spin from a stall. you can design an aircraft to limit stall but you can also fly it as is.</span>


An aircraft and its pilot are meant to use stall not to stallout.

I must have missed that chapter in Fighter Combat. Where did Shaw put that?

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Means what it says. Pilots are trained to use stall in many situations; most importantly landing.</span>

ADD: I almost missed it! That's the 1st post of our new member. Gee, I wonder who our "new"
member is? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">What's the purpose of this statement? I'm just a new member</span>

M_Gunz
09-30-2008, 09:59 PM
Orthodox VFR combat turn training is to nose up first (stick back to centre) then

Figure out why that's BS IRL but true in gamer-land.
Combat training isn't flight school either, but that's not the answer.

You could at least try not using the same techniques that you did before your last banning, btw.

I wouldn't hate trolls so much if they weren't all so stupid.

Crikey2008
09-30-2008, 10:27 PM
Ignoring the post from M-Gunz (I don't understand him) and as a newcomer and as a pilot in real life I hope to not confuse anyone. Much of flying can be counterintuitive if you are not a pilot. For example, most would think it intuitive that lowering flaps is used to gain lift. This is true but lowering flaps can also be used to raise the rate of descent of an aircraft. I will leave this apparent contradiction for consideration.

Level co-ordinated flight in 'turning' requires an initial nose up attitude since angle of bank places the aircraft in a descent if not compensated.

Stalling into a flat spin was a common trait of some WW2 fighters that had a propensity in some attitudes to have their centre of lift move forward of their centre of gravity; eg P-39 (mainly because of its engine placement), Mustang with non-standard fuels tanks; F4u to name a few.

Regards

M_Gunz
09-30-2008, 10:34 PM
And don't forget to center that stick.

Crikey2008
10-01-2008, 08:10 PM
There is some play in the stick in RL either for ailerons or elevators. You only need to nudge the nose up to gain the appropriate horizon attitude for level turning. A little forward stick back to centre may or may not be needed depending on the skill level of the RL pilot.

M_Gunz
10-01-2008, 08:29 PM
Gamer joysticks have definite centers.

Keep digging, you'll be needing to go the "what I meant was" route once you figure it out
or someone real tells you where you blew it.

Crikey2008
10-02-2008, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Gamer joysticks have definite centers.


So do real aircraft. You misunderstand the RL experience I'm afraid.

WTE_Galway
10-02-2008, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by Crikey2008:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Gamer joysticks have definite centers.


So do real aircraft. You misunderstand the RL experience I'm afraid. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

maybe so, but its not always in the same place. It moves with trim for example.

A FFB stick that moved the centre when you changed trim would be awesome http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

One of the issues with a gaming stick is that when you are NOT trimmed and using stick force to fly straight and level you are on a non-linear part of the stick profile, one good reason to run straight 100's.

Crikey2008
10-03-2008, 12:23 AM
If you wouldn't mind?

What settings would you run for an average Thrustmaster controller?

WTE_Galway
10-03-2008, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by Crikey2008:
If you wouldn't mind?

What settings would you run for an average Thrustmaster controller?

That is a bit like saying "what tone control settings should I use on my stereo?", it depends a lot on what your flying style and personal preference is like.

I suggest trying a few different profiles from earlier in this thread and elsewhere and seeing what works best for you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif There are some profiles to play with here:

http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=3395

I also STRONGLY recommend downloading this - it is an awesome utility:


http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=1021

M_Gunz
10-03-2008, 04:09 AM
Originally posted by Crikey2008:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Gamer joysticks have definite centers.


So do real aircraft. You misunderstand the RL experience I'm afraid. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I don't. You do.

Real aircraft "center" by trim. The physical center of stick/column movement might be measured
but it's not some magic spot you pull to before turning or any other maneuver. And since before
the turn you should be trimmed anyway there is no "pull back to center". Your BS post is just
a troll and you are full of it. Time for your "what I REALLY meant was" shuffle now. Go
ahead and do your little troll dance.

Crikey2008
10-06-2008, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Crikey2008:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Gamer joysticks have definite centers.


So do real aircraft. You misunderstand the RL experience I'm afraid. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I don't. You do.

Real aircraft "center" by trim. The physical center of stick/column movement might be measured
but it's not some magic spot you pull to before turning or any other maneuver. And since before
the turn you should be trimmed anyway there is no "pull back to center". Your BS post is just
a troll and you are full of it. Time for your "what I REALLY meant was" shuffle now. Go
ahead and do your little troll dance. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have developed further misconceptions and unwarranted offence.
* I did not write "[any] pull back to centre"; either normally or 'magically'
* I do not trim to turn; pilots are not automatically trained to trim to turn; it's not part of orthodox procedure.
* Imagine a cessna 180 control column to see that a real aircraft's aerofoil controls are centred even on the ground before it takes flight.

