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XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 07:06 PM
This is a long lasting error in FB. I know that the plane is a minor one, but FB gives an unrealistic representation of it's performance and it still is a popular choice online, though it won't be if modelled correctly.

First of all the FM seems copied from that of I-153. But there are no similarities between the two: first of all I-153 has two times better powerload, which gives it the good flight characteristic in the vertical. P.11 is teribly underpower 500HP for 1800Kg means very little, it should have serious trouble when trying to lift its nose up.

Also wing loading is less good than on I-153.

It's performance should be around 17 sec per 360 deg sustained turn and 10m/s initial climb. It turned well, but it should not outturn the Zero. Climb, acceleration, dive, zoom climb were very very poor.

Also please fix the P.11 DM. Now it takes several Mk108 hit with no damage at all. And please take another look at the engine damage at small caliber MG rounds for early war plane. Now all planes except Emil take an incredible amount of hits with zero effects.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

Message Edited on 11/04/0301:10PM by Huckebein_FW

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 07:06 PM
This is a long lasting error in FB. I know that the plane is a minor one, but FB gives an unrealistic representation of it's performance and it still is a popular choice online, though it won't be if modelled correctly.

First of all the FM seems copied from that of I-153. But there are no similarities between the two: first of all I-153 has two times better powerload, which gives it the good flight characteristic in the vertical. P.11 is teribly underpower 500HP for 1800Kg means very little, it should have serious trouble when trying to lift its nose up.

Also wing loading is less good than on I-153.

It's performance should be around 17 sec per 360 deg sustained turn and 10m/s initial climb. It turned well, but it should not outturn the Zero. Climb, acceleration, dive, zoom climb were very very poor.

Also please fix the P.11 DM. Now it takes several Mk108 hit with no damage at all. And please take another look at the engine damage at small caliber MG rounds for early war plane. Now all planes except Emil take an incredible amount of hits with zero effects.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

Message Edited on 11/04/0301:10PM by Huckebein_FW

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 07:13 PM
i know the machine guns are uber weeny atm /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
p11 was quiet good btw irl

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 07:16 PM
p1ngu666 wrote:
- p11 was quiet good btw irl

No, it wasn't. Let's not try to make myths out of airplanes. I'm romanian and Romania was the largest P.11 operator beside Poland. It was an outdated machine, undepowered and slow. It was quickly relegated to minor duties after the first months of war.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 07:21 PM
dont forget the pitch control of the wooden propeller /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

and were there realy a Radiator control ?

http://www.jagdgeschwader53.flugzeugwerk.net/diverses/franky.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 08:34 PM
Where are the loadouts??? In the object viewer it tells me there were disposable 2x VYa 23mm or 2 ShKAS 7,62s. We only have the third one which is 2 12,5kg bombs /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 08:44 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:

- First of all the FM seems copied from that of I-153.
- But there are no similarities between the two: first
- of all I-153 has two times better powerload, which
- gives it the good flight characteristic in the
- vertical. P.11 is teribly underpower 500HP for
- 1800Kg means very little, it should have serious
- trouble when trying to lift its nose up.
-
- Also wing loading is less good than on I-153.
-
- It's performance should be around 17 sec per 360 deg
- sustained turn and 10m/s initial climb. It turned
- well, but it should not outturn the Zero. Climb,
- acceleration, dive, zoom climb were very very poor.


Heh - any data source Huckelbein?
I IMHO you missed nearly all mentioned data (except hit resitance) which makes me courious - what is this pos for?

After A.Glass P.11 c Monography:

-engine Skoda Merkury V s2 600HP (not500HP)
-mass 1147 kg (not 1800kg)
-initial climb (0m) 12.4 m/s (not 10m/s)
-initial climb (2000m) 14.5 m/s

I will compare it with I-153 data when later at home. Also diving speed now is far too low. In several pilots interviews they recalled to be able to dive in 650-700 km p h.

As for damage resistance I agree it should be toned down.

cheers

gatling

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 08:45 PM
I've always read the P.11 was much better than most people believe or give it credit for,and indeed the TRUE myth was the belief that she was no good. But I digress. I'm not up for a flame fest. One thing I WOULD like to see addressed is the DM. Currently,it seems like she's made out of Kevlar! The only way I can get one to go down is a direct engine hit or a pilot kill. She's all but impervious to flak or cannon hits. This all started when 1.1b was released,I believe. In 1.0 the DM was as it should be.

