PDA

View Full Version : Guns on Hurricane, Spitfire



HotelBushranger
04-19-2006, 03:25 AM
Can Oleg please fix this? The current setup we have, IIRC the Dowding Pattern or something, was only used in early BoF and BoB, then they were configured to fire a cone of fire, which greatly increased the firepower effectivity of the Hurri and Spit. At the moment, especially with the Hurricane and its 8/12 guns, they are worthless unless you get your opponent to show his broadside in a turn. Otherwise they suck. Can Oleg have a big of historical (and practical) accuracy and fix this please?

FI-Skipper
04-19-2006, 05:13 AM
Agree with you 100%!

You can fire all the ammo of the Hurricane into some fighters and bombers (especially the He111) and do nothing...perhaps a fuel leak if you are lucky...

Skipper

HotelBushranger
04-19-2006, 05:44 AM
Aye, just playing Hurricane Season and its impossible to shoot things down without that cone of fire http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

mothyp
04-19-2006, 07:05 AM
i thought the dowding spread was simply the convergance set too far away ie about 400yards,whereas the pilots soon learnt that about 250 yards was the prefferd and more deadly convergance, i dont beleive the guns could be pointed up or down just toe in or out so in theory the 8 guns would still fire on the same level, but then again im not and never have been an amourer in ww2,

DuxCorvan
04-19-2006, 08:28 AM
Anyway, rifle-caliber guns are waaay too underpowered in this sim. I mean, they were really ineffective -being soon replaced by heavy MGs and cannons- but not this useless. Specially non-Shkas guns seem to exist only for noisemaking in this sim.

In real life, you'd hardly get a kill in a pass or in a short burst like with MGs or cannons, but at least, you'd damage or kill *something* if you managed to unload *all* your ammo in a concentrated point. In FB/PF you rarely can.

SnailRunner
04-19-2006, 04:20 PM
Im not sure if i got guided bullets, or im looking different on this.

because of events in our campaign we had to use hurrys (gun version aint 20mm monster)

We found out that 1 head on pass against any bomber was enough to bring them down. We actualy found it abit to easy so we tryed it out in DF. And yes the bb guns doent kill the plane, but it deffently kill the crew, yes even AI wearing kevlar wests...

in many many missions we have seen bombers fly away...and away and away and of map cause of dead crew. A kill is not only fire / heawy smoke or an explosion, the crew is as vital and the 8 gun hurry is werry deadly at killing crews...

It seems from dead six or around those parts damedge ar not that good, but head ons where you shoot engines or cocpit works werry well in the hurry.....try it out

HotelBushranger
04-20-2006, 02:13 AM
Yes thats all well and good against large targets like He-111's (which have an unarmoured glass cockpit I might add), but against fighters 90% of your spray goes all over the place.

Mothyp, the Dowding Spread was the theory that seeing most pilots would have little training, they wouldn't be able to hit the broadside of a barn. So, they would make the guns fire like a shotgun spread, increasing the chances of hitting something. In reality though, it was dodge and when pilots reverted to the 250 yard cone convergence, the kills starting raking up.

I've seen a gazillion vets reports that a burst from 8 brownings would be enough to tear a wing off. In game, I'm lucky to get a hole in the wing!

F19_Ob
04-20-2006, 03:40 AM
Yeah there is a problem for the planes with mg's
but not so easy to solve.

Personally I think the ineffectivenes of machineguns might be due to too few hitboxes on the plane and/or following:
Many of the rounds may hit in places where less damage is recorded or hit too few times on a hitbox to show visible damage.
This means that one may hit all over the enemy and see multiple stikes, but they are spread out so infact there are only a few hits per hitbox and it is difficult to hit the exact spot over and over from even 50-100 meters. Cannons get faster result with just one strike.
So although there may be minor invisible damage the shooter will feel nothing has been achieved.

In the sim we also see only medium and severe damage on the skin and not minor hits as would be with light mg's.
The reason for showing only medium and severe damage i think is because the infinite number of textures that would have been necesary to show minor damage all over the plane.

This cant be fixed until BoB I belive and one perhaps can't make the light mg's stronger either without being forced to make the heavy mg's stronger aswell and so on.


just a few thoughts

mortoma
04-20-2006, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by HotelBushranger:

I've seen a gazillion vets reports that a burst from 8 brownings would be enough to tear a wing off. In game, I'm lucky to get a hole in the wing! Did Browning make .303 guns for the British?? I thought Browning was an American company. I think they made .50 cals, not .303 cals. Am I not correct about this?? Tell me if I'm wrong.

FI-Skipper
04-20-2006, 09:48 AM
No i'm 95% certian that the MG's in the Spit and Hurri were 8 Browning .303's

Skipper

EDIT:Yes its true....check the "Armament" Section on here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Hurricane#Specifica..._.28Hurricane_IIC.29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Hurricane#Specifications_.28Hurricane_IIC.2 9)

Same for the Spitfire

Irish_Rogues
04-20-2006, 09:57 AM
I think F19 is onto something as those sipers on the bombers firing rifle-caliber guns always seem to hit some critical area on my plane (Including the piolt on more times then I would think possible) knocking me out of action.

Kocur_
04-20-2006, 10:00 AM
Originally posted by mortoma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HotelBushranger:

I've seen a gazillion vets reports that a burst from 8 brownings would be enough to tear a wing off. In game, I'm lucky to get a hole in the wing! Did Browning make .303 guns for the British?? I thought Browning was an American company. I think they made .50 cals, not .303 cals. Am I not correct about this?? Tell me if I'm wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The British WW2 .303 mgs in all wing mountings were almost identical to US .30 M2, i.e. it was John Browning design, but manufactured by Colt company as MG40. The gun won in British competition for new fixed aerial gun in 1934 and was produced in UK as Browning Mk.1 and Mk.2.

Irish_Rogues
04-20-2006, 10:04 AM
Browning also made the .30 cal MG and of course the BAR (Browning Automatic Rifle) which was .308 cal.

Scen
04-20-2006, 10:21 AM
Someone had already mentioned it but I have no problems taking down JU88s with the Huri armed with the 303s.

You have to get close period. Shooting from 400 meters is way too far. Concentrate your fire on critical points. You won't be ripping wings off but you will be shredding engines and control surfaces. If you're real good shoot for the cockpit.

In addition shooting down fighters isn't all that hard. It takes a bit longer compared to a cannon armed bird but getting their engine to smoke or catch fire isn't difficult at all. My convergence is 218 and I put a 109s wing tip to wing tip in the center of the pipper... He will come down.

Fire close because you need as many hits as possible.

JG4_Helofly
04-20-2006, 10:22 AM
The new dynamic damage model of bob will certainly increase the effectiveness of the mg. It will be more complex and you will probably be able to damage more different things.

