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View Full Version : Oleg, can you incorporate playable AA??



aukieboy
01-01-2006, 11:56 AM
I would like to walk across the IL2/PF airfield,
grab an AA mount and shoot the enemy down from the ground.
It would be a real cool addition when a small area (airfield only) could be used to get out of the aircraft and function as a very little 3D shooter...
In case we are out of fuel or out of ammo and we have to get back to the landingstrip
we could defend our airfield with AA too
(presumed you play realistic mode).
I have put this discussion forward before but it's still an interesting feature so...
Greetings, Auk

aukieboy
01-01-2006, 11:56 AM
I would like to walk across the IL2/PF airfield,
grab an AA mount and shoot the enemy down from the ground.
It would be a real cool addition when a small area (airfield only) could be used to get out of the aircraft and function as a very little 3D shooter...
In case we are out of fuel or out of ammo and we have to get back to the landingstrip
we could defend our airfield with AA too
(presumed you play realistic mode).
I have put this discussion forward before but it's still an interesting feature so...
Greetings, Auk

Jetbuff
01-01-2006, 03:30 PM
While that would be nice, (and perhaps might be considered for BOB) I am pretty sure we won't see it in the IL-2 series itself.

SeaFireLIV
01-01-2006, 05:00 PM
If you`re thinking of Battlefield 2 type AA and AAA, forget it. If you want realistic AAA which would be nice, it would take a lot of work and time off the dev team... and it`s really a WWII flight sim, not a AAA gunner sim.

VW-IceFire
01-01-2006, 05:59 PM
Try Battlefield 1942 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Realistic AAA control would be interesting but would take quite a bit of work to do. All of the various fire control settings, air burst options, radar, and all of that...

Feathered_IV
01-02-2006, 05:08 AM
For BoB, I don't much care about taking over the AA guns (how many pilots did that in RL?) but I would like to spawn on a deck chair outside the readiness hut and have to sprint to my Hurri http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

SeaFireLIV
01-02-2006, 05:28 AM
I`m with Feathered_IV here. he may be joking, but I see no reason why Oleg`s BOB couldn`t have the player-pilot spawn on the airfield and sprint to his aircraft with other animated pilots to your Spitfire or Hurricane.

Really. It wouldn`t be difficult.

1. Start on airfield in chair or on field. Use simple button to walk about. Look around the detail of the airfield.

2. Ringing bell! A call to fly! Press the sprint button and use direction keys to run to your aircraft (perhaps highlighted for new users so they know where their plane is).

3. Once you reach plane it automatically pops you into the cockpit (I doubt we`ll get the animation of getting into the cockpit, but it would be nice).

4. ready to fly.

I cannot see this as impossible to do. just a bit of First-person programming needed. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Aero_Shodanjo
01-02-2006, 07:10 AM
Waaay OT but somehow I keep mixed up between SeafireLIV, VW-Icefire and Feathered_IV... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Sorry guys, just letting you know, thats all... In my eyes your forum names are so similar somehow... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

csThor
01-02-2006, 08:21 AM
No, no and again no. It shouldn't be even thought of. Simply because such nonsense takes away precious development time and ressources from the core of what makes a good combat flight simulation. Such "crossovers" appear in games without too much realism - for a few very good reasons.

I'd prefer Maddox Games spends the time necessary for that in a good offline experience. This was sorely lacking in the Il-2 series http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

notamuppet
01-02-2006, 09:46 AM
I think thats its a cool idea and it would be good for advertising the game. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

notamuppet
01-02-2006, 12:39 PM
Just a thought : those who have got pedals could use them to simulate running http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

ElAurens
01-02-2006, 01:16 PM
Frankly I'd rather have a horse drawn German artillery piece as a static object than any of that animated pilots or AAA nonsense.

Focus gentlemen. It will be hard enough to process all the info of the new BoB FM without animated people and manable AAA guns.

If you want to man a AAA gun, spawn in a TB3 and hop in the forward gun position.

FritzGryphon
01-02-2006, 04:15 PM
It would at least be simple to impliment.

A simple AA gun would be the same as a bomber gunner position.

aukieboy
01-03-2006, 05:27 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I`m with Feathered_IV here. he may be joking, but I see no reason why Oleg`s BOB couldn`t have the player-pilot spawn on the airfield ...

We have a hugh variety of opinions about this i see. Well let's indeed not forget it is a FLIGHTSIM! But just a little pinch of walking around would be nice... indeed to walk/run to your aircraft or just to watch your mates land from the ground...
Maybe we should forget about the AA but to being able to get out of your plane and get some fresh air is still a great idea!!!
It's only a little fun addition which could be easily achieved...
But i must admitt: first the flightpart, then the rest.

KG26_Alpha
01-03-2006, 07:39 AM
Drive around the bloody maps is what I want especially London in BoB where I live lol, I wanna carve up Black Taxi cabs and Double decker buses hehehe.
Forget flying for a bit and have some fun its a limited theatre at the start of BoB so I wanna scramble properly drive from airfield to airfield etc, even if its off line it would be great to transfer from sattelite airfields around london, pick up a new kite after trashing your old one etc.

Sometime you have to get out the box and have a look around at these things.

F19_Ob
01-04-2006, 04:22 AM
Online I often use bombers like the Tb3 as AA when there is a furball over or close to my base.
I have damaged quite many planes this way but only shot down a few.(too small caliber)
One would need some 20mm cannons to do a better job.

