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View Full Version : Would you belive a real life Luftwaffe P-38?



XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 12:31 PM
I found this on the home page for the 357th Fighter Group/8th AF. Now this really blew my wig back there wasn't any info on the Captured P-38. Only this picture...

<Center>
http://www.franka.clara.net/images/P38.jpg

Lt Roland Wright/ 357th Fighter Group USAAF

<Left>
A Luftwaffe P-38 Lighting....
Hmmm I guess they got tired of flying crappy aircraft and decided to steal them selves a REAL fighter. lol

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Message Edited on 08/10/03 06:35AM by Copperhead310th

Message Edited on 08/10/03 06:39AM by Copperhead310th

Message Edited on 08/10/0306:45AM by Copperhead310th

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 12:31 PM
I found this on the home page for the 357th Fighter Group/8th AF. Now this really blew my wig back there wasn't any info on the Captured P-38. Only this picture...

<Center>
http://www.franka.clara.net/images/P38.jpg

Lt Roland Wright/ 357th Fighter Group USAAF

<Left>
A Luftwaffe P-38 Lighting....
Hmmm I guess they got tired of flying crappy aircraft and decided to steal them selves a REAL fighter. lol

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<CENTER>Please visit the 310thVF/BS Online at our NEW web site @:
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Message Edited on 08/10/03 06:35AM by Copperhead310th

Message Edited on 08/10/03 06:39AM by Copperhead310th

Message Edited on 08/10/0306:45AM by Copperhead310th

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 12:32 PM
I see no pic /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

'Inappropriate words'

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 12:43 PM
D@mn iT! i dont know why i cant get images to link anymore!?/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

any way here's the image url.

http://www.franka.clara.net/images/P38.jpg


Just wonering if there were a lot of stolen p-38's in use by the germans.

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XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 12:45 PM
Try this site

http://pub157.ezboard.com/bluftwaffeexperten71774

scroll down to 'Captured Aircraft with the Luftwaffe'

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 01:09 PM
Judging by the angle of the tail booms, and the hasty quality of the insignia, it's possible that they found a crashed P-38, repainted it and took this photo for propaganda reasons. Whaddaya think?


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XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 01:12 PM
All sides used captured aircraft to put on display this would be what we have here

No1RAAF_Pourshot


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XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 03:20 PM
Copperhead310th wrote:
- I found this on the home page for the 357th Fighter
- Group/8th AF. Now this really blew my wig back there
- wasn't any info on the Captured P-38. Only this
- picture...
-


Try this link for info on captured P-38's:

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.co.uk/lockheed.html

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 03:23 PM
Lof of captured planes... of course P38 too..

http://www.luftarchiv.de/beute/b_17.jpg



http://www.luftarchiv.de/beute/p40.jpg



http://www.luftarchiv.de/beute/p38.jpg



http://www.luftarchiv.de/beute/ami2.jpg



http://www.luftarchiv.de/beute/p47.jpg



http://www.luftarchiv.de/beute/russ8.jpg



Hmm the La5FN in FB lookes much smarter than
the real one with it fat fuselage! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
http://www.luftarchiv.de/beute/russ2.jpg



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http://www.jg53-pikas.de/
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XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 03:59 PM
That P-38 looks really good in RLM colors

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XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 04:45 PM
For more details on captured aircraft, Jane's "Battles With The Luftwaffe" has quite a few stories and photographs of planes captured by the Luftwaffe. One section accounts for what happened to several B-17's that were flown by the Germans, and it also shows a FW-190 that was captured by the Americans and flown to Wright Field in Dayton for evaluation. The book tells about "Wulf Hound", the B-17 that the Germans captured nearly intact, then repaired it, painted it with German markings, and flew it around to Luftwaffe bases for training and evaluation purposes. This was a common practice on all sides.

