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View Full Version : AI programming is not that bad...



K_Freddie
10-06-2008, 04:19 PM
If you look at this sequence of shots of an offline mission. These 2 hurri's would have to have lonnngg necks to see each other..
http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Pics/grab0000.jpg

http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Pics/grab0001.jpg

http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Pics/grab0002.jpg

http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Pics/grab0003.jpg

http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Pics/grab0004.jpg
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

crucislancer
10-06-2008, 04:30 PM
I see that every so often in offline missions, and it makes me wonder as well. If they can "see" everything around them, why not roll away?

Heck, I've had them plow into me a few times as well.

I watched a Corsair plow into his element leader yesterday as they both tried for a George, and for a second there I thought I was on a DF server. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SeaFireLIV
10-06-2008, 04:39 PM
I`ve always tried to speak up for AI becuase it`s not that bad. Much of complaints against AI are always `psychological` , ie, `if the AI does not help me now when I want it then it`s bad AI`, regardless of the situation.

It`s always all the AI`s fault and the all-knowing Human Player is never, ever wrong.

i`m not saying the AI is never faulty, and it does act weird Online compared to Offline, but it takes all the crap because it`s easier to scapegoat than an online player who does the exact same thing, ie kill stealing, not covering friendlies..

Personally if I want a no-nonsense campaign with friendlies against enemies I`ll go AI since they`ll treat the whole thing like a war. Offline, I`ve strafed queuing enemy fighters before they get a chance to fly and I`ve been strafed by AI 109s when i`ve crashlanded.

No one complains. I can live with their faults.

Of course, online with a good squad is better, but you don`t always get that convenience.

p.s. It`s also interesting to note, that with all the multifarious whines against AI, NO ONE has even attempted to Mod the AI to make it `better`. I`ve seen MTW2 do it, Oblivion do it and other games, but not IL2.

Perhaps it`s not so easy to `fix` AI as others think it should. I`m glad cos I`d be scared that some modder would screw AI up royally.

general_kalle
10-06-2008, 04:45 PM
i dont know what to believe.
but i do know a few things regarding the AI

maybe they do see all around but are just too stupid to turn away to avoid a collision.

or maybe they dont


sometimes (sometimes!!!) you can sneak up on AI veterans if you come from their 6 low

its easier on rookie and average but thats just because they've been made stupid..
if you want to have the best of AI let them be Veteran..thats the most clever without them cheating as much as the "Ace" level.

TinyTim
10-06-2008, 05:30 PM
One thing that bothered me with AI and contributed to me becoming an almost 100% onliner is how they always see you bounce them from behind. Be it any plane you want with as bad rear view as possible and you aproaching from their dead 6 low, he wll always see you and start to maneouver. You simply cannot surprize AI, while they say in WW2 vast majority of fighter pilots who were shot down didn't see their victor.

julian265
10-06-2008, 05:45 PM
I don't remember seeing any AI planes manoeuvre to avoid collisions with planes they aren't attacking, so IMO it's not a matter of pilot's view being modelled, but rather collision avoidance not being modelled.

jensenpark
10-06-2008, 06:16 PM
I'm with Seafire.

I think too many think AI should fly like on-line humans...

but from reading volumes and volumes on ww2 pilots - I think AI fly like real pilots as much as live pilots do in this game.

I read of collisions, accidents, missed rendezvous, poor bombing, flying into mountains, pilots not obeying orders, running away and so on like the AI do a lot more than I read about real live pilots shoulder shooting or kill stealing or any of the myriad goofy things we do on line.

It ain't perfect - and can be frustrating - but the WW2 pilots hardly flew like the majority of us do in-game...

R_Target
10-06-2008, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by TinyTim:
One thing that bothered me with AI and contributed to me becoming an almost 100% onliner is how they always see you bounce them from behind. Be it any plane you want with as bad rear view as possible and you aproaching from their dead 6 low, he wll always see you and start to maneouver. You simply cannot surprize AI, while they say in WW2 vast majority of fighter pilots who were shot down didn't see their victor.

It's the #1 gripe for sure. You can fake it by chasing them down after they disengage and start to RTB though. They rarely evade.

Grey_Mouser67
10-06-2008, 08:19 PM
AI is ok...my issue with it is that imho it has gotten worse as opposed to improve. The negative G bunts and vector rolls get a little old and the FM's of AI are completely wrong in terms of altitude performance, climb rate, overheating (or lack thereof) etc... I think the issue with some planes are really AI exploits of game features...for example in some planes with high boost and manual prop controls, I speculate that the AI suffers none of the engine restraints that the human pilot has.

I don't think that AI should fly like online pilots but I do think AI aircraft should have the same limitations that online aircraft do. There was a file to bring AI back to another version and I've been tempted but not done it...of course I just don't fly as much as I used to anyways.