He111 has a nosemounted cannon and Betty has one rearmounted, but they aretoo inflexible to use as AA on the ground.

FritzGryphon
01-04-2006, 06:14 PM
So what we really need is a flyable Me-323!

Bartolomeo_ita
01-05-2006, 12:58 AM
i wanna pilot a ship, can i'll do?

aukieboy
01-05-2006, 05:54 AM
The Dutch have some pretty good pilots to harbour floating vessels... just another kind of pilot though
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/353.gif

Feathered_IV
01-06-2006, 01:35 AM
.....And I want to bail out in first person perspective http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif.

masaker2005
01-06-2006, 05:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
.....And I want to bail out in first person perspective http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
100% agree with you.

Choctaw111
01-06-2006, 12:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
.....And I want to bail out in first person perspective http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!!! I would also like something else that was metioned ealier here. I would like to spawn on somewhere on the airfield, even inside a building, and then have to run to your AC and get in!!! I have posted this a long time ago and that would be so great!!!! Just imagine running to your AC with the other airmen running along side of you with the sirens blaring and eneny AC all over the place and you have to quick scramble to get up there and take them out!!!!!

WWSensei
01-06-2006, 12:40 PM
For all those that want to drive boats, man AAA guns or sprint to their aircraft what you want is WWIIOnline. They cater to that. Or Aces High does it too.

Foo.bar
01-06-2006, 12:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:
For all those that want to drive boats, man AAA guns or sprint to their aircraft what you want is WWIIOnline. They cater to that. Or Aces High does it too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

but i don't want to play a different game. i want IL-2/FB/PF with some little first-person-features.
like others have mentioned before...

Jetbuff
01-06-2006, 01:23 PM
A sim with FPS features? Isn't that like an oxymoron or something?

PRILLERS
01-06-2006, 10:19 PM
yes this is very nice idea. you should sell this ideas to oleg. is to cheap to get ideas for free. add ons like this do a simulator better then other , so good ideas costs a lot.

when pilots are not flying, they cann take a aaa. perfet!

csThor
01-07-2006, 12:03 AM
Sorry foo, but this "idea" makes my toenails curl. I don't want a shabby crossover between genres with tons of arcadish compromises and a lack of realism - I want a BoB to be a flight simulation that is truly the crown of the genre. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

avramis
01-07-2006, 04:09 AM
Oh, you want to jump from your copkit and run towards that 20'' AA, and give m hell eh? Maybe we could ask Oleg to ad jeeps to, so once you exit your aircraft, a beutiful 4x4 would wait for you sorry a**, to take you to the AA faster! Then we could propably have custom skins for our 4x4 jeeps,in huge online databases like http://www.il2jeepskins.com . Are you ppl out of your minds? You would like to have some fps features in a flight sim? Why? There are other games that fit your taste, like Battlefield 42, but THEY ARE NOT SIMULATIONS. I remember when Falcon was out, the company wanted to develop an Ah64 simulator, and a Tank simulator, that would work together online. But not in one game! 3 different games, with the ability to play online
together. THAT IS SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT form what you r asking. And by the way, firing from a bomber gunner position, and firing from an AA, has nothing simmilar, except the target, the airplane. Trust me, i served in AA artillery, and the use of a WWII AA is VERY COMPLICATED. You cannot use one without a crew of minimum 2-3 persons, with 4 persons average for all WWII AA guns. You would need special training and many many hours on the gun, to be able to just aim an aircraft...

Feathered_IV
01-07-2006, 05:46 AM
Just for the record, I am not interested in taking over ground weapons. I am however in favour of limited movement inside and around an aircraft.

Who wouldn't like to one day move around inside an aircraft the way the camera pans around inside this Betty?

1.2mb CG clip (http://battlesub.hp.infoseek.co.jp/images/G4M222/G4M01.wmv)

WWSensei
01-07-2006, 06:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Foo.bar:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:
For all those that want to drive boats, man AAA guns or sprint to their aircraft what you want is WWIIOnline. They cater to that. Or Aces High does it too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

but i don't want to play a different game. i want IL-2/FB/PF with some little first-person-features.
like others have mentioned before... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then you want to make IL2 something it isn't. Usually, the response is that those games graphics are bad or the FMs are off or they take too long to get to know...

Which is probably what would happen to IL2 if they strayed from the core product to implement side features for a 10 second "wow" moment. Especially when so much of their core still needs to be fixed. 1C doesn't have unlimited resources and choices have to be made.

You want to move around in the pit? Then I'd rather have them take the many hours it would take to implment 6DOF for TrackIR, or flesh out some of the bigger bombers for use like the B-17, Pe-8 or B-29 and/or add some additional ones.

I'd rather they update ALL the aircraft to the complex damage model system.

The reality is if they had been diverted to do the things like you speaking of then IL2 most likely would not have evolved into the sim we like today.

