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View Full Version : The Importance of a good Joystick!



dazza9806482
05-25-2005, 06:58 AM
Prolly stating the obvious but in this land of x45 owners and x52 owners and TIR3 users, I would like to speak as the proud owner of a totally gubbed stick for the past 6 months.

i cant afford the best, or even the middle range- or if i could i would probably have things higher on my list http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

So i have been muddling along with my **** stick for the past while. all the time loving IL2 as ever before but flying like a total monkey. Online im not the best, but i had an excuse for part of that.....

there is a point to this story- I got a new stick! a cyborg 3d force- not the best but new and accurate.

i had a go on il2 lastnite online.

BLiss! pure unadulterated bliss. my plane flew smoothly accurately and i could use tactics i had picked up and they worked.

went on one sortie with an A6- shot down a P38 and damaged a spit- had a few hairy moments and BnZed like a champ. made it back to base.

totally brilliant- even more so that my loyalty to il2 never faltered with a stuffed stick, but how irrepressibly excellent and sublime the game becomes with a decentish stick is something to behold...


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

happy bunny (till stick breaks again!)

Iron-Works
05-25-2005, 07:29 AM
Quit your gloating!

dazza9806482
05-25-2005, 07:34 AM
It wont last!

Arf!

rnzoli
05-25-2005, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by dazza9806482:
how irrepressibly excellent and sublime the game becomes with a decentish stick is something to behold...


Thanks for sharing this. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I have nearly given up on IL2, because I still have an incredibly - yes, that's right, UNBELIEVABLY - inaccurate Logitech Wingman FFB joystick.

In TnB, that means stalling all the time.
In B&Z, that means not hitting anything.
In ground attack, that means ground impact.

So it is a HUGE difference to fly with an accurate joystick, especially if you are trained - and frustrated yourselves - already on a bad one.

Had I known this 6 months ago.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

dazza9806482
05-25-2005, 10:15 AM
Perfectly put http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You do end up compensating for your **** stick. Usually a BnZ attack would end with an overshoot or embarrassing miss, its the minute corrections that make the difference. My stick mushed around the center and then spiked so much i had to have maximum filter, which makes it react about 4 seconds slower.

last nite i made very high speed attack on a 38, and went under it at about 5 meters from ground level- i was just thinking 'here we go- splat', yet i could skim the ground and survive.

honestly my game experience increased tenfold.....

beg borrow or steal (well maybe not the last bit!)

TgD Thunderbolt56
05-25-2005, 11:06 AM
The good part about getting a new stick, is that you can easily justify the expense of a nicer, high-end controller because you won't need to replace it as much as you do your pc.

I still have the original CH Flightstick I bought in '93 and were it not for the gameport connector, it would still be in use today. At the time, the cost wasn't exorbitant but was still high for me at the time. I waffled for days then broke down and got it....and never looked back. WHAT A DIFFERENCE!

I know there are all sorts of financial demographics in this community, but the cost for high-end controllers is more of a moot point than the justification for the latest, greatest VC etc,..

Do yourself a favor and treat yourself to a completely selfish purchase. You won't regret it and the longer you own it the more you'll appreciate it.

TB

JG54_Arnie
05-25-2005, 11:26 AM
Hmm, for me going for a 30 euro "Thrustmaster pro gun miss all the time 2 shock" to a 50 euro Cyborg 3D platinum meant quite a difference already. It defenitely means an awefull lot, a precise and stable stick actually allows you to make manouvres and not stall. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

As said above, worth it for sure http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

rnzoli
05-25-2005, 01:22 PM
I made a movie clip to document the war crimes of Logitech. This is how my almost new joystick behaved: 3.7 MB (http://web.axelero.hu/rnzoli/Logitech-bad-input.avi). It is hard to recognize, but it is a slow up-down-left-right- rudder left-rudder right sequence there. With this, I could definitely win "<span class="ev_code_RED">The crappiest joystick you have ever flown in IL2</span>" contest.

