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XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 04:06 AM
I'm in the process of restoring the cockpit of a Bf109G6, and currently working on the oxygen regulator. I have it completely dis-assembled, and curious on how it was conrolled (i'm assuming it was done via natural air pressure on the pilots chest, as it was not electrical). I'm needing any pics, info, and schematics anyone may have.

Thanks!

Mike

http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/myme.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 04:06 AM
I'm in the process of restoring the cockpit of a Bf109G6, and currently working on the oxygen regulator. I have it completely dis-assembled, and curious on how it was conrolled (i'm assuming it was done via natural air pressure on the pilots chest, as it was not electrical). I'm needing any pics, info, and schematics anyone may have.

Thanks!

Mike

http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/myme.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 04:15 AM
Wow! You've got a real 109 cockpit? Lucky lucky lucky!

As for the O2 valve, I recall reading something about a rubber diaphragm. Like most O2 systems the O2 was on-demand flow. The valve opens when you inhale.

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 06:45 AM
you have a real 109g6 cockpit and YOU NEED PICTURES!!!! lol

I have no idea how it works but I do want to hear more about your restoration project.
do YOU have any pics?
I am working on a 1:24 scale g6 and am desprately looking for cockpit refrence.
wow lucky guy



http://www.seanruppert.com/josh/porcopine.jpg

Tully__
06-22-2003, 07:26 AM
Not aircraft regulators, but this page on Scuba diving regs should give you some idea of the general principles. I know household and automotive gas regulators use the same principles.

http://travel.howstuffworks.com/scuba1.htm




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Salut
Tully

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 06:26 PM
Hey guys, thanks for the input and link...think i have a bit of an idea from that scuba stff.. From the 109 manual, it states that above 4000 metres you would open the valve and place on the mask...the pressure should allow the regulator to "breathe" for you...hmmm...seems kinda simple.

I've attached some pics so hopefully someone with scuba/airtank experience will know what some of the parts "could" be.

I should have re-worded my original post a bit. At present i cannot show you any pics of the cockpit becasue i am only in the precess of "acquiring" the airframe. I found 2 for $50,000 US last year (F and G model), but someone in New Jersey beat me to it. Right now i am restoring the control panel, electonics, transformers, and anything cockpit related (seats, KG13, etc.). It's a bit cheaper for me right now anyway and less time consuming.

Here are some pics.

This is the whole unit completely disassembled.

http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/instrumetphoto054.jpg


...and here's the 'ole close-up.

http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/instrumetphoto055.jpg


http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/instrumetphotos047.jpg


Now, what i am guessing is that air pressure is naturally placed on the disks (black arrow), which in turn pushes the arm (blue arrow), which moves via the hinge (green arrow). This allows oxygen to be released. The pilot can manually increase the oxygen flow by pushing the silver arms (red arrow), via the outside round button (seen in other photo). The biggest concern i have is that the "disks" only move slightly, and not freely...

http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/instrumetphoto09.jpg


Now in this pic, i know the follwing...i hope /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Yellow Arrow = Oxygen from tanks to valve...
Blue Arrow = Line from valve to oxy reg.
Green Arrow = Line from oxy reg to gauges, thus showing the oxygen flow and pressure.
Purple Arrow = NOT SURE WHERE THIS LINE IS GOING !!!
Red Arrow = Bad oxygen to tank????

There are only 3 hook-ups on the valve (red, yellow, blue). If anyone had ANY ideas or suggestions, i would greatly appreciate it. Unfortunatly all the manuals i have are for the pilot, and nothing technical.


Here are some other interesting pics:

http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/instrumetphoto041.jpg


This is the ACTUAL horizon used on the later Bf109G-6's through K series...not the one modelled in the game. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Also, I am selling this Bf109 Pilot collection...

http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/wholepackage.jpg


It includes a massive pic of the pilot, and Temp Gauge from a 109 (though it is missing the glass), a leather map case, luftwaffe eyeglass case, pilot gloves (1 seam needs to be sewn back together, but otherwise alright), and 1 piece of the parachute. I need some cash to acquire some other parts, which is the reason i am selling it. I am asking $200US if anyone is interested.

Thanks!

