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View Full Version : FB has everything superior to others except DAMAGE EFFECT



XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 09:14 AM
IMHO, the Damage effect in FB is unrealistic and kinda boring./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

1) fuel leak, grey smoke, black smoke, on fire, holes, big explosion, that's all in FB. but where're those white puff when taking hits? white stream or smoke? or flame with different size of black smoke? you can see them all in cfs2, which was born almost 3 years ago, i prefer the damage effect(not damage model!!) in cfs2, coz it is much much more versitile than FB, and it looks like real gun cam.

2) explosion. in FB, an aircraft becomes little pieces after explosion, this is not right. check out cfs2 or gun cam, both of them look similar to each other.

thx for your time people /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 09:14 AM
IMHO, the Damage effect in FB is unrealistic and kinda boring./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

1) fuel leak, grey smoke, black smoke, on fire, holes, big explosion, that's all in FB. but where're those white puff when taking hits? white stream or smoke? or flame with different size of black smoke? you can see them all in cfs2, which was born almost 3 years ago, i prefer the damage effect(not damage model!!) in cfs2, coz it is much much more versitile than FB, and it looks like real gun cam.

2) explosion. in FB, an aircraft becomes little pieces after explosion, this is not right. check out cfs2 or gun cam, both of them look similar to each other.

thx for your time people /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 10:18 AM
Bring back the 30ft hit bubble!

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Zayets
06-29-2003, 10:26 AM
I have between 5 to 6 Zero's down each mission flying the Wildcat in CFS2 and I know I'm not that good. Bubble should be huge in cfs2. The only reason I still play now CFS2 is its mission builder otherwise I will sell my cfs2 disks.Besides , FM is really annoying.
Zayets out

http://www.emicad.nl/~justdoit/il2/logo.jpg

Cpt.LoneRanger
06-29-2003, 10:40 AM
?


There ARE "puffs", when you hit the aircrafts, and after that you see little debris falling off.
Besides that, the different smoke comes from the different hit-locations, even within the engine-area, that also have a different effect on the engine. White smoke comes from the coolant-system, grey from the exhaust, black from burning or smoking oil.
So, I think damage modell is FAR superior to ANY other flight-sim, so far.

Interesting. How many GunCam-Videos from WW2 did you watch where the aircraft explodes!? Looking at your arguments, you sound like you have them all or even where there?

I remember a guncam-strip from a Hurricane, shooting at a He111. The later ends up in a big ball of fire. There
is absolutely nothing left, that reminds you to anything close to an aircraft....

So,I wonder, where you take that experience from???

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 10:59 AM
yanqivic: Do you have a link to the gun cam footage? I've been looking high and low, but I haven't found a decent site... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 04:57 PM
try wileys site, The damage effects would be alot better with out the shady million piece plane explosions 1 foot in front of your plane without seriously damaging yourself no large sections fall to the ground, mid air explosions were extremely rare and when they did happen on fuel tank hits large sections of the planes were still intact front fuselage both wings all different falling to the earth on fire, not a million tiny pieces, If you watched over 8 hrs of guncum footage you will know

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Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter



Message Edited on 06/30/0312:44PM by LeadSpitter_

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 05:13 PM
I don't recall the CFS2 damage effects were all that spectacular, IMHO.

I think the damage visualization in FB is excellent.

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 05:39 PM
Cpt.LoneRanger wrote:
- Interesting. How many GunCam-Videos from WW2 did you
- watch where the aircraft explodes!? Looking at your
- arguments, you sound like you have them all or even
- where there?
-
- I remember a guncam-strip from a Hurricane, shooting
- at a He111. The later ends up in a big ball of fire.
- There
- is absolutely nothing left, that reminds you to
- anything close to an aircraft....
-
- So,I wonder, where you take that experience from???
-
- greets
- Cpt.LoneRanger


So, because you saw a single guncam vid where a He-111 blows up into little pieces means that every explosion should leave a plane in little fragments?

What I don't like about FB is that it's too hard to bring down a plane without causing structural failure. Wings and tails ripping off in combat were not nearly as common as it happens in FB, and AI pilots stay with a doomed A/C for way too long. In reality, if your A/C was on fire, it was time to make an exit, immediately. Some multi-engine planes will fly around for 20 minutes trailing flame.

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 06:16 PM
The one effect I miss from CFS2 was the small "internal" explosions when a plane caught fire, that would sometimes result in pieces of the aircraft falling off.