For me, the most sad part isn't "missing the targets" - I don't care about points. The most frustrating thing is that glass ceiling on your own learning curve.


Originally posted by dazza9806482:
beg borrow or steal (well maybe not the last bit!)

I would suggest replacing the last bit with "build"! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

My problem is FFB - I really like force feedback. But simply there are no new, quality FFBs on the market. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif The best FFB was MS Sidewinder2 - expensive like hell, but I was prepared to pay for it! However, it just went out of production, you cannot get one in new condition anymore -duh! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif Then there is Saitek, which is said to have very weak forces and bad ergonomics - duh! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif Logitech - duh, not again! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

So as a temporary solution, I got another Logitech, same as mine, which my friend wanted to dump in the garbage. I took it apart, built a home-made pedal to it http://web.axelero.hu/rnzoli/pedal.JPG and fixed up the poorly designed inner mechanics with some innovative applicaton of ....uhum...rubber-bands... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Now, my friend's stick is flyable again - somewhat. I can stay alive for a few minutes in a late-war, limited planeset, full-switch dogfight server - sitting in a La-5FN, of course http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

On the long run, I am building my own joystick, using the electronics and the main stick handle from my useless Logitech joy. This is why I don't take it back to the store.

jugent
05-25-2005, 01:48 PM
My pedals are nicer than yours ;-)

rnzoli
05-25-2005, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by jugent:
My pedals are nicer than yours ;-)

Prove it! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Monson74
05-25-2005, 02:06 PM
My MS Precision just died & was rapidly replaced by a Saitek Evo (who said addiction?). The MS had become very inaccurate over the years but I got used to it - didn't do things the stick wouldn't let me. Now with a new stick it's like I have to learn it all over again... The plane actually does what it's told to but I tell it to do bad things http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Good thing 4.0 is coming up so I won't be the only meganoob around. Clear the deck - Monson is coming in hard & heavy!!!

AerialTarget
05-25-2005, 02:28 PM
Aye, my brother has a Logitech Wingman. It's the worst joystick I've ever had the misfortune of using.

krmichal
05-25-2005, 03:04 PM
Just to protect others... I have "Logitech Wingman Extreme Digital 3D" joystick, and it was **** from the day I bought it. But it needed next month or two to reveal it's real face. It's just unusable...

Don't get me wrong. Maybe it's just that one particular joystick, maybe I was just out of luck and other logitechs are great, but I don't like risk. Never again.

F19_Ob
05-26-2005, 04:02 AM
WARNING......DONT BUY LOGITECH......



The problems with logitech is well known on these forums now.
Sadly there are lots of them in stores and many beginners will probably buy them.
It seems the sensory parts get worn out fast wich gives inaccurate input.
I have talked to about 10 mates with logitech sticks and the problems are the same.
For some it lasted 3-5 months for others it was faulty after one month.
In addition to that there have been discussions on this board earlier about logitech and the general feeling is, its bad.

Some logitech sticks have really good ergonomics but that doesn't do any good if U cant fly with it.
My logitech lasted 5 months before beginning to fault. So I was lucky.
Still the price is too high for a product that has so short lifespan.

WONT BUY LOGITECH ANYMORE.

dazza9806482
05-26-2005, 04:13 AM
To be fair to Saitek, my Rumble Force lasted for about a year, including several drops of the desk, which at one point split the casing in half! Steadily declined however.

My new stick seems quite sturdy- at first i was disappointed with the forces- I was used to a very strong spring force with the Rumble, however now ive got used to the lack of a strong centering force i am begining to feel the subtle forces on my stick. Really makes a difference...

although ive heard that MS FFB is really really powerfull http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HotelBushranger
05-26-2005, 04:38 AM
I know what you mean. I had a Wingman Extreme up until Christmas last year, when. silly little naive boy I was, got a Logitech Attack 3. Lots of buttons, throttle slider etc, but I find myself ripping my hair out over it. The problem is, it develops itself into habits. One of the most common is not completely goign right, then it develops into not going back, which is the worst. Another is extreme right sensitivity, I can just nudge the loose stick, not even qualifiying for a proper push of the stick, for it to fling itself onto its back with a right barrel roll. To combat this, I downloaded the Logitech Calibration Removal tool. When I get fed up with my stick after a while, I erase the calibration, shut off and switch back on. Sometimes it lasts for several days, most time it's find, right until I actually start flying. Sometimes, I'm shutting on and off dozens of times a day, and even worse on the weekends http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