Mike





http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/myme.jpg



Message Edited on 06/22/03 10:28AM by ptefuller

Message Edited on 06/22/0310:29AM by ptefuller

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 01:09 AM
bump

http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/myme.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 06:25 AM
really tough, for me anyway, without having it in my hands. i think i can help a bit...

it sounds and looks to me like a diluter demand regulator. a diluter demand system does 2 things.

1)it supplys the oxygen ONLY on demand (when you breathe in)

and 2) it mixes ambient air with the oxygen

this is basically how they work:

{ive tried about 4 times to explain this but im awful at wording things so ive dug up my old airframe textbook}

"When the supply lever is turned on, oxygen can flow from the supply into the regulator. There is a pressure reducer at the inlet of the regulator that decreases the pressure to a value that is usable by the regulator. The demand valve shuts off all flow of oxygen to the mask until the wearer inhales and decreases the pressure to a value that is usable by the regulator. This decreased pressure pulls the demand diaphragm over and opens the demand valve so oxygen can flow through the regulator to the mask.

A deluter demand regulator dilutes the oxygen supplied to the mask with air from the cabin. This air enters the regulator through the inlet air valve and passes around the air metering valve. At low altitude, the air inlet passage is open and the passage to the oxygen demand valve is restricted so the user gets mostly air from the cabin. As the aircraft goes up in altitude, the barometric control bellows (your "disks" most likely) expands and opens the oxygen passage while closing off the air passage. At an altitude of around 34,000 feet, the air passage is completely closed off, and every time the user inhales, pure oxygen is metered to the mask.

If there is ever smoke in the cabin, or if for any reason the user wants pure oxygen, the oxygen selector on the face of the regulator can be moved from the NORMAL position to the 100% position. This closes the outside air passage and opens a supplimental oxygen valve inside the regulator so pure oxygen can flow to the mask.

An additional safety feature is incorporated that bypasses the regulator. When the emergency lever is placed in the EMERGENCY position, the demand valve is held open and oxygen flows continuously from the supply system to the mask as long as the supply lever is in the ON position."

this is explaining a generic modern day diluter demand regulator. but it looks like yours has many of the same components.

the disks you talked about is probably a bellows. thats why it doesnt move up and down much and the disks do not move seperatly. it expands and contracts, in turn metering the amount of air mixed in with the oxygen.

instead of having a oxygen supply lever you have a valve that you unscrew open. i may be wrong on this one as i dont know what those big white disks are made of but when together it looks as if they would be against those two silver arms. prehaps this is the diaphram for the demand system. maybe when blowing into the mask those are either squished a bit by your lung pressure, or inflated...(again not knowing what they are made of). this either pushes together or allows those silver arms to pull apart closing the demand valve. i could be completely off and they could be air water seperators or air filters for all i know though.

the valve before the regulator, the one you said had 3 tubes coming from it, looks rather complex in your exploded view of all the parts there. im wondering if some of those passages should be in use but are capped off for some reason or another. im also curious what is in the cylindrical part at the top of the regulator.. it looks like theres a slightly lighter blue cap on the side and i dont know why the regulator would be cast like that if it didnt serve a purpose.

components to look for to help you figure this out:

1)pressure reducer at the oxygen inlet

2)a port for the gauge

3)demand valve

4)demand diaphragm

5)a vent port

6)a port to the mask

7)air metering valve most likely attached to a bellows.

8)an ambient air inlet port

9)a relief valve

10)a shutoff valve

11)some sort of emergency valve that blocks ambient air (maybe the "button"?)


2 levers were explained above. one that had a NORMAL and 100% position, and an EMERGENCY lever (on,off).

the emergency lever, when on, would basically turn off the "on demand" instead supplying oxygen continuously.

the NORMAL/ 100% lever, switched to 100% would close off the ambient air port giveing you pure oxygen. however you would still get that oxygen "on demand" (only when you breathe in)

i hope this helps a bit and doesnt make things more confusing. if anything it gives you a basic idea of how it may work as well as some parts to look for

S!


http://avg-pbs.freewebspace.com/pbssig1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 06:44 AM
i should probably also list what else it possibly could be if its not deluter demand.

