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View Full Version : Similar flightmodel for I-16 and Spit?



zugfuhrer
01-25-2006, 02:37 PM
I havnt flown this game so much the last year. But I see some similarities in the flightmodel of the spit and the I-16 in the early FB flightmodels, they dont loose E. Today the I-16 does, I think that is why no-one fly them.

Tonight I boomed down on a spit with my 190-A6 I was at 550 km/h and approached a spit from behind at 1,5K. I cloose the distance between us fast, my speed seemed to be 100 km/h faster than his.

The spit saw me and dive-turned, like the scissors.
I didnt make and big turn and burns to follow him and started to zoom up, and after some seconds (10-15) tracers where all around my A/C, and my wing fell off.
It was probably the same spit, I saw only one spit hanging in my chute.
My first thought was "This should be impossible"
First I got much more E than he.
Second The spit was a bad accelerator.
But in the virtual world everything is possible

I remembered that the I-16 did the same against 109 F2, they could turn without loosing speed, they seemed to achieve higher speed when they dove down and came up to the same altitude with higer speed for each time.

zugfuhrer
01-25-2006, 02:37 PM
I havnt flown this game so much the last year. But I see some similarities in the flightmodel of the spit and the I-16 in the early FB flightmodels, they dont loose E. Today the I-16 does, I think that is why no-one fly them.

Tonight I boomed down on a spit with my 190-A6 I was at 550 km/h and approached a spit from behind at 1,5K. I cloose the distance between us fast, my speed seemed to be 100 km/h faster than his.

The spit saw me and dive-turned, like the scissors.
I didnt make and big turn and burns to follow him and started to zoom up, and after some seconds (10-15) tracers where all around my A/C, and my wing fell off.
It was probably the same spit, I saw only one spit hanging in my chute.
My first thought was "This should be impossible"
First I got much more E than he.
Second The spit was a bad accelerator.
But in the virtual world everything is possible

I remembered that the I-16 did the same against 109 F2, they could turn without loosing speed, they seemed to achieve higher speed when they dove down and came up to the same altitude with higer speed for each time.

danjama
01-25-2006, 06:25 PM
http://byandlarge.net/scuttlebutt/images/200411/fishing.jpg

waffen-79
01-25-2006, 06:39 PM
tis no fishing everybody knows Spitfires, La-5(7) & Yak 3P('45) are UFOS

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

ImpStarDuece
01-25-2006, 07:05 PM
Acceleration comparison for Spitfire Vb 1941, Bf 109F2 and Fw 190A4

Conducted on Crimea map, 12 noon, auto PP, 100% fuel, 10 m altitude, radiators closed.

Speed - Spitfire - Bf 109 F2 - Fw 190 A4

300-350km/h - 8 sec - 8 sec - 7 sec
350-400km/h - 14 sec - 10 sec - 10 sec
400-450km/h - 34 sec - 15 sec - 12 sec
450-500km/h - max 466 km/h - 37 sec - 24 sec
500-550km/h - N/A - max 517 km/h - max 544 km/h

Will post more as I run the tests

JG53_Blwidow
01-25-2006, 07:16 PM
In oleg's spitfire nothing is impossible http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

HayateAce
01-25-2006, 09:00 PM
Another 109 takes to the air.

http://www.informantnews.com/pics2/realnazi.jpg

waffen-79
01-26-2006, 12:07 AM
pffft! that a Spitfire MkI captured during the escape of Dunkirk

Nubarus
01-26-2006, 12:47 AM
And they keep on whining and keep on ignoring the test table that was posted by ImpStarDuece.

Not surprised at all..... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

JuHa-
01-26-2006, 01:34 AM
Zugfuhrer,

I guess you flew in a straight line when extending? There's a lot of Spit drivers
who are good at shooting to 500-700m range, if you're not doing evasive manouvers.
Has happened to me often enough, so I'm a bit more cautious now.

Second thing is, record a track while flying - it helps in evaluating these situations.
I've noticed the second spit usually only when reviewing the track afterwards http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif,
partly because the spit that dove down is hard to spot.

Xiolablu3
01-26-2006, 02:20 AM
Again I hear someone saying how the spit was a bad accelerator?

I have never heard this before, can someone give some evidence for this?

Maybe the Spit mkV vs FW190A but any others??

p1ngu666
01-26-2006, 02:58 AM
dont u know xio, that irl spits flew like a b25 with 100% fuel, full bomb load and 1 engine?

think its time to roll out this
http://premium1.uploadit.org/pingu666//dream190.jpg

seems to me that half teh luftwaffles wanna tnb with spits, so perhaps they should fly g2, cr42 and japanease planes

Pinker15
01-26-2006, 03:39 AM
Spit was bad accelerator?. Can U tell my why ? because Spit IX has slight better power / weight ratio than Fw 190 A6. Other thing is that 100 kmph speed advantage is not enought to separate quick in climb. Spit still was have about 400 kmph, could put sight on U and pull the trigger. U did huge mistake by climbing after booming with 550 kmph at the beginnig of attack. U underestimate yours opponent and he get U in great shoot. Anyway U should kill him at first pass.

