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MB_Avro_UK
12-31-2005, 04:49 PM
hi all,

Many years ago, my driving instructor (for a professsional qualification) was a Hurricane pilot in North Africa during WW2.He was a very dour Yorkshireman (but aren't they all? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

He moaned that they always received ammo,fuel and rations but it was never possible to receive letters from home!!

He also recounted the following story:

He and his squadron of Hurricanes were flying over the desert when he noticed a similar number of bf109s flying alongside. He did not radio his sighting as he wanted to survive the war! Gradually, both formations drifted apart.

That evening in the bar it transpired thet other pilots had seen the enemy but also had not raised the alarm.

I wonder what had been said in the German bar? Maybe they had reached the same conclusion?


Best Regards,
MB_Avro

ploughman
12-31-2005, 04:53 PM
Shouldn't you be in the pub?

I've had only a few discussions with veterans, mostly because most veterans aren't very chatty about their experiences.

One was with my sister's husband's dad who was with the 101st at Bastogne. Never seen so many dead people, he said, bodies everywhere. He thinks he may've shot a kraut with his pistol.

One was with an old family friend who was at Kohima. Jeez.

Tooz_69GIAP
12-31-2005, 04:57 PM
A guy I work with, his father was in the army, and he fought through into Germany. He told me that while his father's regiment were crossing over the Rhine, they encountered a fortified position manned by fantical female hitler youth, or something. Despite very intense heavy fighting, they simply could not dislodge the defenders.

There was also a kind of reluctance to fight the women, the british guys didn't feel right about shooting women, even though they were shooting a them. Not so the RAF! A bunch of Typhoons appeared and loosed off full salvoes of rockets onto the position. Bye bye resistance!

berg417448
12-31-2005, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
hi all,

Many years ago, my driving instructor (for a professsional qualification) was a Hurricane pilot in North Africa during WW2.He was a very dour Yorkshireman (but aren't they all? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

He moaned that they always received ammo,fuel and rations but it was never possible to receive letters from home!!

He also recounted the following story:

He and his squadron of Hurricanes were flying over the desert when he noticed a similar number of bf109s flying alongside. He did not radio his sighting as he wanted to survive the war! Gradually, both formations drifted apart.

That evening in the bar it transpired thet other pilots had seen the enemy but also had not raised the alarm.

I wonder what had been said in the German bar? Maybe they had reached the same conclusion?


Best Regards,
MB_Avro

I saw a Mustang pilot being interviewed on TV once who told a similar story. They were climbing up through some clouds and as he and his wingman came out of the clouds they formed up on some aircraft up ahead....they thought it was the rest of his flight. They flew formation for a bit and then he looked over and saw that the other aircraft were 109s! He said that the nearest 109 pilot looked over at him and for a few seconds they just continued to fly formation. At the same moment the 109s broke one way and the 2 Mustangs broke the other. Each formation flew off in a different direction.

FoolTrottel
12-31-2005, 05:59 PM
One would tend to want to survive, wouldn't one?

Similar number of 109's?
The Hurri's must've been in the sun I guess...

(Yeah, I know, must've been either early morning or late afternoon to have a sun that low in that region)

TC_Stele
12-31-2005, 08:10 PM
....don't even flinch.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

I talked to a tail gunner of a B-24 in the pacific once. He said that during runs the Japanese planes would arrive but not dare engage them on several occasions.

MB_Avro_UK
01-01-2006, 01:40 PM
Maybe worth a bump....??

chris455
01-01-2006, 02:07 PM
I've heard several accounts like this, from different wars, said to have taken placee both in the air and on the ground.
The reason that comes to mind is a saying whose author I cannot recount, but who must have been a veteran himself:
"The eager are not experienced, and the experienced are not eager"

MB_Avro_UK
01-01-2006, 02:15 PM
Hey chris455,

"The eager are not experienced, and the experienced are not eager"

Best quote I've seen in ages http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Low_Flyer_MkII
01-01-2006, 02:24 PM
I read a story years ago that stayed with me concerning a medic with the U.S. Airborne in Normandy, June 1944. He went into an orchard following a firefight and treated both German and American wounded according to their needs. As he was finishing off, it began raining cigarettes, thrown by appreciative German snipers hiding in the trees above him.

ElfunkoI
01-01-2006, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkII:
I read a story years ago that stayed with me concerning a medic with the U.S. Airborne in Normandy, June 1944. He went into an orchard following a firefight and treated both German and American wounded according to their needs. As he was finishing off, it began raining cigarettes, thrown by appreciative German snipers hiding in the trees above him.