WTE_Galway
04-20-2006, 06:53 PM
offline the early hurri guns are not a problem .. as mentioned above you just kill the crew (shooting head on) or even hole a fuel tank (easiest firing up from directly below) and eventually the target will go down

I often fly QMB with a Hurri or an Emil with just MG against various bombers for fun and they are quite effective.

What these small calibre guns do not give you is an instant kill .. which means online someone else will probabaly claim the kill before your damage brings it down.

HellToupee
04-20-2006, 08:35 PM
even with 12 303s its a very big struggle to down fighters, even control loss seems very difficult to cause when one or 2 cannon hits seems to always do that yet 12 303s all over the place rarely cause controls to go. U put hundreds of rounds into fighters and bombers to no effect, 303s were underpowered by by pilots accounts they were not useless.

p1ngu666
04-21-2006, 01:52 AM
303 rof =20
8x20=160
12x20=240

with an average of 200bullets per second going into a flying greenhouse, yeah, u would expect abit of effect. unless the crew are all action heros http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

the 303's have considerable dispersion, and i think they go up and down in a wave, the green "lasers" on the il2s do the same. its abit silly..

anasteksi
04-21-2006, 07:02 AM
Originally posted by Irish_Rogues:
Browning also made the .30 cal MG and of course the BAR (Browning Automatic Rifle) which was .308 cal. except BAR was 30-06 sprg like allmost all US's rifle caliber guns in that time except M1 carbine.. .308 came much more later. .30 NATO is bit different to .308.

Kocur_
04-21-2006, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by Irish_Rogues:
Browning also made the .30 cal MG and of course the BAR (Browning Automatic Rifle) which was .308 cal.

If by "made" you mean "designed", than its right, but if it was supposed to mean "produced", than no, John Moses or Browning Brothers did not produce those weapons. John Browning sold his patents to various companies, which produced them. Those include Winchester Arms, Colt Arms Manufacturing Company, Fabrique Nationale, Remington Arms Company, Savage Arms Company. Production rights were also further sold to various countries.

Lordbutter4
04-21-2006, 03:39 PM
The rifle damage seems really low. I use Hurricanes quite often online and it really becomes a problem when you start getting into stick sturring players who will gladly let you hit the rear hitboxes because they know it wont do a bit of good. Not to mention its not that easy to keep a solid hit on a player while they are doing that, so you end up with a bunch of strikes all over that do nothing.

As far as when I do hit, the damage just seems lame. Even on a good solid cockpit hit, the chance of pilot kill is rare. Placing 100-200 rounds of 303 in a cockpit is going to do something. Even 10 or 12 is lethal.

I agree on bombers they seem to work fine. In fact its funny but using 50's and 303's against bombers seems to work better then using 20mm. Most bombers I can quickly PK pilots while cannons strikes just seem to hit and do not a whole lot.

A real problem is missing vitals such as radiators. Early war where hurricanes shine best we lack radiators to hit.

Kocur_
04-21-2006, 03:49 PM
I've seen a gazillion vets reports that a burst from 8 brownings would be enough to tear a wing off.

IIRC post-BoB conclusion on .303s was, that they produced kills by either killing crew or damaging controls. The next thing would be radiators, but I have big problems beliving that any RCMGs were capable of producing structural failures of airframe on regular basis!

KG26_Alpha
04-21-2006, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I've seen a gazillion vets reports that a burst from 8 brownings would be enough to tear a wing off.

IIRC post-BoB conclusion on .303s was, that they produced kills by either killing crew or damaging controls. The next thing would be radiators, but I have big problems beliving that any RCMGs were capable of producing structural failures of airframe on regular basis! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Also read this Combat report from a brave pilot.

To: Intelligence H.Q. Fighter Command,

From: Intelligence Speke,

Date: 1/11/42

Ref: S.P./S 369/int.


Personal Combat Report

A) DATE OF COMBAT 18/9/42,

B) UNIT, Merchant Ship Fighter Unit

C) TYPE OF A/C Hurricane M.K. 1 Eight Machine Guns,

D) TIME OF ATTACK About 11.55 hours,

E) PLACE OF ATTACK 68.30 N42.30 W

F) WHEATER 7/10 Cloud at 2000 feet 10/10 Cloud at 4000 feet Vis 10 miles,

G) OUR CASUALTIES A/C Nil,

H) OUR CASUALTIES PERSONNEL nil,

I) ENEMY CASUALTIES Two H.E. 111s destroyed


On 18th September 1942 at 1015 hours local time I was at readiness when the R.D.F. Guard ship reported that enemy aircraft were in the vicinity of the convoy. I got into the cockpit of the aircraft and everything was made ready for launching. The enemy aircraft appeared at a height of 4,000 feet and were identified as Ju.88. These aircraft proceeded to bomb and dive bomb the convoy individually from cloud and it was not thought advisable to launch the aircraft.

At 11.00 a.m. it was reported that 9 He.111 torpedo carrying aircraft were coming in from astern low down on the water. M F.D.O Lt. Carrigue gave the Captain instructions to fire me off, but as the ship was not clear ahead, no action was taken by the Captain and a red flag was given the firing officer P/O Davies. After this attack had faded, we were still being bombed when I noticed that my electrical installation had broken down entirely. The R.T.O. and the other members of the crew very calmly proceeded to check the fuses and they changed the battery with bombs falling round the ship.

At 11.50 a.m. local time another group of torpedo carrying aircraft were reported coming in of the port quarter. This time we were all set to shoot off and a good launch was effected. As the ship was in position 53 in the middle of the convoy, I had to swerve violently to avoid balloon cables of other ships, I also had to take avoiding action from Bofors and Oerlikon fire from one or two of the ships who opened up on me.

I was in immediate communication with my F.D.O. and climbed to about 700€ and went round to the port quarter of the convoy where I could see the 15 He.111 coming in in line abreast. They were about 3 miles from the stern of the convoy about 50€. I dived on them and carried out a head on and port beam attack on a He.111, opening fire at 300 yards and closing to 150yards. I noticed my shots striking the engine and nose of the Heinkel and as I turned above and behind to the left I noticed white smoke coming from his starboard engine. I closed again to 250 yards and gave him the rest of my ammunition in a quarter attack carried out from both his engines, but as I was interfering with the flack from the ships I broke right and went round the stern to the starboard side of the convoy. From there I observed that no ships had been hit by the torpedoes. On going round to the front of the convoy I saw the wreckage of a Heinkel 111 in the water between the two columns on the port side. My F.D.O. told me to patrol the starboard side of the convoy for although I had used all my ammunition it was my intention to show myself to any other formation and endeavor to break it up with a mock attack. No more aircraft appeared but the Ju.88 were still bombing from the clouds. I checked my fuel and found I had 70 gallons left. I asked my F.D.O. for the distance and vector to the nearest aerodrome. He replied that it was 240 miles away on a vector of 180ºM. I decided to try and save the aircraft and I set out on this course allowing 10º for drift steering 170ºM.