There is an airport near my home that was a twin-engine training base during the war (Freeman Field, Seymour, Indiana). It was used later in the war as a captured aircraft evaluation center. Wright Field was getting full of captured aircraft, so the Army decided to use Freeman Field, since it was less than 200 miles away (as the crow flies) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif . Found another book in the library here about Freeman Field (wish I could remember the title). The book has a picture of the west entrance to the center - it had a FW-190 wing stood on its end, with the markings still on it. There were some interesting aircraft there, including a Horten 229 "Flying Wing"! Here' a link to some photos of Freeman Field:

http://www.jacksoncountyhistory.org/images/index.asp?folder=GovtFreemanField

Here's a link from Amazon.com that has some details on the Jane's book:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0007113633/ref=sr_11_1/002-1304126-6964064?v=glance&s=books&me=ATVPDKIKX0DER&vi=pictures&img=1#more-pictures

Not sure if the links will work properly. They work on the browser, but don't know how they will work when posted. Let me know if they don't work.

When I find the name of the Freeman Field book, I will post it.


Enjoy /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif ,


Olds

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 07:56 PM
well at least I dont fill so bad about useing german markens on WS planes now. (endeavor to persevere)

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 10:38 PM
Thanks for the link, Olds. Looks interesting.

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 10:49 PM
wow I knew they captured them but didnt realize they would actualy fly & fight them against the enemy figured theyd do more reverse enginearing than anything & also test flights vs there own ac to find weeknesses

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XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 10:53 PM
I read someplace that the Germans used at least one captured P-47 for reconnaissance over Normandy. Allied pilots reported spotting a German-marked Mustang during the Bodenplatte raids, but then aircraft identification by combat-distracted pilots is always a bit iffy.

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 11:04 PM
AFJ_Murdoc wrote:
- wow I knew they captured them but didnt realize they
- would actualy fly & fight them against the enemy
- figured theyd do more reverse enginearing than
- anything & also test flights vs there own ac to find
- weeknesses
-

That is what they did. The only actual combat missions by captured ACs were the KG 200 B-17s and B-24s which inserted Agents in France or North Africa. And this was not done because these were american aircraft, but because these planes were about the only ones available with the suitable range and payload. Ju 290s were also used, but there were not enough of these available.
All those KG 200 missions were carried out in german markings. I've heard of one or two occasions in which a B-24 was used for trailing RAF bomber streams, but nothing definitive. Anyway, strangely no german special operation ever made use of false markings or false uniforms. The Wehrmacht was pretty accute about following the hague convention in that respect. Even Count Almaszy (the "english Patient") rode across the desert in vehicles with Iron Crosses on them...

Captured western fighters and bombers were used at the "Zirkus Rosarius" (officially 2./Versuchsverband ObdL), named after its CO, Major Rosarius.
This unit toured german west front airfields with Spitfires, Mustangs, Lightnings and Thunderbolts as well as a B-17. They were to familiarize the fighter pilots of front units with enemy equipemnt from up close. There were mock dogfights and experienced pilots had the opportunity of flying one of those planes. East front units did not have that luxury; captured examples of new types were tested at E-Stelle Rechlin (the La-5 picture is taken there), and the findings were published and forwarded to units, but there was no opportunity to actually fly these planes for front pilots. Actually most russian captured planes were deemed unsafe to fly due to poor construction standards! But we germans are paranoid about construction standards anyway...


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XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 04:20 AM
The B-17 in the top picture in Abbuzze's post looks like Wulf Hound (from the tail number 125485, and the markings O1 XC.


Olds

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 05:49 PM
Nice link, Abbuzze!!

Hey... how about this for a skin? >B)

http://luftarchiv.de/beute/ami_m.gif

P-51C Ich bin ein Mustanger

Snorri!!!

<div align="center">http://www.watchhilldesign.com/posted/P39Blind.jpg</div>

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 12:36 AM
In Martin Caidin's book "Fork-Tailed Devil" there is the story of a captured P-38 that was used to down wounded bombers. Eventually the Allies set a trap for him and shot him down with one of the YB-40 Fortress conversions with added machine guns.

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 12:38 AM
Caidin is a good fiction writer./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Loves to embelish his stories, he does.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 12:44 AM
I'd be interested to see any proof of such embellishments.