Bearcat99
10-06-2008, 08:46 PM
I think that overall the AI in this sim is good.. it is just in certain areas... like responding to your commands... that I have problems. If I have an AI friendly within say .80 of me.. flying level with me and I have a bandit closing in on me at say .70 and I ask for help then that friendly AI should NOT fly off on a 70-120 degree tangent.. and that happens... often. Even if the friendly has less E and has to dive to try to do a low yoyo in accordance with my moves, because I try to get the bandit in their friendlies sights.. he should not be flying away from me... That's my main beef with the AI. I should not be chased by a bandit past 3 AI friendlies and none of them do anything.. or even worse go for the bandit in front of me, instead of the one behind me.. for that I can go to Hyperlobby.. but overall when the AI is good they are good.. anhd I have had times when I call for help and it is there..

ImMoreBetter
10-06-2008, 08:52 PM
The AI is stupid when you need it to be clever.
The AI is clever when you think it will be stupid.

And this gets me every time. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

WTE_Galway
10-06-2008, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I think that overall the AI in this sim is good.. it is just in certain areas... like responding to your commands... that I have problems. If I have an AI friendly within say .80 of me.. flying level with me and I have a bandit closing in on me at say .70 and I ask for help then that friendly AI should NOT fly off on a 70-120 degree tangent.. and that happens... often. Even if the friendly has less E and has to dive to try to do a low yoyo in accordance with my moves, because I try to get the bandit in their friendlies sights.. he should not be flying away from me... That's my main beef with the AI. I should not be chased by a bandit past 3 AI friendlies and none of them do anything.. or even worse go for the bandit in front of me, instead of the one behind me.. for that I can go to Hyperlobby.. but overall when the AI is good they are good.. anhd I have had times when I call for help and it is there..

Padlock the bandit and tell the AI to "attack my target" . That way it cannot possibly misinterpret what you want.

Erkki_M
10-06-2008, 10:52 PM
Put up a QMB mission, you versus 4 AIs, you at "advantage". Make them Veterans or "Aces". Get above them, and see how they climb at you at stall speed. Now, attack number 1 or 3 and see what happens... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

AI is way too AI:ish. And it cheats.

LEBillfish
10-06-2008, 11:34 PM
Tonight in a mission by Coy*78th*Sentai where our A6M2-21 attacked 2 formations of B17-E's, I drew first blood in a low 1 o'clock head on pass of the 3rd I believe B17.

Hard hits to the nose and cockpit, he pulled up and left VERY hard banking over the formation as he dropped his ordinance rolling............. His bombs struck #4 causing it to explode (like that brutal B24 movie), the explosion ripped up #2 causing it to go down as well as the one hit still rolling over clipped #1 with his wing taking him out as well.

#3's pilot was still alive as he pulled out of his hard climb and roll then dive to the deck and struggled to catch up to the other formation.

For every instance of "AI are gods" I've seen posted here I can post an opposite I've witnessed often.......We've had better AI in the past (even more realistic), yet models are cut in stone, FM's & DM's as well for clear reasons......The AI here quite impressive simply due to how human they can be.

Imagine in 10 years.....Can you say Terminator?

K2

WTE_Galway
10-06-2008, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Tonight in a mission by Coy*78th*Sentai where our A6M2-21 attacked 2 formations of B17-E's, I drew first blood in a low 1 o'clock head on pass of the 3rd I believe B17.

Hard hits to the nose and cockpit, he pulled up and left VERY hard banking over the formation as he dropped his ordinance rolling............. His bombs struck #4 causing it to explode (like that brutal B24 movie), the explosion ripped up #2 causing it to go down as well as the one hit still rolling over clipped #1 with his wing taking him out as well.

#3's pilot was still alive as he pulled out of his hard climb and roll then dive to the deck and struggled to catch up to the other formation.

For every instance of "AI are gods" I've seen posted here I can post an opposite I've witnessed often.......We've had better AI in the past (even more realistic), yet models are cut in stone, FM's & DM's as well for clear reasons......The AI here quite impressive simply due to how human they can be.

Imagine in 10 years.....Can you say Terminator?

K2

Back in the old CS days there were a lot of addon AI bots programmed by users because the Counterstrike mod for half life did not have built in AI it was intended for online pvp only.

One of the more interesting ones used an algorithm were the AI "learns" from previous experience. The bots in question started and stayed pretty dumb for a long while but eventually after a while on the same map got to be pretty canny at finding sniping spots, finding places to ambush with knives and knowing just what weapon to swap out at what time.

M_Gunz
10-07-2008, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Imagine in 10 years.....Can you say Terminator?

K2

If they don't blow it all even more eye candy or VR.....

Some day BF, I am sure that the AI's will be killer!
I've already campaigned for AI's to have dedicated computers on LAN and net.
IMO that'd be one sure way to get them cycles and resources.

leitmotiv
10-07-2008, 02:13 AM
Aside from their advantage in physics, I think the AI does a good job of replicating actions between two not-too-well-trained sides. Often my faithful wingman is just observing while I catch a load of ordnance. If you want to play first team to first team you have to join a well-trained squadron and fight other well-trained squadrons. The best I can say for the AI is that it often does such ridiculous things it seems human---the ridiculous things can completely throw me. Sometimes it maneuvers brilliantly (even on Average) and absolutely humiliates me. The worst thing about it is that it does dumb bunny things which hand shots to you on a plate, and if you miss you need practice. The AI in BOB II is on amphetamines---you almost can't bushwhack it, nor does it give you a shot on a plate. Would be nice if BOB II's AI program for defense could be grafted onto IL-2.