I ran into a fog bank about 40 miles wide after 15 minutes flying but managed to make landfall and pin point my position. I flew at heights between 200€ and 2000€ and arriving at Archangel I fired the recognition signal and found Keg Ostrov aerodrome where I landed at 14.15 hours with 5 gallons in my reserve tank left.

Subsequent to the dispatch of my Combat Reported dated 19th September 1942 and when the convoy arrived at Archangel, I was informed by the Captains of H.M.S. Ulster Queen and H.M.S. Gleaner and officers from other ships, that when I made my first attack, they saw a Heinkel 111 swerved out of formation and in attempting a tight turn near sea level crash into the water. I did not see this happen and therefore knew nothing about it when my original combat report was prepared.


AHBurr
1st November, 1942 A.H. Burr.
Flying Officer R.A.F.V.R

Irish_Rogues
04-21-2006, 05:03 PM
Whew, tough crowd. Been many years since I was a lad and this stuff was my world. Yes, I meant made as in design, posting at work means posting on the fly.

And I do remember reading in somebody's book (Either Bader's Or Tuck's I think) about a meeting with RAF squadron leaders about the effectiveness of the .303's and a switch to 20 mm. The old timers thought they were fine and switching would be foolish while the younger guns were in favor of something harder hitting.

WTE_Plugga
04-21-2006, 05:50 PM
It was definately in Baders book, havent read Tucks, Bader refused to take the new Hispano equipped Spits and was the last in his SQN to do so...he was how ever sold on them after a period of time when learnt how best to use them.

_VR_ScorpionWorm
04-22-2006, 06:55 AM
Pehaps its this way because it is to reflect the aircraft used on the Lend-Lease not by RAF?

SUPERAEREO
04-22-2006, 07:02 AM
What I know for sure is that in IL2 100-120 hits from the rear quarter with your .303's on a He.111 often have little or no visible effect, although I suspect the Heinkels of being slightly more "robust" than their real life counterparts.


S!

KG26_Alpha
04-22-2006, 08:16 AM
Geezus didnt you read the post I made above ????

The pilot put ALL his .303 ammo into a He111 in two passes.

Problem is you guys expect to take down a whole squadron of bombers with these planes and it just never happened.

FI-Skipper
04-22-2006, 10:14 AM
I'd be happy to just take the one down!

SUPERAEREO
04-22-2006, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by KG26_Alpha:
Geezus didnt you read the post I made above ????

The pilot put ALL his .303 ammo into a He111 in two passes.

Problem is you guys expect to take down a whole squadron of bombers with these planes and it just never happened.



Well... somehow they got shot down in numbers in the summer of 1940...


In the case mentioned the pilot EXPENDED all his ammo, but we don't know what percentage of it actually hit the e/a.

A Hurricane Mk.I had 2668 rounds of .303 and took about 20 seconds to fire the load.

That would make two passages lasting around 10 seconds each.

But expending all your .303 ammo against a Heinkel without having a kill in IL 2 happens quite regularly in my experience (although I admit I'm not a great shot).

I never expected to shoot down whole Squadrons of bombers, bur surely the Heinkels are quite resilient to small calibre fire in the sim.

They seemed to be somewhat easier to shoot down in the original IL2 I guess.


S!

KG26_Alpha
04-22-2006, 03:36 PM
The difference is alot of pilots want to see the plane explode or a wing fall off in IL2 what invariably happened as in WW2 was the bombers went in after an attack due to damage to engines and controls and of course the crew were vunerable from a head on wich as the Hurri pilot quoted he made his first pass.
Also yes plenty of bombers were shot down but so were fighters and the Hurricane is moddled to be tough also to cannon rounds unfortunately you cant have the hundreds of bomber flights swarming around in IL2 as with the fighter intercept it not possible on a multiplayer session to emulate that, so the imbalance is there that you have in IL2 say 4 bombers v 8-12 fighters and of course it was always the other way around.
The .303 was a good weapon at the time but it never cut through bomber formations ripping them out the skies, unless the correct attack procedure was made you were wasting your time as He111's soaked up many hits from .303's.

VW-IceFire
04-22-2006, 04:26 PM
I've played lots of online scenarios with Hurricanes and Heinkels. Rightly or wrongly...the game doesn't award nearly as much damage attackinga plane from the rear as it does an angle shot.

So if you're constantly making deflection shot passes on Heinkels (preferably from the top or bottom) you can down one or two bombers. Provided nobody steals the kill anyways...

Thing is that Heinkels will go down very effectively after a short burst if its well aimed. But it probably won't crash for another 10 minutes or so...and most of the pilots seem to expect uber explosions galore.

FritzGryphon
04-22-2006, 04:53 PM
Rightly or wrongly...the game doesn't award nearly as much damage attackinga plane from the rear as it does an angle shot.


It would make sense. The placement of equipment and armor on aircraft was generally tailored to defend against rear attack.

Plus, all the critical equipment, like the pilot, engines and so forth, are easier to hit from the front, top or side.

The silhouette of the aircraft is also largest from the top, allowing the greatest volume of hits.

From the rear, the silhouette is very small, and you can only really hit the tail and wings. Fuel tanks perahps, but they are more vulnerable from the top as well.

georgeo76
04-22-2006, 09:13 PM
I have always found the 12x.303 to be very effective against bombers and fighters. The previous posters made good points:

Get close

Attack from high angle off

Just because he didn't explode, doesn't mean you didn't kill him

Get closer

I would argue that from <100m, 12x.303 are as effective as the dreaded mk108.

horseback
04-22-2006, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I've seen a gazillion vets reports that a burst from 8 brownings would be enough to tear a wing off.

IIRC post-BoB conclusion on .303s was, that they produced kills by either killing crew or damaging controls. The next thing would be radiators, but I have big problems beliving that any RCMGs were capable of producing structural failures of airframe on regular basis! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Let's try this: multiple rifle caliber strikes in close proximity to each other shred the aluminum, tearing away some sections. The air pressure of high speed flight does the rest, peeling away at the sheets, that just coincidentally provide a great deal of the structural strength, and places a great deal of extra stress on the structure-from the wrong directions.

All this takes place in a matter of seconds, and a fighter's wing comes off (hey, no way does a Heinkel lose a wing to a single fighter's .303s without fire).