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 06:26 PM
Go with an ME - 262 and get som mad altitude. Now dive and cut the engines to 0. Next, ram the throttle forward quickly to make them catch fire. What you will see next is your engines screaming away out in front of you as they melt. That is hands down, one of the most amazing "damage effects" I've ever seen.

You can also dismantle the bombers in FB or IL2 in a number of interesting and visually different ways. It's not a canned sequence, not by a long shot.

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 11:15 PM
Cpt.LoneRanger wrote:

-
- Interesting. How many GunCam-Videos from WW2 did you
- watch where the aircraft explodes!? Looking at your
- arguments, you sound like you have them all or even
- where there?


i HAVE to disagree you with this. you could see many explosion in gun cam! the fact is: the attacker keeps shooting, and the target keeps taking hits, then a suddenly explosion occurs from the under-fuselage, many pieces come off and spit flame, but the target plane can still fly then fall to ground, sometimes there could be several explosion on one single aircraft.

Remember the famous gun cam of the explosion of B-17? the german keeps shooting, then she explodes, but her main fuselage still remains, of course not nothing left after a fire ball. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 11:16 PM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- try wileys site, The damage effects would be alot
- better with out the shady plane explosions 1 foot in
- front of your plane and you dotn even get damages no
- large sections fall to the ground, mid air
- explosions were extremely rare and when they did
- happen 70% of the plane was still intact falling to
- the earth on fire, not a million tiny pieces,



exactly! you had my words /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 11:27 PM
I believe the best guncams to explain the gunnery of WWII would be of Hartmann's Bf109, and i dunno if it had any /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

But the best guncam footage must have been lost because the plane got shot down.../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 11:49 PM
The graphic damage effects in CFS-2 are indeed pretty spectacular, and they eat framerate.

And you can get a download from a guy called Nibbio which greatly augments these effects, creating great big flaming explosions and smoke rising from bomb hits and so on; and they eat framerate even worse than the stock fx files. So much so that people with low-end computer setups can't even use them without going into slideshow.

You pay for all the pretty stuff. FB already pushes systems pretty hard; if the effects were intensified as you want, a lot of people would find it unusable.

What IS good in CFS-2 is that you can turn the effects up or down, according to what you like and what your system will tolerate. That would be a very valuable feature in FB and I wish it had been incorporated. Then you could have your spectacular effects if you want them and if your machine will accept them, and somebody else could turn them down if that's what suits his needs.

In fact I have to admit that CFS-2's settings menu is superior to the Il-2/FB one, because it has many more different adjustments you can make. For example, in both CFS-2 and FS2K2, you can turn off the aircraft ground shadows. This saves a lot of framerate and I for one don't miss the shadows, which never looked right anyway. I'd love to be able to do the same in FB.

Cpt.LoneRanger
06-30-2003, 12:10 AM
Panzzzz wrote:
- What I don't like about FB is that it's too hard to
- bring down a plane without causing structural
- failure. Wings and tails ripping off in combat were
- not nearly as common as it happens in FB, and AI
- pilots stay with a doomed A/C for way too long. In
- reality, if your A/C was on fire, it was time to
- make an exit, immediately. Some multi-engine planes
- will fly around for 20 minutes trailing flame.

I think you should clearly make differences between AI-bogeys and online playing. In Online-Dogfights, you get a LOT of kills by rendering the controlls unusable or simply killing the pilot. You can do it to AI-pilots, too, but I think it's a lot harder.
The problem is more, that you cannot see, wether the pilot is dead or just trying to fly straight and try to run, so you fire as long as it takes to SEE a result, which is ripping the aircraft apart.
Besides that, since we are all sitting behind a computer, there's no need to jump out of a plane, if the combat seems lost. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger

Cpt.LoneRanger
06-30-2003, 12:32 AM
There ARE some occasions, where you blow up a complete aircrafts and the debris get blasted through the air, yes, that's right.

BUT - you'd surely not survive it, flying directly behind, because the blast as well as the debris are counted as colision objects and the hurt very much!

Apart from that, there are also many occasions, and I think this is a lot more common, where you just keep firing at an aircraft and take it apart piece by piece.

Had this once with an TB3. Shot from it's low 6 from the left wingtip to the right, with a P47. There were many explosions, like when the left gear was ripped off, a ball of fire, when the 3rd engine fell off the wing, and a cloud of debris, as the left aileron said bye-bye to the TB3.

So, there is a lot of detail and a lot of different effects, but of course you won't see this, shooting at an I16 or something like that.