M_Gunz
10-06-2008, 07:31 PM
Crikey2008

Posted Tue September 30 2008 17:27
Orthodox VFR combat turn training is to nose up first (stick back to centre) then stick the bank angle required for specific airspeed maintenance (you should know this angle of bank by calculation before 'turning'). This delivers sustained turn,
Maintain nose above horizon at the required attitude to maintain level turn by using the required elevator deflection (important for long-nosed aircraft - else they tend to dive).

Orthodox VFR combat turn training is to nose up first (stick back to centre)

<span class="ev_code_RED">nose up first (stick back to centre)</span>

Nope, you didn't write that when you wrote that and Bud Anderson didn't write about adjusting
trim during flight including combat when he did either. Nope, nope, nope.

I was taught not to do nose high turns by former and active USAF and US Navy pilots but what
do they know, probably didn't read enough books or spend enough time dreaming or something.

M_Gunz
10-06-2008, 07:45 PM
Real aircraft "center" by trim. The physical center of stick/column movement might be measured
but it's not some magic spot you pull to before turning or any other maneuver.

Stick center IRL is where the real stick goes if you're not holding it.

This is determined by trim, airspeed and power.

Change any of those and "stick center" moves.

That's a major difference between the real stick and the gamer stick.

So if I'm flying along trimmed, I don't begin a turn by pulling the stick to center.
I begin the turn by rolling to bank unless I push the nose down a bit first to unload the wings.

Crikey2008
10-06-2008, 09:53 PM
Whatever works for you buddy. Good luck.

M_Gunz
10-07-2008, 01:00 AM
I had IRL "stick" and sim box time 20 years ago. I ain't forgotten yet.

And about trim and WWII combat (as opposed to modern GA) piloting:

From C. E. "Bud" Anderson's autobiography: (http://www.cebudanderson.com/ch1.htm)

They didn't send the beginners at _flying_ into combat. Read more from him and Chuck Yeager
to find out how well they flew before leaving school for England.


A lot of this is just instinct now. Things are happening too fast to think everything out. You steer with your right hand and feet. The right hand also triggers the guns. With your left, you work the throttle, and keep the airplane in trim, which is easier to do than describe.

Any airplane with a single propeller produces torque. The more horsepower you have, the more the prop will pull you off to one side. The Mustangs I flew used a 12-cylinder Packard Merlin engine that displaced 1,649 cubic inches. That is 10 times the size of the engine that powers an Indy car. It developed power enough that you never applied full power sitting still on the ground because it would pull the plane's tail up off the runway and the propeller would chew up the concrete. With so much power, you were continually making minor adjustments on the controls to keep the Mustang and its wing-mounted guns pointed straight.

There were three little palm-sized wheels you had to keep fiddling with. They trimmed you up for hands-off level flight. One was for the little trim tab on the tail's rudder, the vertical slab which moves the plane left or right. Another adjusted the tab on the tail's horizontal elevators that raise or lower the nose and help reduce the force you had to apply for hard turning. The third was for aileron trim, to keep your wings level, although you didn't have to fuss much with that one. Your left hand was down there a lot if you were changing speeds, as in combat . . . while at the same time you were making minor adjustments with your feet on the rudder pedals and your hand on the stick. At first it was awkward. But, with experience, it was something you did without thinking, like driving a car and twirling the radio dial.

It's a little unnerving to think about how many things you have to deal with all at once to fly combat.

With so much power, you were continually making minor adjustments on the controls to keep the Mustang and its wing-mounted guns pointed straight.

Your left hand was down there a lot if you were changing speeds, as in combat . . . while at the same time you were making minor adjustments with your feet on the rudder pedals and your hand on the stick. At first it was awkward. But, with experience, it was something you did without thinking, like driving a car and twirling the radio dial.

Go ahead and doubt all you want. Tell me about how flying from A to B in a Cessna equates to
WWII combat practices. General Aviation in non-aerobatics certified high wing low power planes
is not the same thing and doesn't require or even allow the same training.

BTW, Pitch is not Path.

Crikey2008
10-07-2008, 06:31 PM
That context is generic. The guy is talking about co-ordinated flight in combat.

I notice that some of your claims are corrected in that quote.

Note 1. he states that nose is up while level 'turning' (not your 'nose high')

Note 2. elevators are in trim to more easily assist him maintain altitude under G's not to 'turn' the aircraft: he is using rudder to do that (changing direction). I also turn under trim sometimes; anyone can.