Incidentally, the fire causing capabilities of the light MGs is grossly undermodelled as well (except for the ai bomber gunners).

cheers

horseback

HotelBushranger
04-22-2006, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by KG26_Alpha:
The difference is alot of pilots want to see the plane explode or a wing fall off in IL2 what invariably happened as in WW2 was the bombers went in after an attack due to damage to engines and controls and of course the crew were vunerable from a head on wich as the Hurri pilot quoted he made his first pass.
Also yes plenty of bombers were shot down but so were fighters and the Hurricane is moddled to be tough also to cannon rounds unfortunately you cant have the hundreds of bomber flights swarming around in IL2 as with the fighter intercept it not possible on a multiplayer session to emulate that, so the imbalance is there that you have in IL2 say 4 bombers v 8-12 fighters and of course it was always the other way around.
The .303 was a good weapon at the time but it never cut through bomber formations ripping them out the skies, unless the correct attack procedure was made you were wasting your time as He111's soaked up many hits from .303's.

I'm not expecting explosions or anything, no way. At the moment, you can't even get damaged engines or damaged controls, because the guns fire a spread inaccurate enough to be concentrated on one target to be effective.
And yes horseback is right, the sheer volume of 8 rounds falling on one small patch of wing at a very high rof is more than enough to shed that part of the wing.

HellToupee
04-22-2006, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by georgeo76:
I have always found the 12x.303 to be very effective against bombers and fighters. The previous posters made good points:

Get close

Attack from high angle off

Just because he didn't explode, doesn't mean you didn't kill him

Get closer

I would argue that from <100m, 12x.303 are as effective as the dreaded mk108.

not a chance, i can sit point blank just hammering a 109 and even with up to 100hits just have some fuel leak, control loss is rare with 303s, wing loss is almost never, pilot kills also rare, about the only kills i ever get are when u set them on fire.

FritzGryphon
04-22-2006, 11:36 PM
not a chance, i can sit point blank just hammering a 109 and even with up to 100hits just have some fuel leak, control loss is rare with 303s, wing loss is almost never, pilot kills also rare, about the only kills i ever get are when u set them on fire.

You haven't been attacked by these weapons much, I don't think. Control failures are immediate and crippling, with any small number of light MG hits. Pilot kills too, where it's possible (not blocked by airframe or armor).

I liked to play He-111 in BoB-like coops, and more than once found myself steering on engines and flaps alone.

leitmotiv
04-23-2006, 05:23 AM
I have used the Hurricanes I and IIB intensively since I started using the Maddox sims two years ago. They are two of my favorite aircraft and I am very fond of the IIB. My first observation on the commentaries re the ineffectiveness of .303---rifle-caliber---ammunition is that the convergence must be set close to get it to work. I am aware many prefer to set convergence at long ranges with this sim, but, if you want to enjoy success with the American Browning with 1940 English ammunition, go in close or you will be unhappy. I suggest a learning seminar with either of the lamentable Soviet SB bombers. Set up four groups of three and go after them with a Finn Hurricane I. You will quickly see those .303s can be devastating against aircraft without self-sealing fuel tanks. Both, I and IIB, could be deadly against 109s and 110s, esp the latter, and some of the best QMB bashes are Hurricane Is vs, 110C-4s. The .303 Brownings had trouble with the well-armored mid-1940 Heinkels with self-sealing fuel tanks. A quick perusual of any illustrated Battle of Britain history will show photographs of many Heinkels perforated from stem to stern but managed to either come down intact in England or crawl back to France. The problem with the "Dowding Spread" was that the convergence was set too far out. The English quickly learned in the Battle of France to make the convergence point-blank, 100-50 yards. This will not bag you a Heinkel automatically, but you will certainly beat the heck out of him. The English switched to the 20mm Oelikons for 1941 production Spitfires and Hurricanes because the B of Brit had demonstrated conclusively the .303 Browning was incapable of producing destruction of a modern bomber in a quick pass.

Shrike_UK
04-23-2006, 06:14 AM
bullets loose speed over distance. Shooting from the rear the bullets will travel further, from the front you have the closing distance of the aircraft to shorten the flight time of the bullet.

attacking from 6 o'clock of bandit is also worst position when attacking with lower speed projectiles.

leitmotiv
04-23-2006, 07:02 AM
111 Squadron, the first squadron to be equipped with the Hurricane, perfected a line-abreast-head-on attack which made them probably the deadliest anti-bomber squadron in the RAF during the B of Britain. Geoffrey Page was one of many RAF fighter pilots set on fire or killed by making 6 o'clock attacks on German bomber formations. With a fuel tank directly in front of your instrument panel and no firewall in between, you really didn't want to offer your snout to bomber gunners in the Hurricane. By the way, you can be set afire in this tank with the Maddox Hurricane I---has happened to me a few times. In the Hurricane I or IIB, best to take a page from 111 Squadron's book and hit the Heinkels head-on where you can rake their greenhouses.

Jaws2002
04-23-2006, 10:58 AM
Why don't you guys just check how effective the the .303 ammo was back then.
There is plenty info. The .303 Browning was a lousy gun when facing bombers with self sealing fuel tanks and decent armor.

Go to Ring's Page. He has lots of documents from original RAF tests.
Here:
Ring's P.R.O. Documents Research Page (http://marinergraphics.com:16080/ww2/weapons.htm)

georgeo76
04-23-2006, 02:28 PM
This thread has peaked my interest. So I've done some back of the envelope testing. I set up a flight of 4 Ju88s or 4 He111 and attacked them with Hurricane mkIIb.

findings:

head-on attacks were devastating if you aim for the crew compartment. I was able to take down the bombers w/ one pass about 50% of the time with this method. Once, I got 2 Ju88s w/ one pass this way. (total luck, I wasn't even aiming for the second one).

Overhead and high-side attacks were effective too. I aimed well ahead of the bomber and dead center of his horizontal axis. I hoped to get rounds through the Plexiglases, but wayward bullets would land in the cowling and wing-roots which was cherry as well. Crew kills and engine fires were readily achievable this way.

Flat side attacks worked well too. Since this attack rakes the aircraft it plays to the strengths and weaknesses of the .303. On the one hand, catastrophic damage was very rare. On the other, multiple sources of damage were achievable with engine smoke and fuel leaks commonly resulting from a single pass.

Obviously, the He111 was tougher than the Ju88. However in terms of how many passes they take to kill and where to aim to achieve the most damage, they can be treated the same. The only practical difference was the phenomenal vulnerability of the Ju88 to frontal attacks.

Other things to note are that my convergence was set to 120m. I was keen to avoid defensive fire, taking great care to set up proper attacks. I didn't fire early and bore in, favoring split-second/point blank/precision shots.

FritzGryphon
04-23-2006, 06:19 PM
Go to Ring's Page. He has lots of documents from original RAF tests.
Here:
Ring's P.R.O. Documents Research Page

Very nice info there, thanks for posting!

It is surprising to me how little success they had causing leaks or fires in self-sealing tanks.

panzerd18
04-24-2006, 12:44 AM
I also just did some testing against bombers and fighters with the Hurricane.

My findings are like georgeo76's.