Manual Continuous Flow Regulator:

would have a flow indicator and an adjustment know to adjust it. it may also have a gauge to indicate the amount of oxygen available. as the airplane ascends into the less dense air, the pilot would need to adjust the flow to correspond with the altitude being flown. the regulator would then meter the correct amount of oxygen

Automatic Continuous Flow Regulator:

an automatic regulator has a brometric control valve that automatically adjusts the oxygen flow to correspond with the altitude being flown. the pilot would need only open the valve on the front of the valve and the correct amount of oxygen will be metered into the system from the altitude being flown.



similar to the diluter demand that i explained in my first post is the

Pressure Demand Regulator:

Military aircraft fly at altitudes of more than 40,000 feet and at this altitude they must have provision to supply 100% oxygen under a positive pressure to the mask. When we breathe normally, we expand our lungs and the atmospheric pressure forces air into them. But at altitudes above 40,000 feet we cannot get enough oxygen into our lungs even with the regulator on 100%

Pressure demand regulators operate in much the same way as diluter demand regulators except at the extremely high altitudes, where the oxygen is forced into the mask under a positive pressure. Breathing at this high altitude requires a different technique from that required in breathing normally. The oxygen flows into the lungs without effort on the part of the user, but muscular effort is needed to force the used air out of the lungs. This is exactly the opposite of normal breathing.

(interesting but i dont know if its relevant. did 109's fly that high? kind of makes me wonder when your manual says it will "breathe for them" but..)

http://avg-pbs.freewebspace.com/pbssig1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 06:57 AM
PBS_DangerMouse wrote:

-
- (interesting but i dont know if its relevant. did
- 109's fly that high? kind of makes me wonder when
- your manual says it will "breathe for them" but..)
-



The K series did, ceiling up around 41,000 feet.


The Gustav according to my books came close at 39,750 feet

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 03:41 PM
Hey Guys!

Thanks for the info. Based on what you have explined, seem like you are correct...and a weeeeee bit confusing. However, i will look for the items you have listed, and see if i can get things straightened out.

I think you are spot-on with that"bellows" thing...seems REALLY tight though. I know the bottom plate will move up and down away from the mounting screw, but nothing else. Seems almost too tight for someone's breathing to control it. If the air pressure is high at 4000metres due to altitude, would this allow it to move more freely?

I'm off to work, so i will post some more simplified pics tonight, and hopefully describe each part based on what info you have given me.

Thanks again!

http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/myme.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 04:52 PM
Hi,

A bellows most likely wouldnt be controlled by the pilots breathing. I dont think it would be able to expand and contract fast enough. its most likely expands and contracts with the changing ambient cabin air pressure, as that would be a much more gradual change in pressure.

http://avg-pbs.freewebspace.com/pbssig1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 08:20 PM
Yep, he's right about the pressure breathing an absolute must above 40,000 to sustain life. In actual practice it kicks in far below that. The objective is more than just sustaining life, you want the guys fully up to snuff and fighting. Most regulators I've used start kicking in quite noticable positive pressure around 25,000 feet. By 35,000 your struggeling to exhale. Takes some getting used to, not a pleasant thing being force fed air.

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 04:30 AM
Okay...this took a while but...

Here is a translation that i managed to find on the Oxygen System. You are correct that it is a "demand" regulator. The Blue buttons act as a pressure release after descending below 4000m, and also as a manual release to increase oxygen while above 4000m.


http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/instructions.jpg

http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/instructions2.jpg

http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/instructions3.jpg


...hopefully i have the thing hooked up correctly...any errors you see, let me know.

http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/instructions4.jpg

http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/instrumetphoto64.jpg


I'm a bit confused on why the are 3 inlets...my only reference are the 109 pics from the previous posts...it would make sense for the left and right inlets to be for oxygen only...however the bottom one in the earlier 109 pic is clearly attached to the reducer

http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/instructions5.jpg

So basically, air enters the reducer, once the valve is opened. The 2 outlets on the reducer are for the 2 oxygen gauges (flow and pressure). Pure oxygen will get released into the chamber a) manually (pressing the bottons on the "lunge"...which by the way is made of a white cloth which seems breathable with a rubber seal); or b) automatically by the "bellows" which naturally adjusts depending on the air pressure (p.s. it only is moveable by about 1/2 mm. Just enough to open the valve). Could the inlet where it says "to air pressure gauge" be an inlet for the cabin oxygen or something? bit confused.

