PDA

View Full Version : Can I mix diffent brand joystick and rudder pedals?



pugo3
11-18-2011, 03:30 PM
I presently have CH Products Combat FlightStick and Rudder pedals, and am thinking on trying a new joystick as I've experienced sticking with the trigger button that I have not been able to resolve sending it back several times. I also believe that it may be showing its age; I had issues with the elevator forces diminishing signifigantly at one time, and though it was serviced have suspected this elevator function may still be diminished as I have lost elevator effectiveness in 2+ Combat flight simms. Can I mix a non-CHP brand joystick with the CH pedals? Also, recommendations as to a good joystick and a brief 'look-out-for' cautions or experiences you have had would be appreciated.

flakzero1959
11-18-2011, 05:47 PM
I have a mix of Microsoft FFB2 joystick, CH pro throttle, and Saitek rudder pedals, and don't have any problems. I don't use the software for the throttle or pedals though. I do all my programming in the game

T_O_A_D
11-18-2011, 06:34 PM
Yes, I use a Microsoft Force feedback, CH pedals, and a X-45 combination.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/T_O_A_D/Joystick%20stuff/DSC00505.jpg

Several others do the same and similar.

Tully__
11-19-2011, 10:16 PM
Up to four USB controllers can be used. It doesn't matter what brand, but you need to be aware that some of the really complex controllers show up as two separate controllers in Windows and the game will count them as two.

On the other hand, the CH software will allow you to combine some of the CH products controllers in to one virtual controller in Windows, potentially adding available controller slots.

Luno13
11-20-2011, 06:54 AM
I thought CH made it impossible to use other another company's controls with their hardware. Apparently not. hm...

x6BL_Brando
11-20-2011, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by Luno13:
I thought CH made it impossible to use other another company's controls with their hardware. Apparently not. hm...

No, that's not the case at all - in fact almost the opposite. While it's true that the CH Control Manager isn't able to accept input from 'foreign' hardware, it in no way interferes with other input to the PC. As Tully says, it's actually helpful because of its ability to create a virtual, single controller out of any CH hardware that's attached. That's very useful when a game is restricted to just a few usb inputs, like IL-2 is. Add to that the possibility of using simple scripts to run quite complex functions from a single button push - I think CH is an excellent choice.

pugo3 _ I wonder if you are using the trim-wheels located at the base of the stick, or whether perhaps they have been moved off-centre by accident? This is a frequent cause of an apparent loss of effectiveness on the Y-axis. It's best to bring these 'trim-wheels' to the centre position (around 128 as seen in the Calibration screen) and just leave them there.

Bearcat99
11-20-2011, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by T_O_A_D:
Yes, I use a Microsoft Force feedback, CH pedals, and a X-45 combination.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/T_O_A_D/Joystick%20stuff/DSC00505.jpg

Several others do the same and similar.

I wish I still had my X-45.. I like the X-52 and have gotten used to it.. but that X-45 was great.. The X-52 is much easier to mod though..

http://file.walagata.com/w/bearcat/100_0750.JPG

pugo3
11-21-2011, 12:02 PM
pugo3 _ I wonder if you are using the trim-wheels located at the base of the stick, or whether perhaps they have been moved off-centre by accident? This is a frequent cause of an apparent loss of effectiveness on the Y-axis. It's best to bring these 'trim-wheels' to the centre position (around 128 as seen in the Calibration screen) and just leave them there.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for your reply. The trim wheels are centered, unfortunately I presently must use the elevator trim wheel as a 6th control, literally flying with almost continual inputs to wring out more response, then center when flying level. I posted re this problem before on the forum, trying to find out if others had experienced this diminished control repsonse going from WinXP to VISTA>Win7. I also noted a loss of aircraft speed, or the perception: bottom line is the aircraft do not fly nearly as well, particularly noted with the Me 109. No one posted of any such phenomena, so here I am. I did experience a distinct elevator loss at one point when my CH Combat Flightstick had other issues, ie non-functioning buttons, sticking hat stick funcition, that was fixed during servicing. I'm just am out of solutions and perhaps it's a OS issue or my individual set up combo, but I thought to try a new stick, and Force feedback may be the way to go to increase realism in either case.