<center>47|FC <img src="http://rangerring.com/wwii/p-47.jpg"<

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 09:07 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
I'm romanian and Romania was the largest
- P.11 operator beside Poland.

It is the funniest evidence I heard here http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 10:13 PM
He he, another 109E rider flying Blitzkrieg missions against that desperating 'iron-fly'... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

You're right, Huckebein. Nice plane to fly, but too good to be good. Even if I love it! Great pilots the Polish, doing so much with that noble but obsolescent aircraft.

- Dux Corvan -



http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612322300

</span></blockquote></font></td></tr>

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 11:39 PM
gatling_PL wrote:
- Huckebein_FW wrote:
-
-- First of all the FM seems copied from that of I-153.
-- But there are no similarities between the two: first
-- of all I-153 has two times better powerload, which
-- gives it the good flight characteristic in the
-- vertical. P.11 is teribly underpower 500HP for
-- 1800Kg means very little, it should have serious
-- trouble when trying to lift its nose up.
--
-- Also wing loading is less good than on I-153.
--
-- It's performance should be around 17 sec per 360 deg
-- sustained turn and 10m/s initial climb. It turned
-- well, but it should not outturn the Zero. Climb,
-- acceleration, dive, zoom climb were very very poor.
-
-
- Heh - any data source Huckelbein?
- I IMHO you missed nearly all mentioned data (except
- hit resitance) which makes me courious - what is
- this pos for?

I took the data from object viewer, which is by no means an accurate source. So let's correct my mistakes:



- After A.Glass P.11 c Monography:
-
--engine Skoda Merkury V s2 600HP (not500HP)
Ok


--mass 1147 kg (not 1800kg)
This one is not correct, 1630kg loaded, 1800kg with bombs

--initial climb (0m) 12.4 m/s (not 10m/s)
--initial climb (2000m) 14.5 m/s
Rate of climb was calculated by me, but for 560HP.
12m/s seems right though.
Still, it should not turn better than Zero. 16 sec per 360 deg sustained turn was maximum performance for all ww2 monoplane fighters (at loaded weight). There were some early war fighters that could reach this limit, but they could not break it.



- I will compare it with I-153 data when later at
- home. Also diving speed now is far too low. In
- several pilots interviews they recalled to be able
- to dive in 650-700 km p h.

I don't have data on dive, but it will be interesting if someone will post the data from flight manual; it should be there. 650 km/h is way high, it was the dive limit for La7.


- As for damage resistance I agree it should be toned
- down.




<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2003, 11:42 PM
DuxCorvan wrote:
- He he, another 109E rider flying Blitzkrieg missions
- against that desperating 'iron-fly'...

He he, no I just took Zero for spin to relax with its turn rate. I put it against P.11, it followed my every move/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Otherways I don't remeber having troubles with those in my Emil. I'll try that now. I don't attack them if I don't have sufficient speed for a zoom climb.

- You're right, Huckebein. Nice plane to fly, but too
- good to be good. Even if I love it! Great pilots the
- Polish, doing so much with that noble but
- obsolescent aircraft.



<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 12:32 AM
Huck::
-- He he, no I just took Zero for spin to relax with its
-- turn rate. I put it against P.11, it followed my every move

Maybe old Ki~27 could follow every Zero turn too, and I heard we have A6M5 Zero over the Patch not A6M2.

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 09:26 PM
Ha,ha,ha /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif - I just LOVE when people start a debate in a subject they know so little... IGNORANCE RULEZ!
I will keep myself from addressing particular posts in order not to start flame war - I could easily laugh up some comments made here, but I'll present facts instead and leave you to draw conclusions yourselves.


What are your sources? If it's the Object Viewer or descriptions from IL2 official site then GOOD LUCK TO YOU! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
They write about "four guns in the fuselage", add some fictious loadouts etc. - c'mon, it's sci-fi! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


I guess I can correct you guys on that matter, coz I feel well prepared for this:
I have original plane manual from 1936, direct contact with Museum in Krakow that has last remaining P.11c in the world and various publications on P.11. (List at the bottom of this post.)