The .303's are good against engines and the cockpit section.

I had my convergence set to 180m. Against twin engine bombers like the He111 or Ju88 from behind you shoot for the engines. With all aircraft when firing on from behind its hard to hit the cockpit as its a relatively small area. Therefore I found that to take out single engine aircraft, the best tactic is to use front on attacks and side/top/bottom attacks where more of the aircraft is exposed. From any angle other than on their 6 you can then fire on the engine and crew compartment.

panzerd18
04-24-2006, 12:52 AM
"One lesson of early fighting was that the RAF fighters' battery of RCMGs was less effective than expected. Although the eight guns between them fired no fewer than 160 rounds per second (rps), they were initially adjusted to concentrate their fire at the long range of 365 m which led to the bullet strikes being spread across the target at shorter ranges. As self-sealing fuel tanks and armour became much more common during 1940, it proved necessary to concentrate fire at much closer ranges.

The problem was that the small bullets fired by the RCMGs could not carry enough incendiary or explosive to guarantee success, and also had insufficient penetration to defeat armour reliably. A series of ground tests carried out by the British, firing at a redundant Bristol Blenheim from 180 m to the rear with various British and German guns and ammunition, revealed that the .303 incendiary B Mk VI bullets would set light to a Blenheim wing tank with only one hit in five; during the Battle only one or two of the eight guns were normally loaded with this ammunition. Other .303 and 7.92 mm incendiaries were only half as effective. Similarly, while both German and British steel-cored armour-piercing (AP) rounds could penetrate up to 12 mm of armour plate if fired directly at it from 180 m, most of the bullets were deflected or tumbled by first passing through the fuselage skin or structure. In consequence, only a quarter to a third of the bullets reached the Blenheim's 4 mm-thick armour plate at all, and very few penetrated it."

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/CannonMGs.htm

HotelBushranger
04-24-2006, 03:50 AM
Good find http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

WOLFMondo
04-24-2006, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by georgeo76:
This thread has peaked my interest. So I've done some back of the envelope testing. I set up a flight of 4 Ju88s or 4 He111 and attacked them with Hurricane mkIIb.

findings:

head-on attacks were devastating if you aim for the crew compartment. I was able to take down the bombers w/ one pass about 50% of the time with this method. Once, I got 2 Ju88s w/ one pass this way. (total luck, I wasn't even aiming for the second one).

Overhead and high-side attacks were effective too. I aimed well ahead of the bomber and dead center of his horizontal axis. I hoped to get rounds through the Plexiglases, but wayward bullets would land in the cowling and wing-roots which was cherry as well. Crew kills and engine fires were readily achievable this way.

Flat side attacks worked well too. Since this attack rakes the aircraft it plays to the strengths and weaknesses of the .303. On the one hand, catastrophic damage was very rare. On the other, multiple sources of damage were achievable with engine smoke and fuel leaks commonly resulting from a single pass.

Obviously, the He111 was tougher than the Ju88. However in terms of how many passes they take to kill and where to aim to achieve the most damage, they can be treated the same. The only practical difference was the phenomenal vulnerability of the Ju88 to frontal attacks.

Other things to note are that my convergence was set to 120m. I was keen to avoid defensive fire, taking great care to set up proper attacks. I didn't fire early and bore in, favoring split-second/point blank/precision shots.

There is one crucial problem with your findings. Your method of attack is very different from how the Hurricanes did it in the battle of Britain. The process was pretty simple but suicide in this sim. Hurricanes would approach the bombs from the rear and slightly abover and only a little faster than the bomber in a line astern formation, each raking the bomber from behind in turn. It worked in the BoB but in this sim its a one way ticket to a dead engine.

Pinker15
04-24-2006, 01:50 PM
In 1939 even 2 smal caliber guns of P11c was enought for polish pilots to bring down He111 and later when they get Hurrys with 12 303 brownings it was more than enougth to bring this bomber in one pass. Sure they was shooting even from 50 meters but it was efective. Try do the same here.

VW-IceFire
04-24-2006, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by georgeo76:
This thread has peaked my interest. So I've done some back of the envelope testing. I set up a flight of 4 Ju88s or 4 He111 and attacked them with Hurricane mkIIb.

findings:

head-on attacks were devastating if you aim for the crew compartment. I was able to take down the bombers w/ one pass about 50% of the time with this method. Once, I got 2 Ju88s w/ one pass this way. (total luck, I wasn't even aiming for the second one).

Overhead and high-side attacks were effective too. I aimed well ahead of the bomber and dead center of his horizontal axis. I hoped to get rounds through the Plexiglases, but wayward bullets would land in the cowling and wing-roots which was cherry as well. Crew kills and engine fires were readily achievable this way.

Flat side attacks worked well too. Since this attack rakes the aircraft it plays to the strengths and weaknesses of the .303. On the one hand, catastrophic damage was very rare. On the other, multiple sources of damage were achievable with engine smoke and fuel leaks commonly resulting from a single pass.

Obviously, the He111 was tougher than the Ju88. However in terms of how many passes they take to kill and where to aim to achieve the most damage, they can be treated the same. The only practical difference was the phenomenal vulnerability of the Ju88 to frontal attacks.

Other things to note are that my convergence was set to 120m. I was keen to avoid defensive fire, taking great care to set up proper attacks. I didn't fire early and bore in, favoring split-second/point blank/precision shots.

There is one crucial problem with your findings. Your method of attack is very different from how the Hurricanes did it in the battle of Britain. The process was pretty simple but suicide in this sim. Hurricanes would approach the bombs from the rear and slightly abover and only a little faster than the bomber in a line astern formation, each raking the bomber from behind in turn. It worked in the BoB but in this sim its a one way ticket to a dead engine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm not sure about that. The stern formation attacks was the RAF's pre-war doctrine for modern fighters to attack bomber formations. They wanted to hit the bombers at maxium range with a spread of .303 fire from all attacking fighters. This along with the Vic formation were used during the Battle of Britain but veteran squadrons quickly dropped them in favour of diving passes, head on squadron attacks, and so forth.

So what georgeo is doing is reminiscent of a RAF squadron in say 11 group for the first few weeks of battle or a squadron in 10 group for most of BoB until late September.

HellToupee
04-24-2006, 10:57 PM
but then try sitting on its six vs diving attacks, requires luck, even head one right into the cogpit at times seems to do nothing. Hell its still very difficult with 4 cannon armed planes like tempests.

Bastables
04-25-2006, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by Pinker15:
In 1939 even 2 smal caliber guns of P11c was enought for polish pilots to bring down He111 and later when they get Hurrys with 12 303 brownings it was more than enougth to bring this bomber in one pass. Sure they was shooting even from 50 meters but it was efective. Try do the same here.

You do know they uparmoured and added more protection to bombers inbetween Polish, france battle of britian and operation barbarrosa? don't you?