Choctaw111
01-07-2006, 06:48 AM
Just starting inside an aircraft is not realistic. Don't we want a sim that actually simulates what a pilot did during the war? There are these aspects that are missing. Having to walk to your AC to get into it is realistic. Just the same way that actual fighting and firing your guns is a very small part of a combat pilots experience so too is just flying the AC. There are more things a pilot had to do before he actually flew the AC. We are missing comprehensive briefings for starters and then you would make your way from the breifing room to your AC whether by walking there or hitching a ride. Why some people think this is unessesary confuses me. If Oleg could do this, or some third party and have Oleg check it out before incorporating it, I can imagine that it would be a very nice feature in the game. To say that a combat pilot only flew and shot at stuff is not right. As a former Infantry Squad leader in combat I can attest to the fact that if someone made a game for the theater that I was in (war on terrorism campaign) and only included the patrols and firefights I would be very dissapointed with it. There is so much more to serving in the military than just the exciting moments. I would want to have the player of the game truly experience what being in the military is like. It is not all fun and adrenaline pumping that is for sure. The way I see it is that anyone who does not want to incorporate these aspects into the sim and just want the flying and shooting are just a bunch of thrill seekers who are not at all interested in the other aspects of a fighter pilots' life during the war. Let us have a true fighter pilots complete experience. For those that have never been in the military you might not understand what I am talking about here but beleive me we could definately use some more features in a combat flight sim to get a better overall picture of what life was actually like for a fighter pilot or a military member in gereral.

csThor
01-07-2006, 08:13 AM
@ Choctaw

A decent briefing is elementary for a good flight sim (and the Il-2 line is sorely lacking here), but the rest - the "way from the briefing room to the ac", the "hitching a ride" - is simply out of question. A quick pre-rendered movie would be more than sufficient, but the actual walking/driving is simply out of place here. Maddox Games doesn't have unlimited ressources, they don't have endless amounts of time. They need to concentrate on the flight sim aspect (which includes a much better GUI than Il-2 had).

Chuck_Older
01-07-2006, 09:02 AM
I have to agree with the Naysayers.

To my mind, it is easy to seperate wheat from chaff in these instances. Where is the line drawn? OK, it isn't realistic to suddenyl "appear" in a cockpit. It also isn't realistic to have a "pilot" who wasn't trained. So let's do what the USAAC did: every player takes a test, once. The player is then informed if he can progress with cadet training, and during trining, he is evaluated as being suitable for either washout, or advanced training. Once at advanced, he is tested and evaluated again, and is selected as either a single engine fighter pilot, a multi-engine fighter pilot, a light, medium, or heavy bomber pilot, or an instructor. Those who washed out of pilot training might be re-selected by the sim as navigators, bombardiers, or any of the other bomber crew positions

And when your results are given, you play as that type of airman. Period.

Now THAT would be realistic. How many bombardiers had wanted to be buzz boys? All of them.

OK, that's one extreme. The other is what we are talking about: free-form play. Well, in my opinion, the free-form play is good on the surface: it WOULD be cool to do this stuff. However- you have to temper the "cool fator" with the reality of what will be in a PC game box. To do what you're talking about properly...is self-defeating. All the time effort and money put into walking about would drive the price up, for one thing. I know we all say "yeah I'd spend 100 bucks on the sim" but we all know that's a bunch of talk and that's it. Also, players would get bored with that after the third time they saw it- all that effort for nothing. I 100% gaurantee that if this feature was incorporated, there would be whines here: "WTF, I have to walk Down the stairs to my spitfire an this other guy blocked me and then I took a wrong turn and when I got out to the field the lorry had left and I had to run for like an hour to get to my plane which was so far behind my flight I couldn't find the enemy, you stoopid oleg"

You know that would happen http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

But at bottom, the real issue for me is this: the game is a combat flight sim. Extraneous activities do not interest me, in a flight sim- bail out and fight your way back to base? Puh-leeze http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Man AAA? Um, that's only in the movies, AAA crew man AAA guns. it would be great to interact fully with every object in the sim, including stray dogs and kids who catch candy bars tossed to them over the boundary fence, but my heart and head both tell me that this is a tempting compromise that must be avoided at all costs. Put the cart after the horse: get the combat flight sim to a *much* higher level of perfection, and then concern ourselves with walking around the base and sneaking through a hole in the fence to catch a USO show in town, after the mission. To top it off, the instant somebody does this sort of thing, the very next instant thry will make glaring mistakes. Anybody every play the game "mafia"? Best single player game made in my opinion. HUGE errors in the game regarding historical accuracy: filtered cigarettes and bars prominently displaying the word "BAR" on their signposts, during Prohibition. All this info was readily available, but it was overlooked. And that stuff was dead easy to get right. Imagine the potential for mistakes in this situation we are talking about. We all want more immersion, or so we say. Imagine the immersion killing power of an improperly represented "Pilot's world". get the sim right first, then worry about the bells and whistles is my suggestion

AKA_TAGERT
01-07-2006, 09:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
But at bottom, the real issue for me is this: the game is a combat flight sim. Extraneous activities do not interest me, in a flight sim- bail out and fight your way back to base? Puh-leeze http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Man AAA? Um, that's only in the movies, AAA crew man AAA guns. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Agreed 100%! Key word, FLIGHT SIM! Simple idea, based on economics 101, the more time and money you spend on "other" things the less time and money you will have to spend on the flight sim aspects. It IS that simple! I want the best flight sim I can get, if I wanted to man an AAA gun Ill go play BF1942. Because once you go down that path of trying to be everything to everybody you end up with something nobody but some kid will like.. ie BF1942. Dont KILL flight sims by trying to make them into FPS!

Choctaw111
01-07-2006, 09:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
I have to agree with the Naysayers.