I would literally sh1t my pants. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

SeaFireLIV
01-01-2006, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:

There was also a kind of reluctance to fight the women, the british guys didn't feel right about shooting women, even though they were shooting a them. Not so the RAF! A bunch of Typhoons appeared and loosed off full salvoes of rockets onto the position. Bye bye resistance!

I get the feeling that their (the RAf`s) command probably neglected to mention the defender`s sex somehow... otherwise i think the typhoon drivers may have been a little more reticent...

Interesting, first time I`ve heard of fanatical female nazi resistance. Are there more such accounts?

p-11.cAce
01-01-2006, 09:54 PM
I think that in the "modern" era of wars we fight from a distance (for the most part) we forget that most soldiers from both sides are just regular guys trying to live through the war and get back to their sweethearts. It is perfectly reasonable for regular guys to not enjoy killing - even in war.

DONB3397
01-01-2006, 11:27 PM
I have a neighbor, now 85, who was a forward observer with the artillery (a 105 mm battalion)in the 7th Army. Life expectancy in combat for FO's was short. With a glass of wine or two, he'll recount some funny stories.

In the early fall, 1944, the 7th was redirected from a planned landing at LaHavre, around Gibralter and landed unopposed in Marsailles. By that time, the Wehrmacht was spread pretty thin in southern France, he says. So his unit spent a lot of time zeroing in potential enemy locations, one valley at a time.

He met a young 2nd Lt. who flew a spotter plane, an L4 (J3 Piper). Now and then, this Lt. would take Frank, a Sgt., with him to locate potential targets. And on one cloudy day they were scouting a valley down low, with the tops of the ridges above them. Suddenly, German artillery opened up along one of the ridges, firing at Allied positions on the opposite side of the valley. The Allies returned fire, and the sky above them was laced with shells...some fired line of sight, ridge to ridge, and others lofted high to get behind the ridges.

The Lt. wasn't interested in climbing up through this curtain of steel, nor did he want to be hit by one of the 88's above them. So, for nearly an hour, he flew erratic figure 8's down in the valley, ducking behind small hills and large trees every chance he had.

Finally, they found a narrow road leading out of the valley toward the allied side, and flew above it until they were clear. Then, Frank says, they headed off toward the Meditteranean shore. On the way back to base, the Lt. flew along the shore until he found a stretch of beach he knew about. He banked the plane and pointed down, gesturing to Frank to grab his field glasses. There, along the beach, the locals were swimming and lounging around totally nude. Frank said they circled the beach while the folks waved and posed. The pilot grabbed his box camera and, holding the stick between his knees, shot a roll of film.

Frank said he never got to see the pictures. Nor could he find the beach when he took a jeep with a couple of buddies and went looking.

His unit moved north and east and ended the war on the edge of Munich. His primary duty, he said, was staying alive. It was cold, muddy and exhausting even though he saw some of the most beautiful terrain in the world. He didn't go back until he retired in the late 1980's. His health is starting to fail, but his memory is clear and he still has an engineer's precision when he recounts his experiences. I count myself fortunate to know him.

slo123
01-02-2006, 02:29 AM
Originally posted by ElfunkoI:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkII:
I read a story years ago that stayed with me concerning a medic with the U.S. Airborne in Normandy, June 1944. He went into an orchard following a firefight and treated both German and American wounded according to their needs. As he was finishing off, it began raining cigarettes, thrown by appreciative German snipers hiding in the trees above him.

I would literally sh1t my pants. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i second that except for the colorful word

rnzoli
01-02-2006, 03:11 AM
Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
He and his squadron of Hurricanes were flying over the desert when he noticed a similar number of bf109s flying alongside. He did not radio his sighting as he wanted to survive the war! Gradually, both formations drifted apart.

That evening in the bar it transpired thet other pilots had seen the enemy but also had not raised the alarm.

I wonder what had been said in the German bar? Maybe they had reached the same conclusion?



(Sarcasm on)

No, not at all. The German planes did not engage, because they were on Jabo mission, being too heavy for a dogfight. The German pilots therefore reached the conclusion that the British pilots are cowards. The 109s continued their attack mission, bombed the designated ground troop positions and then shot down 3 transport planes in the same area. 51 British soldiers and 8 airmen were killed by this German mission alone.

But at least the 4 coward Hurrican pilots could pat each other on the back in the pub that night for surviving that day, and they continued to 'fight' the Germans in the same fashion until the war ended.

| Sarcasm off |

ploughman
01-02-2006, 05:13 AM
Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
I think that in the "modern" era of wars we fight from a distance (for the most part) we forget that most soldiers from both sides are just regular guys trying to live through the war and get back to their sweethearts. It is perfectly reasonable for regular guys to not enjoy killing - even in war.

