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View Full Version : Did the council help? Will R6 return to it's roots?



chilly-willy
03-07-2006, 10:23 PM
Given the volumes of feedback UBI has recieved I think it must be clear to the developmet team that a return to the roots of this series would be preferred by the PC player.

What role has/will the feedback submitted to the council play in the development of this release? I realize no promises have been made and no real info is avaialble but surely someone somewhere has a gut feeling about the direction the new PC version will take. If you are in the know, can you give us/me a hint?

Oh yeagh, one more thing. When can we expect a demo? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Just kidding...

sx_amazing
03-07-2006, 10:33 PM
As Goliath mentioned on another thread, the people that developed Rainbow Six 3 (RavenShield) and Black Arrow will be working on this project. This is good news http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

chilly-willy
03-07-2006, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by sx_amazing:
As Goliath mentioned on another thread, the people that developed Rainbow Six 3 (RavenShield) and Black Arrow will be working on this project. This is good news http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

Great! Did he mention that here? I tried to read everything before posting and didn't see it.

Good, good, good.

sx_amazing
03-07-2006, 11:17 PM
He created a thread and posted some information about this project.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8081011862/m/6061061024/p/3

Deosl
03-08-2006, 01:02 AM
We don't know yet, we'll have more to work on soon.
As you noticed big things are happening.

dave819831983
03-08-2006, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by sx_amazing:
As Goliath mentioned on another thread, the people that developed Rainbow Six 3 (RavenShield) and Black Arrow will be working on this project. This is good news http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

Erm although I feel that lessons have been learned with regard to what pc players actually want black arrow was a console game. so I assume that we are talking about the people who made RvS fo Xbox.

Is this a good thing?

SODsniper
03-08-2006, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by dave819831983:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sx_amazing:
As Goliath mentioned on another thread, the people that developed Rainbow Six 3 (RavenShield) and Black Arrow will be working on this project. This is good news http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

Erm although I feel that lessons have been learned with regard to what pc players actually want black arrow was a console game. so I assume that we are talking about the people who made RvS fo Xbox.

Is this a good thing? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think it is as bad as it could be.

I pointed out in another thread, the XBOX is really nothing but a computer with a P3 733mhz, 64 megs RAM, etc etc etc. It runs Linux flawlessly and could probably run earlier versions of Winblows.

Any game designed for the XBOX would be a kissin' cousin to a PC designed game.

jsonedecker
03-08-2006, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by SODsniper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dave819831983:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sx_amazing:
As Goliath mentioned on another thread, the people that developed Rainbow Six 3 (RavenShield) and Black Arrow will be working on this project. This is good news http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

Erm although I feel that lessons have been learned with regard to what pc players actually want black arrow was a console game. so I assume that we are talking about the people who made RvS fo Xbox.

Is this a good thing? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think it is as bad as it could be.

I pointed out in another thread, the XBOX is really nothing but a computer with a P3 733mhz, 64 megs RAM, etc etc etc. It runs Linux flawlessly and could probably run earlier versions of Winblows.

Any game designed for the XBOX would be a kissin' cousin to a PC designed game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is completely true and point taken from a technical standpoint. I'll point out that a lot of times in game development though, design differences between a PC and console game are made due to console being played on a TV and controler "limitations" and not necesarrily the horsepower of the console.

It's tough designing a competent UI and control scheme for a console game.

-John

reggo
03-08-2006, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by jsonedecker:
That is completely true and point taken from a technical standpoint. I'll point out that a lot of times in game development though, design differences between a PC and console game are made due to console being played on a TV and controler "limitations" and not necesarrily the horsepower of the console.

It's tough designing a competent UI and control scheme for a console game.


Is it an important enough issue in our "multi-platform developpement" era ?

Or asking my question differently:

Are these differences alone important enough to justify the assignement of two different DEV team to a game, that is, one for PC and the other one for consoles?

This question does put aside all external considerations, like different target customers, different scheduled releases for each platform, etc.

reggo
03-08-2006, 07:28 PM
Those are the main people credited for "Rainbow Six 3: Raven Shield" (Read from the manual):

Producer:
Chaddi Lebbos

Associate Producer:
Patrick Naud

Senior Producer:
Mathieu Ferland

Lead Game Designer:
Michael McCoy

Game Designers:
Daniel Bérubé
Maxime Béland

Lead Programmer:
Ӱric Bégin


The manual of the Xbox version of RS3 does not display the creative team. If the PC version was ported to the Xbox by UBI Montreal though (I don't know), one can assume the team for RS3 and BA is the same as for RvS.


So, according to what Geiger said, some (if not all) of these guys are behind the PC version of R6-5.

Is that right Geiger ?

jsonedecker
03-08-2006, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by reggo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jsonedecker:
That is completely true and point taken from a technical standpoint. I'll point out that a lot of times in game development though, design differences between a PC and console game are made due to console being played on a TV and controler "limitations" and not necesarrily the horsepower of the console.

It's tough designing a competent UI and control scheme for a console game.


Is it an important enough issue in our "multi-platform developpement" era ?