To my mind, it is easy to seperate wheat from chaff in these instances. Where is the line drawn? OK, it isn't realistic to suddenyl "appear" in a cockpit. It also isn't realistic to have a "pilot" who wasn't trained. So let's do what the USAAC did: every player takes a test, once. The player is then informed if he can progress with cadet training, and during trining, he is evaluated as being suitable for either washout, or advanced training. Once at advanced, he is tested and evaluated again, and is selected as either a single engine fighter pilot, a multi-engine fighter pilot, a light, medium, or heavy bomber pilot, or an instructor. Those who washed out of pilot training might be re-selected by the sim as navigators, bombardiers, or any of the other bomber crew positions

And when your results are given, you play as that type of airman. Period.

Now THAT would be realistic. How many bombardiers had wanted to be buzz boys? All of them.

OK, that's one extreme. The other is what we are talking about: free-form play. Well, in my opinion, the free-form play is good on the surface: it WOULD be cool to do this stuff. However- you have to temper the "cool fator" with the reality of what will be in a PC game box. To do what you're talking about properly...is self-defeating. All the time effort and money put into walking about would drive the price up, for one thing. I know we all say "yeah I'd spend 100 bucks on the sim" but we all know that's a bunch of talk and that's it. Also, players would get bored with that after the third time they saw it- all that effort for nothing. I 100% gaurantee that if this feature was incorporated, there would be whines here: "WTF, I have to walk Down the stairs to my spitfire an this other guy blocked me and then I took a wrong turn and when I got out to the field the lorry had left and I had to run for like an hour to get to my plane which was so far behind my flight I couldn't find the enemy, you stoopid oleg"

You know that would happen http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

But at bottom, the real issue for me is this: the game is a combat flight sim. Extraneous activities do not interest me, in a flight sim- bail out and fight your way back to base? Puh-leeze http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Man AAA? Um, that's only in the movies, AAA crew man AAA guns. it would be great to interact fully with every object in the sim, including stray dogs and kids who catch candy bars tossed to them over the boundary fence, but my heart and head both tell me that this is a tempting compromise that must be avoided at all costs. Put the cart after the horse: get the combat flight sim to a *much* higher level of perfection, and then concern ourselves with walking around the base and sneaking through a hole in the fence to catch a USO show in town, after the mission. To top it off, the instant somebody does this sort of thing, the very next instant thry will make glaring mistakes. Anybody every play the game "mafia"? Best single player game made in my opinion. HUGE errors in the game regarding historical accuracy: filtered cigarettes and bars prominently displaying the word "BAR" on their signposts, during Prohibition. All this info was readily available, but it was overlooked. And that stuff was dead easy to get right. Imagine the potential for mistakes in this situation we are talking about. We all want more immersion, or so we say. Imagine the immersion killing power of an improperly represented "Pilot's world". get the sim right first, then worry about the bells and whistles is my suggestion </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do agree with a lot of what you are saying. We defintely need to get the flight sim aspect of this to perfection and then worry about the bells and whistles. But some of those bells and whistles will greatly enhance the sim experience. Not all of them mind you but some of them. It would be neat to climb into your AC or to freely move about inside a bomber to man other positions if your buddies are hit. That movie posted ealier here really impressed me. You get a really good feel for what it was like inside that bomber. I have always been sick and tired of games limiting what you can do. Some games have that invisible wall on the edge of the arena you can't get past or other elements that prevent you from doing what you really want to do and you think to yourself "Why won't the game let me do this? I could do this is real life if I wanted to." It is very frustating for me to land my AC at the end of a mission and I am just stuck inside the cockpit. That annoys me to no end. I get so desperate for a sense of closure that I bail out after I shut my engine down just to see the guy getting out of the AC. I would really like to go to a debriefing room and view my guncam footage and get a tally of the total destruction we did on the enemy that day. I would like to have kill markings on my AC. If I shoot down two planes that day I want them to appear on my AC for the next mission. These are what I consider little things (OK some of them are big) that would really give you that fighter pilot feeling, a sense of pride for your accomplishments. I could just keep on going but you all get the idea...

Chuck_Older
01-07-2006, 10:10 AM
Well, surely you can see that things like manning AAA guns is very different from viewing your guncam footage (actually, you wouldn't be seeing your last mission's footage the same day you flew the mission; you'd see it the next day, because the film had to be developed and then spliced together on a reel with the other footage from the last mission, so you'd be seeing the last mission's footage after your most recent mission) or from seeing kill marks on your plane

Both the briefing/debriefing aspects and the killmark aspects are 100% do-able and do not require the amount of effort and resources that would be needed to give you a 'walk-through' view of a bomber, or player-conteolled AAA

A de-briefing, for example, would be a simple affair; a 'fill in the blank' type of report outlinging what did and how you did it; who made kill claims etc, and who was lost on the mission. It would be in effect an after-action report, as the only debrifings I can comment on would be USAAC/USAAF ones, an it was mostly a verbal affair as the intelligence officer took notes. Included in this sort of thing in-game could be confirmation of any kills made on your last mission. Kill marks are dead-easy, but the way we rack up kills in the sim, the plane would look like a well-travelled suitcase.