I saw a show last year that was about how armies turn nice young men who are kind to animals into killing machines. Apparrently, most soldiers of Western armies of WWII weren't very good when it came to killing, they'd spray and pray, aim near but not at enemy personnel, the actual percentage of dedicated killers who would deliberatly aim to kill was very low.

"Maj. Kilner is pushing America's current crop of Army officers to help their soldiers confront the morality of killing on a personal level. Failure to address these issues in training, Maj. Kilner argues, can sometimes disable soldiers in combat, and leave them more prone to psychological traumas after the battle is finished.

"My goal is to break the taboo. Let's start talking and see what develops," Maj. Kilner says.

The U.S. military's views on how to equip soldiers to kill grew out of work by Brig. Gen. S.L.A. Marshall during World War II. Gen. Marshall determined that fewer than 25% of U.S. riflemen in combat fired their weapons.

"Fear of killing rather than fear of being killed was the most common cause of battle failure," he wrote. Critics have since raised questions about the reliability of Gen. Marshall's data, but the premise of the report -- that many soldiers balked at pulling the trigger -- has been widely accepted.

To overcome this resistance the Army began training soldiers on lifelike pop-up targets that more closely resembled what they would see in actual combat. Soldiers repeat the same drills until their reactions become second nature.

The training has worked. By Vietnam 90% of soldiers fired their weapons. Maj. Kilner, who went to Iraq as part of a team writing the official Army history of the war, recalls interviewing a soldier in Kirkuk who had been walking a patrol when a sniper's shot grazed his uniform.

"The soldier heard the round, turned and fired two shots into the enemy sniper's chest and kept walking just like he would have on the range. His company commander was so proud," says Maj. Kilner."

http://cryptome.org/mil-kill.htm

LEBillfish
01-02-2006, 09:51 AM
One of my husbands old customers I understand initially joined the Merchant Marines before the U.S. officially declared war.......He had 3, count em...1...2...3.. Freighters torpedoed out from under him in the North Atlantic surviving each time.

Realizing he was serving a rediculously hazardous duty......He figured he had had enough of being shot at, so when the U.S. declared war joined the USAAC.......What could be safer, serving in England attached to bombers him believing since he was an Engineer on the ships he'd be set up in Bomber maintenance.

Uh uh...........

Because of his size, being somewhat short and lean............They made him a Tail Gunner on a B17. Supposedly 2 B17's shot out from under him later.....He was captured and became a P.O.W. where he met a life long friend on the other side of the fence of his compound.

I can't recal the camp his new friend was in....but believe it was either Dachau or Buchenwald....His friend having a tattoo on his fore arm.

War over, his friend survived and emmigrated to the I believe it would be the Netherlands (Dutch?)....Where he after be introduced to the queen was promptly required to enlist in the Dutch army......He ended up quickly being sent to Indo-China/Vietnam where they served till withdrawn then immigrating to the U.S. to live out his days with his friend.

ploughman
01-02-2006, 10:00 AM
My paternal grandfather had two merchantmen sunk from under him. He couldn't swim but survived both incidents, his brother was less lucky when his merchantmen met up with a German surface raider early in the war.

The Dutch, immediately after World War Two, fought in the Indonesia, formerly the Dutch East Indies, in attempt to restore their colonial empire. The war lasted into the late 1940s ('49, I think). The French were attempting the same thing in Indo-China.

Heliopause
01-02-2006, 11:48 AM
LEBillfish:
War over, his friend survived and emmigrated to the I believe it would be the Netherlands (Dutch?)....Where he after be introduced to the queen was promptly required to enlist in the Dutch army......He ended up quickly being sent to Indo-China/Vietnam where they served till withdrawn then immigrating to the U.S. to live out his days with his friend.

Indo china? If he was in Holland it was probably Dutch East Indies (Indonesia) were last troops pulled out in 1951.

LEBillfish
01-02-2006, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by Heliopause
Indo china? If he was in Holland it was probably Dutch East Indies (Indonesia) were last troops pulled out in 1951.

That would entail me having taken the time to learn the difference.....Niether terms I use often.

MEGILE
01-02-2006, 05:39 PM
Different pilots.. different mentalities...