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 12:54 AM
nt = No Text

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 01:09 AM
http://www.1stfighter.org/photos/Misc/P38%20Captured%20by%20Italians.html


The 12 of June, 1943 a lonely P-38 landed at Capoterra airfield on southern Sardinia. The Italians on the airfield cannot believe what was happening. A soldier, quickly, move a car just on the front of the aircraft to prevent a restart. The P-38's pilot was opening the canopy when he realize that he had landed on the wrong place. He tried to take off but it was too late to do it and he was captured. The pilot - his identity is unknown - was flyng from Malta to Gibraltar ( other sources says he was flyng from Tunis to Pantelleria ) to deliver a bag containing documents and mail. He landed at Capoterra almost out of fuel after a long trip above the Mediterranean Sea . Later was found a compass failure resulting in 30 degrees error on the route . The P-38 was probably an E model upgraded to G models. Voices says that last four digits of the serial number were 2278. The US insignia was covered with Italian Dark Green paint who was a bit darker respect the US Olive Drab. Then were applied white bands on the booms, Sabaudian crosses on the tails and spinners was painted in white. The Lightning was tested at Guidonia Experimental Center near Rome and later was used against US bombers. The Col. Angelo Tondi - a skilled Italian pilot - flyng with the P-38 shoot down a US B-24 Liberator off Anzio coast at 11am of August 11, 1943, six of B-24's crew bailed out from the aircraft . The Italian Lightning had a no long flyng career because the German synthetic fuel used by Italians corroded P-38's fuel tanks and the aircraft was forced to stay on the ground, but US reports says that B-17s bombers were attacked by two P-38s on early September 1943. During another mission a damaged US P-38 was flyng close to US bombers needing protection. The bomber's gunners, thinking he was the " enemy " P-38, shoot down the aircraft.


The Italian P-38 disappeared . Its ultimate fate is unknown.



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XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 01:23 AM
SKIDRO_79FS wrote:
- I'd be interested to see any proof of such
- embellishments.
-
-

The story of that P-38 as told by Caidin does not appear to coincide with the known facts.

All sources agree that a P-38 was captured near Cagliari, Sardinia in June of 1943.

Caidin says the Italian Pilot's name was Guido Rossi. The real pilot was a Colonel Angelo Tondi.

Caidin claims the name of the American Pilot of the YB-40 was Harold Fisher and that he died flying during the Berlin airlift. A check of names of those who died during the Berlin airlift reveals no such name.

Berlin Airlift memorial page:

http://www.usafe.af.mil/berlin/memorial.htm ( <A HREF=)" target=_blank>http://www.usafe.af.mil/berlin/memorial.htm</a>

http://www.usafe.af.mil/berlin/memorial.htm

The Italian P-38 was involved in a combat on 11 Aug 1943 in which a B-24 was shot down. The P-38 was damaged during that combat and was still under repair on 8 Sept 1943. Caidin's story takes place on 31 August, 1943 when it could not have flown.

Source : http://www.luftwaffe-experten.co.uk/axis.html


From another source:

There is at least one occasion in which Lightnings served with Axis forces, joining the list of aircraft which served on both sides during World War II. The Regia Aeronautica managed to obtain an intact P-38G when it had been forced to land on Sardinia on July 12, 1943 due to navigation equipment problems during a flight from Gibraltar to Malta. The captured P-38G was repainted in Italian markings and was flown to the experimental center at Guidonia for evaluation. It was flown from there on August 11, 1943 by Col Angelo Tondi to intercept American bombers. Tondi is credited with possibly shooting down one B-24D Liberator. However, the Italian P-38G was grounded shortly thereafter because of a lack of spare parts.

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p38_19.html



Photos of the captured P-38:

http://www.1stfighter.org/photos/Misc/P38%20Captured%20by%20Italians.html

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 07:19 AM
Thanks, I find it hard that Caidin dropped the ball so bad on this one. In later printings of the book he corrected some of the details that were wrong in earlier printings of the book wonder how this one got by him?