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XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 02:12 PM
Sure hope Oleg includes differential braking on some of his changes. Any realistic take-off in a high performance Aircraft like the K4 is impossible without the ability to apply the right brake.{Left brake on the Spit} The tremendous torque on these light Airframesis going to twist you off the runway
Also, since Oleg himself says that only a small percentage of us play on-line, why are the A1 aircraft such cheats.Hope to see these things addressed in the future.. Those I-16's are driving me nuts. The bombers too, perform like a pitts special at an Airshow. Maybe He'll fix it. Nothing I can do except bring it up in the Forum. Maybe He'll listen. Maybe not.I can always quit playing and quit buying, But I'd rather see it fixed sometime in the near future.

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 02:12 PM
Sure hope Oleg includes differential braking on some of his changes. Any realistic take-off in a high performance Aircraft like the K4 is impossible without the ability to apply the right brake.{Left brake on the Spit} The tremendous torque on these light Airframesis going to twist you off the runway
Also, since Oleg himself says that only a small percentage of us play on-line, why are the A1 aircraft such cheats.Hope to see these things addressed in the future.. Those I-16's are driving me nuts. The bombers too, perform like a pitts special at an Airshow. Maybe He'll fix it. Nothing I can do except bring it up in the Forum. Maybe He'll listen. Maybe not.I can always quit playing and quit buying, But I'd rather see it fixed sometime in the near future.

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 02:28 PM
Strange! I've been using differential brakeing in IL-2/FB since day one nearly 3 years ago! On all a/c.

I'd never join a club that would have ME as a member!!.

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 02:31 PM
ehm, for us well...who doesnt have a clue what "differential braking" is...what is it? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Boos16
249th
RSO

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 02:35 PM
Boos16 wrote:
- ehm, for us well...who doesnt have a clue what
- "differential braking" is...what is it?

It means that the brakes on the left and right main wheels are controlled individually so that you can steer with braking.

To be a bit more helpful about the functionality in IL-2 and FB, it is like it is today in many russian aircraft. You have one brake (by default the B key) and if you apply rudder at the same time, it brakes in the direction of the rudder. So... full left rudder and braking means full braking on the left mains and no braking on the right.
_
/Bjorn.

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 02:40 PM
Boos16 wrote:
- ehm, for us well...who doesnt have a clue what
- "differential braking" is...what is it?

The ability to apply either left or right brake independantly so as to stear the a/c on the ground.

Apply full left rudder, press "B", left brake goes on and the a/c pivots around the left wheel. Do the opposite to stear right!

How is everybody else stearing on the ground?


I'd never join a club that would have ME as a member!!.

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 02:54 PM
prozac70 wrote:
- Sure hope Oleg includes differential braking on some
- of his changes. Any realistic take-off in a high
- performance Aircraft like the K4 is impossible
- without the ability to apply the right brake.{Left
- brake on the Spit} The tremendous torque on these
- light Airframesis going to twist you off the runway
- Also, since Oleg himself says that only a small
- percentage of us play on-line, why are the A1
- aircraft such cheats.Hope to see these things
- addressed in the future.. Those I-16's are driving
- me nuts. The bombers too, perform like a pitts
- special at an Airshow. Maybe He'll fix it. Nothing I
- can do except bring it up in the Forum. Maybe He'll
- listen. Maybe not.I can always quit playing and quit
- buying, But I'd rather see it fixed sometime in the
- near future.

I'm sure that this thoroughly researched piece of analysis
will lead to major changes in all flight models. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

If you think the I-16's are modelled in some wrong way, it might be a good idea to look for real life figures, and compare them with the behaviour of the same planes under similar conditions in Forgotten Battles.

/slush


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You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 03:11 PM
ummmm ...

my mechanics would kill me if I used braking on a regular basis when taking off.

the take off phase is for GOing,

not STOPing

Aircraft are not cars ...

the brakes aren't usually built to be used until the last bit of forward motion of the aircraft needs to be completed.

I'm not sure how it was in WWII in wood/cloth a/c, but try to take off using your ailerones and rudder. That is a much better practice ...

... and it keeps your mechanics and owners happy.

Falcon



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XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 03:26 PM
If we had had true tail-dragger directional instability we'd need diff braking on takeoff, especially in crosswind conditions. Now the planes are rather benign in their light tendency to curve away at take off, so it's not a problem.
_
/Bjorn.