Tully__
11-21-2011, 03:36 PM
Regards trying a new stick, if you're happy with the CH replace it.
If you really want to try, best option is to borrow before you buy if you can. Joystick preference is highly personal and subjective so recommendations aren't worth a damn unless the recommender has exactly the same preferences as you.

That having been said, high end Thrustmaster or Saitek would be your best options if you decide to stray from CH.
The Thrustmaster Cougar I don't recommend unless you want to spend your house mortgage on 3rd party modifications and the Flight Stick/Hotas X options are entry level and in my experience not likely to last very long with lots of use. The T.16000M or the HOTAS Warthog are the best value in the Thrustmaster stable.
For Saitek, the Aviator or the X52 / X52 Pro are the picks of the bunch. The X65 is nominally better, but it uses force sensors. The X65 stick doesn't move when you push it, it tells the game how hard you're pushing. All reports I've seen indicate this takes a LOT of getting used to.

x6BL_Brando
11-21-2011, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by pugo3:
pugo3 _ I wonder if you are using the trim-wheels located at the base of the stick, or whether perhaps they have been moved off-centre by accident? This is a frequent cause of an apparent loss of effectiveness on the Y-axis. It's best to bring these 'trim-wheels' to the centre position (around 128 as seen in the Calibration screen) and just leave them there.


Thank you for your reply. The trim wheels are centered, unfortunately I presently must use the elevator trim wheel as a 6th control, literally flying with almost continual inputs to wring out more response, then center when flying level. I posted re this problem before on the forum, trying to find out if others had experienced this diminished control repsonse going from WinXP to VISTA>Win7. I also noted a loss of aircraft speed, or the perception: bottom line is the aircraft do not fly nearly as well, particularly noted with the Me 109. No one posted of any such phenomena, so here I am. I did experience a distinct elevator loss at one point when my CH Combat Flightstick had other issues, ie non-functioning buttons, sticking hat stick funcition, that was fixed during servicing. I'm just am out of solutions and perhaps it's a OS issue or my individual set up combo, but I thought to try a new stick, and Force feedback may be the way to go to increase realism in either case.

I'd have to say that using the "trim wheel" to add input isn't a correct usage. I'm presuming that you have a USB stick?

If so, then remember that the only correct place to calibrate the stick (and the pedals) is in the CH software manager, NOT in the Windows Game Controller applet. When you carry out the calibration in the CHCM you will need to have centred the trim wheel before setting about calibrating and then, once you have completed the process, never move the wheel from the centre again(!) You cannot "wring out more response" using this wheel as it is only a device for moving the stick axis on its already existing arc of movement. I have worked on the internals of many CH sticks and I promise you this is the truth. The trim wheel just moves the centre of the stick in relation to the potentiometer; it cannot increase the result at the ends of travel. The input runs from 0 to 256 with 128 as the centre, plus or minus a couple of degrees. There is no input beyond 256, like 259 or something; nor is there a minus value at the other end, like - 2 or anything.

However, there is a way how you can hinder the arc of travel, which is by setting the "trim-wheel" forward, that is like "trimming" the nose down, and then leaving it there when you pull back to climb. Because the centre position has been moved you will be unable to get the full input you need. Again, what you really need is to leave this crude mechanical "trim" centred and calibrated, and learn to use the trim input that is built into the game software. You might want to install IL-2_JoyControl (http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=1021) so that you can see what is happening with your axes and set some relaxed curves to your input.

I've been using the same Fighterstick since IL-2 came out. I transferred to Win 7 from XP when 7 came out - never had a bit of trouble with it. It may be that you need to download a new set of CH software. V4.52 is the latest, specially set for the win7 OS.

Remember. The wheel(s) aren't for trimming - the game software is.

pugo3
11-23-2011, 05:17 PM
...what you really need is to leave this crude mechanical "trim" centred and calibrated, and learn to use the trim input that is built into the game software. You might want to install IL-2_JoyControl (http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=1021) so that you can see what is happening with your axes and set some relaxed curves to your input.

I've been using the same Fighterstick since IL-2 came out. I transferred to Win 7 from XP when 7 came out - never had a bit of trouble with it. It may be that you need to download a new set of CH software. V4.52 is the latest, specially set for the win7 OS.