And I did something about it - this manual is now in Oleg's hands and he promised to add some fixes in the upcoming add-ons. My high-resolution skin is now the default one from v1.2 onwards. (The bug list is at the end of this post.)

***

The P.11 was pretty durable. It's max allowed dive speed was 696km/h, the critical load factor was = 16, the wings were covered with corrugated sheets of metal which only strenghtened the sturdy construction. Huckebein_FW - since you're Romanian, you should know that one of your reckless pilots smashed his P.11 on the ground in front of Polish ambasador - it was before the show sheduled on 20th July 1934, the Romanian aviation holiday. But he didn't die in this accident! - the plane bumped from the ground /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif with only minimal damage to landing gear and propeller. Talking about durability test, eh?

The climb rate was indeed 12.4m at 0m, and it increased to 14.5m @ 2000m
Wing load: 92 kg/m2
Stalling speed: 110 km/h

Surely the P.11 WAS outdated by modern fighters in 1940s, but when it was introduced in 1934 (let the date "1939" from the game not mislead you) it was decent a/c.


-----------------------------------------------------
Bug list (as of IL-2:FB 1.11) and proposed changes:
-----------------------------------------------------

GENERAL:

--- Fix: The production date for P.11c should be: 1934 (the serial production started November 1934, most were manufactured in 1935) - as it is shown on the official IL-2:FB website.
--- Add: Ability to drop main fuel tank: the main fuel tank could be dropped in emergency (e.g.: engine or tank on fire) - it could use the "jettison droptanks" key. [photos and drawings in the manual]
--- Fix: Fire extinguisher not working. [details of extinguishers in the manual]


ARMAMENT:

--- The plane used wz.33 machine guns: 7.92mm Mauser ammunition (produced in Poland), fire rate 1100 rounds/minute, Ammunition: 500 rounds/gun (in the fuselage), 600 rounds/gun (in the wings), fuselage guns were synchronised [manual]
--- Add: "2 machine guns in fulselage only" to loadouts: Only few P.11c were armed with 4 machine guns (as shown in manual). Most had the wing mounted MGs removed because they decreased the plane performance. P.11c with only 2 fuselage mounted MGs were faster & more agile. [photos and drawings in the manual]
--- Add: "4 PuW 12.5kg bombs" to loadouts: Most planes (those which didn't have radios) had 4 bomblets on Swiatecki SW bomb racks [photos and drawings in the manual]
* Maybe you could make two variants:
#1. with radio antenna, 4 wz.33 machine guns and (optional loadout) 2 PuW 12.5 bombs
#2. no radio antenna, 2 wz.33 machine guns and (optional loadout) 4 PuW 12.5 bombs, slightly faster and more agile (that's why the guns were removed!)


FLIGHT MODEL and DAMAGE MODEL:

--- Fix: Adjust the FM according to original manual (note: this is not the manufacturer's "advertisement" manual - it's military one with real performance data collected during state trials by Aviation Technical Institute (ITL) [manual, performance charts]
--- Fix: Enhance the engine DM using the provided documentation [engine plans, photos, manual]
--- Fix: Enhance the aircraft DM (e.g. landing gear sturdiness) using the provided documentation [cut-away drawing, description of the construction and photos in the manual]
--- Fix: Variable pitch propeller: The P.11c was fitted with fixed pitch Szomanski propeller (diameter = 3,0 m) so the "change propeller pitch" keys shouldn't work (and all that follows). [manual]
--- Fix: Damage Model - the plane tears apart or explodes at the speed of 520-600 km/h.
The real aircraft had a max allowed speed = 696 km/h, the critical load factor was = 16
[recorded tracks to prove the bug, performance data in the manual]
*During September 1939 Polish pilots used to catch German planes by diving at high speeds (600-650km/h)


SKIN and MARKINGS:

--- Fix: Bug in texture mapping: any new 1024x1024 skin (FB feature) will be rescaled to 512x512 in the game. [screenshot to prove the bug] This also happens to others planes (like I-16).
Also the ailerons when looked from a side have missing/corrupted texture. [screenshots to prove the bug]
--- Add: I would like to make new 1024x1024 skin for P.11c (default skin and "void" skin) [under development] DONE! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
--- Fix: Polish "checkboards" (national markings) are of wrong size. [pictures showing correct sizes and placement, sizes in text file]
--- Add: numbers and letters on the wing underside (letters show where given unit was stationed, numbers were a 2 or 3 digit radio codes) [list of squadrons in the text file]
--- Add: Matte skin portions: The portions of the wings and stabilizers were clad with corrugated sheets of metal which didn't reflect much light. Instead of drawing lines on texture (they would be too big in this scale) those portions of skin could be made matte or semi-matte. [drawings show the areas clad with corrugated sheets of metal]