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 03:41 PM
My apologies about the braking. I've been flying this sim for a long time and didn't know that if you applied rudder and hit the brake the differential braking kicked in.again, my aplologies for this error
Falcon. I don't appreciate your patronizing attitude Are you that way all the time?.Are you flying a jet? Of course there is negligable torque in a jet. I have been fortunate enough to have been a passenger in some WW2 Aircraft.I have also flown light aircraft for a long time and will agree that brakes are not used much. However when you are taking off in a WW2 Aircraft with a giant piston engine and a great big prop the torque is viscious. Talk to a WW2 fighter pilot sometime.Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. When all that horsepower is applied to that big prop it is goig to start turning. When it turns the torque is going to do some strange things. WW2 carrier pilots had some hair raising times trying to keep that hellcat straight on take-off.
Does everyone agr

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 03:43 PM
I would like to see some damage from dragging wings, people just gun the trottle in the props and take off any angle not many use the runways bouncing all over and wings dragging looks so cheap i think.


With braking hold down the brake gun the trottle you can do 360s rudder simulates left and right brake while holding down the brake button but i would like to see 2 keys for left and right braking, Also the p40 and tb3 shouldnt nose over from rolling over grass, something wrong there too you need to full back pressure to roll over grass??? Im sure they know about it but will they try to work on it is another.

http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/lead.txt
Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 03:54 PM
In Il2, hold down B and hold down Z, brakes left wheel, B and X brakes right wheel. Should be the same in FB...

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 04:01 PM
Swingman- You are correct Sir.
Leadsplitter and Swingman- Thank you for your civil replies.

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 04:33 PM
Uhm using the brakes during take-off? that's the most rediculous thing I've ever heard. Why use your brakes? it only slows the plane down wich increases the chance that you'll smash into something at the end of the runway.

Moving your rudder to the desired direction will have the best effect in most planes.

And with the I-16 and the I-153 also I think, smashing your throttle to 110% from the start, doesn't work. The torque will bes so great, it can flip the plane upside down. Most WWII fighter aircraft had this effect and is greatly simplified in FB.

You might wanna advance the throttle to about 70% and when the tailwheel lifts, advance it to full power (I always use 100%)

It is not a bug, it is a feature.

And in the case you really REALLY want to apply brakes (when taxi-ing for instance, NOT on take off) try applying rudder and pressing the "b" key at the same time.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

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Message Edited on 10/14/0304:34PM by Platypus_1.JaVA

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 04:46 PM
Platypus- Sir , you astound me.

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 04:53 PM
Prozac,

Read Platypus' post too. Do not use brakes on takeoff. Reread my post, there was no patronizing intended. I'm afraid any sort of condescension was generated completely from your attitude and mindset. Take a prozac and relax. I apologize for any confusion you may have had reading my post.


Falcon

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Message Edited on 10/14/0305:24PM by Falcon_41

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 05:06 PM
On my maps taxing is a must, I usually line the edges of the runway with trees, plane bunkers and other objects so braking is a must especially for a bomber making a tight turn when you line up to taxi.

To those who say runways in wwii didnt have trees by them http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
http://www.infiniteworld.org/sirena/images/2001%2008-05%20-%20Sirena%20-%20Runway%20to%20the%20%20beach%20-%20%20%5B001%5D.jpg


http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/lead.txt
Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 05:07 PM
Yes that's something I noticed after a long time. Could never take off in I~153 with rockets cos I was flipping over until I thought....the power was too much so I start full to get moving, reduce to maybe "70%" until I get tail up and then goto full.

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 05:52 PM
Falcon1-Not condescending? Quote "The take off phase is for going not stopping" also "Aircraft are not cars" If this is not condescending then I do indeed need another dose of prozac. However, You did apologise, even if it was laft handed, insisting that it was in my own mind. I admit to being 71 yrs. old but I can still read the English language

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 05:54 PM
ahem


The defense rests, your honor.


Falcon

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XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 06:06 PM
Falcon1- LOL. Good place for a rest. I'm going to let the whole question rest,

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 08:17 PM
Well, all is can say is that none of these guys would even get to the run-up area, let alone take off without differential brakes in a high performance taildragger.

There is definite merit in the suggestion that power can be advanced gradually to prevent actually going over on a wing, and in the sim that is useful, but this is actually another issue entirely. (though one that applies more to the real world than to this sim)

I haven't often need brakes while actually on the takeoff roll once about 30 mph is reached, but before that speed the control surfaces are not terribly effective and there is very little adhesion of the tailwheel, and when decelerating, and just after lowering the tail on the landing rollout they are absolutely necessary if there is a crosswind (particularly from the left). A trike pilot wouldn't recognize this as a fact however because their aircraft have no groundlooping tendency, they do not have to worry about the gyroscopic forces involved with raising and lowering the tail, they can land in a stiff crosswind and just let all the lateral loads go into the gear with no harm done.

