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View Full Version : Myst needs Free Movement Environment Maps



Inversity
01-12-2005, 04:38 PM
When Myst was first created it was ahead of its time. It was incredible, full of beauty & wonder, with a great story, and it worked!

Myst was the best-selling game for a long time because it was such a breakthrough.

But now with game engines like Doom3, Havoc, Unreal, Serious, Source, Cry, and more, it just makes no sense for Myst to continue without allowing the player full freedom. I tried the other games & I found them to be like looking at pretty postcards, but that was about it.

It's time for Myst to move onto full freedom gaming & lose the leash. I'm sick of being led by the nose. At least if you are going to drag me through the story instead of letting me, the gamer, unravel it in my own good time while I tour the realms you create, then allow me to move about without be attached to the map & looking at panoramic images. I want to be part of the environment. I want to interact with everything; knock lamps over, swim in the sea, walk around in circles if I want to, get a better look at your puzzle objects by looking at them from any angle I wish, not the angle you force me to look at them.

If you make Myst fun again, then I'll come back. Until then, I guess I'll see you when you remake them with Real Time, free movement maps. I just can't stand it to be kept inside a slide projector when we have the capability to actually be in the world with full free movement.

I hope your game makes a lot of money. But I think it would do quite a bit better if you didn't put the leash on people. Let them roam around! Let them do it their way! Let them be smarter than you thought they could be! Let them win in a way you would not expect! Let them be as unique as the characters you made for this place & embrace Myst in the way it was always meant to be played.

Inversity
01-12-2005, 04:38 PM
When Myst was first created it was ahead of its time. It was incredible, full of beauty & wonder, with a great story, and it worked!

Myst was the best-selling game for a long time because it was such a breakthrough.

But now with game engines like Doom3, Havoc, Unreal, Serious, Source, Cry, and more, it just makes no sense for Myst to continue without allowing the player full freedom. I tried the other games & I found them to be like looking at pretty postcards, but that was about it.

It's time for Myst to move onto full freedom gaming & lose the leash. I'm sick of being led by the nose. At least if you are going to drag me through the story instead of letting me, the gamer, unravel it in my own good time while I tour the realms you create, then allow me to move about without be attached to the map & looking at panoramic images. I want to be part of the environment. I want to interact with everything; knock lamps over, swim in the sea, walk around in circles if I want to, get a better look at your puzzle objects by looking at them from any angle I wish, not the angle you force me to look at them.

If you make Myst fun again, then I'll come back. Until then, I guess I'll see you when you remake them with Real Time, free movement maps. I just can't stand it to be kept inside a slide projector when we have the capability to actually be in the world with full free movement.

I hope your game makes a lot of money. But I think it would do quite a bit better if you didn't put the leash on people. Let them roam around! Let them do it their way! Let them be smarter than you thought they could be! Let them win in a way you would not expect! Let them be as unique as the characters you made for this place & embrace Myst in the way it was always meant to be played.

jetuserX
01-12-2005, 04:42 PM
This one is a fully free movement enviroment. This is based off an improved version of the Uru engine so its realtime 3d rendering rather than prerendered like the other myst games.

Coronagold
01-12-2005, 06:28 PM
I don't feel leashed playing Myst, Riven, Exile or Revelation. I certainly didn't feel leashed in realMyst or Uru & it's XPacks. I only feel leashed when I don't have a fun enjoyable community playing an FPS.

Myst is community. No other gameset has more friendly people.

Eat_My_Shortz
01-12-2005, 06:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But now with game engines like Doom3, Havoc, Unreal, Serious, Source, Cry, and more <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Umm did you play Uru? That USED the Havok engine! It didn't work out - wasnt made for Mac. To quote Douglas Adams: "This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."

RealMyst? That was realtime 3D version of Myst 1.

Myst V? Did you read ANY of the press articles? Its realtime 3D. Hope you're happy.
I can't believe its the third thread ever on the Myst V forum and its already a whine.

Fissure_Walker
01-12-2005, 06:56 PM
I have always felt that, while wonderful for Uru, realtime 3D just wasn't...Myst. realMyst never captured me the same way Myst did. Besides, as in Myst IV, great detail that may be needed cannot be replicated in realtime 3d to the extent a pre-rendered background can.

Deg__
01-12-2005, 07:06 PM
It's a battle between photorealism in prerendered and immersive environments in realtime 3D. It's a personal choice. I prefer moving clouds, changing weather, and dynamic lighting that can only be found in realtime graphics.

Using realMyst as a measuring tool is not fair. The 3D engine being used in Myst V is far better and has been improved. That's like trying to compare the graphics of Playstation 2 to Atari.

Cheers,
- Deg -

Fissure_Walker
01-12-2005, 07:09 PM
Indeed, though I mentioned realMyst, I was in mind comparing Uru and Myst 4.