You do know that the RAF judged the 303 poor at shooting down planes which is why they went to 2cm hispanios? That british tests them selves show how poor the 303 were at damagng a much lighter constructed bomber

HotelBushranger
04-25-2006, 12:28 AM
You have a large sig http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

panzerd18
04-25-2006, 01:09 AM
The stupid thing in this game is that AI gunners are too good and you cannot very close behind the enemy bombers before your engine is taken out

WOLFMondo
04-25-2006, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by georgeo76:
This thread has peaked my interest. So I've done some back of the envelope testing. I set up a flight of 4 Ju88s or 4 He111 and attacked them with Hurricane mkIIb.

findings:

head-on attacks were devastating if you aim for the crew compartment. I was able to take down the bombers w/ one pass about 50% of the time with this method. Once, I got 2 Ju88s w/ one pass this way. (total luck, I wasn't even aiming for the second one).

Overhead and high-side attacks were effective too. I aimed well ahead of the bomber and dead center of his horizontal axis. I hoped to get rounds through the Plexiglases, but wayward bullets would land in the cowling and wing-roots which was cherry as well. Crew kills and engine fires were readily achievable this way.

Flat side attacks worked well too. Since this attack rakes the aircraft it plays to the strengths and weaknesses of the .303. On the one hand, catastrophic damage was very rare. On the other, multiple sources of damage were achievable with engine smoke and fuel leaks commonly resulting from a single pass.

Obviously, the He111 was tougher than the Ju88. However in terms of how many passes they take to kill and where to aim to achieve the most damage, they can be treated the same. The only practical difference was the phenomenal vulnerability of the Ju88 to frontal attacks.

Other things to note are that my convergence was set to 120m. I was keen to avoid defensive fire, taking great care to set up proper attacks. I didn't fire early and bore in, favoring split-second/point blank/precision shots.

There is one crucial problem with your findings. Your method of attack is very different from how the Hurricanes did it in the battle of Britain. The process was pretty simple but suicide in this sim. Hurricanes would approach the bombs from the rear and slightly abover and only a little faster than the bomber in a line astern formation, each raking the bomber from behind in turn. It worked in the BoB but in this sim its a one way ticket to a dead engine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm not sure about that. The stern formation attacks was the RAF's pre-war doctrine for modern fighters to attack bomber formations. They wanted to hit the bombers at maxium range with a spread of .303 fire from all attacking fighters. This along with the Vic formation were used during the Battle of Britain but veteran squadrons quickly dropped them in favour of diving passes, head on squadron attacks, and so forth.

So what georgeo is doing is reminiscent of a RAF squadron in say 11 group for the first few weeks of battle or a squadron in 10 group for most of BoB until late September. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know some did drop this, while others held the official line and flew by the book. I think it depended on your CO's opinion. The British can be famously stubborn to change there ways even in the face of defeat.

horseback
04-25-2006, 11:48 AM
Bull's eye.

What also has to be taken into consideration is the need to engage the bombers before they dropped their bombs. You rarely had the time or speed advantage to set up an ideal attack; in general, you had a general vector to the target, with what amounted to an educated guess as to their altitude, and you had to engage the bombers before the escorting fighters jumped you.

Having seen the devastation that a string of 250kg bombs dropped on a town or village could do, I would be almost frantic to get at the bastages before they reached an urban area...

Getting upsun and in a superior Eergy condition was a rare luxery for Hurricane pilots in the BoB.

cheers

horseback

georgeo76
04-25-2006, 05:44 PM
Isn't this why the radar was so important? So the Hurris and spits could get into ideal position and be waiting?


Getting upsun and in a superior Eergy condition was a rare luxery for Hurricane pilots in the BoB.

WTE_Galway
04-26-2006, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:

There is one crucial problem with your findings. Your method of attack is very different from how the Hurricanes did it in the battle of Britain. The process was pretty simple but suicide in this sim. Hurricanes would approach the bombs from the rear and slightly abover and only a little faster than the bomber in a line astern formation, each raking the bomber from behind in turn. It worked in the BoB but in this sim its a one way ticket to a dead engine.


Maybe early on .. that was certianly pre-war theory.

However the RAF pilots soon worked out that the he111 only had a single waist gunner so the standard attack eventually became a feint from one side followed by a real attack from the opposite side before the waist gunner had a chance to switch sides.


As far as the original comment goes ..

- a lot of kills were against the obsolete do17 which we do not have in game

- if you fly about 150 metres below a he111 or ju88 in a hurri and then nose up once it is directly overhead and fire into one engine from 20 to 50 metres directly beneath it will go down very quickly

- i still assert the main problem with the .303 in game is not kill ability .. it is the lack of "instant" kills so the damaged limping bomber spilling fuel is taken out later by someone else with bigger guns before you get your points for it

p1ngu666
04-26-2006, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by georgeo76:
Isn't this why the radar was so important? So the Hurris and spits could get into ideal position and be waiting?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Getting upsun and in a superior Eergy condition was a rare luxery for Hurricane pilots in the BoB. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the problem is, where your setup and waiting, might not be where the bombers are going, they often changed course to confuse the defenders, or atleast spread out the fighters.

remmber the aircraft would be all doing about 200mph, so the distances could quickly get big, or small..

WTE_Galway
05-06-2006, 05:37 AM
Just out of curiosity I ran a couple of quick missions against single ace ju88's and single ace he111's in a 1938 hurri

No icons, cockpit on, but externals and minimap allowed.

For anyone interested three sequential tracks flown one after the other are linked below. The first two tracks are quick kills with the crew bailing.

The larger track is the worst case scenario for a hurri, a long extended tail chase where the low top speed of the 38 hurri becomes a major disadvantage. Eventually the bomber goes down and the hurri survives albeit without a usable rudder .. which made landing a touch interesting.

I stick to my original contention that the .303 guns are not underpowered providing you do not need an instant kill for online points.


http://www-personal.une.edu.au/~gfitzpat/tracks.zip (http://www-personal.une.edu.au/%7Egfitzpat/tracks.zip)

horseback
05-06-2006, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by georgeo76:
Isn't this why the radar was so important? So the Hurris and spits could get into ideal position and be waiting?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Getting upsun and in a superior Eergy condition was a rare luxery for Hurricane pilots in the BoB. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That was the theory, but do the math. The radar was short ranged and not very accurate by any standard; remember, that was the earliest operational system in the world at the time. Even assuming that the radar could detect targets more than 100 miles off, curvature of the earth and so on means that targets flying less than 10,000ft are going to be at least partially masked by ground clutter at extreme ranges.

The approaching aircraft are approaching at around 200 mph groundspeed, and the operators eventually figured out how to make educated guesses as to numbers, altitude, course and speed, and they didn't report to HQ until they had those figures by telephone; five minutes at a minimum, triple that in the early stages, or when the weather was not optimum.