Brain32
01-26-2006, 03:57 AM
Spitfire is not an UFO. Especially MkV series(like riding on a snail), I mean really, you guys should stop flying 109 like it's a Spit, it's not a freakin' Spit!
If anything is funky with Spitfire, it's DM.
Try flying the Spifire then report back, and you who think 109/190 is uber also http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Kwiatos
01-26-2006, 05:24 AM
Dont worry Sptifre MK IX 25+ Boost is in the way http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

These knock LW on the knees http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SeaFireLIV
01-26-2006, 05:41 AM
Such a lot of rubbish, barely worth replying too. For a start, what version Spit was after you? - this can mean alot. The I16 was never really like the Spit and is a completely different kind of plane to fly today.

Also, even the Spitfire takes skill to fly properly. We`re not all just turn in circles fliers; some of the later Spits were almost like boomers and zoomers if used right. Come across a GOOD pilot who KNOWS his aircraft and he`ll know how to get that plane after you, if YOU don`t really know what you`re doing in your `unreachable` 109.

Poor fish attempt and another `I got owned so must now whine on the forum`.

p1ngu666
01-26-2006, 06:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
Acceleration comparison for Spitfire Vb 1941, Bf 109F2 and Fw 190A4

Conducted on Crimea map, 12 noon, auto PP, 100% fuel, 10 m altitude, radiators closed.

Speed - Spitfire - Bf 109 F2 - Fw 190 A4

300-350km/h - 8 sec - 8 sec - 7 sec
350-400km/h - 14 sec - 10 sec - 10 sec
400-450km/h - 34 sec - 15 sec - 12 sec
450-500km/h - max 466 km/h - 37 sec - 24 sec
500-550km/h - N/A - max 517 km/h - max 544 km/h

Will post more as I run the tests </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

imp, any chance of doing the a4 with combat flaps down?

Werg78
01-26-2006, 06:32 AM
cant say much about the spit because i rarely fly it but the I16 is still a good plane in its timeframe. the habit of many 109 drivers to turn with it makes for some nice kills http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

OD_79
01-26-2006, 06:52 AM
got to be honest I love flying the Spit on War Clouds. The amount of people that say you only got them because "you fly the Spit"! Like someone above said, it takes skill to fly them properly, Im not the best, don't claim to be, but I know my plane I know how to fight it out with a 190/109/Ta152, even had a 262 before. The fact is you get people flying blue who don't know how to, it's great when 190's try and out turn you then wonder why they go down, same for the 109...Ta152's are a bit more challenging...262's are a pain but you just have to time your attacks. The whole point of a sim is that you learn to fly your plane to the best of your abilities and learn how t counter the opposition, not moan that the opposition is too good so you're not going to fly against hem anymore...no one wins wars like that...look at the French!

OD.

p1ngu666
01-26-2006, 06:58 AM
sweet skin in your sig OD_79

JG53_Goetz
01-26-2006, 07:48 AM
Its pretty senseless to moan bout the Spitfire, cause if u sit in urself and try to shoot down 109s and 190s u will see how hard it really is...acceleration of spit is really powerless compared with 109s...

but nevertheless its pretty demotivating when u zoom up after attacking a Spit and moments later ur wing is off...first thought, of course, is, how did THIS work out, its impossible...believe me, I enjoyed this experience very often...

Shooting down other planes in most cases depends on the Pilots skillz, not on the plane...thats my opinion

Xiolablu3
01-26-2006, 10:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53_Goetz:


but nevertheless its pretty demotivating when u zoom up after attacking a Spit and moments later ur wing is off...first thought, of course, is, how did THIS work out,

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, if you are being B&Zed, there is a quick chance to get a shot off as he zooms back up, he can be in range for a second or 2 and if you feel its the only chance you have, then you may lift your nose and attempt a shot.

I htink you have been hit by one of these lucky shots as you zoom back up.

Unlucky, yes, but doable in ANY plane, not just a Spitfire.

zugfuhrer
01-26-2006, 02:11 PM
Thanks for the inspiration, I did comparing tests for Me-109G6 1943, FW-A6, Spit Vb and Spit IX 43, Crimea 50% fuel auto prop-pitch or 100%, radiators open. I started at 100-200 m alt. Started at 200km/h, pulled the throttle to 110% and tried to fly straight. The level was between 100-200m.
the times are set as the time it took to go from lover speed to higher.
I could have squeezed some more speed out of the A/C but it would have been out of interest.
Got tracks of it all

Spit Vb

200-300 km/h 13s
300-400 27 s
400-470 70 s
total 109s

Spit IX

200-300 15s
300-400 30s
400-480 70s
total 115s (Between 470-480 took a while)

Me 109 G6 (Nose Gun)

200-300 8s
300-400 23s
400-500 120s
total 151 s (Betwenn 470-500 took a while)

FW-A6

200-300 20s
300-400 26s
400-500 62s
total 108s

ImpStarDuece
01-26-2006, 05:04 PM
Acceleration tests, FW 190A6, Bf 109 G6, Spitfire IXc

Crimea, noon, 10 m alt (+/- 5 meters), 100% prop pitch, radiators closed (default auto for Spitfire), 100% fuel, cockpit off.