I'm not sure what the large cylinder thing is at the top (where i have the question mark). Looks like air passes through it, then back out again? I've included pics of the valve that allows air the "enter" this device. Where it says, "this is sealed", it is only the end that is sealed, not the entire shaft.

http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/instructions6.jpg


http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/instructions7.jpg



Thanks again for all of your help!

Mike





http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/myme.jpg



Message Edited on 06/23/0308:42PM by ptefuller

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 09:25 AM
ok here goes...

(the bellows, control arm, and valve) this assembly most likely is the air metering part of the system. Its metering how much ambient air is being mixed with the oxygen. as the aircraft rises and the air pressure falls, the bellows gradually closes off the supply of ambient air. the silver arm that is pushed with the button completly closes off the ambient air so that only oxygen enters the "lung."

(the bronze looking tube above that, and its internal parts) im guessing this is the demand part of the system. the bronze tube has holes on either side of the needle valve. when the pilot breathes in, the pressure inside the "lung" becomes lower than the air pressure on the oxygen side. this causes the oxygen to push the valve over and enters into the "lung" through the holes on the right side.



the port that you have labeled "to air pressure gauge?" i would think actually goes to the flow indicator. possibly the pressure gauge is what comes off of the 3 port valve. so you have "oxygen in", "oxygen out" and to pressure gauge.

things may not work exactly as im explaining here, but you can read this as its in your hands and can trace passages to see if it sounds right or completely wrong.

questions that i have:
1)the cylinrical casting marked (?) does it connect to the "lung?" if so it could be a vent for the demand valve.

2)im assuming that the valve the bellows controls and the silver arm valve allow air to flow in at that physical location. i dont know exactly where the valve is, if its there or deeper inside the blue section.

i hope this helps and i know its confusing, because of my poor explaining and no pictures or figures to help.

S!

http://avg-pbs.freewebspace.com/pbssig1.jpg



Message Edited on 06/24/0303:41AM by PBS_DangerMouse

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 08:58 PM
Hey PBS...

Okay, so the silver arms (controlled by the buttons) and the control arm (controlled by the bellows) both CLOSE OFF the valve which supplies the ambient air...hmm...i guess i thought it opened it. Question is though, WHERE is this ambient air coming from?

I've included a close-up of the Cylindrical (?) thing. As you can see, it had a port where the oxygen from the demand valve enters...


http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/Closeup2.jpg


http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/Closeup1.jpg


http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/Closeup3.jpg



Close-up of the valve...


http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/Closeup4.jpg


http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/Closeup5.jpg


http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/Closeup6.jpg





http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/myme.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 06:29 AM
ptefuller wrote:
- Hey PBS...
-
- Okay, so the silver arms (controlled by the buttons)
- and the control arm (controlled by the bellows) both
- CLOSE OFF the valve which supplies the ambient
- air...hmm...i guess i thought it opened it.
- Question is though, WHERE is this ambient air coming
- from?

yea remember that the metering valve is metering the amount of air AS WELL as the amount of oxygen thats going to enter the mask. at lower altitudes the oxygen can be deluted with more cabin air. but as you go up in altitude there is less oxygen. the metering valve begins to close off the supply of air to give you more oxygen.

think of it like a bathroom faucet. turn on the water and have the nob right in the middle. what you have is 50% hot water, and 50% cold water mixing and rushing onto your hands. feeling luke warm. start turning the nob towards the cold side. as you do this your getting more and more cold water and less and less hot water mixing. 75% cold + 25% hot and the water is colder than before. now turn it all the way to cold. no more hot water is being mixed with the cold. your getting 100% cold water.

the bellows is what senses the altitude of the airplane and as the plane gets higher, the bellows will expand gradually. gradually closing off the air, and opening up the oxygen.

a few things im still unsure of though.

1) is there a way for air to get into the cylinder(?) from outside the unit? the cap looks like it has two circular recesses but i dont know if they are holes or not.