AssyMcButt
01-12-2005, 08:46 PM
I just hope to God it doesn't include any 3rd person elements a la Uru. If this is a continuation of the main series, it just makes sense to play as the same faceless friend of Atrus's each time.

DebbieDec2003
01-12-2005, 09:14 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Wow, didn't take long for somebody to have a "Point of View" huh? Well, with the real-time 3D and improved Plasma engine (now that I *know* what that actually means http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ) we should have a lot of fun. Whatever it has in it, will be excellent I'm sure. I've got blind faith perhaps, but sometimes life just requires that. Cyan hasn't ever let us down. They've always pushed the envelope in every way possible. Good luck to them.

vormaen1
01-13-2005, 12:26 AM
When it comes out, just enjoy it for what it is, a great story, the end of all things we knew or thought we knew about the world of Myst. It's time to look forward. Myst may be ending, but we knew Atrus didn't live forever. But Yeesha's journey begins where Atrus' ends.

penguinx42
01-13-2005, 01:10 PM
If this were Slashdot I'd say this guy was a troll.

I mean, come on. Uru's biggest hyped new feature was that it was going to be a fully dynamic 3D environment. And now this guy comes along and complains that Myst needs a game in a fully dynamic 3D environment? Come on http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Scythephantasm
01-13-2005, 02:42 PM
I don't know how I feel about it being in realtime . . .

I'm use to the way Myst was run as prerendered. In fact, I prefer consistancy in everything, which is probabily why the movement in Revelation bugged me. Unless the new technology of realtime has surpassed what I've seen, realtime doesn't have the same quality.

I dunno, I can't do anything about it, so I'll probabily just get over it.

Or, who knows, love the heck out of it. We'll see.

oh-foon
01-14-2005, 12:27 AM
For me, the pre-rendered Mysts allowed me to almost believe that these worlds actually existed.

Uru was great in terms of story, but it wasn't as believable for me.

Schalansky
01-14-2005, 05:47 AM
After playing URU Myst IV was restrictive. URU and Myst V is the future.
I can survive with first person.
In URU Live my wife and I traveled together. She liked 1st and I like 3rd person.
You can see more detail in 1st person and more vistas in 3rd.
They are both OK.
I just like to move around with as little restriction as possible. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

JennyH
01-14-2005, 06:08 AM
One of the great things about this community is that everyone is welcome to an opinion and allowed to voice that without criticism as long as it is done in an appropriate manner.

So let's not accuse people of whining or trolling.

I'm really looking forward to Myst V and the erm.. however Toria described it because I still don't know what all that means. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

wafna
01-14-2005, 08:53 AM
I don't care which method is used. I like them both. I like being able to move around somewhat freely in 3-D (there is always some place I want to go where the game won't let me), and I love the pretty postcards in prerendered. Riven was the prettiest, but I liked the 360 view in Exile, and Revelation, with the clouds, and the sunshine, and the movement, was wonderful. I'm just in shock that Myst V is to be the last of this storyline. My only consolation is that it is coming out as soon as it is. And then, Something Else!

IMForeman
01-14-2005, 03:31 PM
I am greatly preferential about realtime. I love moving around with complete freedom, watching things move in perspective, listening to the panning sounds around me... it all makes for a more immersive experience for me . Though, I must say that Revelation's new node engine was very effective, it just doesn't beat realtime for me.

-IMF

Nick_tl
01-14-2005, 07:34 PM
Inversity at top of thread:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I just can't stand it to be kept inside a slide projector when we have the capability to actually be in the world with full free movement. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
and BY IMForman above:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I love moving around with complete freedom, watching things move in perspective, listening to the panning sounds around me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Its a trade off pre-rendered Riven Exile revelation may give better images but this is essential in that type of enviroment because you focus your attention on the image. i am sure we all remember in Riven jsut "sitting" and looking at the view.

But in a real time enviroment the added stimulus of being able to wander around and move anywhere compensates for the lack (if any) of textural detail . the brain sort of fills in on the fly as you move around thats what generates true immersion

(and admission from me the above as those of you that know me form elswhere may know I am a bit of a theorist as I cannot yet play URU) the only 3D enviroment I have ever explored is the original version of Quake where my aim is to kill everythin g so I can explore without nastyies even with horrendous blocky images the immersion compensates for the limted textures)

Terrapin (2005 the year I will finnaly buy a new PC)

Scythephantasm
01-15-2005, 10:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nick_tl:
Its a trade off pre-rendered Riven Exile revelation may give better images but this is essential in that type of enviroment because you focus your attention on the image. i am sure we all remember in Riven just "sitting" and looking at the view. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, here's my two cents . . .

Myst I - IV I found more immersive because it was just he veiw, like looking at this world through your own eyes.