Or asking my question differently:

Are these differences alone important enough to justify the assignement of two different DEV team to a game, that is, one for PC and the other one for consoles?

This question does put aside all external considerations, like different target customers, different scheduled releases for each platform, etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

IMHO no, I couldn't justify running a whole new team just to come up with a new UI and control scheme. But, definately a seperate arm of the design team to focus solely on ui and controls of each platform.

Throw in the other stuff you talked about and it becomes a more compelling situation to run multiple dev teams. I actually think that Ubi is testing some uncharted waters right now by having not only different platforms developed by entirely different teams using entirely different tech, but even between SP and MP of the same sku. If anyone could pull it off it would be Ubi with thier diversity and talent, but I have wondered on occasion if the products would come off as disjointed or start to oversaturate the market with too much diversity.

It's interesting to watch from the outside.

-John

WhiteKnight77
03-08-2006, 07:51 PM
Ladies and gentelmen, for those of you who do not know the name jsonedecker, let me introduce to you, one of the level designers of R6/EW, RS/UO/COE and GR/DS/IT, John Sonedecker of RSE fame. I want to say that it was his levels that I feel gave the games their feel and allowed the games to be played in the ways that they were.

It is of my opinion that whomever creates the new levels for R6:5 consult with him to understand how a level should be created for the R6 series.

I also find it interesting that the thing he mentions about console games is not neccessarily the hardware of the console, but the TV that is the problem when designing a game for a console, but I would imagine so as a TV has a fixed, low resolution screen compared to a PC monitor. Thanks for opening our eyes John.

FI_FlimFlam
03-08-2006, 07:59 PM
Thanks for letting us know WhiteKnight and thank you John for your insight and time to come here and share you thought with us.

I second WK's suggestion to have the level designers consult with him for the next R6 iteration. (no more linear levels please).

jsonedecker
03-08-2006, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by FI_FlimFlam:
Thanks for letting us know WhiteKnight and thank you John for your insight and time to come here and share you thought with us.

I second WK's suggestion to have the level designers consult with him for the next R6 iteration. (no more linear levels please).

I have worked with some really good people up there in Montreal that are on this project to. Hey Chadi!
I have no idea where Ubi is headed as a company, what type of product they are trying to make or who they are making it for, but there are some very talented people up there in the great white north. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-John

Yen Lo
03-08-2006, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by sx_amazing:
As Goliath mentioned on another thread, the people that developed Rainbow Six 3 (RavenShield) and Black Arrow will be working on this project. This is good news http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

The more I play RVS the more I love it as a pistol game. I think its awesome. Its not prefect, nothing is, but RVS really shines as a game for Pistol lovers.

DayGlow
03-08-2006, 08:33 PM
I have to agree, it's probably the best pistol shooter out there. I often do a terr-hunt with pistols. The double tap is just amazing in the game and no other has got the feel.

KungFu_CIA
03-08-2006, 11:14 PM
Mr. Sonedecker:

I have two, very specific questions for you:

1) Is there any techical reason there can't be non-linear maps for a console game like R6?

This is kind of a loaded question, but I would like to hear what an experienced level designer working in the industry has to say as I play both consoles and PC games like R6 and I am convinced there is no technical reason devs can't make non-linear maps (as a default) for current gen consoles like XBox and PS2, let alone next-gen consoles other than they don't want to, or are ordered not to because their superiors think console players don't want large, non-linear maps because they are "too complex".

This leads me to my second question...

2) Can complex games like the origianl R6/Rogue Spear be played on a console -- complete with multiple teams, pre-planning, jumping from operative to operative, etc. -- If the UI is streamlined enough to where all those functions are mapped to a standard controller pad?

The reason I ask this is because I am also convinced that as current console gamers mature (chronologically and otherwise) they will want more complex games like R6/RS and was wondering if there is any reason games like this can not be designed for consoles other than, once again, devs don't want to, or are ordered not to because of the stereotype only "little kids" play consoles and (again), games like this would be too complex.

Thanks for your time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Brettzies
03-09-2006, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by DayGlow:
I have to agree, it's probably the best pistol shooter out there. I often do a terr-hunt with pistols. The double tap is just amazing in the game and no other has got the feel.
Word.

jsonedecker
03-09-2006, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by KungFu_CIA:
Mr. Sonedecker:

I have two, very specific questions for you:

1) Is there any techical reason there can't be non-linear maps for a console game like R6?

This is kind of a loaded question, but I would like to hear what an experienced level designer working in the industry has to say as I play both consoles and PC games like R6 and I am convinced there is no technical reason devs can't make non-linear maps (as a default) for current gen consoles like XBox and PS2, let alone next-gen consoles other than they don't want to, or are ordered not to because their superiors think console players don't want large, non-linear maps because they are "too complex".

This leads me to my second question...

2) Can complex games like the origianl R6/Rogue Spear be played on a console -- complete with multiple teams, pre-planning, jumping from operative to operative, etc. -- If the UI is streamlined enough to where all those functions are mapped to a standard controller pad?