EXTERNAL:

--- Fix: Missing shells falling out from wing mounted machine guns [screenshot to prove the bug, photo of the shell ejectors, manual]
--- Fix: Missing mirror [photos, manual]


COCKPIT:

--- Fix: Missing mirror: P.11c had mirror installed [photos, manual]
--- Fix: Wrong throttle lever animation: The trottle should work the opposite way it is now (different than in British/American/German planes): pushing it backward = MORE POWER, pushing it forwards = LESS POWER. Poles used this French system on their designs (it also caused few accidents - some pilots were used to the other system).

------------------------------------------------------
Bibliography

"Opis techniczny platowca P.Z.L. typ P.11c", Ministerstwo Spraw Wojskowych - Departament Aeronautyki, Warszawa, 1936
(plane manual)

A.Glass,T.Kopanski,T.Makowski: "Monografie Lotnicze" #36: "PZL P.11", AJ-PRESS, 1997

B.Belcarz,A.Juszczak,T.Makowski,R.Peczkowski: "Modelmania" #2: "PZL P.11c", AJ-PRESS, 1998

"AERO-Technika Lotnicza" 10/1992: A.Glass "PZL P.11", Oficyna Wydawnicza SimPress, 1992

A.Morgala: "Samoloty wojskowe w Polsce 1924-1939", Bellona, 2003

K.Cieslak,W.Gawrych,A.Glass: "Samoloty mysliwskie wrzesnia 1939", NOT-SIGMA, Warszawa 1987

Special thanks to Jan Hoffmann, Kierownik Dzialu Dydaktyczno-Oswiatowego i Ekspozycji, Muzeum Lotnictwa Polskiego (Director of the Exposition in Polish Aviation Museum), Krakow, Poland



R. "Rola" Skibicki

-----------------------------------
Polish Aviation Museum supports us!
http://www.muz-lotnictwa.krakow.pl

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 09:34 PM
Oh, and a cool quote from the Polish military attaché in Romania (the guy mentioned above who witnessed the accident of the Romanian pilot), sent on 18th July 1934:


"[...] You can play football with this plane!"


I will not quote here his personal assessment of the Romanian pilots' skill /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


Besides, if the P.11 was so horrible then why did Romania "recycled" part of this plane to create IAR-80/81 ??


R. "Rola" Skibicki

-----------------------------------
Polish Aviation Museum supports us!
http://www.muz-lotnictwa.krakow.pl

Message Edited on 11/08/0310:25PM by Skibicki

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 09:46 PM
Dobry post Rola http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

pozdro

gatling

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 10:13 PM
Nafyn less, nafyn more - as always Rola proved his rights - P11's rights http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ZG77_Nagual
11-08-2003, 10:18 PM
That was cool! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/whiner.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 10:33 PM
Rola, so you are saying that p11c's ability to withstand mk108 multiple hits are perfectly normal and you even plan to increase its sturdiness?

Then Polish flew perfectly good airplane and I have no idea why it was called outdated (speed is low but everything else compensates that).

---------------------------------------


---------------------------------------

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 12:03 AM
yay1 wrote:
- Rola, so you are saying that p11c's ability to
- withstand mk108 multiple hits are perfectly normal
- and you even plan to increase its sturdiness?
- Then Polish flew perfectly good airplane and I have
- no idea why it was called outdated (speed is low but
- everything else compensates that).

Where did you read that? I guess you just skimmed through my long post because you got bored reading it.
I'VE NEVER SAID THAT.

***

I did said that P.11c WAS OUTDATED, even in 1939, not to mention 1940s (where FB action takes place). It didn't had armor, self-sealing fuel tanks, heck - nor even closed cabin! It WAS GOOD, but IN MID-30s. Compare it to planes available in the years 1932-36 and you'll understand what I mean. The point is that Polish Air Force didn't catch up the rapidly advancing aviation technology - Polish designers had some innovative solutions, but there was always financial issue. Some a/c like P.37 were introduced too late to play a decisive role in the war - this is because we spent, say, 10 times less money on arms race than Nazi Germany did. This way the P.24, which was P.11's superior successor was ONLY an EXPORT plane. It was hailed "the best single-engine monoplane fighter of the year 1934" by Western European press. Do the names like Le Bourguet or Cleveland sound familiar to you?

My outstanding request to Oleg was to make P.11's performance as close to historical as it gets, EVEN IF IT MEANS PORKING SOME STATISTICS. I gave him all the data he could ever need - if he wants more he can visit Krakow while on his holidays /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif (Oleg, you can drop in whenever you want!) The fixes will be either in 1.2 final or in January add-on.

I never said "make it uber" or that it could withstand hail of 30mm rounds. I just couldn't help but to correct those blatant mistakes posted by people above, who didn't know a thing about the plane history, yet they tried to "correct" some issues.


This thread is getting better and better /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



R. "Rola" Skibicki

-----------------------------------
Polish Aviation Museum supports us!
http://www.muz-lotnictwa.krakow.pl

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 12:19 AM
Skibicki wrote:
- Where did you read that? I guess you just skimmed
- through my long post because you got bored reading
- it.
- I'VE NEVER SAID THAT.

You never said that the current defence is abnormal and never said that you are going to address this issue, thats why I asked you that question.

---------------------------------------


---------------------------------------

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 12:48 AM
Oh, really??

Skibicki wrote in his bug report above:
--- Fix: Enhance the engine DM using the provided
-documentation [engine plans, photos, manual]
--- Fix: Enhance the aircraft DM (e.g. landing gear
-sturdiness) using the provided documentation [cut-away
-drawing, description of the construction and photos in the
-manual]


"enhance" means: make it more accurate (thus better for us, hardcore flightsimmers), it DOESN'T MEAN "make the a/c stronger"


The MK108 cannon made big holes in B-17s, it also should make holes in P.11, agreed. This is what I mean by 'enhancing' DM - making it as it should be.


And please, guys: don't say things like "if La-7 couldn't do it - no plane could" because it's just plain silly /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif







R. "Rola" Skibicki

-----------------------------------
Polish Aviation Museum supports us!
http://www.muz-lotnictwa.krakow.pl

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 02:03 AM
p40 p11 early hurricanes need the most fm dm and ballistics sttention

hurricane and p40 seem to be the only planes that use 50 lbs of stick pressure on all control surfaces. And others have 20 on thier elevator and thats it, and i hope oleg pays attention to this

with the p11c you need to get a pk to down another p11, its very rare but you can get one smoking from an undercarriage nose shot.

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XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 04:35 AM
well the machine guns are uber weeny /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
i couldnt even light up a 262 (ai tho)


whineingu /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 05:19 AM
Rola: never seen so well documented and exposed a post, and so arrogant a poster...
I'm teasing you... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I wish all the planes in Forgotten Battles had such "supervisor" to correct their issues (where there's any). I only doubt Oleg could correct so much stuff each time it's required. If he does in this case, well I'd be impressed even further.

Aero

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 05:23 AM
p1ngu666 wrote:
- well the machine guns are uber weeny
- i couldnt even light up a 262 (ai tho)
-
-

I actually did exactly this online once! Anything will set a 262 engine on fire!

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 06:01 AM
He took park in making p11c for this game, and I think he is from poland, there are no reasons to be suprised about his backing up of this plane or having so much data about it. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

---------------------------------------

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 01:18 PM
Skibicki,

Excellent post on the P11 IMHO. Just checked your link to the museum, looks like I've just found my new destination for next years summer vacation! (Deutsches museum planned in May/June already)

That's quite a list of planes, besided the more *recent* ones also some very interesting (pre)WW-1 and interwar year planes and engines as well! A Geest M√¬∂we and Etrich Taube? Cool! Too bad not on display, but seems there is more than enough to make the trip worthwile.

If you happen to spot an old, rusty, dark green 1968 Hanomag camper-van near Krakow that'll be me...
Just gotta start learning Polish now http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



Jeroen

================

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/JeroentjeNt/r90S.jpg

--== The Fw-190s 801 engine ain't the only BMW that flies!==--