Uru, even though I thoroughly enjoyed it, I didn't find as immersive because
A) You had an avatar, which you could not fully render to your specifications, and didn't looks as realistic as you're used to (but that's really a given, seeing as how hard it is to make a computer generated person look real)
B) Even though it was beautifully rendered, you could still see angles and such on occasion, or weird little technical glitches, or anything else that removed from the "smoothness" of the image.
C) The third person view, in my opinion, detracted from the realism of "actually being there," although it did help out in certain scenarios. In prerendered, you're always in the right place for an action, but in realtime you need to be in a specific space, which can be frustrating (trying to find that last Great Zero Marker).

That's what I have to say about the subject. But we don't know the exact specs for EoA, so who's to say how it will be? Perhaps it will all be awesome, and I'll be eating my words.

Mmmmmm . . . words . . . http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Kai.Uwe
01-15-2005, 12:21 PM
Is there any information, when we will be able to play a demo of Myst V? As I know, Cyan wants to release Myst V in spring, it should be possible to make a demo in a very short time! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

DudeMiester
01-16-2005, 01:14 AM
If you need amazingly good physics then just use the Meqon engine.

But seriously Myst 5 better have insane graphics. Absolutely bleedling edge computer crushing graphics. HDR (bloom, exposure, tone mapping, etc), precomputed radience transfer, radiosity info stored as spherical harmonics, combination soft shadow volumes and maps, 1 million polys per scene, dyanamic loading, view dependant adaptive tesselation on a variety of iso & polynomial surfaces, displacement mapping, parallax mapping (perhaps even relief mapping), etc, etc.

Couple with insane physics ala Meqon as I mentioned.

JennyH
01-16-2005, 07:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kai.Uwe:
Is there any information, when we will be able to play a demo of Myst V? As I know, Cyan wants to release Myst V in spring, it should be possible to make a demo in a very short time! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Myst V is set to release in the Fall of 2005. Please see this announcement (http://mystworlds.ubi.com/us/index.php) on the Myst Worlds Site.

I haven't heard anything about when a Demo might be available. I would imagine the time frame being very similar to Myst IV though.

Ian [Atrus]
01-16-2005, 11:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JennyH:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kai.Uwe:
As I know, Cyan wants to release Myst V in spring, it should be possible to make a demo in a very short time! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Myst V is set to release in the Fall of 2005. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understood that the development of Myst V will end in the spring, but it will released in the fall to put a little distance between it and Revelation.

A demo would be nice...

JennyH
01-16-2005, 06:18 PM
Yes they probably will be finished in the spring. I would imagine that they would wait until midsummer for a demo. This is based on my own ideas of marketing strategy and not any information. I have to wait until Monday to ask. I think it will be a little early in the game to find that information out since things can occur in development that push the date back.

Mysthints
01-16-2005, 06:43 PM
Oooh..."demo"...music to my ears... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Nebodin
01-16-2005, 08:17 PM
I seriously doubt it will be anything like what you are expecting DudeMiester. From the screenshots I have seen it looks like a marginally improved version of the Uru engine, and that was pretty good but hardly bleeding edge.

One of the main problems with cutting edge graphics at the moment is that on the majority of today's hardware you receive poor framerates. Bad framerate is a serious problem for fast paced first person shooters, but a game like Myst is perfectly suited for some of the more experimental and computationally expensive graphics techniques that are available now.

However, we get graphics like that of Uru, which aside from higher res textures in greater scale and number, and more polys, look pretty much like the graphics of several years ago.

I'm not really sure why this is the case though. I understand that the average Myst fan probably has a below average (average in quality not quantity) computer, but top end graphics are highly scalable, so with most features turned off should still perform well on lower speced machines.

I am assuming they simply don't have the money that they used to have to invest in the development of the highest quality graphics, or even to license the better engines that are available. I would love to see a myst game done with the Unreal Engine 3.0 for example *drools at idea*. Imagine a realtime 3d myst game that looked like this: http://www.unrealtechnology.com/screens/p_embry2.jpg

IMForeman
01-16-2005, 09:19 PM
The problem with that is that the Myst market is already small enough without further marginalizing it by using an engine that would require hardware that only the most serious hardcore gamer would have... and most of those guys twitch if you even whisper the word MYST.

A realtime MYST has to

a: Look good
b: Run on as many machines as possible.

The Plasma engine is just the ticket for that.

DudeMiester
01-24-2005, 12:37 AM
Sorry to raise an old thread, but I don't visit too often.

I'm disappointed. I mean really. I've been buying Myst games because of the combinations of the puzzles, story and visuals. If Myst V is sub-par on the visual side, I won't buy it. I didn't buy Uru either, and have no intention to. My parents will probably get it, and thus I'll still probably play it someday, but I'm too cheap to spend money on something that won't make my jaw drop.