At this point, the squadron was assigned to the task, alerted, and given a general vector and altitude. How long does it take to get 12 men into their aircraft and into the air? At a grass field, a/c could take off in vics of three, at a paved field, probably singly.

The Hurri was not a noted climber, either. Getting up to 15,000 ft on the right vector would be a time consuming process, during which the enemy formation could change course or just lower their noses to pick up speed in a shallow dive to 3000 or 4000m. Even a sunny day in Britain usually has clouds.

If the German bomber formation is detected less than 100 miles from the Channel, and the bombers are going 200 mph, how much time do the British have to get a formation into the air to block their path? 10-15 minutes in the detection, analysis and reproting stage, five minutes for the controllers to determine the best unit for the task and alert them, five minutes to get the formation into the air and organized, flying in the right general direction, and how long to get up to altitude and adjust for a successful intercept?--During which time the bombers will have reached the southern coast of England.

From that point, you will have at most, the course, speed and altitude that the German formation was flying when they crossed over the radar picket line. An educated guess would give the squadron or formation leader a clue as to the intended target, and he would head there at best speed. If he was lucky, he would see them below him.

If he was not...

cheers

horseback

Lordbutter4
05-08-2006, 07:22 PM
There are many british reports of the germans almost always being higher and having advantage. Remember most Hurricanes would be vectored into the bombers, while 109's would fly cover. Thus the 109's would be above. Also lets stick to the argument here. Try using the Hurricane 12 gun against an emil. The emil still takes far too many hits for not being as heavily armored. A real hurt is there are no early model 109's to fight with. I think the rear plate (panzerglass) was added to help with the 303's from the rear. While they did get outdated, using them against planes they shouldnt be outdated against still take too many hits. Thats the problem. Even try a simple bi-plane. Ive hit cockpits almost everytime on them and still no pilot kill. Bullets should pass right through there with ease.

Gandy_Katarin
05-13-2006, 04:19 PM
The other week i found it not that hard to down aircraft in the Hurri 2b. It was a historic server i cant remember the name because i dont play online to often. Anyway the mission was to protect a convoy from the luftwaffe. I had the hurri 2b and scrabled quickly, i hung around my airfield till i felt i was at a safe altitude and then made for the convoy. I found a he111 heading home from the convoy about 3000feet below escorted by a 109. I dived for the bomber straight past the escort and aimed for his left wing. I started firing early and must have put 400/500 rounds directly in his fuel tank becuase he went down in flames. Next the 109 decided to drop on me, i turned into him and met him head on, i used a little rudder to try and throw his aim off and it worked. I gave him a 3 second burst and i took out his engine. I swung around and fired on him more disabling his elavator. With no power or control he hit the water.

In a historic server i found the hurris turn and nimbleness made up for its lack of punch and that having a chance to set up my attack payed off.

Viper2005_
05-13-2006, 09:21 PM
Machine guns don't do well in IL2 because our aeroplanes are simple and lack many of the systems which ball rounds are good at destroying.

For example, IL2 doesn't model coolant systems; whilst IRL a single round to the radiator would bring down a 109 or a Spitfire within about 15 minutes, in IL2 you can shoot the radiators without effect.

Given more accurate systems modelling, you'd see machine guns being far more effective. You'd also see far more fights without obvious victors. For example, a lucky shot into a Spitfire's pneumatic system would stop its guns from firing (whilst also denying the pilot the use of his flaps and brakes).

Of course, accurate systems modelling would also mean that many pilots got themselves into trouble without assistance from the enemy...

Ugly_Kid
05-14-2006, 01:04 AM
You are assuming that Dowding spread or alike is modeled. If you make one test in QB you will notice it is not. Simply by adjusting guns to 100 m will give you a sideways convergence in 100 m. Putting a larger figure gives you a larger distance. The dowdings tactics were intended for formations attacking formations this means that a formation of hurricanes manouvers as a tight formation and the leader aims and everybody fires a broadside. The convergence was set to that bullets fly pretty straight with the aim of the leader. For this reason RAF put also a lot of effort for very tight formation flying - very soon during the Battle of France they noticed that it tight formations and manouvering as a one formation in a fighter to fighter fight was a certain recipe to a suicide.

So the claimed inefficiency of the guns in game is not due to the "Dowding spread" - it is due to the general modeling of the machine guns as useless (unless they shoot green plasma).

HotelBushranger
05-14-2006, 01:27 AM
I'm not sure. I have racked up kills in a Gladiator against Go-229s, Ki-84s, La5s etc because the guns are accurate, and fire when I where I want them to. When they are converged properly like on the Glad, they are actually very good guns and IMO pretty close to a RL .303

Aaron_GT
05-14-2006, 02:04 AM
The Hurricane and Spitfire hadn't even entered service before the RAF had issued specifications for a fighter armed with 4 or more cannon. Supermarine and Hawker both suggested versions of their aircraft to fulfill this. At around the same time the Tornado/Typhoon specification called for 12 MGs but AFAIK the RAF asked for investigations into the use of 4 cannon instead in around 1939. This suggests (given the typical lead time on development) that the RAF expected the usefullness of rifle-calibre MG armed aircraft to have waned by around 1904-1.

WTE_Galway
05-14-2006, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
The Hurricane and Spitfire hadn't even entered service before the RAF had issued specifications for a fighter armed with 4 or more cannon. Supermarine and Hawker both suggested versions of their aircraft to fulfill this. At around the same time the Tornado/Typhoon specification called for 12 MGs but AFAIK the RAF asked for investigations into the use of 4 cannon instead in around 1939. This suggests (given the typical lead time on development) that the RAF expected the usefullness of rifle-calibre MG armed aircraft to have waned by around 1904-1.

i think part of the reason for moving to cannon was a perceived threat that never eventuated of a new generation of high level german heavy bombers

at the time of the BoB the machine gun was seen as a better option against fighters due to the relatively low ROF of contemporary cannon

leitmotiv
05-15-2006, 06:51 PM
The best way to use the .303 Brownings is to set the convergence at 100 meters, as the English fighter pilots learned to do in 1940, and fire at close range. This will wreck the 109 or 110 and do severe damage to a Heinkel---if you are lucky. There is a tendency among some players to shoot at fantastically long ranges. This accounts for the ineffectiveness of some guns. Erich Hartmann said shoot when the target fills your windscreen.

ColHut
05-19-2006, 08:14 AM
In my humble opinion - I am pretty sure that the Dowding spread is not in the game at all. You can only set convergence in the horizontal plane. The Dowding spead created a fire pattern in both vertical and horizontal set to about 400 yards as I recall.

- The British standard attack was not from directly to the rear but a 30 degree offset.