Jonny Jonson for 1 was desperate to get in the thick of it and "be at 1 with the enemy".
But then he was not your average pilot.

blakduk
01-02-2006, 07:10 PM
There are many accounts of soldiers being unable to kill their enemy. A classic account from the American civil war described an encounter from just prior to Getttysburg (forgive my lack of detail, i cant find the reference) when a detachment of Union rifleman hid behind a stone wall ahead of a Confederate advance. They apparently sprang the trap perfectly, stood as one and fired at the advancing Confederates when they were only a few paces away. Once the smoke cleared a stunned silence ensued- not a man had been hit!
Later investigation found they had all deliberately aimed high.
Intensive training- called 'stimulus-response' is used to overcome our innate reluctance to maim others.
Fortunately very few human beings are psychopaths. It has sometimes been stated that when they are identified they should be locked in a container marked 'Release only in times of war!'

ploughman
01-03-2006, 02:35 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Heliopause
Indo china? If he was in Holland it was probably Dutch East Indies (Indonesia) were last troops pulled out in 1951.

That would entail me having taken the time to learn the difference.....Niether terms I use often. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That reminds me of a conversation I had 20 odd years ago (this is not a dig at LEBillFish or America, it's just a story) with a senator from Arkansas. He was on some senate sub-comittee for foreign affairs that had the Middle-East as its area of specific interest, as I'd recently been living in Oman and had spent some time around the Musandam Penninsula which is the southern part of the Straits of Hormuz and was of particular interest at that time I mentioned this to him and he said, "Oman, sorry son, I've never heard of there."

Now maybe he was just messing with me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Vortex_79
01-03-2006, 04:26 AM
~S~

Last summer I was at an airshow in the Czech Republic where I got chatting to guy who had been a gunner on a Halifax Bomber. On his 24th and last mission he and his crew were shot down over Holland on their way to a target in Germany. Only two members of the crew got out.

He was lucky enough to be picked up by the Dutch Resistance was quickly moved onto a €˜safe house€ in Belgium. He was billeted in a large family house for 6 weeks, the mother and daughter looking after him while the man of the house who worked 12 hour shifts in a coal mine was completely unaware that he was staying there.

He would stay in the loft for the 12 hours that the man was there and then have the freedom of the house when he was at work. Should anyone call he simply acted as a deaf mute.

One day a German Patrol came searching for him and he hid in the cellar. He managed to hide under the stairs that went down into the cellar behind some barrels and although the patrol searched the place and at one time even waved there lighters (there was a shortage of batteries at the time) under the stairs, they failed to find him.

The consequences for him if found would have instant captivity, but for the family they would have been shot. The man of the house was taken away by the Gestapo and interrogated but because he knew nothing of his presence, there was nothing that he could tell them. He was eventually released.

A couple of days later with no warning another patrol arrived whilst they were having dinner, he had no time to hide so he sat in the dinnig room while in the kitchen there was a heated argument between the Geramn Officer and the lady. Eventually the German Officer came storming in to the dinning room and he had to bluff it out. He just sat at the table and completely ingnored the fact that he there! The Germans who were actually looking for somewhere to base a HQ, shouted and screamed not only at the mother and daughter, but him as well. He of course could show no reaction at all being €œa deaf mute.€ The Germans became more agitated and in the end left.

The decision was made that he had leave at once but before he could pack his things the Germans came back. There was a lot of commotion in the house as it was turned upside down when there was a knock at the door. A lady with pram and a little girl arrived and at the top of her voice she announced to the little girl that if she didn€t behave, then daddy wouldn€t push her pram home. He had no idea that this was going to happen and just played a long acting like a husband to this woman, leaving the house, pushing the pram with the little girl in it out through the courtyard which was full of Germans and away he went!

He made it back to the UK via France, Spain and Gibraltar.

He also told of another Squadron member who made it back after being shot down near Berlin and his story although shorter, was more incredible. In short, he stole a push bike and rode it to the port of Hamburg in northern Germany. He wore the tyres out and had to steal another one before he located a Swedish ship and hid on board. He was found by the crew, but they made him leave the ship telling him to come back before it sailed in 12 hours time. When he came back, it had sailed without him. It was too dangerous for him to stay there, he had no choice but to cycle on. He then tried his luck in Bremen, but couldn't get near the port. He then cycled though Holland, Belgium and on in to France before being picked up by the Resistance where he eventually got back to the UK as well!

I had nothing but awe and the up most respect for this guy and I was spell bound as he told his story. I have been €œthe other side of the fence€ a number of times myself and I€ve often wondered how I€d cope in his situation. I just wished that I had had more time to spend with this chap and hearing more of his stories.

Sorry if this post has gone on too long, but I thought I€d share his story with you.

Here's a LINK (http://www.com-central.net/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1367&start=0) to a set of photographs that I took at the airshow.

_79_Vortex

http://www.79vraf.com

trumper
01-03-2006, 01:36 PM
Dont apologise,it shows a great deal of heroism on http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif