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View Full Version : How many of you know and use air combat techniques?



VW-IceFire
08-04-2007, 05:14 PM
Simple poll question really...but I'm really interested to know. When I started out doing the whole air combat thing with Aces of the Pacific the manual had diagrams and descriptions of dozens of different moves. How to attack a bomber, how to pull a lead, true, and lag pursuit. What a Thatch Weave was, what a Split S was, what a High Yo Yo was. More to the point...I think about and use these techniques while I'm flying online with success when I employ them at the right moments.

I know allot of people complain about their aircraft not being modeled properly and I can't help but wonder if people are not getting the most out of their plane. I do see some people using the tried and true techniques (that really work no matter if its a modern jet or a WWI biplane) but I see most people online not having much of an idea of what to do. For all of the discussions we have about aircraft performance...why so few about techniques and moves that help you get the most of a given aircraft.

So I'm curious.

VW-IceFire
08-04-2007, 05:14 PM
Simple poll question really...but I'm really interested to know. When I started out doing the whole air combat thing with Aces of the Pacific the manual had diagrams and descriptions of dozens of different moves. How to attack a bomber, how to pull a lead, true, and lag pursuit. What a Thatch Weave was, what a Split S was, what a High Yo Yo was. More to the point...I think about and use these techniques while I'm flying online with success when I employ them at the right moments.

I know allot of people complain about their aircraft not being modeled properly and I can't help but wonder if people are not getting the most out of their plane. I do see some people using the tried and true techniques (that really work no matter if its a modern jet or a WWI biplane) but I see most people online not having much of an idea of what to do. For all of the discussions we have about aircraft performance...why so few about techniques and moves that help you get the most of a given aircraft.

So I'm curious.

Taylortony
08-04-2007, 05:46 PM
u mean like squeezing like your having a poo in High G turns?

Stew278
08-04-2007, 05:58 PM
I know the more basic ones like split S, scissors, Immelman, etc. I don't think I use them properly when flying online though because I usually get whooped pretty badly in air to air combat. I never really had the ambition to read that part of the manual in detail.

SeaFireLIV
08-04-2007, 06:11 PM
I know some of the basic moves, like the scissors. i have noticed that do the scissors right and it actually works in game. I also often try the barrel-roll. Others I`m not so up on, but get the impression that I accidentally do them, like the `wing over`, when I go up and instead of going inverted I use the rudder, flaps to try and wing over to the left or right and down upon my oponent. When that works I often find myself behind him, to my surprise.

I really need to retrain on this stuff.

Klemm.co
08-04-2007, 06:21 PM
I actually know most of the maneuvers, but I learned them by myself, intuitively developing them as my flight experience and flight hours grew. I also think that you can not use most of the maneuvers in their original form, performed to spec. There always has to and will be some variations and couplings of maneuvers to win the fight. It also depends on how willingly one is to commit himself to certain maneuvers and the ability to perform them correctly. (In my early days of online fighting, I often pulled off maneuvers and shots that were really crazy but I succeded with the luck of the unkowing (Noob http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ).)
I really prefer the method of learning the moves by myself instead of reading books or tutorials. I can memorize them better then, don't have to think about what move to do next, just doing it, all the while knowing intuitively what to do next.

M_Gunz
08-04-2007, 06:44 PM
Your talking about BCM's and ACM's? Or putting those together into tactics along with SA?

carguy_
08-04-2007, 06:55 PM
Oh, using daily without having to think about it.Some don`t work like they should though,that`s why the game can be frustrating at times.You do what you`ve been said to but all you do is make your situation even worse.

3.JG51_BigBear
08-04-2007, 07:29 PM
Been playing sims long enough that I've picked up most of them. I was always frustrated with Janes WW2 Fighters and CFS 2 because the tactics that I had read about in books just never seemed to work as advertised. Real world tactics were also hit or miss in the original version of IL2. FB got better, AEP was a nightmare, but the latest versions of IL2 make using real world tactics worth it (not always, but most of the time http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif)

Of all the sims I've played BOB 2 is actually the best in terms of real manuevers/tactics working the way they should.

VMF-214_HaVoK
08-04-2007, 07:32 PM
Number 1 here...thats why I pwn! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

VW-IceFire
08-04-2007, 07:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Your talking about BCM's and ACM's? Or putting those together into tactics along with SA? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Talking about the sum total of everything.

PF_Coastie
08-04-2007, 08:43 PM
I know all of them, but I never actually think about them while I am in combat. I am a seat of the pants pilot and every situation is different.

The biggest thing is absolutely knowing every limitation of the AC you are in and the plane you are engaged with. Then its just a matter of exploiting your strengths and his weaknesses.

VW-IceFire
08-04-2007, 08:47 PM
Thinking about them is another matter in my mind...I'll find myself doing a Split S or a Yo Yo without much thinking so much as just reacting to the situation.

ImMoreBetter
08-04-2007, 08:48 PM
I know a few, but haven't gotten a good chance to use them yet. I've been too busy reaching for Ctrl E.

BBB_Hyperion
08-04-2007, 08:57 PM
I just wait until something is near the sight and press the trigger. Granted sometimes i even take off for that.

bdc_p
08-04-2007, 09:16 PM
never heard of them... i feel left out.

no wonder i suck

foxyboy1964
08-04-2007, 10:01 PM
Number 2 for me. Back in the 80's I played a game called Falcon and the manual that came with it explained some ACM. I would like to know more, if someone could maybe link me to a good site.

stalkervision
08-04-2007, 10:27 PM
a really good defensive air combat manauver for noob pilots is to paint a big red circle on ones plane from the skins forum and wiggle ones butt around with the rudder to attract some enemy pilots that have decided to desert at that moment to the other side. This often happens. Many enemy pilots often decide also that seeing your a noob pilot they will come to help protect you..


If you don't like the red circle suggestion and it seems just a bit silly just paint the words NOOB in big bright letters on the wings and side of your plane. This is the same strategy everyone uses to mail fragile parcels in the mail and works just as well..

Korolov1986
08-04-2007, 10:57 PM
I "know" some maneuvers, but damned if I know whether I'm using them or not.

When in a fight, I find myself just thinking about how to make my weapons hit. How I get there - no idea.

crucislancer
08-05-2007, 01:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bdc_p:
never heard of them... i feel left out.

no wonder i suck </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't feel bad, I know some and I still suck.

You could know all the right moves, but it won't do you any good when someone knows how to counter them.

I'll use moves like Split-s consciously, other moves like scissors I just find myself in.

mandrill7
08-05-2007, 08:37 AM
I bought an old manual for CFS1, which has a lot of the techniques and I also read up on them at Airwarfare. I use some of them a lot, like the scissors and hi yoyo (to avoid the overshoot). But in offline flying, it's basically a game of get on the AI's 6 and try and stay there. And so a lot of the refinements go out the window.

I pick up some stuff from AI actually, like rolling inverted to watch stuff below you before you pick a target and dive down.

R_Target
08-05-2007, 08:51 AM
Some of them come naturally, and others you have to learn. Overhead and high side gunnery runs take practice. For me at least.

Choctaw111
08-05-2007, 09:24 AM
Knowing them definitely helps, but sometimes I catch myself doing something silly and wind up into a bad situation. That is where I find myself doing more practice to engrave those techniques more into my mind.

Platypus_1.JaVA
08-05-2007, 09:57 AM
I know all tekniks, not hard, just follow the colored pointers in the game, not hard, easy! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

slipBall
08-05-2007, 10:01 AM
I know them, and know when to use them. Without them, I would not be much of a combat pilot....agree, not enough talk on this, would like to see a sticky for all new to learn or study

jimDG
08-05-2007, 10:18 AM
Air combat techniques are illustrations of basic principles, and the basic principles extend beyond the few illustrations called air combat techniques.
So, memorizing air-combat techniques in itself is fairly useless.
The only clear cut maneuver I find myself doing consciously is high yo-yos.
The rest stems naturally from the circumstances of the dogfight itself (scissors, corkscrews etc.)

The only air combat maneuver I consciously don't use is hammerheads (I would never present a zero angle shot to anyone http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TheCrux
08-05-2007, 10:35 AM
I know most of them, use a few...or should I say, know how to perform them, even if some of the actual maneuvers don't always get performed per spec due to dynamics/control issues.

Biggest issue for me is timing, especially when it involves defensive moves: Even with TIR, it's tough to fly and check my tail, and therefore difficult to judge his distance from me and firing solution he may have, as well as his reactions to my moves. Timing can make the difference between me succesfully evading ( and possibly gaining an advantage over my erstwhile pursuer ) or merely showing my intentions too early, making it easier for him to second guess my moves and counter them. At worst, he gets an nice aerobatics display before he shoots me down. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

TheCrux
08-05-2007, 10:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jimDG:The only clear cut maneuver I find myself doing consciously is high yo-yos. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That seems to be my most useful maneuver I've learned, and also the one I do more or less by rote. Definately the best "bang for the buck". Prior to that, I would lose much speed trying to do a flat turn after a merge that I would throw away any advantage I ever had. I like using it for hitting slower opponents again and again from above. I haven't found much use for the low yo-yo though.

Tachyon1000
08-05-2007, 11:02 AM
One of the major problems for me is that I can look at all the diagrams that I like but that doesn't tell me how I need to control the aircraft to produce that maneuver. Take the hi yoyo. I've seen it diagrammed. I've heard the description. Still have no idea which way one is supposed to roll at what point in the turn or what it means to put one's vector somewhere or else. Or the vector roll. Or even effective scissoring.

What would be great is if someone could put together an in-game video of the a/c executing the maneuver from the outside synced with another video on the inside of the cockpit of the actual controls being moved.

diomedes33
08-05-2007, 11:18 AM
Actually the most useful thing I've learned is when you want to follow someone in a turn, you don't try to line them up in the gunsight (i.e. lag pursuit).

I've spent a great deal of time learning to use high/low yo-yo's, vector rolls, rolling/flat scissors, defensive spirals, lead turns, etc ... However, I saw the biggest difference in shot opportunities with playing with lead/pure/lag pursuits.

Although, when I successfully pull off a vector roll, I do giggle a bit.

K_Freddie
08-05-2007, 11:22 AM
Ahh! ...names for this.. names for that..
Encylclopedias have been written about air-combat, all come to nought, when you have to stay alive, to fight another day.

I only come to know a few names and will probably never know the rest, but that doesn't bother me
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

stalkervision
08-05-2007, 11:27 AM
You all may want to hear this unusual actual acm trick I heared a fighter pilot tell..

He said he "trimmed" his plane to do a constant side slip in the combat zone. That way anyone shooting at him from behind would miss.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Apparently it worked pretty well from what he said..

3.JG51_BigBear
08-05-2007, 11:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
You all may want to hear this unusual actual acm trick I heared a fighter pilot tell..

He said he "trimmed" his plane to do a constant side slip in the combat zone. That way anyone shooting at him from behind would miss.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Apparently it worked pretty well from what he said.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very hard to hit a target pointed in one direction but moving in another.

crucislancer
08-05-2007, 11:45 AM
I've been reading "In Pursuit" lately, it's a wealth of knowledge.

In Pursuit (http://web.comhem.se/%7Eu85627360/)

I've seen a few maneuvers that I've used in the past, but never really made a conscious effort to try, it just seemed like the right thing to do at the time. Of course, a lot of that goes out the window when I'm getting shot at by an ace.

TheCrux
08-05-2007, 11:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tachyon1000:Take the hi yoyo. I've seen it diagrammed. I've heard the description. Still have no idea which way one is supposed to roll at what point in the turn </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The way I was taught ( via an online flight school ) is you pull up as though you're going to loop, add ailerons to roll, but not inverted, about 110 degrees, and as you keep pulling up and banking, sort of let the A/C slide back down on its wing as you relax the elevators and roll toward level again. Watch your heading, as you'll now want to be flying 180 degrees from your original course. Use small rudder inputs to help guide you back on course. What helps is using wingtip smoke to ID where you were, or make note of ground objects.

han freak solo
08-05-2007, 12:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crucislancer:
I've been reading "In Pursuit" lately, it's a wealth of knowledge.

In Pursuit (http://web.comhem.se/%7Eu85627360/)

I've seen a few maneuvers that I've used in the past, but never really made a conscious effort to try, it just seemed like the right thing to do at the time. Of course, a lot of that goes out the window when I'm getting shot at by an ace. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for that link. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif I had something like that a while back but lost it. Like someone else mentioned I first saw the basic combat maneuvers in my CFS1 manual when I played that game which was my 1st combat flight sim.

CMHQ_Rikimaru
08-05-2007, 12:48 PM
Well, Ive learned all maneuvers, i use them by instinct, by I use more maneuvers that ive made by mself.
To simply explain high yoyo : U want to increase SEPARATION between u and opponent, so u can cut across the turn, so the only thing u need to do, i s to fly out of his turn , and when u think that separation is enough, u can go and try a shoot. But u have to remember, more time u give him, more angles u will loose, and harder will be the shoot.

I make new maneuvers by myself, but only for FW190, since i know this plane very very well, i analyze a lot of tables, etc, and then try to make maneuvers to gain energy superiority.

In Pursuit is a great help for this! There u can learn, how u should zoom climb, thats very important, i wont say it by myself what angle it should be, those who want to learn will search by themself.

But to be honest, after a time i see that most important is to stick with others, dont engage plane that is already engaged by ur mate, shooting skills, and the plane. If u have to use all those tricks, that means uve scr*wed something up, thats why u need to use them. Good fighter pilot wont have to use them, sometimes they just save ur live, when u do something wrong.

crucislancer
08-05-2007, 02:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by han freak solo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crucislancer:
I've been reading "In Pursuit" lately, it's a wealth of knowledge.

In Pursuit (http://web.comhem.se/%7Eu85627360/)

I've seen a few maneuvers that I've used in the past, but never really made a conscious effort to try, it just seemed like the right thing to do at the time. Of course, a lot of that goes out the window when I'm getting shot at by an ace. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for that link. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif I had something like that a while back but lost it. Like someone else mentioned I first saw the basic combat maneuvers in my CFS1 manual when I played that game which was my 1st combat flight sim. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No problem.

I never picked up CFS1, but I still have EAW, the manual for that game has a boatload of info as well, and the disc has a html "school" which is very helpful.

Blood_Splat
08-05-2007, 02:15 PM
I usually do the flying dragon kick.

Airmail109
08-05-2007, 03:30 PM
Il2 is like a game of chess.

Its all about tactics.

Energy tactics being important. The idea being:

1) To get into a firing position bleeding as little energy as possible.
2) To bleed less energy than your opponent
3) To keep your speed and potential energy as high as you possibly can
4) To make your oponent bleed more energy than you, forcing their hand so that you can dicate the fight.

f.ip2
08-05-2007, 04:11 PM
i read about the moves many years ago.

right now i find it hard to use them sometimes because compared to a real plane you cannot just move your head so nicely while you fly.

view of vision is the main issue for me. the pad look is a possible solution to this here but it does not give you the same freedom compared to sitting in a plane on your own.


@ mandrill7

is that manual a PDF or hard copy?

claas

VW-IceFire
08-05-2007, 09:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tachyon1000:
One of the major problems for me is that I can look at all the diagrams that I like but that doesn't tell me how I need to control the aircraft to produce that maneuver. Take the hi yoyo. I've seen it diagrammed. I've heard the description. Still have no idea which way one is supposed to roll at what point in the turn or what it means to put one's vector somewhere or else. Or the vector roll. Or even effective scissoring.