Remember. The wheel(s) aren't for trimming - the game software is.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for your very helpful information, this last bit about "using the game trim..." might be revelation to my problem - I never assigned any keys to the trim funcition, I thought one used the mechanical trim wheel on the joystick to trim. I have been using the 4.51 CHCM to calibrate, but I never bothered with assigning trim functions to keys. I will try to now assign all trim to keys in the given game and see if this solves the problem. The loss of elevator function was such that whereas before, with certain aircraft I had to be exremely careful not to pull through a turn to quickly, I now cannot induce a stall by over pulling a turn no matter how tight I pull. If I understand what you said correctly, perhaps the default trim is 'uncentered', needing to be corrected by the game software key assignment. Won't be able to fly for a few days, but will report back as to whether or not this was my root problem.

...now, as to why certain aircraft still appear to fly slower than when in XP, still searching for an explanation.

x6BL_Brando
11-24-2011, 05:04 AM
perhaps the default trim is 'uncentered', needing to be corrected by the game software key assignment.

Yes, that's it. Pitch (elevator) and yaw (rudder) are the two most commonly found on the IL-2 planes, although the Messerschmitt 109s have no yaw trim, only pitch. The story goes that 109 pilots had stronger left leg muscles from keeping a constant pressure on the left pedal!

So, not only is trimming modelled - it is also modelled differently from plane to plane. The direction of engine rotation will dictate which way the rudder is trimmed. One constant is pitch trimming - the default (in-game) position is usually good for taking off, but after that you'll find that the nose needs pitching down to attain level flight. You'll find that pitch and yaw are dependent on airspeed too, so you'll need to be adjusting trim frequently as you change attitude and throttle and so on. All of this will make a big difference to your game - flying and aiming too.

With regard to the CH stick, you need to open up the CHCM and go to the calibration page. Without moving the stick, move the wheels until the centres read around 128. There should be a detent that you can feel when the wheels reach their physical centre, and the mark on the visible part of the wheel will be right at the middle of the slot. If the reading in the test window is not around 126><130 then you will need to recalibrate. Once it's done you should never touch those wheels again! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Remember when you are assigning keys that you need 'up' 'down' and 'reset'(?) The latter will return your settings to default and can be useful. I hope this all helps. You may want to search the Community Help forum for trim settings - you will certainly find some more coherent explanations there http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Happy flying

B

Tully__
11-24-2011, 04:34 PM
When using the in-game trim controls, it also helps to be aware that the user input takes a long time to apply in the game. This is to simulate the time it takes a RL pilot to wind in trim changes.

You need to apply a small amount of trim, then wait several seconds to see if it's enough. If not, apply more trim. If you watch the control surfaces from external view you'll see what I mean. For example, if you hold down the "pitch down" trim control for about 4 seconds that's enough to get full trim, but it takes about 10 seconds for the control surface to fully respond.
To complicate it a little further, if you hold down 4 seconds of "pitch down" then 2 seconds of "pitch up" you should get about half of your full "pitch down" trim, however it will take about 15 seconds for the control surfaces to move all the way to full then back to half. This is why it's VERY important to apply small amounts of trim and wait for the result rather than applying large amounts of trim at first try.

pugo3
01-20-2012, 11:07 PM
thought I'd update my progress for others perhaps encountering a seemingly sluggish responding joystick input. I followed the advise to leave the trim wheel of my CH Products CombatStick centered, and assign trim keys. But more important, as far a solution to the actual problem, I have identified two contributing factors. First and most significant, I finally discovered that I have a flawed USB hub, that was the apparent source of my elevator control inputs errors.

I have had a problem for months with a diminished elevator response, and more recently began to experience momentary complete non-response to inputs: the game did not freeze, but my joystick elevator would totally cut out. Switching my joystick to another USB hub has thus far eliminated this problem. I had noticed the hub problem having attached an external drive to this same hub and noticing that minor jiggles of the device cord caused the disconnect/connect Windows audible, and in fact this seems the culprit.

As for the diminished elevator responsiveness in general, the above USB hub problem was likely the chief cause, existing as a 'ghost' problem undetected. Also, I have found the trim wheel slightly moved forward by brushing against it or handling it, and as stated above, this acts as a damper to inputs pulling up (or turns), so check this periodically or before a combat.

I want to hasten to state cleary the problem was NOT with my CH Products CombatStick, and I highly recommend the product to all.

thanks to all respondents,

p3