Note 3. because it is a generic conversation he did not get into how trim can increase the chances of stall in a turn at the risk of aleviating pressure on the stick while 'turning'.

All these manouvres and others can be done without trim in circumstances where you may want to keep within safe airframe limits; avoid raising stall speeds; perform extreme aerobatic manouvres etc etc. Noting also that simpler strategies such as B&Z do not need to consider the vagaries of trim.

I don't understand your narrow focus.

M_Gunz
10-07-2008, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by Crikey2008:
That context is generic. The guy is talking about co-ordinated flight in combat.

I notice that some of your claims are corrected in that quote.

Note 1. he states that nose is up while level 'turning' (not your 'nose high')

Following the 109....
And you've obviously got no real idea of what nose-high turns are. I suggest you PM Andy Bush
over at SimHQ or just start a discussion there since they haven't had most of the good pilots
driven off that forum.


Note 2. elevators are in trim to more easily assist him maintain altitude under G's not to 'turn' the aircraft: he is using rudder to do that (changing direction). I also turn under trim sometimes; anyone can.

Trim for speed. That's all I've ever promoted. It was done even during combat is what I've
shown. Anything else is what you've added perhaps in the rush to prove me wrong on something.
First I'm wrong and then you look for ways to 'prove' it. Big padiddle.


Note 3. because it is a generic conversation he did not get into how trim can increase the chances of stall in a turn at the risk of aleviating pressure on the stick while 'turning'.

It's what he did normally in flying. The man is a multiple times WWII Ace with years in combat
after over a year in training and you are going to correct him on what basis? Been there, done
it have you?


All these manouvres and others can be done without trim in circumstances where you may want to keep within safe airframe limits; avoid raising stall speeds; perform extreme aerobatic manouvres etc etc. Noting also that simpler strategies such as B&Z do not need to consider the vagaries of trim.

Right. Cranking around at 3+ G's in life or death combat against the best enemy pilot you've
run across or will, in a better turning plane, I'm sure "the answer" is to just pull harder
since a sim decades later won't model pilot fatigue and someone might apply the dangers of
extreme trim usage to a paragraph you wrote that tells how you trimmed to alleviate stick
forces in normal practice.

He's still alive BTW. Go tell him that's bad practice, laughter can prolong life.


I don't understand your narrow focus.

Errrr, yeah, right. My.. narrow.. focus.

Crikey2008
10-08-2008, 06:29 PM
I have to repeat: whatever works for you...so with the very best of regards enjoy your flying study.

btw I would like to mention a flying incident in my training. It was my first solo. I was on final and about to merge with the threshold chevron markings when I saw my Instructor running on the ground toward me with his arms histerically waving me off. I looked up and there at the other end was a cropduster coming in at the other end of the runway in a downwind landing. I powered up and broke right.
Afterwards, my Instructor said he sympathised with the pilot of the cropduster knowing that they fly a long day and all he wanted was to get down after work was over (it was dusk and my Instructor was a military pilot in WW2).

M_Gunz
10-08-2008, 08:32 PM
My "studies" included the difference between GA and combat flying _long_ ago.

Crikey2008
10-08-2008, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
My "studies" included the difference between GA and combat flying _long_ ago.


CD is licensed above GA and you're the first to claim a substantial difference between GA and military aviation when all pilots have to start somewhere.

In other words you're either trolling or you just don't get that various grades of a flying career is a linear sequence where all points are accessible and is not a jump into some other 'different' pool.
Try and tell that to an airliner pilot whose most exciting flying is in GA away from the Jumbo under the control of many computers.

For this goofup I can't give you any credibility.

M_Gunz
10-08-2008, 09:47 PM
LOL! Please say that being GA pilot automatically makes you qualified for aerobatics or combat!

What a JOKE!

M_Gunz
10-09-2008, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by Crikey2008:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
My "studies" included the difference between GA and combat flying _long_ ago.


CD is licensed above GA and you're the first to claim a substantial difference between GA and military aviation when all pilots have to start somewhere.

In other words you're either trolling or you just don't get that various grades of a flying career is a linear sequence where all points are accessible and is not a jump into some other 'different' pool.
Try and tell that to an airliner pilot whose most exciting flying is in GA away from the Jumbo under the control of many computers.

For this goofup I can't give you any credibility. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As far as substantial differences, please regale us all on how to learn and practice BCM's
and ACM's in your average GA plane! Let's hear about barrel rolls in the Cessna!

You pull the splat you do and tell ME about goofups?
I have to stop here or I'll post something to get myself banned.
Every time you post in this thread my estimate of your IQ goes down 5 points, starting from 90.