But both of those examples are worlds away from a walk-through bomber or first-person deployment to the flightline

Feathered_IV
01-09-2006, 05:39 AM
Yes, It'd be nice to do away with the "Enemy Aircraft Destroyed" etc. texts on the lower right of the screen. I'd like to see some after-mission screen where you submit your claims and they are processed by the intelligence officer. Then I could howl as my 'Three destroyed, two probables and four damaged' is reduced to 'one probable and two damaged' http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

And while we're at it; If I must begin a mission already in the cockpit, I'd like to be able to look out and see a ground crewman holding the chocks (Ctrl+C to wave them away) and look to my right to see another guy with the battery trolley. I also want to see him give me the thumbs up and pull th trolley away after I start up. Plus I want a green flare from the tower when its time to roll...

In the air I'd like a random chance of oxygen failure (first person view becomes blurred and wanders all over the place. Control response is diminished, followed by eventual blackout).
I'd also like the indestructable radios to be able to take damage. If my transmitter is unserviceable, I should not be able to call for a vector to base.

If I'm shot, there should be blood. If I burn, I should scream http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif.

If I bail from the inverted, I should come out with my knees tucked up to my chin. Not let my arms and legs materialise out of the sides of the cockpit as I 'ghost' my way out.

And if I ditch, I want to transmit to air/sea rescue for a fix....

And I don't care if the bloody rudder is made to move from left to right. I can't see it anyway http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

ElAurens
01-09-2006, 10:32 AM
It sounds like you guys want an animated feature film, not a flight sim.

And I do care if the control surfaces move.

Chuck_Older
01-09-2006, 05:29 PM
You can't see your rudder move, but if I'm flying next to you, I d@mn well better be able to see it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

CRO_Adriatic
01-09-2006, 05:49 PM
One world map, more simulators merged in one.

You can fly, drive& walk.

One day we will have it.

Feathered_IV
01-10-2006, 03:11 AM
Not to worry chaps, I was joking about the rudder http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

WWSensei
01-10-2006, 08:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CRO_Adriatic:
One world map, more simulators merged in one.

You can fly, drive& walk.

One day we will have it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I said, WW2Online already does exactly that. When you try to do everything you end up doing none very well.

Is it possible? Yes. Is it affordable is another question.

SeaFireLIV
01-10-2006, 09:05 AM
Blast it! You naysayers really don`t get it.


This is why IL2 is sterile. USE A LITTLE IMAGINATION.

1. Keep everything of IL2. check.
2. Add the more complex Flight Model. Check.

Now the human element:
3. You spawn as yoour virtual pilot in the field, near the aircraft, airfield.
4. You can look about and even walk, or run.
5. The sirens call. A voice over from one your men call to `get up` before jerry has us! or whatever (authentic speech anyway).
6. You run to aircraft, using simple keys and get in.
7. IL2 runs as normal.
8. Later when bail, if shot down, bail in first person.

This makes a FLIGHT SIMULATER more realistic, not less. You start with the pilot, then you have the aircraft.

We all already have the wounded pilot, the blacking out pilot. We ask for simulated pilot blindness and black-out in AI and even FEAR. What`s so unpalatable about having an even more realistic element of starting on your own TWO FEET? Staring at your beautiful Spitfire or Messerschmit? Is this not how it begins for every pilot?

You guys are missing the point and are really asking for a ROBOT sim, not a FLIGHT SIMULATER of AIR COMBAT in WWII.

Why is this so hard to accept.

Do i have to draw a story board to help you guys `see` this? It can work, without being an arcade game or childish, or whatever the naysayers say. Hmmm... I think I will do y`all a story board.

whiteladder
01-10-2006, 09:07 AM
What you need is the developers to agree on a common environment, then rather than one developer try trying to do everything poorly each one can concertrate on their field of expertise.

csThor
01-10-2006, 09:27 AM
SeaFire - What you call "human element" is simply out of question. Maddox Games is not Microsoft with unlimited ressources. Stuff like that would simply overwhelm their ressource pool and force them to leave key parts of the simulation underdeveloped. Additionally it would multiply the workload for each and every AddOn they might make as they'd have to re-do the environment every time to match the location. Can you honestly say that this is achievable, that this is worth considering?

Short pre-rendered movies รก la Red Baron II would be more than sufficient and would remain within the limits of project scope, ressources and common sense. Plus they take way less work than your "environment idea".

What you presented is a detached ideal, impossible to achieve in the imperfect reality of publishing deadlines, limited budgets and ressources. Plain and simple.

rr9
01-10-2006, 10:06 AM
It would be nice to have an extra step between the briefing and sitting in the cockpit. Especially if you have cockpit always on and externals off, it's too difficult to see where your plane is and what's around it. We get quite a few plane collisions during takeoff now.

If adding those "walk to your plane" features would take too much development effort, they could simply put a static camera near your plane. You couldn't move it, but by rotating it you'd easily get an idea of where runways are, should you take off to left or right and so on.
Once you'd seen the surroundings, just hit a key and you'd be inside the plane.

Chuck_Older
01-10-2006, 10:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Blast it! You naysayers really don`t get it.


This is why IL2 is sterile. USE A LITTLE IMAGINATION.

1. Keep everything of IL2. check.
2. Add the more complex Flight Model. Check.

Now the human element:
3. You spawn as yoour virtual pilot in the field, near the aircraft, airfield.
4. You can look about and even walk, or run.
5. The sirens call. A voice over from one your men call to `get up` before jerry has us! or whatever (authentic speech anyway).
6. You run to aircraft, using simple keys and get in.
7. IL2 runs as normal.
8. Later when bail, if shot down, bail in first person.

This makes a FLIGHT SIMULATER more realistic, not less. You start with the pilot, then you have the aircraft.