Get some stick time in the pattern flying a PT-17. . . then come back here and re-read your replies. ;-)

It would be nice if the toe brakes could be used on CH pedals and such, as it is I just have brake on the left toe brake only, and have to press that while giving right rudder for right differential brakes. . . kinda awkward, but this sim has very trike like ground handling in it anyway so I can get away with it.


S!
TX-EcoDragon
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Reserve Pilot Aircraft #2 of Gruppo 313
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Message Edited on 10/14/0312:51PM by TX-EcoDragon

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 08:24 PM
Ahem... Real taildragger pilot here. You do NOT use differential braking on takeoff only rudder./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/waynespics/images/Hawkinplane.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 08:49 PM
Not strictly true as some aircraft required a "tap" on the brakes to bring the tail up in to the air stream as the wing obscured the tail and disturded the air flow there for a little help was required although it sounds dangerous

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 08:51 PM
I bow to the expert./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/waynespics/images/Hawkinplane.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 09:19 PM
Other than the slightest taps just at the right time on the brakes to lift the tail IF you feel you need it, it is poor practice and poor procedure to use brakes on takeoff.

~12500 hr TT
~500 hr Beech 18
~250+ hr tail dragger


Falcon

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XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 09:24 PM
Hawk- Are you a tail dragger pilot with 1500 to 2000 H.P. winding up in front?

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 09:38 PM
IKP_Hawk wrote:
- Ahem... Real taildragger pilot here. You do NOT use
- differential braking on takeoff only rudder./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
<img
- src="http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/waynespics/im
- ages/Hawkinplane.jpg">
-

And what do you presume I am? ;-)

If we are talking about a Champ, Cub, Luscombe, Taylorcraft, Citabria or Decathlon then we aren't talking about the same thing.

I did most of my initial tailwheel flying in a PT-17 and a T-6, and have a few hours in the P-51 (which has nice wide gear, long tail moment, and sits low and is tame when compared to the T-6 and the PT-17, and I imagine the 109), now I fly the Pitts S-2B and C, Extra 200 and 300L, and Super Decathlons most often, and there is simply no comparison. Even the lightweight Extra with 300 horses is tame on the ground when compared to these WWII aircraft, the rudder is more than effective as soon as some prop wash is blowing over it unless there is a stiff crosswind from the left, then even in this aircraft a bit of right brake has proven to be required when starting the takeoff roll. In the Stearman and T-6 it is a far more common event that you hit the stop and need more. . . and the only place to get it is the brakes.

In addition, the ground loop tendency of these aircraft is many times more pronounced than most modern tailwheel aircraft, and even at low taxi speed you will often find yourself needing to brake in opposition to the lateral displacement from uneven ground, a light breeze, and ahem . . PIO (pilot induced oscillations)

It may not be an ideal practice for the majority of takeoffs, and the conditions that require it may not be ideal, but it most certainly happens in these aircraft, and if your relying only on the rudder, and afraid to dip into the brakes, and your flying one of these types of aircraft, you may very well find yourself upside down with broken wings. Sure you can take off diagonally, but sometimes it isn't enough, in these situations making a no-go decision might be a good course to take, on the other hand, if you fly somewhere where the winds are never in your favor, and you fly a finicky tailwheel aircraft, you just might have to resign yourself to using some brakes!

As I said before though, none of these factors are present in the sim and you can taxi these planes like you would a trike (or even a Super Decathlon).

I don't normally make comments regarding what other posters say, but the attitude that was dished out seemed uncalled for, and wasn't particularly correct under all circumstances.


S!
TX-EcoDragon
Black 1
TX Squadron XO
http://www.txsquadron.com

Reserve Pilot Aircraft #2 of Gruppo 313
Pattuglia Acrobatica Virtuale
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Message Edited on 10/14/0301:53PM by TX-EcoDragon

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 10:06 PM
elvive wrote:
- Not strictly true as some aircraft required a "tap"
- on the brakes to bring the tail up in to the air
- stream as the wing obscured the tail and disturded
- the air flow there for a little help was required
- although it sounds dangerous

This was the case with the taildragger prototype of the Me-262. Thus was the plane given a tricycle landing gear.

Reference:

http://www.flightjournal.com/articles/wilde_sau/wilde_sau_1.asp

The first photo in the article is a nice pic of the taildragger; the caption of the second photo mentions tapping the brake on takeoff.


---
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(If I knew who said that first, I'd give credit here.)

HL callsign: FruitPieJones, and why not?

