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XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 05:00 AM
I was amazed at the effectiveness of the cannon & mg shells on my plane at 300 meters. The AI sure can shoot straight, but is it true that shells can have such a devatating effect at this distance? I was flying a 109f2 vs 1-16...



<img src><center><www.btinternet.com/~military.aircraft/</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 05:00 AM
I was amazed at the effectiveness of the cannon & mg shells on my plane at 300 meters. The AI sure can shoot straight, but is it true that shells can have such a devatating effect at this distance? I was flying a 109f2 vs 1-16...



<img src><center><www.btinternet.com/~military.aircraft/</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 05:02 AM
I notice that (at least at times) the AI starts shooting as early as 550 meters and misses.

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 05:53 AM
The effectiveness of the guns depend on what gun and what ammo is being fired.

Light and heavy machine guns won't hurt you much, unless they are close. Usually, beyond 500m or so light mgs will bounce off the aircraft skin and heavys won't do much better. Some planes fare better than others: the mig3 will catch fire with a few MG151/15 rounds from the 109/F2, but the LaGG3 will take much less effect. The russian Beresin and ShKAS machine guns are much better than the german ones, having almost twice the rate of fire. The US MGs are somewhere between the two.

Defensive machineguns on early german bombers are usually weak Light MGs, but the later "D" stuka has a very nasty and much more effective armoured turret with two MGs that are much better. Plus, because they are aiming at your engine & cockpit, they do more damage than if they were fired from your 6. Be very careful of Russian defensive gunners. The Pe8 has 2 ShVAK 2mm cannon turrets, and most other planes have UBT machineguns that are very deadly at close range.

Most of the 20mm cannons in the game carry a mix of AP and HE rounds. The HE rounds will keep their effect at a longer range, but the AP rounds work much better when you are closer.

The Mk108 cannon is a bit of a special - it carrys thin-walled HE shells that are ineffective against heavy armour, but can do massive structural damage. Most later german planes carry these, and they can cut your wing off easily, even from fairly long ranges. Fortunately, it's short barreled for the size of the shell, so the shells are inaccurate and go slowly, which makes it hard to get hits at long range with it!

The NS37 on the Yak9T and LaGG3T, and NS45 on Yak9K, as well as the P39's 37mm (T9?) have a mix like the 20mms. The AP rounds will go straight through your engine if they are close, and the explosive ones will do structural damage. This is why sometimes a round will seem to just go through a wing and do nothing, and sometimes it will explode and snap it off.

Does that answer your question? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 08:26 AM
You will also note that the AI is more effective than a human player, by vitrue that the AI always fires straight, and is not prone to gun shake.

So a human player might hit you with a few rounds here or there, but the AI will pour a continuous stream of lead into you till you die.

All the more reason not to get in that bullet stream. Just keep turning, and the AI won't be able to draw a bead on you.

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XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 08:54 AM
Bnej, tnx for very good information!

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 09:25 AM
Bnej,

>>>Light and heavy machine guns won't hurt you much, unless they are close. Usually, beyond 500m or so light mgs will bounce off the aircraft skin and heavys won't do much better.<<<

Can you tell me where you got this info? Is it from the game or real life?

I have conducted live fire demos of.30AP/7.62mm punching through 1/8in steel plate and blowing up gerry cans at 500m. The Browning M2 .50/12.7mm will easily do the same thing at 1000m. There are very few non-pressurized WWII aircraft skins, which seem to be made of old time beer can material, that you cant dent with your thumb or easily put a screwdriver through.

The range issue in A2A is not the kinetic effect of the round at those distances (approx .5 to 1 second flight time) but the difficulty of actually scoring a hit from one maneuvering plane to another.

Zeke

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 11:07 AM
- >>>Light and heavy machine guns won't hurt you much,
- unless they are close. Usually, beyond 500m or so
- light mgs will bounce off the aircraft skin and
- heavys won't do much better.<<<
-
- Can you tell me where you got this info? Is it from
- the game or real life?

Quote from manual: "a bullet at 50 metres can puncture light to medium armour, but at 500 metres it may even bounce off human skin."

Note the "may even" in that sentence - you are right, that the mgs can penetrate most aircraft skin even at 500m. However (another quote from manual)

"A bullet stream from one machine gun at 50 metres will fit into an area fifty times as small as the same bullet stream at 500 metres."

So 1/50th of the number of bullets hitting with significantly less power at 500 metres compared to 50. This is a more accurate description of how Mgs behave at range in the game.

You also need to take into account that the aircraft skin is not all your bullet must contend with. It has to have sufficent energy to damage somthing once it passes through - the Ju87D & G have 4-10 mm armour plate around the pilot, gunner and engine which makes the plane very tough, & the Il2 is tougher still. Most other planes in the game also have pilot armour, and at least some protection for the engine, so you are better off getting in close if you want an MG kill.

So yes, you are right absolutely in terms of MG power at range, but they are still pretty much as ineffective as I said in the game. Sometimes you can get lucky at 400-500m, but I usually close to < 250 before firing.

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 02:57 AM
Bnej_03

>>>>Quote from manual: "a bullet at 50 metres can puncture light to medium armour, but at 500 metres it may even bounce off human skin.'<<<<

I think you better get a new manual cause the one you have is really bad.

I have personally shredded very substantial objects at 1500m with a 12.7mm machinegun.

You are aware that the Semi-Automatic Barrett .50 allows for effective operations against targets like radar cabins, trucks, parked aircraft and so on out to 1800m. One round can disable a truck or aircraft by going in oneside and out the otherside of its engine block.

At 500m (aprox .6 of a second flight time) even a 7.62 AP round still has enough kinetic energy to go completely through 1/8 inch steel plate and kill any human dumb enough to be standing behind it.

The US Army Remington M24 - 7.62mm sniper rifle is speced to kill out to 1000m with a typical range of 800m.

I would be interesting to see how many people will volunteer to be 500m bullet catchers, hoping that the bullet will bounce off their skins http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

In real life A2A the inability to direct aim fire at these ranges does not mean that if a pilot was unlucky enough to wander into a stream of fire at 1800m that his plane will not be shotdown.

That being said I think that like most games the rounds are most likely killed off in less then 2 seconds so it would be impossible to hit at these ranges even by accident.

Zeke

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 03:36 AM
Two points:

- MG rounds are still damaging at 500 meters.... OK I did only the 400m exercise with 7.62x51 FMJ from a G3A3, but it still penetrates 10cm of wooden target background easy. Aiming at that distance, esp. in a moving aircraft on a moving aircraft is the problem.

- Mk 108 normally used belts with 1x AP, 1x HEI, 1x M-Geschoss - the monster HE round, which IIRC has 92 grams of Hexogen/Nitropenta load, which in turn is about the HE loading of a hand grenade. Low muzzle velocity, resulting difficult trajectory for aiming is again the limiting factor.

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