What would be great is if someone could put together an in-game video of the a/c executing the maneuver from the outside synced with another video on the inside of the cockpit of the actual controls being moved. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This might help:

http://www.history.com/minisite.do?content_type=Minisit...rder=2&mini_id=51833 (http://www.history.com/minisite.do?content_type=Minisite_Video_Clips&content_type_id=51912&display_order=3&sub_display_order=2&mini_id=51833)

The videos are pretty useful and are a very solid illustration of how most of the moves are done in a general sort of way. They use jets for most of the examples but the moves are essentially universal.

I do have to say that aside from the High Yo You the Lag Pursuit is one of the best tactics I learned for flying planes like the Mustang and FW190. It requires a tiny bit of extra patience and but pays off in a big way.

Rammjaeger
08-06-2007, 03:29 AM
I only use the most basic maneuvers. Split-S, Immelmann extensively (to carry out BnZ attack, avoid such an attack etc.). Sometimes scissors to evade the attacker (I don't like that maneuver because I end up being low + slow). Yo-yo and barrel roll attack when I want to avoid a turnfight. I usually do a barrel roll before landing to slow down.

I don't use any particular tactics against bombers, just attack from 6 o'clock and behind. I never do the Hammerhead, I think it's too hazardous and doesn't make much sense anyway.

Viper2005_
08-06-2007, 04:28 AM
I know a few tricks. Mostly I find I'm using lead/lag pursuits, high/low yo-yos and scissors when it all goes wrong. Sometimes I even win a scissors fight.

However, with the exception of the pursuit techniques I try to avoid using them since the objective of the exercise is to kill the other guy, not to get into a dogfight with him and display my (lack of) flying skill.

rnzoli
08-06-2007, 05:04 AM
Having a really great amount of manouvers, the problem is rather prioritizing among them, what to apply and when.

This excellent 1-hour training video has helped me a great deal to realize, that the better I make my planning and engagement setup (geometry, energy budget etc.), the less "tricks" I need during the actual engagement:

http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=1993928076381957728&hl=de

More complicated manouvers are needed proportionally with the amount of trouble I got into, when my exit window has diminished already.

han freak solo
08-06-2007, 06:51 AM
For us offliners, the team maneuvers are just not going to happen. Your wingman will stick by you or attack if you tell him to, but there is no chance for something like the Thatch Weave.

My learning curve has plateaued because of that, plus the fact I just started simming again for the 1st time in many months.

Ernst_Rohr
08-07-2007, 08:46 AM
I try to use ACM, its just a matter of luck as to if I actually pull it off or not. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I do use the high yo-you quite a bit, especially in high power climbs to cut a turn. Got in the habit of using it flying the Ki-84, but I tend to flip onto my back to keep the target in sight.

I seem to do pretty well in offensive ACM, defensive ACM on the other hand, I pretty much suck at. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

TgD Thunderbolt56
08-07-2007, 08:56 AM
Know most...use some.

Insuber
08-07-2007, 12:14 PM
I'm not a superexpert but after 6 yrs of online IL2 fights I managed to retain some effective tactics.

Apart from the defensive barrel roll which worked very well in FB, and not (misteriously) in more recent patches, I use often the scissors when flying the FW190, to take advantage of it's excellent roll rate. This gets me often out of troubles.

Among my favourites when you have a slight energy advantage is the spiral climb: it yields often an exhilarating victory.
Regards,
Insuber

StellarRat
08-07-2007, 01:24 PM
When I'm flying the things I think of are: shooting the bad guy, energy retention and trying to figure out if anyone is closing on my six. Lately, I've gotten smarter about looking around for bad guys BEFORE I dive in to attack.

WeedEater9p
08-07-2007, 02:01 PM
I usually don't think of doing maneuvers. I think of how I can get on the bandit's tail. I do find myself doing many of the BFM by habit and instinct.

f.ip2
08-08-2007, 04:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">VW-IceFire </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

nice video clips, do you know the game they used or is this a straight CG production?

claas