Feathered_IV
10-07-2008, 02:42 AM
I don't have many gripes with the AI. All things considerd, it gets more right than it does wrong. Although one thing I'd like to see is a return of their ability to fly at very low level.

One tip for offline players is to ensure your missions have a mixture of skill levels in their formations. Even if it means manually editing campaigns and the like. It is easy to become overly familiar with the répertoire of the Average setting and loose a lot of immersion as a result. Making use of the full range of pilot skills can be quite an experience. I started doing it earlier this year when I ditched the online game in favour of a modded offline one. It's made a huge difference. Especially when you've carried all before you and waded into the next engagement, only to suddenly realise you are up against a squad of aces.

Falcke
10-07-2008, 05:10 AM
AI is not perfect. But it behaves 50 times more realistic than the average 'real' online pilot. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

stalkervision
10-07-2008, 09:04 AM
Ai not that bad! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif AAA is working on a older version of the ai to put into the game it's that bad. If it gets rid of the completely unrealistic incessent Ai habit of rolling constantly when your on their six and doing up and down short silly dives and climbs I am all for it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

squareusr
10-07-2008, 12:32 PM
My observations of AI behaviour have always suggested that the AI is made aware of a certain number of planes (perfectly, through clouds, hills and it's own back) but completely ignores everything else. Probably a good strategy to avoid even worse frame drops in intense encounters.

Obviously, it can switch focus from time to time, but as long as it is chasing an enemy it won't do the magic 400 meters trick* very often. Also, having the focus locked on some lone recon aircraft just within the radius of the amazing AI dot vision could well be an explanation for that funny "hold formation until your plane explodes, even if it takes for the enemy on your six a minute to down you with his beanthrower"-behaviour that your AI squadmates will sometimes demonstrate. I don't have a theory for when exactly the focus preference is reevaluated.

*(about the 400 meter trick: yes, i admit to having used icons, with the distance indicator active you hate the AI's rear-view ability even more since you know in advance the exact second when the AI will break into the wild rolling pattern)

WOODY01
10-09-2008, 04:52 AM
But what if the AI could post here and complain about you the flight leader? What would they say? "but you didnt lead properly, didnt give the right commands from the start and we all got confused and couldnt see you when you asked for help?"

I hear a common "man those AI are thick" after they crash behind someone on landing (just obaying orders, never recived the order to RTB etc...)

What I have found leading The Flying Kiwis Squadron in coops over the last couple of years is if you take off, order the Squadron in formation and communicate with them often, let them know exactly what you want when you want it they are as realiable as Mcdonalds.

The trick is keep communicating with them. Also the mission builders have a big part to play as if a flight gets too a waypoint but hasnt been assigned a target they will sometimes ignore your requests, its a fine balance between mission slickness from the mission builder and flight leader slickness at mission time, just like real life I guess.

But its just too easy too cover our own deficiancys with 'bad AI' calls I guess.

M_Gunz
10-09-2008, 05:48 AM
I just wish I could see as well as they do.

Bearcat99
10-09-2008, 06:48 AM
Originally posted by ImMoreBetter:
The AI is stupid when you need it to be clever.
The AI is clever when you think it will be stupid.
And this gets me every time. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

LOL


Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I think that overall the AI in this sim is good.. it is just in certain areas... like responding to your commands... that I have problems. If I have an AI friendly within say .80 of me.. flying level with me and I have a bandit closing in on me at say .70 and I ask for help then that friendly AI should NOT fly off on a 70-120 degree tangent.. and that happens... often. Even if the friendly has less E and has to dive to try to do a low yoyo in accordance with my moves, because I try to get the bandit in their friendlies sights.. he should not be flying away from me... That's my main beef with the AI. I should not be chased by a bandit past 3 AI friendlies and none of them do anything.. or even worse go for the bandit in front of me, instead of the one behind me.. for that I can go to Hyperlobby.. but overall when the AI is good they are good.. anhd I have had times when I call for help and it is there..

Padlock the bandit and tell the AI to "attack my target" . That way it cannot possibly misinterpret what you want. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm Ill have to try that...

stalkervision
10-09-2008, 07:38 AM
Then the wingman will say he's too busy to bother and a minute or so later will scream that he needs help much more then you. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

DuxCorvan
10-11-2008, 06:29 AM
Nine things I hate about AI:

-They can smell you are on their back from half a kilometer, but will happily ram Mount Everest right before their eyes.

-They will follow you till the end of the world. If you engage them over Moscow, they will follow you back to Berlin till their fuel runs out, or they're down.

-Rolling rolling rolling...

-Robo-gunner and his first-shot-is-head-shot.

-"Enemies!" WoOoOoOoOsHH! Hyperdrive engaged, jump to hyperspace.

-They wont shoot a target 10 m right before them because they have padlocked another one which is 3 miles away.

-"AaaaAAAaaaaAAAgh! what are you dooooing?" "AaaaaAAAaaaagh!"

-Zeros can dive after P-47s and no problem.

-Are Mistels usable by AI now?

The rest of issues, I don't mind much.