We all already have the wounded pilot, the blacking out pilot. We ask for simulated pilot blindness and black-out in AI and even FEAR. What`s so unpalatable about having an even more realistic element of starting on your own TWO FEET? Staring at your beautiful Spitfire or Messerschmit? Is this not how it begins for every pilot?

You guys are missing the point and are really asking for a ROBOT sim, not a FLIGHT SIMULATER of AIR COMBAT in WWII.

Why is this so hard to accept.

Do i have to draw a story board to help you guys `see` this? It can work, without being an arcade game or childish, or whatever the naysayers say. Hmmm... I think I will do y`all a story board. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not asking for a robot sim, Seafire

I'm asking them to get the combat flight simulator perfected before they worry about my tootsies being on the grass

This sim has some glaring faults, errors, and shortcomings. Putting resources into these other areas, when the core product isn't proven...is a mistake

Let's say you buy a new car. It runs poorly, but they promise to give you gold plated trim for it for free...well, that's putting the cart before the horse. Priority #1 in a flight sim should be the flight sim

SeaFireLIV
01-10-2006, 05:51 PM
Well, when i first started the engine in the original IL2 what was it that grabbed me? A very simple thing...

In the cockpit, while wondering if I could make a takeoff, I heard the loud WAIL of sirens in my ears. the immersion of that one thing alone was a hook, a small hook, but I suddenly realised we had something different here. In all my time on sims i`d never heard air-raid sirens in the field. It added a whole feeling of dread and urgency.

There were other little things, like the way the wheels of an aircraft spun independently on takeoff, rolling slowly to a stop.

The point is, if Oleg can do this again... INTRODUCE each player pilot in a way similar to the original IL2, but better, then he`ll introduce more potential simulater pilots, who`ll stick out the harder realistic flying because they wish to see more.

Ok, I don`t have the developer knowledge, so i do not know for sure, but it seems to me these things can be done without destroying the integrity of the sim. Neither can the doubters among you be sure that Oleg can`t pull the proverbial rabbit out of the hat either.

aukieboy
01-11-2006, 10:04 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Blast it! You naysayers really don`t get it.


This is why IL2 is sterile. USE A LITTLE IMAGINATION.

1. Keep everything of IL2. check.
2. Add the more complex Flight Model. Check.

Now the human element:



Hey hello, now that is what a real life pilot went through... before flying you first had to get yourself in that aircraft... it would make it indeed more realistic....

CRO_Adriatic
01-11-2006, 03:43 PM
I agree with Whiteladder

Choctaw111
01-11-2006, 07:51 PM
Il2 does have its faults and we all know it. What we need to attract more pilots to this sim is not necessarily fixing some small bugs but adding a new element to it that makes it more appealing to more people. Adding a quick first person "run to your AC" scenario is one such thing. There is nothing more invigorating and frightening than running to your AC while under imminent attack. As you are running to your AC the sirens are blaring and the other pilots are desperately clamoring to their AC along side of you! Talk about an adrenaline rush!! How many new simmers would be attracted to this game just based on this feature. My guess is many. It needs to be spiced up a little more.
I myself am very happy with the features in Il2 but that is not to say that this is all there should ever be. Making a great sim like this is a constant work in progress. When will you ever be done with tweaking it and making new content? Never. Not if you want a very successful sim. Oleg has the right idea in constantly working on it and coming out with patches. Never before has this been done in the gaming community. That fact that he is doing this is fantastic!!! We have so much to look forward to. My point is simple. The fact that the rate of climb is off by 100 FPM in the Spitfire(just a hypothetical example) will not discourage new pilots from getting this sim. Having a mundane and boring sim will. Having some exciting content for people other than the history buffs that know everything about the spitfire (and are annoyed by some small discrepencies) will attract more pilots to Il2. After all isn't it about attracting more people to this game and still keeping it historically correct?

Bartolomeo_ita
01-12-2006, 03:10 AM
bail in first person, is hella tight...

BadA1m
01-12-2006, 07:27 PM
I want birds!

Feathered_IV
01-13-2006, 12:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">SeaFire - What you call "human element" is simply out of question. Maddox Games is not Microsoft with unlimited ressources. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you never ask, you will never, ever get http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Twenty five years from now, I want to log on to this forum and read how HayateAce's outraged son feels that the virtual smell of the P-51 cockpit dosent have the correct 'tanginess' that he always imagined http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif.

Feathered_IV
01-13-2006, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by BadA1m:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I want birds! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

An excellent first post BTW http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

But what you really need are cows

http://www.greatguy.com/cows.jpg

csThor
01-13-2006, 01:41 AM
We're talking about now and the immediate future (2007). All I'm trying to say is that people should activate their "reality" module and not drift into the realms of feverish dreams of sim-junkies. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Feathered_IV
01-13-2006, 04:30 AM
I know, I'm just messing around http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
But we agree on the cows right?

Punkfriday
01-13-2006, 10:43 AM
if all else fails...

have a "flyable" set of AA objects for the FMB.
make it just like the ac cockpits, no humans.

BadA1m
01-13-2006, 04:50 PM
And flying monkeys too... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

BadA1m
01-13-2006, 04:52 PM
I'm sorry that was my evil twin http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

aukieboy
01-14-2006, 05:03 AM
Ok birds would be nice! Sure, I love birds... that's the main reason for me playing this sim.
A couple of aircraft flying rounds at a far distance would do the job doubling birds...
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

x6BL_Brando
01-14-2006, 07:02 AM
Just before it went tits-up around the time that IL-2 Sturmovik arrived, the Warbirds sim introduced playable tanks to their once-popular flightsim. The only effect was to further empty the skies as everyone got into the ground war. It didn't improve the game a jot, and ex-players didn't return in droves.