2) why do you think there are two silver arms? the button only pushes one in right? while they may not move independantly, only one is physically being moved by the button...so whats the point of the second one? and why are they shaped that way?

3) im still not quite clear where exactly the passages in the blue section lead into the lung. is the metering valve deeper in that blue section doing its metering within the passages, mixing the air there, and then sending it up to the demand valve where it will enter the lung? or does air enter the unit through that valve between the silver arms? if i had to make a guess i would think that within the blue section the air will be mixed with the oxygen and the now metered air (air oxygen mix) will then enter together through the demand system. i dont think the air and oxygen would enter the "lung" in two seperate places.

once again im sorry im so poor at explaining things, i hope this helps

S!

p.s. all your photos are showing up as red x's. ive been copying the address to them and pasting it into a seperate ie window to view them. from what i hear geocities is not very reliable when it comes to hosting pictures and signatures. just thought ud want to know.



http://avg-pbs.freewebspace.com/pbssig1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 07:43 AM
PBS_DangerMouse wrote:

- 1) is there a way for air to get into the
- cylinder(?) from outside the unit? the cap looks
- like it has two circular recesses but i dont know if
- they are holes or not.

Here's a close-up (a bit blurry) of the only "outside" way for the ambient air to enter. The two circular recesses on the cylinder by the way, were only to unscrew the cylinder. The only entrance to this cylinder is where the upper brass tude forces oxygen through. There are about 8 holes on the side of the buttons. This shoould allow air to enter the unit. It seems as the air would only go as far as the white cloth disks, they maybe gets filtered/slowed down a bit by the cloth?

http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/instrumetphotos077.jpg


http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/instrumetphotos078.jpg



PBS_DangerMouse wrote:

- 2) why do you think there are two silver arms? the
- button only pushes one in right? while they may not
- move independantly, only one is physically being
- moved by the button...so whats the point of the
- second one? and why are they shaped that way?

There is a button on both sides of the unit to control the arms. The arms move in unison. This regulator was also used in many other aircraft, so depending on the aircraft the unit could be mounted on the port or starboard side, hence why there are buttons on both sides. The button was in the centre like that so the pilot could press the button with the side of his leg, or knee. This was quite common in the FW190.


PBS_DangerMouse wrote:

- 3) im still not quite clear where exactly the
- passages in the blue section lead into the lung. is
- the metering valve deeper in that blue section doing
- its metering within the passages, mixing the air
- there, and then sending it up to the demand valve
- where it will enter the lung? or does air enter the
- unit through that valve between the silver arms?

As far as i can see, the valve between the arms does not allow oxygen to enter as there is no opening. By the way, i did manage to find another pic, which demonstrates that oxygen goes into that 3-attachment valve at both ends. The 3rd one on the bottom sends the air to the regulator.


PBS_DangerMouse wrote:

- if i had to make a guess i would think that within
- the blue section the air will be mixed with the
- oxygen and the now metered air (air oxygen mix) will
- then enter together through the demand system. i
- dont think the air and oxygen would enter the "lung"
- in two seperate places.

I agree with you there. Although the following pic demonstrates the air mixing withing the "lunge", I now think the air mixes within the cylinder, then back out INTO the lung. Only concern, is that once mixed, it is going to mix again wih the ambient air as the entrance for this is through the lunge (at the buttons)


http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/instrumetphotos079.jpg



PBS_DangerMouse wrote:

- p.s. all your photos are showing up as red x's.
- ive been copying the address to them and pasting it
- into a seperate ie window to view them. from what i
- hear geocities is not very reliable when it comes to
- hosting pictures and signatures. just thought ud
- want to know.

DAMN THAT GEOCITIES!!!!! Everything looks okay from my end...wierd...