That's life I guess, lol. Especially ironic considering how involved I was with Myst 4, they should have stuck with 2D imho. sigh...

My 6800GT needs a workout, and no game dev is delivering!!

I just hope some glimmer of hope can raise my spirits. The screenshots are quite good though, especially the beach one, hard to see polys on that. Still I need more before I can judge. Someone convince me.

Then again I suppose there is no pleasing someone who can look at a UE3 screenshot and tell you how it could be improved, lol. They need to add some form of radiosity light information storage. I know the already use SH on characters, but that's only for bumpmap self-shadowing. They should use it, or another method, to store radiosity information. I would also very much like to see some simplistic caustics. Oh that would be so nice! Also, ray tracing should be used here and there as an added effect, such as horizon mapping on some surfaces, or perhaps with the caustics, or to do some volumetric rendering, just to add a little flair. On the physics side, games are too static these days. They should have support for a variety of iso-surfaces, some voxels, some meta-balls, NURBs, and other things like that. Not everywhere, but here and now to spice things up. There should be many destructable objects, collapsable buildings, mechanical devices that are really simulated not just an animation (traps, those marble track things, gears, etc). I really want to see the geometry of the scene come alive, not just the lighting. Oh and use ABT trees please, they are far less limiting then BSP and more GPU friendly then bog standard kd-trees.

lol, if I made a game most people's computers would start to bleed, then when they ask where's the blood coming from, I tell them the game is that realistic!

Alahmnat
01-24-2005, 02:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DudeMiester:
I'm disappointed. I mean really. I've been buying Myst games because of the combinations of the puzzles, story and visuals. If Myst V is sub-par on the visual side, I won't buy it. I didn't buy Uru either, and have no intention to. My parents will probably get it, and thus I'll still probably play it someday, but I'm too cheap to spend money on something that won't make my jaw drop. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sounds to me like you're buying it for the graphics first and foremost, rather than because of the combination of the graphics with the story and interactivity (puzzles).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>That's life I guess, lol. Especially ironic considering how involved I was with Myst 4, they should have stuck with 2D imho. sigh... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Cyan didn't make Revelation, UbiSoft did. Cyan is making Myst 5, not UbiSoft. Thus, you can't say that they should have "stuck with" anything.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I just hope some glimmer of hope can raise my spirits. The screenshots are quite good though, especially the beach one, hard to see polys on that. Still I need more before I can judge. Someone convince me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, I dunno if it'll convince you of much, but I'm composing my own thoughts on this whole issue to be posted in another thread shortly... Sounds to me though that you've already talked yourself out of buying what will in all likelyhood turn out to be a fantastic experience though...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Then again I suppose there is no pleasing someone who can look at a UE3 screenshot and tell you how it could be improved, lol. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Throwing out the rest of your comments as a bunch of babble that - while I understand it - is by no means necessary to tell a good story, allow me to say that I can see a number of things in the Unreal shot that either annoy me or which I feel could stand some improvement, and I found Uru to be a compelling adventure through fantastic and incredibly imaginative worlds, and am quite certain that End of Ages will be as well. Again, it sounds like you're much more intent on giving your system a workout than you are on experiencing a good story from a company known for releasing games with good stories.

kitzingmarko
01-24-2005, 04:22 AM
Looking at a screen shot and saying 'Oh there are so many things that could be improved and this and that' is ridiculous.
You know nothing at all and this useless term-dropping looks like mental masturbation to me.

My choice of words was inappropriate (again), so I apologize.
Let's simply wait and see

JennyH
01-24-2005, 05:33 AM
Kitz check your PT.

Keep it civil please.

DudeMiester
01-24-2005, 09:25 PM
Yes, I admit I'm a graphics *****. I do like a good story though, but I don't know. When I think of Myst I think jaw-dropping visuals with an amazing story and interesting puzzles. No one part without another, so without the jaw-dropping graphics, it feels incomplete.

I know who made which games, I was talking about the Myst series in general, when I referred to them staying 2D.

Yes I may not get a fantastic experiance, but I prefer to spend my money only on outright mindblowing experiances. These are few and far between in the gaming world. If Myst 5 gets rave reviews (and I consider reviews the testimonies of regular people, not just "professionals"), then I might buy it. I don't think I'll be waiting in line at the crack of dawn though.

Now as for my supposed "term dropping", Alahmnat would have easily been able to tell if I was BSing. I know what each and every one of those things I described are, and could tell you about their technical background. I don't say I'm an expert, and I don't know many of the intricate details for such things, but I have an general understanding of what it is and what is can be done with current hardware. And if I do need the details, I know where to find them. I'm not an expert, but I do have a big interest in the technical side of graphics, and have for about 3 years now, during which I have studied the topic in my spare time.

btw, I have a big list of resources I use, if you're interested I can PM it.