Speed - FW 190A6 - Bf 109 G6 - Spitfire IXc
300-350 - 7 seconds - 6 seconds - 6 seconds
350-400 - 9 seconds - 7 seconds - 8 seconds
400-450 - 9 seconds - 12 seconds - 12 seconds
450-500 - 16 seconds - 22 seconds - 20 seconds
500-550 - 39 seconds - N/A max 535 km/h - N/A max 539 km/h
550-600 - N/A max 575 km/h - N/A - N/A

Time to accelerate from 300 - 500 kph

Spitfire IXc: 46 seconds
Bf 109 G6: 47 seconds
FW 190 A6: 41 seconds

More results as I test them.

zugfuhrer
01-27-2006, 02:40 PM
ImpStarDuece do you got tracks of this? Are we testing the same game, or does the radiators cowling inflict that much?

You got 41 sec to accelerate from 300 to 500 km/h, It took 1 min 32 sec for my A6.
The topspeeed differs also.
Tell us the URL for getting these trackfiles.

Nubarus
01-27-2006, 02:48 PM
Yes, the cowl flaps severely hamper acceleration when left fully open.

zugfuhrer
01-28-2006, 02:20 AM
I did the test once again with radiator closed.
FW-A6

200-300 21 sec
300-400 24 sec
400-500 60 sec
overheat 3.16 minutes and 520 km/h

Me-109G

200-300 13 sec
300-400 18 sec
400-500 61 sec
overheat 2 minutes 50 sec and 520 km/h
No big hamper of acceleration.
Are we testing the same game?

FW190-D under same circumstances.
200-300 24s
300-400 18s
400-500 55s

ImpStarDuece
01-28-2006, 03:08 AM
Are you testing with cockpit off at sea level and a properly trimmed plane?

My standard test criteria are:

Crimea map
Cockpit off
Complex Engine management on
Noon
Clear weather
100% fuel
Automatic prop pitch/100% prop pitch
Radiators closed
100% mixture (if applicable)
Heading 180 over water


I usually run each test twice to minimise my chance of pilot and plotting error. I record each run and gauge the measurements off the tracks using 1/4 speed to minimise error.

zugfuhrer
01-28-2006, 03:26 AM
Crimea map

Multiplay session coop mission, airstart 200m 300 km/h

full diffuculty but speedbar on.
12.00
50% fuel
Automatic prop-pitch or 100% prop-pitch for spit.

Radiators closed in one test, and automatic in one test LW only.

No mixture tinker on spit FW and Me.
Started at 100 m above see, 200km/h initial speed.
Heading 000 at start.

The alt and vector was between 100 to 250 during the test and the vector was +- 30 dgr depending of the torque effect at low speeds.
No track-IR.

I tried to minimize the yaw by respond with rudders and it became more stabile the higher the speed get.

Can you pls give us the trackfiles. Give me your e-mail and I send you my trackfiles.

stathem
01-28-2006, 04:09 AM
Tests by Robban:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/griffnav/Gallery/LwVsUSAAF.JPG

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/griffnav/Gallery/LwVsUSAAF45sec.JPG

zugfuhrer
01-28-2006, 05:01 AM
A little hard to read the diagram. Is there program to look at?

zugfuhrer
01-28-2006, 07:32 AM
Tested some other things

Same circumstances as before.
Started at 500 km/h made a vertical climb measured the highest position and clocked the time it took

spit IX 1420 2830 gives 1420 (18 sec)
Fw A6 1140 2370 gives 1230 (19 sec)
G6 1250 2560 gives 1310 (24 sec)
D9 1050 2380 gives 1330 (22 sec)

Although the spit goes 100-200 m higher it is there much faster, it outaccelerates the others very much.

Drag measurements

Flew at aprox 1000 m at speed of 500
turned the engine to idle, stayed at the alt until 200km/h.

Spit IX 34 sec
A6 62 sec
D9 70 sec
G6 46 sec

The spits drag isnt configured to be low, if not the slipstream is a big drag-producer in LW a/c
I quoute two comparable tests Spit/FW190 A4 made by VVS and RAAF.

"The FW is better than the spit in all dimensions but the horizontal, where the spit easily comes inside the FW."