Thanks again for all your help...I've learned so much from you, so don't feel like your explanations are confusing.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Mike

http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/myme.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 10:14 PM
ok super, the clarification on the arms, valve, and buttons (w/holes) is very helpful. that has to be where the air is entering. when the pilot pushes the button it shuts off the ability of air to enter through the holes, at the same time its pushing the arm, completly opening the metering valve allowing 100% flow of oxygen.

now, lets dive into the demand system and the reducer(?). look at the shape of that valve. the oxygen side is squared off. also the spring holds it so that normally the right side holes are covered. because of its shape when the valve moves left it allows complete flow of oxygen. no metering there, its either on or off if you know what i mean. the other side however tapers off. depending on the position of the valve its open or closed a different amount. while the oxygens pressure alone is not stronger than the spring, couple that with the pilot breathing in and that valve overcomes the spring and slides left. as it goes left its opening up the oxygen holes. but at the same time it seems to be closing off the passage to the cylinder. (or at least restricting). why? also think about this. why is there a unscrewable cap on it? maybe because something goes inside there. can you unscrew it? if you did and there was nothing inside, were there any scratches, wear marks or discoloration on the inside wall possibly created by something vibrating or being taken out and put back in?

thats great that youve found another picture of the valve. i had been thinking a few things about that. i was thinking that the "to regulator" port was on the side of the on/off valve with only 1 port. on the side with two i though would be a logical place for oxygen coming from the cylinders and the pressure gauge. with them on the same side of the on/off valve even if the oxygen valve is off the pilot could read how much he had in the cylinders. if youve found a picture showing that there were two "oxygen in's" that may be a case of redundency then. i dont know where they cylinders are located within the airplane, but if one line was breached (shot up or whatever) you had the second one to continue supplying oxygen. in your second post you showed a simple diagram of the whole system.

you may want to translate some more.



setenwond/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif i think, its kind of blurry) im almost sertain will translate to firewall or something similar. i believe thats what that line dot line is depicting.

drchfohrung: is the point at which the hose passes through the firewall. im not sure if its also a valve of some kind as well though.

mulfe: theres two of them and i suspect they are either check valves or fuses.

most large aircraft have fuses for the hydraulic systems. without one, if a line broke all the hydraulic fluid would be expelled from the system. the fuse senses a sudden rise in the flow of hydraulic fluid and shuts it off. air is a fluid so im sure large aircraft have the same kind of fuses for their oxygen system. to the right side of the cylinders is probably a check valve and then the port on the aircraft where the oxygen is serviced.

i could be off on what some of those valves are, but a quick translation will solve that.

also it may be helpfull to know what kind of cylinders they are. the military used to use low pressure cylinders. which was stored under a pressure of approximatley 450 psi in large steel cylinders. today mostly high pressure cylinders are used with a pressure around 1800 to 2400 psi. might help paint a full picture of the system anyway.

yea i had the same problem with geocities when i was trying to find a place to host my signature. i think i went for like a week thinking it was working because i could see it but then someone told me all they saw was a red x. they said i could see it because it was saved on my computer or in my temporary internet files or something.

anywho, im glad i can help /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://avg-pbs.freewebspace.com/pbssig1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 06:04 AM
Hey PBS,

On the diagram, your translations are pretty bang on. The dotted line represents the Starboard Fuselage wall, as the Oxygen tanks were stored in the right wing. All the check valves and coupling are shown as well, as well as the access point under the wing to where the tanks were filled.

I'll try to open the Cylinder to see what's inside, but it hasn;t been opened since it was made, as the paint has sealed it.

The valve reminds me of my old modelling airbrush. Air would pass through a needle and mix with the paint. The "paint" being in the cylinder of the regulator. All this mixing is done in a similar way that you would "blow" on an empty plastic pop can to make that whistling sound...know what i mean?

I'm still a bit blurry on why it needs the spring. The pointed tapered cap has a hole in it, so either way, with spring tention or not, oxygen is going to pass through.

Hmmm...let me mess around a bit...

The tanks were pretty basic, i can send you a pic of the two types if you need.

In the mean time, ill try to open that cylinder.

Mike

P.S. I sealed up the unit and tried breathing through the tube where the mask is connected. I thought the circular white cloth disks were breathable, and they don't seem so. They flex inward and outward with my VERY stryggled breathing. Obviously i don't have the tanks hooked up, but shouldn't they not move at all if they were breathable? It could be because the whole thing is pretty much airtight apart from the valve openings, and they are moving from the shear pressure caused by my own breathing...now that i think about it more, that could be the reason...also i tried removing the cap on the cylinder, but it is TIGHT!!! Looks like that it wasn't mean't to be opened too often as the original paint is still covering it.