But if it was to be introduced to FB, or even BoB, it seems like a huge amount of work to justify, especially if you want more than a tripod-mounted medium machinegun. Virtually every AA weapon involves at least a loader and I would hazaard that the average AA crew numbered over three people. In a ground-based scenario these characters would have to be visible and carrying out the necessary actions for the simulation to look lifelike and satisfying. That's a lot of work for a) the modellers, b) the average CPU/GPU combo. If a ground post (AAA) was modelled in a similar way to a plane then it would correctly be visible in external views too. Gun, gunner, crew all in action - again it seems like a great waste of CPU cycles to model all this, online or off.

Likewise the "running to the aircraft" scenario. Does this include the donning of the flying-helmet whilst running? And will the friendly face of your rigger pulling tight the straps be seen? There's a point where the effort to portray 'realism' becomes counter-productive simply because you have introduced points of reference that may not bear close scrutiny. Far better to stay with the search for accurate cockpits and flight models than get involved in whether your mechanic is wearing a regulation RAF shirt. I can see the threads - filled with illustrated charts of typical early Fortie's haircuts , and earnestly-written proofs of why a quiff was not worn before January 1941.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif B

Feathered_IV
01-14-2006, 07:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I can see the threads - filled with illustrated charts of typical early Fortie's haircuts , and earnestly-written proofs of why a quiff was not worn before January 1941. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well that just got me running off to google to see what "quiff RAF" got me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Would you beleive it? I found an online dictionary of RAF swear words:

RAF Dictionary of Sexual Terms (http://www.sex-lexis.com/Sex-Dictionary/R.A.F.)

(Siwarrior - Stay away please)

Apparently a quiff is less of a hair cut and more of a hair pie as the say in Somerset http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif.

Oh God, I hope I don't go on holiday for this http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

x6BL_Brando
01-14-2006, 11:56 AM
LOL - it also mentions "As a noun it also meant a lock or curl of hair on the forehead."

But I would'n mind zum o' that there 'air pie , iff'n youm game? as we say in Devon. To all the girls http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Snuff_Pidgeon
01-14-2006, 11:08 PM
Hurry up with the first person stuff Oleg! I need to take a leak on the control tower...

avramis
01-18-2006, 03:14 AM
We have such a low amount of development feedback from this game, that i believe we have more serious things to start talking about, than whether we ll be able to use AA or not, walk to our plane etc.

1.Will BoB be like WoW, meaning, would it require a fee to play online?

2.The list of aircraft in BoB, seems pretty small, at this moment. Will it work the same way as il2 as far as addons and patches, adding more flyable aircraft as time goes by?

3.How open will the game be to user addons and development? We have seen an enormous amount of utilities, skins, campaigns and missions from a thriving il2 community, will we be able to do the same(and more, and to what extent..) in BoB?

4.Will Oleg return to his ready room( I understand what a heavy workload does to a man, i am not accusing anyone here..), once BoB is released, and things get a bit easier for him and his team? Being able to talk directly to the developer for a game like this, was, is, and will be extremely honest, and deeply appreciated by the many enthousiastic customers/players.

5. Will there still be a need for Hypperloby and other programs like it, or will the game have some incorporated software/client that will change the way we meet and kill eachother on the web http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif ?

6. What happens with the flight model? Is it really almost the same with the one 4.02 patch introduced? Will it have big differences? Are the sources Oleg used to design the current flight model the same he uses for BoB?

I am not starting a new topic here.
These are only a few questions that i believe are more significant for an under-development FLIGHT SIMULATOR, than the possibility of maning AA guns, or running through the base.
I ve read all the development updates released by Oleg and team, and i dont think that they answer these simple questions. Maybe its not time yet, and maybe ubisoft has more to say about some of these questions than Oleg. Who knows?

BigganD
01-21-2006, 08:16 AM
Well Oleg wrote last year that he is thinking about player controlled AA, or somthing else.. he wrote. Lets hope http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Feathered_IV
01-22-2006, 01:44 AM
Rather than playable AA, I'd rather see one slot available per side online as Radar/Ground control. They would have no aircraft to fly, however hostile and friendly aircraft would be availabe on their map screen. They could then vector fighters onto incomming aircraft. Among others, it'd make for some wicked Wilde Sau missions http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

major_setback
01-22-2006, 09:16 AM
Can we have the player controlled AA on a train?
We do have such trains in the game now scince the last patch.
I would like the train to be transported on a ferry, this then becoming beached and then towed by a large truck whilst I'm firing at enemy aircraft. Or is this too much to ask?

Just kidding http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif.

AKA_TAGERT
01-23-2006, 08:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Blast it! You naysayers really don`t get it.


This is why IL2 is sterile. USE A LITTLE IMAGINATION.

1. Keep everything of IL2. check.
2. Add the more complex Flight Model. Check.

Now the human element:
3. You spawn as yoour virtual pilot in the field, near the aircraft, airfield.
4. You can look about and even walk, or run.
5. The sirens call. A voice over from one your men call to `get up` before jerry has us! or whatever (authentic speech anyway).
6. You run to aircraft, using simple keys and get in.
7. IL2 runs as normal.
8. Later when bail, if shot down, bail in first person.