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 10:16 PM
TX-EcoDragon. I remember tho old Stearman pretty well. It was called " The yellow peril" and if it had not been for brakes it would have been disastrous in even more instances..If you could land it well, you could handle just about anything. My Brother -in-law crop dusted in one a short time after WW2. Darn near killed him. He had two 55 gallon drums as hoppers. The loader was only supposed to fill 1 drum. He did. Then His helper came along and filled the other. He crashed on take-off but got out alive. He still got a "Pilot error" on his record. He said he should have aborted as soon as he realized the Stearman was too sluggish.

Message Edited on 10/14/0310:06PM by prozac70

XyZspineZyX
10-14-2003, 10:17 PM
"The Me 262 was changed from a tail-dragger to a tricycle configuration because when the tail was low, the wing's angle of incidence rendered the tailplane ineffective, and that made the elevators unresponsive to control inputs. The technique developed to raise the tail was to tap the brakes when the 262 gained sufficient speed; the tail would then rise, and the elevators would become effective. Those in charge thought this too much for the average Luftwaffe pilot to handle, so a nosewheel was added. The new nosewheel version still needed an entire runway to lift off"

Still very dangerous and a aircraft with lttle or no engine torque

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 02:38 AM
I think at this point I can agree with all posts in one way or another. There is obviously a need to help steer any taildragger with differential braking, especially the heavier aircraft with lessened rudder effectiveness and higher horsepower. That is to say I would use my brakes until lined up for the takeoff run. However, I would not reccommend the use of brakes after the takeoff roll has begun unless it is a quick correction at the very start of the run. If more correction is needed than the control surfaces can handle then you should abort the takeoff and find another runway. You must use common sense not to endanger yourself or an expensive aircraft in a wreckless manner.

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 03:05 AM
Dawhole9yards wrote:
- I think at this point I can agree with all posts in
- one way or another. There is obviously a need to
- help steer any taildragger with differential
- braking, especially the heavier aircraft with
- lessened rudder effectiveness and higher horsepower.
- That is to say I would use my brakes until lined up
- for the takeoff run. However, I would not reccommend
- the use of brakes after the takeoff roll has begun
- unless it is a quick correction at the very start of
- the run. If more correction is needed than the
- control surfaces can handle then you should abort
- the takeoff and find another runway. You must use
- common sense not to endanger yourself or an
- expensive aircraft in a wreckless manner.
-
-
I wholeheartedly agree with Dawhole9yards. Some pilots over estimate their abilities and dont use good judgement. I would never intentionally plan to use my brakes after the takeoff roll has begun. I hope my preflight planning is better than that. Only in an emergency

"A mans got to know his limitations."
Clint Eastwood http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 03:33 AM
Dawhole9yards and whurst1,

Those were prudent, thoughtful, mature, professional and accurate posts, thank you for raising the level a wee bit.

Falcon

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Message Edited on 10/15/0302:34AM by Falcon_41

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 05:04 AM
bump

http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/waynespics/images/Hawkinplane.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 05:47 AM
- I wholeheartedly agree with Dawhole9yards. Some
- pilots over estimate their abilities and dont use
- good judgement. I would never intentionally plan to
- use my brakes after the takeoff roll has begun. I
- hope my preflight planning is better than that. Only
- in an emergency
-
- "A mans got to know his limitations."
- Clint Eastwood http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I am not sure why you think getting type specific training and employing it would be related to bad pre-flight techniques or poor judgment, or did I miss what we were talking about?


I fly a PT-17 out of SNS, we have the luxury of long crosswind runways there, though any safe Stearman Pilot will need to be able to handle their aircraft even if they have a crosswind. I recently purchased some property at Q68, and this is a short, sloping, tree covered, mountainous airport. Either you are proficient, or you aren't going to last a day there. I sought out a little dual time with a CFI friend of mine who has a PT-17 based there (even though I have owned my Stearman for 4 years now) because I thought I might want to fly with someone who is accustomed to this airport. I never really needed to use brakes other than during taxi turns, but having a 3600x50 foot runway that is lined with trees and mountains and never seems to be aligned with the typically gusting winds changed that. I haven't flown any of the aircraft in this sim, but I would venture a guess that they would be in the same league as an aircraft designed to train pilots to fly them.



Tom "Bernie" Bagley

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 06:43 AM
No argument here.

Cheers

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 07:07 PM
"The P-40's torque taught me a lesson about taking care of my equipment. During ground operation one could turn most airplanes right or left by using the rudder. Not so with the P-40! Because of the torque, the only way to turn to the right was with full right rudder and braking; therefore, the right brake would wear out much faster than the left."

Entire article:

http://www.1stfighter.org/warstories/hoffman.html

This account suggests that braking is even more pertinent when flying the P-40 that he flew than the PT-17 and AT6 used to train pilots. (not that anyone should be surprised, more power always equals more torque!)



Tom "Bernie" Bagley