- .303s suffer from the damage model. Far worse against fighters than bombers. Try rear attacks at 200 yards on a Macchi 202 with a Hurri IIb - it is painful! Great against Zeroes though!


my 2 cents worth

HotelBushranger
05-19-2006, 10:24 PM
Hmmm....yesterday I did a target practice flight, just in QMB with me in an I-18 Type 18 against 16 SB's. The idea was to get real real close, I'm talking like 0.07 away. Just little taps on the trigger would bring them down. And thats with 4 7.62s. Then I did a Hurricane Mk 1. It actually took longer to bring them down. There were hundreds of hits in the pilot area, engines etc but no joy. I once got a double flamer from a longish range shot 300-400m away but thats about it.
I wonder if its the actual ammunition used, i.e. Rata bullets were AP and Hurricane were just lead, or if the Browning guns actually have something wrong with them.

Ugly_Kid
05-20-2006, 01:01 AM
Well, the green plasma is completely own chapter.

Would be fun to have finnish Hawk in the game, which they pimped with soviet guns and then let them taste their own medicine http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

JG53Frankyboy
05-20-2006, 02:24 AM
wait till the Ki-27 will be available and you will fly Nomonhan missions of summer 1939 agaisnt I-16Typ18 and I-153 M-62 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

the 4 SchKas are working like MK108 on the unprotectet japanese planes.
but to shoot down one of the Polikarpows, well , be patient !

fortunatly the SB2s are burning quite easy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kwiatos
05-20-2006, 04:44 AM
Not only small caliber in game are weak. More problem is that DM of many planes are poor. These was still not fixed from beggining. I saw too many stupid situation when planes after got many hits ( 20mm, 0,50cal) still fly and fight like nothing happened.
The most funny situations were when 1 single bomber like Ju88 was attaked by many fighters ( Spits, Hurricanes) then Ju88 was alived and enemy fighters was down. Actually attack in Hurricane with 8x0,303 against 1 single Ju88 is almost suside. If in 1940 in BOB was the same situation like in game then only german bombers would beat all RAF fighters without help escort.

KG26_Alpha
05-20-2006, 05:50 AM
lol.....in 1940 you stood the reality if getting killed if you flew a fighter like you do in IL2, thats the problem you create by being able to click n fly.

Use the correct tactics as discussed in this thread and theres no problem. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

HellToupee
05-25-2006, 08:24 AM
Use the correct tactics as discussed in this thread and theres no problem. Wink2


like what? learn super human aim to account for the awful spread and ineffective hits. When u pour half ur ammo into a 109 and he keeps fighting as if nothing happened what then, ask him to bail over chat as its not sporting?

Hell i even had zeros take many many hits and keep on going.

WOLFMondo
05-25-2006, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by horseback:

From that point, you will have at most, the course, speed and altitude that the German formation was flying when they crossed over the radar picket line. An educated guess would give the squadron or formation leader a clue as to the intended target, and he would head there at best speed. If he was lucky, he would see them below him.


This is where Park and Dowdings analogue intranet comes into play. Not only were the radar stations directly linked to the fighter squadrons and Fighter command itself, there were thousands of observers all around the UK who would also plot courses, estimate altitude and direction and feed this directly to Fighter command and the squadrons in the air.

Even if the Luftwaffles double backed they would still be seen from the ground.

Lets not forget that the one real strength the British had, was there communication system.

KG26_Alpha
05-27-2006, 11:45 AM
like what? learn super human aim to account for the awful spread and ineffective hits. When u pour half ur ammo into a 109 and he keeps fighting as if nothing happened what then, ask him to bail over chat as its not sporting?

Hell i even had zeros take many many hits and keep on going.


If you read this thread near the beginning theres a Hurri pilot account of his attack on a He111, he expended all his ammo in 2 passes, 1st was headon 2nd was a quater attack, also note his attack distances, these planes were not bomber formation killers you cannot expect to take down loads of fighters and bombers in one attack, this is the problem you need to fly realistically with the Hurri Mk1 these things were up n down like yoyo's rearming.

I dont fly dogfight servers only coop missions so if theres a mismatch or wrong role for the Hurricane MK1 then thats the servers fault.

jwstox
05-27-2006, 05:12 PM
You have got to be kidding me... you are COMPLAINING about the guns on the Spit and Hurri??? The Spit FM, DM and guns (particularly the 25 pounder), have turned this entire sim into a noob arcade game IMHO. The US aircraft have been effectively neutered. Sim, indeed.

HotelBushranger
05-27-2006, 09:37 PM
How 'particularly the 25 pounder'? They have the exact same guns as the Spit Mk VII and Mk IX.

And if you looked, my initial post was on the calibration of the guns, not how much damage they do.

Oh and welcome to the forums http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hastatus
05-28-2006, 05:44 PM
Most pilots did not even score kills in any given mission.

You expect 303s to saw wings off because of all the 1944-45 planes you used to fly in IL-2 with 20-30mm cannons.

Fire at 100 yards which is what they did in BoB and you will do fine.

In other words, learn to shoot.

Btw, the "Dowding spread" was a 400 yard convergence, which was thrown out by experienced RAF pilots, who had their guns set to 150 yards.

...and just because the enemy fighter doesnt explode in a ball of fire (which they seldom did) doesnt mean it wont eventually go down. Coolant or oil leaks, pilot wound, fuel tank hit ect, would often bring it down. You guys all expect it to "saw a wing off" every time you hit.

Well, thats a bunch of fantasy, fueled by your desire to get instant gratification, because thats what you get in other arcade games.

WTE_Galway
05-28-2006, 06:49 PM
i have an account somewhere from a BoB pilot whose hurricane was hit by four 15mm cannon shells one of which "made a complete mess of his left foot" and another took out his reserve tank. The guy kept fighting for sometime before eventually bailing (presumably because the reserve tank by now was on fire!!) .

In another account in the same book a different hurricane pilot took a single MG hit from a bomber into his radiator and the plane "erupted into a ball of flame" and he barely got out.

Inconsistent ? Yea .. but thats how it was in real life.

btw .. the RAF armament experts concluded fairly early in the BoB that even a slight increase in armor in the german bombers would have rendered the .303 totally ineffective, hence the move toward 20mm cannon.

HellToupee
05-28-2006, 07:38 PM
In other words, learn to shoot.

most people can probly shoot better than most RL pilots did considering the practice we get, i think average was like 4 % or something, in this game 4% is pretty poor.

HotelBushranger
05-29-2006, 03:31 AM
Posted by Hastatus

Well not really mate, I rarely fly 1944 planes, much less ones with cannons! (Mostly Mustang).

And if you bothered to read my initial post, it was about the convergence, not DM. I'm happy with how they are at the moment, all I want, being the creator of this thread, is to have the guns converged like most wing guns (P-40, P-51), as per real life!