This makes a FLIGHT SIMULATER more realistic, not less. You start with the pilot, then you have the aircraft.

We all already have the wounded pilot, the blacking out pilot. We ask for simulated pilot blindness and black-out in AI and even FEAR. What`s so unpalatable about having an even more realistic element of starting on your own TWO FEET? Staring at your beautiful Spitfire or Messerschmit? Is this not how it begins for every pilot?

You guys are missing the point and are really asking for a ROBOT sim, not a FLIGHT SIMULATER of AIR COMBAT in WWII.

Why is this so hard to accept.

Do i have to draw a story board to help you guys `see` this? It can work, without being an arcade game or childish, or whatever the naysayers say. Hmmm... I think I will do y`all a story board. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Spoken like a true BF1942 fan

Novoroso
01-23-2006, 06:24 PM
I think the point the guys are making is that there are a finite amount of resources available to develop these simulators; they'd rather this time was spent on the flight aspect as opposed to the ground-based antics of a fighter.

I can see your point and I agree it would be great, but it would require additional investment I'm sure.

AKA_TAGERT
01-23-2006, 11:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by novotny721972:
I think the point the guys are making is that there are a finite amount of resources available to develop these simulators; they'd rather this time was spent on the flight aspect as opposed to the ground-based antics of a fighter.

I can see your point and I agree it would be great, but it would require additional investment I'm sure. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Exactally! Economics 101!

LEXX_Luthor
01-24-2006, 01:04 AM
After running to his/her plane once or twice, everybody here would hit ESCAPE to skip the Pilot Video and start the mission in the cockpit.

Actually, a ground level player "camera" view -- 2 meters above ground -- no pilot body parts visible -- would be nice, do a plane walkaround, and it would be a way to very roughly simulate evading capture in enemy territory (do'h, then swim across the Channel!!). Combat sharks, whales, giant squid, entaglement in seaweed, lots of possibilities.

Just for fun.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


Next, we will ask for player pilot limping from the plane if Pilot Wounded message is recieved during the mission. If the player see the Pilot Heavily Wounded message, the player is carried from the plane -- Oleg did model the interior of that ambulance, remember that screenshot?.

If an "escape" key is not offered to skip all that, I might think that I can just dive into the ground instead of landing, and load up the next mission -- but Oleg will find a way to make me watch the player pilot being dug out of a framerate stuttering smoking crater in the ground Video. Ah...dive into the sea. But then I have to watch the search and rescue Video. And then there comes the killer jellyfish again.

And, if I dare to fly Luftwaffe in a "BoB" sim, I "hop" to my plane because of permenent leg deformities caused by Bf-109 lack of rudder trim. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

whiteladder
01-24-2006, 09:51 AM
You know what I would rather see than playable AAA, playable ground controller.

Radar Plot, team speak, vector to intercept...

Now that would be fun.

Philipscdrw
01-24-2006, 12:08 PM
You don't need the terror of running to your aircraft as your airbase is under attack - just being the 7th aircraft in line for takeoff while suicidal Finnish P36s crash in flames all around you is scary enough! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Playable Radar would be fascinating. It's a truely 'Forgotten' part of the war, the people who directed the aircraft from the ground. Unfortunately, it must be nearly impossible to simulate accurately, because every nation used a different system, and I doubt there's enough documents to explain exactly how things were done.

I fly "Full Real", or with all the switches on, whatever you prefer, offline. I'm working through these DGen campaigns. For me, Il-2&sons would be greatly improved by more incremental improvements to the DGen system:

The missions are fairly predictable so far.

The Germans don't have the air superiority that I thought they had in 1941 Russia.

The briefings are inadequate - they don't tell you what friendly forces are joining you for this mission.The Briefing Officer is either psychic or a close friend of Goering - "We suspect the enemy will attack [tiny village right next to Leningrad]" and along come 9 He-111s on cue, to coincide with the arrival of the patrol.

If friendly squadrons are modelled by the campaign, you have no way to follow their process.

You can follow the process of your squadmates, and the briefing will inform you 'You have only 7 serviceable aircraft remaining!'. An aircraft roster-list, recording the life and times of each aircraft in the squadron, would be welcome. It would be a very simple feature, nothing complex.

At higher ranks it would be nice to be able to adjust the squadron's flight plans before takeoff.

[/pointless list]

It would be nice, when you land after a long, full-real, no external view mission, when you got shot at more than '50 Cent', to be able to go to an external view and inspect the damage to your aircraft. Maybe an external view that can only be applied when the engines are off and the wheels are on the ground? That would be extremely welcome.

Instead I have to save the track and go to look at that, and that takes ages.

Feathered_IV
01-25-2006, 01:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You know what I would rather see than playable AAA, playable ground controller.

Radar Plot, team speak, vector to intercept...

Now that would be fun. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Is there an echo in here?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

whiteladder
01-25-2006, 02:36 AM
sorry didn`t read the whole thread.. Ignore me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Feathered_IV
01-25-2006, 03:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">sorry didn`t read the whole thread.. Ignore me </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ignore you? Nah! I like the way you think http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

aukieboy
01-25-2006, 06:53 AM
We already have static cams to place on the airfield... now is it so hard to imagine it's only a shorty leap to a moving cam, which basically is a first person movement...