The reason I ask this is because I am also convinced that as current console gamers mature (chronologically and otherwise) they will want more complex games like R6/RS and was wondering if there is any reason games like this can not be designed for consoles other than, once again, devs don't want to, or are ordered not to because of the stereotype only "little kids" play consoles and (again), games like this would be too complex.

Thanks for your time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'll do my best to answer in general terms. But remember, I'm not associated with Ubi so whatever I say doesn't necessarily apply to anything they are doing.

1. There isn't a technical reason why non linear maps cannot be done, but there is certainly an argument. From the xbox/PS2 on it's generally about eye candy. You can easily make a non linear map, but because you can see more at any given time things would need to be of a lower visual quality. If you make a map linear then you can have more focused visuals because you are only rendering a small piece of the level at any given time. For example, there is no reason why you couldn't make any of the old R6 maps on a xbox or PS2. You would definately need to comprimise the graphics to compensate though.

It's more of a design decision than anything. Like it or not, graphics and visuals are the driving factor these days and that get's even worse with the new consoles as they are incredibly powerful graphically. On the flip side, that power could be used to provide more open levels, but tone down some of this "cinematic" visual stuff everyone seems to be gravitating towards.

2. Sure. New consoles aside, I wouldn't want to be the one to design the planning UI of something like R6 on a console. Analog tv tech is 40+ years old and what you see on tv can vary wildly. All the UI elements need to fit into the safe frame area so the tv overscan doesn't make it slide off the edge and so on. A PC is a fixed resolution and one that is way more fine that a standard TV. I guess one way to look at it is go back and play R6 on at 640x480 and adjust your monitor so about 1/4" of the screen goes offscreen on all sides(maybe a bit too extreme).

There is also the issue of control scheme. No one wants to contort themselves to hit wild button/trigger combos on a gamepad. There is only a limited number of combonations one can use comfortably.

I'm not going to comment on where the franchise is going, it's not mine to comment on, but I'm glad to provide overall general design insight.

-John

reggo
03-09-2006, 10:39 AM
Those two questions were really pertinent KF and I deeply appreciate that Mr. Sonedecker gave us his insight into it!

Thanks to both of you!

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Mx21
03-09-2006, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by sx_amazing:
This is good news http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

Not when you consider the fact that RvS was an extremely buggy game that had patches every other week at times, had awful netcode, awful AI, and run and gun gameplay.

XtincT-
03-09-2006, 12:57 PM
this is a good thing indeed.

SODsniper
03-09-2006, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by Mx21:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sx_amazing:
This is good news http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

Not when you consider the fact that RvS was an extremely buggy game that had patches every other week at times, had awful netcode, awful AI, and run and gun gameplay. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And yet, after all these years, there are still thousands of game servers active...

If RvS is an example of one of UBI's screw-ups, I can't wait to see one of their successes!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Mx21
03-09-2006, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by SODsniper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mx21:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sx_amazing:
This is good news http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

Not when you consider the fact that RvS was an extremely buggy game that had patches every other week at times, had awful netcode, awful AI, and run and gun gameplay. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And yet, after all these years, there are still thousands of game servers active...

If RvS is an example of one of UBI's screw-ups, I can't wait to see one of their successes!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Last time I checked there were only around 50 up in the UK, and not much more in the USA. It's only been 3 years since it was released, other online games like Quake 3 were still extremely popular after 3 years. RvS is not even in the same league, or even on the same planet. I played Quake 3 for years, so I should know.

Mx21
03-09-2006, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by Mx21:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sx_amazing:
This is good news http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

Not when you consider the fact that RvS was an extremely buggy game that had patches every other week at times, had awful netcode, awful AI, and run and gun gameplay. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

+ Awful performance problems.

mYm-Mercy-
03-10-2006, 03:25 PM
I must admit I still don't feel comfortable witht the Council, as it imo still not contains all elements in gaming. Im sure they will do whatever they can on getting the right game according to "most of us", but I see no one on the council that is looking into and knows what it takes for a game to be used as a game in professional gaming. So I am a bit afraid that we will, if they are listened to, get a great game, but which can not be used in pro-gaming as the elements therefore are missing.

The reason for this is first of all that i hoped for RvS to be the game that made it, but due to reasons we all know, it didn't. So if we get a new and improved RvS, we still have the same problem in pro gaming as before and any company that denies the fact that getting a game to be used in pro-gaming is not worth the "extra", they should stick to making console games.

So enlighten me, has anyone looked into what it takes for a game to be what we want (Yes you have), but what about the other part? (I doubt it very much)

And please don't patronice my post, as I actually make a living in the pro-gaming/eSports industry, so to me and the ones in that, its a key issue and i'm only into this since im a hardcore R6 fan and would like to see it represented there.

Deosl
03-11-2006, 03:48 AM
All I can say is that I've brought up this subject on e-sport/online spectator & replays/demo recording in the council.
If you have any input or suggestions on how to improve R6 for e-sport scene please do so.

or just hit me up on msn...

Relenquish
03-11-2006, 04:05 AM
Co op e-sport, would be awesome if you could implement that. Very unlikely, but still awesome.