So, I dream of the daywhen I can burn this useless Logitech rubbish and get a proper joystick. Any ideas anyone? Preferably non-hotas, i.e. jus the single stick. Cheers

Sturm_Williger
05-26-2005, 04:46 AM
Well, I have to say that I flew with a "Logitech Wingman Extreme Digital 3D" for about three and a half years - yep, that's "OVER THREE YEARS" ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Then I bought an X45 and gave my old stick to a friend ( yes, he's still a friend http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) and 9 months later it's still doing fine.

Disclaimer : After using the X45 and having a go on my old stick a few months back when visiting, I couldn't go back to it - too "floppy", but it can't be ****ged off completely - especially as my X45 gives a spurious left-bank signal from time to time - dodgy pot I expect http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif , but there you go.

TooCooL34
05-26-2005, 05:34 AM
Originally posted by Sturm_Williger:
Well, I have to say that I flew with a "Logitech Wingman Extreme Digital 3D" for about three and a half years - yep, that's "OVER THREE YEARS" ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Then I bought an X45 and gave my old stick to a friend ( yes, he's still a friend http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) and 9 months later it's still doing fine.

Disclaimer : After using the X45 and having a go on my old stick a few months back when visiting, I couldn't go back to it - too "floppy", but it can't be ****ged off completely - especially as my X45 gives a spurious left-bank signal from time to time - dodgy pot I expect http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif , but there you go.
You really like infamous products. Are you masochist? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

rnzoli
05-26-2005, 05:39 AM
Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
The problem is, it develops itself into habits. One of the most common is not completely goign right, then it develops into not going back, which is the worst. Another is extreme right sensitivity, I can just nudge the loose stick, not even qualifiying for a proper push of the stick, for it to fling itself onto its back with a right barrel roll. To combat this, I downloaded the Logitech Calibration Removal tool. When I get fed up with my stick after a while, I erase the calibration, shut off and switch back on. Sometimes it lasts for several days, most time it's find, right until I actually start flying. Sometimes, I'm shutting on and off dozens of times a day, and even worse on the weekends http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

EXACTLY! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif My friend described the same "habits" of his Logitech (non-FFB) stick, and he struggled with calibrations, nursed the pots etc., but it was ALL WASTE OF TIME. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif



Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
So, I dream of the daywhen I can burn this useless Logitech rubbish and get a proper joystick. Any ideas anyone? Preferably non-hotas, i.e. jus the single stick. Cheers


FWIW, my friend bought a Saitek Cyborg 3D as a replacement, and he is happily flying since then. He noticed though that the ergonomics are far better with the Logitech.

PS. He did not burn his Logitech, but took it back to the store. The store sent it for repair, but some days later he received a voucher to buy something else in the store. He saw the repair shop's angry comment back to the store on the warranty papers: "These things are unrepairable. Never send such device to us again!". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

rnzoli
05-26-2005, 05:47 AM
Originally posted by Sturm_Williger:
[..] especially as my X45 gives a spurious left-bank signal from time to time - dodgy pot I expect http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif , but there you go.

The weakest part of these sticks are the potentiometers, the pots. The ones that go into joysticks are 4-5 times more expensive in retail, than ordinary pots. I also doubt their accuracy over time - unlike the normal pots with 270-310 degree movement, these special joystick pots have to put about 60 degrees of rotating motion into the full swing of 0-100 kiloOhm. No wonder the resistance layer gets worn out eventually.

So apparently, the best joystick for IL2 is the one with the highest quality of potmeters and an endless supply of spare pots http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Or one with an optical solution - if any exists today.