As far as the 2 Oxygen lines going into the valve, the pics i have show BOTH lines being painted blue with white stripes. This meant they were an oxygen lines, and the only conclusion i could come to was that the oxygen flowed almost in a circulating manner from oxygen tanks to valve, then back to oxygen tanks...then regulator would take from that. Does that make sense?

here's some pics of the tanks...first one is from the F to G-2 model...second from G-2 - K4

http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/oxysetlast.jpg


http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/oxygen_bottle.jpg


All it says on the bottle is:

W. L.
PR 225 A TU 2.03 LTR

Looks like Pressure and Capacity?

LEER 2.19 KG FULL 150 ATU

http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/myme.jpg



Message Edited on 06/25/0311:09PM by ptefuller

XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 07:36 AM
im curious, what specifically did each valve turn out to be?

also, that valve has a hole through the middle? im not sure i understand what you mean. would it be possible to take a few close ups of that?

im really curious whats inside that cylinder.

so your planning on restoring a 109? is it going to be airworthy or a static display? im asuming by your avitar that you live in canada. does canada have to follow the same FAR's that we do here in the states?

i used to own a piper cub. the guy i bought it from got it in canada, and restored it here in the states. he said it was a paperwork nitemare, but maybe the previous owners just didnt keep good records.

http://avg-pbs.freewebspace.com/pbssig1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 03:35 PM
Hi PBS,

Board wouldn't post my reply, so i'll try again.

The tapered cone that has a hole in it looks like the part from an airbrush. It has a hole through it about the diameter of a larger sewing needle. Whether the spring allows this needle to move left or right confises me, as air is going to pass through it anyway regardless. Could the cylinder "collect" air (warmer air maybe?) and then mix INSIDE the cylinder. It would make sense, as the cone moving left would block the opening to the cylinder. This would allow pure oxygen to come through the gap it created...

Sorry, pics are a bit blurry...


http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/instrumetphotos076.jpg


http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/instrumetphotos077.jpg


http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/instrumetphotos078.jpg


hmmmm...

I'll get back to you on the other valves, as i am off to work!

Thanks!

Mike

http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/myme.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 09:18 AM
were u able to get that blasted thing open?!?!?!

http://avg-pbs.freewebspace.com/pbssig1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 04:09 PM
Hey PBS,

Nope...i don't want to force it any more than i have to. It looks as though it wasn't meant to be opened much, as the seams are covered in paint. Don't want to wreck it.

I've sent a mail nto the restoration dept. of Black 6 in Duxford, England, and i have contacted the original manufacture. Hopefully someone will be able to help.

I'll let you know all the fancy details on monday, which hopefully will be all question answered. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/myme.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 10:05 PM
great!! i cant wait to see how close we were to being right. or how far off we were /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://avg-pbs.freewebspace.com/pbssig1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 05:11 PM
Hey PBS,

I think we were 90% in how it works. I spoke to the guys in Duxford, but they were unable to even GET an original Oxy Reg.

hmmm...

They then forwarded me to another guy...i'll see what happens.

http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/myme.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 07:33 AM
Hey PBS...

Okay, here's the deal...

NO ONE knows how it "actually" works. I spoke to the Museum in Duxford, as well as an owner of a 109, who curently flies it. Unfortunatly, you can't use these things anymore (current flying standards/rules), so no one really bothered repairing one for use. They usually just use it for display only.

However, i am meeting with a former Luftwaffe ace tomorrow. Hopefully he'll have some insite. I should proably also contact that guy in the US who owns all those Hispano 109's...i'll have to look him up, but if that leaves it a blank, then i'll have to "give-up" at that point.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Mike

http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/myme.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 03:23 PM
Okay...

I've spoken to a few pilots who own and fly the 109, and unfortunatly, none of them use the thing. I thing PBS and myslef are the only 2 people who have the BEST call on the thing, as even the museums in England have no clue.

I've given up the search for now, but will post more here if anything else comes up.

Thanks PBS!


Mike

http://ca.geocities.com/mikiebactor/myme.jpg