Compared to that, I was rather bewildered by the CFS2-GunCam-Vid, when the target was split in half by a 25m diameter sprite of fire and 2 pieces of debries fell off, but the plane kept on flying.
And the puffs from the hits were a bit too big and dark in my oponion. (besides the fact, that they surely wouldn't stay a round cloud...) =)

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 12:46 AM
Camera film was replaced with each rearm, its not a life long record of the aircraft. So all except that mission should have been saved unless destroyed by other circumstances.

F1NaZZ1 wrote:
- I believe the best guncams to explain the gunnery of
- WWII would be of Hartmann's Bf109, and i dunno if it
- had any /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
-
- But the best guncam footage must have been lost
- because the plane got shot down.../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
-
-



http://www.redspar.com/redrogue/CraggerUbisig.jpg

About after 30 minutes I puked all over my airplane. I said to myself "Man, you made a big mistake." -Charles 'Chuck' Yeager, regards his first flight

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 12:50 AM
I've hit many a piece of debris going thru the fireball of a downed opponent. The pieces will cause damage, the problem lies in FBs still quirky collision model. The same model that allows wings to pass thru each other of another's fuselage without causing any damage to the wing.

I've got footage where a 190D-9's wing goes thru my Yak 9K in a QMB and my Yak gets all tore up but the 190D-9 flys on like nothing happened.

Cpt.LoneRanger wrote:
- There ARE some occasions, where you blow up a
- complete aircrafts and the debris get blasted
- through the air, yes, that's right.
-
- BUT - you'd surely not survive it, flying directly
- behind, because the blast as well as the debris are
- counted as colision objects and the hurt very much!
-
- Apart from that, there are also many occasions, and
- I think this is a lot more common, where you just
- keep firing at an aircraft and take it apart piece
- by piece.
-
- Had this once with an TB3. Shot from it's low 6 from
- the left wingtip to the right, with a P47. There
- were many explosions, like when the left gear was
- ripped off, a ball of fire, when the 3rd engine fell
- off the wing, and a cloud of debris, as the left
- aileron said bye-bye to the TB3.
-
- So, there is a lot of detail and a lot of different
- effects, but of course you won't see this, shooting
- at an I16 or something like that.
-
- Compared to that, I was rather bewildered by the
- CFS2-GunCam-Vid, when the target was split in half
- by a 25m diameter sprite of fire and 2 pieces of
- debries fell off, but the plane kept on flying.
- And the puffs from the hits were a bit too big and
- dark in my oponion. (besides the fact, that they
- surely wouldn't stay a round cloud...) =)
-
- greets
- Cpt.LoneRanger
-
-



http://www.redspar.com/redrogue/CraggerUbisig.jpg

About after 30 minutes I puked all over my airplane. I said to myself "Man, you made a big mistake." -Charles 'Chuck' Yeager, regards his first flight

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 01:36 AM
Il2/FB has the best DMs & FMs available..and the most realistic. As "undermodeled" as some say some of the planes are and indeed some do have some very real problems all of them...even as they are are the best out today...this of course is my humble opinion.

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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 01:43 AM
I always thought that visual representation of DM in IL2/FB was something rather fenomenal...i don`t recall anything close to it in any other sims...including CFS2..which i must admit was quiet good for its own era... i am not sure what points original poster is trying to bring across...

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 02:14 AM
CFS2 has good effects, like fire and smoke, but the rest isnt all that. FB is better I would say.

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 02:35 AM
The things that are missing in FB are the small explosion when ammo is hit. The small puffs of smoke that you see in some gun cam footage. WBIII has those effects also.But FB has holes in planes and a better graphics when pieces are missing than WBIII.

The first time i saw the bullets and oil damage on the cockpit. I was sold on IL-2 and FB.

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 03:10 AM
Man, I have CFS2, ( I buy eveything..lol jk), and whatever little details it might have that IL-2 FB doesn't are so overshadowed by the greatness of IL-2 that it doesn't even matter. I paid the full price for the MS crap and played it like twenty times and decided that even tho I could fly planes I really wanted to fly that weren't in IL-2 FB, that it still sucked *** compared to IL-2. I don't mean to be rude, but it's just the damn truth. See CFS2 sucked so bad I never even played it enought to learn any nuance details that might have been cool. It's not even in the league with IL-2. I gave it away too, hell I can't even remember now to who I gave it, but just gave it away after having it about a week. I'm never getting rid of IL-2 or FB unless times get really hard and I need a few bucks...lol...as if that would ever happen...


Even in the future when things are way advanced, I'm gonna keep Il-2 and FB. They are keepers.

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 03:18 AM
http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/oberstguncam/Frameset/

Also I strongly recommend buying the dvd/vhs

"Gun Camera footage of wwii"

Do a search on the internet for it, and you get a respect of how it should be

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif

Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

adlabs6
06-30-2003, 06:31 AM
Are these the kind of smoke puffs you are referring to?

http://www.geocities.com/adlabs6/B/bin/Damage.JPG


I see these all the time, and I also see little flashes or sparkles when the bullets hit the planes I'm shooting, though not on every shot.

Do these effects disappear on lower graphics settings? I use Excellent always.

When I play online, the smoke puffs shown above are my only clue as to whether or not I hit my target in a high deflection shot. Those puffs will be streaming behind his plane if I did connect.

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Cpt.LoneRanger
06-30-2003, 08:40 AM
@ adlabs6

good picture.

There are also pictures of these little yellowish flashes, that appear when you hit the aircraft and stuff like that.



I noticed, that this is really a big difference what aircraft you're using (the armament) and at what type of aircraft you're firing.

You can rip bombers apart piece by piece very good, but sometimes this works on fighters, too. I have a GunCam-Video of an online-dogfight, where I shot at an La5FN with my La5FN. There are 4 explosions. The first one in the rear fuselage, the second in the tail sections, where a lot of debris falls off, together with the stb stabilizer, another big darker puff with a direct hit to the engine and the third in the prt wing, which just flaps over 3 seconds later, when I allready stopped firing.

IMHO, the IL2-GunCamVids of IL2 are not the very best...

Perhaps it really depends on graphics settings??? (Playing with EXCELENT settings, too)


greets
Cpt.LoneRanger

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 01:25 PM
I have to agree with yangivic (although I knew you would get flamed big time here). FB is far superior to any CFS sim, but CFS2 does have some pretty cool effects when a plane is shot down or burning (nobody is saying bring back the hit bubbles, jeez some narrow minded fools can't read, can they?). Much better than FB (gasp, did I really say something bad about FB, what here?) FB is still better overall, but CFS2 has some better effects. My fav is when you hit a plane and it is burning, then you can see the plane pop or explode a few times while it's on it's way down.

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 08:41 AM
JimRockford wrote:
- Man, I have CFS2, ( I buy eveything..lol jk), and
- whatever little details it might have that IL-2 FB
- doesn't are so overshadowed by the greatness of IL-2
- that it doesn't even matter. I paid the full
- price for the MS crap and played it like twenty
- times and decided that even tho I could fly planes I
- really wanted to fly that weren't in IL-2 FB, that
- it still sucked *** compared to IL-2. I don't mean
- to be rude, but it's just the damn truth. See CFS2
- sucked so bad I never even played it enought to
- learn any nuance details that might have been cool.
- It's not even in the league with IL-2. I gave it
- away too, hell I can't even remember now to who I
- gave it, but just gave it away after having it
- about a week. I'm never getting rid of IL-2 or FB
- unless times get really hard and I need a few
- bucks...lol...as if that would ever happen...
-
-
- Even in the future when things are way advanced, I'm
- gonna keep Il-2 and FB. They are keepers.



calm down pal, i know MS's "can't fly sh*t 2" sux, but just its damage EFFECT(NOT MODEL) is much better and cooler than FB's, and looks like real things. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 09:02 AM
Heywood_Jablomi wrote:
- The graphic damage effects in CFS-2 are indeed
- pretty spectacular, and they eat framerate.
-
- And you can get a download from a guy called Nibbio
- which greatly augments these effects, creating great
- big flaming explosions and smoke rising from bomb
- hits and so on; and they eat framerate even worse
- than the stock fx files. So much so that people
- with low-end computer setups can't even use them
- without going into slideshow.
-
- You pay for all the pretty stuff. FB already pushes
- systems pretty hard; if the effects were intensified
- as you want, a lot of people would find it unusable.



thx a lot, heywood, maybe what u've just said explains everything /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

My specs is P-IV-1.6GHz, 512DDr, GeforceIV-128MBDDR.

I play cfs2 with maximum graphic setting at 1024x768, it runs almost perfectly smooth if the number of planes are less than about 20, even during gun firing or explosion.

But, when i play FB with excellent graphic setting at 1024x 768, the fps starts to drop a bit when the number of plane are more than 8. If many planes are firing at each other or when AAA shells are fired from the ground or above big city, the fps will drop to 10~19 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

maybe that explains why FB's damage effect cannot be too good and cool /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif