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View Full Version : Why is the Ki-84 held in such low regard?



Doug_Thompson
05-08-2005, 12:49 AM
Just curious, having seen several posts in which people prefer the Tony.

LEBillfish
05-08-2005, 01:01 AM
It's not, it just took on a stigma as being "uber" a while back....Now I believe simply a sour grapes thing with those that fly allied.

For myself I simply do not care for the late war planes....Mid to early my preferance as times were changing...No longer was it turn and burn with zoom and boom mixed.......As folks had learned speed, power, and quick single pass attacks was what really was getting kills so designs changed to accomodate that.

Zoom and boom....Knock out punches in a second...Don't get me wrong, that's smart, the way to go.....Otherwise the Dr1 would be king. But I like it where you have to struggle to turn, to get and stay on an opponents 6...and where skill and tactics rulled the day, just not seeing them first.

So for many late war planes start to detract from the "Dogfighting" skills that were required. So 43 and before simply more fun for many.

EnGaurde
05-08-2005, 02:25 AM
its a pet hate of mine.

its as if nothing other than the Big Three: P51, F4U and P47 can be effective, dangerous aircraft.

many times have i laughed out loud at fools who have written me off for flying the Ki84, when a quick check on the player list revealed all manner of F4U, Spits and Mustangs. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

If anything japanese is dangerous, this childish 8 yr old mindset name calling appears. To many, japanese aircraft are meant to be slow, meant to be unarmoured and meant to be easy to get away from. Seeing the Ki84 is as close to western ideas of fighter aircraft as can be, this can upset many.

I believe its due to one major thing: immaturity. Im sure if older players, as in 20s up, were in this sim alone, it would be accepted as the valid aircraft it is. Instead the very young players, fancying themselves as something of online experts and really going for this notion of its not fair unless im winning, instantly deride the Ki84 with this "n00b" label despite flying something even more superior, the p51 or e.g.

The japanese apparently werent meant to have fast tougher aircraft, and the schoolchild community has christened it "uber" despite being generally slightly inferior to all the big named allied airraft if you look really closely.

i ignore them, frankly. And i laugh heartily at them when i see the usual prejudice come spewing forth.

Ignorance is rife, they prove. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

I fly the Ki84 as a rule whenever its on a map.

And i derive great, great joy at jamming that plane up the **** of anyone on the map that would complain about it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Dengue.ZA
05-08-2005, 02:53 AM
I fly the Ki84 as a rule whenever its on a map.

Me too. According to the game, the Ki-84 was the best all-round fighter of the war. Its easy to fly, doesn't require a great deal of finesse, and has big, big guns.

I'm happy to take advantage of that.

Finkeren
05-08-2005, 03:09 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
For myself I simply do not care for the late war planes....Mid to early my preferance as times were changing...No longer was it turn and burn with zoom and boom mixed.......As folks had learned speed, power, and quick single pass attacks was what really was getting kills so designs changed to accomodate that.


Soooooo Amen http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

ruf9ii
05-08-2005, 04:50 AM
i think people think its overrated because they get owned quicker flying against them than anything else, where as if they were flying against something else they would have just taken longer to die http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

the ki84 has been banned in my squad because of its 'l33tness' and i think this is unfortunate because on the other hand the spit mk9e is allowed (if not favoured). in my opinion, (and ive pointed this out many a time) the spit 9 is a far superious fighter than the ki84. the only area lacking is in fire power, but not by much in any case.

EnGaurde
05-08-2005, 04:59 AM
the spit 9 is a far superious fighter than the ki84

spot on.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

the Ki84 is actually nothing special, if you fly late war allied regularly.

it can handle allied aircraft better than any other japanese plane.

That, is its crime.

stansdds
05-08-2005, 05:37 AM
The real Ki-84's were a pretty even match with late war Allied aircraft, so in the hands of a skilled pilot it could be a deadly adversary.

Aero_Shodanjo
05-08-2005, 05:56 AM
I just love controversional planes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Uberplane in what department esp compared to - say - a Mustang?

Speed? its max speed in game is only around 640 kph. The Mustang has 700+kph.

Altitude? Cant take it more than 6000m without a serious performance loss. A P-51 is a king at and above 6000m

Range? Oh c'mon now... Is that matter in this sim?

Armament? The 1A has 2x12,7mm + 2x20mm. 1B version has 4x20mm. "A few" 1C has 2x20mm + 2x30mm. All vs 6x12,7mm (that is .5 in) the Mustang has. It's a kind of "Big Gun envy" syndrome, or so it seems, that made the Hayate gets so much bad recognitions...

Now if only we'll get a Shoki with 2x12,7mm + 2x40mm version or 2x20mm + 2x37mm version...

Heck, even its paint was considered inferior. But that makes skinning it a far more artistic experience for me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v351/Aero_Shodanjo/Test4008.jpg

Skin will be available to download soon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

EnGaurde
05-08-2005, 06:00 AM
Uberplane in what department esp compared to - say - a Mustang

could it be.....

no.....

surely....

you can think....

for...

yourself???

you're able to do your own research...?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Aero_Shodanjo
05-08-2005, 06:18 AM
Originally posted by EnGaurde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Uberplane in what department esp compared to - say - a Mustang

could it be.....

no.....

surely....

you can think....

for...

yourself???

you're able to do your own research...?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lol. The bottomline is dont blame the Hayate for having bigger guns than most allied planes. Blame the allied aircraft manufacturers instead http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

EnGaurde
05-08-2005, 06:20 AM
Heck, even its paint was considered inferior

A more beautiful thing ive never beheld....

Te_Vigo
05-08-2005, 07:30 AM
Shame about the squad banning your Ki-84 there m8y.
Maybe you could talk your squad into doing B29 runs?

Personally, if they were modelled with all the inherent maintenace faults they developed after being stationed in the Phillipines, I could go for them.
They were a devasting machine and the Ki-100 was meant to be able to fly rings around it.
But when the highly specialised maintenance that was required wasn't available and hence, no pilot knew how their plane was going to perform and with the landing gear that wasn't tempered as called for in the design specs, quite often shearing off at landing and the brakes more than likely not working, if the landing gear survived........................

Spits can handle them, so can Yaks

ElAurens
05-08-2005, 08:33 AM
Most of the animosity towards the Ki 84 comes from Allied Naval fliers who expect a cakewalk like the history books say it was. Not taking into account that we sim pilotos have far more "seat time" than any IJAAF pilot had late in the war.

And they are also jealous that in reality the IJAAF war really destroyed by US Army Air Corps pilots in the skys above New Guinea, not by sissy Mary blue planes in infrequent carrier engagements.

VW-IceFire
05-08-2005, 08:48 AM
I'm not sure if the problems were ever solved, but there were some legitimate complaints about the Ki-84 and its high altitude modeling which, as I recall, continued to get better the higher it went. It even surpassed the P-47 and Ta-152H at one point apparently for level speed at 13,000 meters. Thats flat wrong as the Ki-84 was never a good high altitude aircraft...

That said, I think those problems have been solved and its a very good but very average aircraft. It turns exceptionally well, the armament is pretty good, and it does most things quite well. How the Ki-84 is banned and the Bf109G-2, Yak-3 or the Spitfire IX aren't is totally beyond me as all of those represent similarly performing or similarly favored aircraft.

The Ki-84's weaknesses, ones that can be exploited by Allied fighters of the same time period, involve its vulnerable fuel tanks on the leading edge of the wings which will light on fire if hit hard enough. Past that, the Ki-84 is relatively tough...much like a Mustang - but it suffers quite a bit in performance and handling when it does get hit. Its roll, turn, and elevator are all quite good and its overall an excellent fighter to be in.

I am in favor of removing the Ki-84c from most scenarios (except in certain historic conditions) as its uncertain how many of the 84c actually flew in combat and even then, they had a limited capacity of bomber interception. Their armament and performance make them somewhat of an easy plane to fly and get kills in.

Loki-PF
05-08-2005, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by EnGaurde:
its a pet hate of mine.

its as if nothing other than the Big Three: P51, F4U and P47 can be effective, dangerous aircraft.

many times have i laughed out loud at fools who have written me off for flying the Ki84, when a quick check on the player list revealed all manner of F4U, Spits and Mustangs. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

If anything japanese is dangerous, this childish 8 yr old mindset name calling appears. To many, japanese aircraft are meant to be slow, meant to be unarmoured and meant to be easy to get away from. Seeing the Ki84 is as close to western ideas of fighter aircraft as can be, this can upset many.

I believe its due to one major thing: immaturity. Im sure if older players, as in 20s up, were in this sim alone, it would be accepted as the valid aircraft it is. Instead the very young players, fancying themselves as something of online experts and really going for this notion of its not fair unless im winning, instantly deride the Ki84 with this "n00b" label despite flying something even more superior, the p51 or e.g.

The japanese apparently werent meant to have fast tougher aircraft, and the schoolchild community has christened it "uber" despite being generally slightly inferior to all the big named allied airraft if you look really closely.

i ignore them, frankly. And i laugh heartily at them when i see the usual prejudice come spewing forth.

Ignorance is rife, they prove. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

I fly the Ki84 as a rule whenever its on a map.

And i derive great, great joy at jamming that plane up the **** of anyone on the map that would complain about it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Frankly on the servers I fly on I haven't heard alot of whining about the 84.

But there are alot of dedicated Axis flyers that seen to have a really big chip on thier shoulders regarding it.

As far as maturity goes I don't count anyone who states loudly

"I fly the Ki84 as a rule whenever its on a map" as mature. Even less mature would be something like

"And i derive great, great joy at jamming that plane up the **** of anyone on the map that would complain about it." (Chest thumping optional)

The real "mature" players are the ones that pop into a server with thier mates and squaddies and check out the balance and then try to even out the teams regardless of which side that puts them on.

This has me flying for the axis more than the allied side, but not because I've got something to prove, but rather because I like teams that are more balanced.

But if you've *GOT* to fly a certain aircraft in order to prove something... well thats your deal, but I certainly don't consider it "mature", in fact I'd rate that right up there on the immaturity scale with people decrying the 84's n00bishness

PS Aero_Shodanjo: Thats a beautifull skin and I'd be proud to wear it when flying axis on co-ops! Please let us know when it's available!

Doug_Thompson
05-08-2005, 10:16 AM
Wow. Many thorough replies here. Thanks, everyone.

The JAAF concentrated a lot on Ki-84 production late in the war. It was a major type in the end. It was greatly outnumbered and prone to breakdown, yes, but any late-war allied pilot who encountered somebody willing and able to offer him a fight was likely to face somebody flying a Frank that was running that day.

Therefore, I have to say that banning the Ki-84 is very unrealistic. That would be very similar to banning the Mustang in late-war Europe.

VMF-214_HaVoK
05-08-2005, 10:23 AM
Most have the problem with the Ki-84C variant. The same goes for the F4U-1C. You will rarely see either of them in a historic server.

3.JG51_BigBear
05-08-2005, 10:51 AM
Therefore, I have to say that banning the Ki-84 is very unrealistic. That would be very similar to banning the Mustang in late-war Europe.

That might be a little extreme. The Japanese were not mounting any where near as many sorties with ki-84s as the Americans and British were with P-51s over Europe. A lot of the Ki-84 production was held back in the second airforce the Japanese were storing in caves for the final defense of the island. Still whereas there were only 650-700 FW190D9s produced, there were about 3400 of the ki84a models alone. I don't fly the plane myself but I think its a legitimate late war aircraft.

Blackdog5555
05-08-2005, 11:20 AM
I agree with HaVak. It is just as he says, plus the first 84s, pre patch were "overmodeled." I could do a 360 roll in a fully loaded 84 in 1.7 seconds, pre patch. They pretty mutch fly within specs now.

///But really, it has to do with standards of chivalry too. It's not "cricket" or marcus of queensbury to fly with multiple 30mm cannons in a gun fight. No honor in bringing out a bazooka in a knife fight thing. But do what you want. dogfight servers are just make believe anyway.

///hey Engaurde..I think you need to "up" you meds. Jeesh, bro.

extemely bored BD.

VFA-195 Snacky
05-08-2005, 03:39 PM
I think some don't like the KI84 because the plane allows an otherwise below average skilled online pilot to do well against other skilled pilots in harder to fly aircraft. I feel the same way about the Spitfire in servers where you see entire squads flying Clipped Spits and nothing else because they know in any other plane they would be pounded.

If this is the case then I like to even things out by choosing the same plane. You don't appreciate how easy the Spit and Ki84 folks have it until you fly a P38 for months and hop into one of these UFOs for a few minutes. It's also satisfying when you take on these UFOs in aircraft that are hard to fly and win. Makes it that much sweeter.

Just my opinion of course

Gunner_361st
05-08-2005, 04:43 PM
Different people have different reasons for disliking particular aircraft.

In my experience, it would seem the aircraft that have the best performance in IL-2 in speed, turn rate, responsiveness, and firepower while still being very simple and easy to fly, are the ones that are generally despised because of that.

Early and mid-war aircraft seem to appeal more to older segments of the online community because the performance of these earlier aircraft do not allow for mistakes which could otherwise be escaped from in late-war, high performance planes.

But again, different people have different reasons. I'll personally take a Zero over a Hayate any day, myself.

361st TeaWagon - AKA 361st Gunner

EnGaurde
05-08-2005, 05:08 PM
hmm yes well perhaps i did get a tad carried away earlier.

its only due to this infuriating idea of balance... reality has nothing to do with balance.

the japanese sorely need very high performance aircraft, and its just ridiculous to complain about japanese hi per planes when russian, american and british types go untouched.

mortoma
05-08-2005, 08:26 PM
One weird thing about the Ki-84 is that for a plane with such a decent top speed, the landing speed is super low. The last time I tried to fly this bird, I came in over the threshold of the runway at about 190KPH, a similar speed as I would most other fast planes. But it was way too fast for the KI!! I ended up floating over the runway for quite a while and had to fight off balooning it. I had not ever landed it before I don't think. Learned quck that you have to really slow this kite down for a landing. Strange for a medium fast aircraft and quite a contrast to other similar planes. I was very suprised to say the least......

AVG_WarHawk
05-08-2005, 10:05 PM
I like the big Guns!

http://tinypic.com/51capj

VW-IceFire
05-08-2005, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
Most have the problem with the Ki-84C variant. The same goes for the F4U-1C. You will rarely see either of them in a historic server.
At least the 200 F4U-1C's had a combat record that is well established. I know what you mean and I am firmly against the 84c in the average dogfight setup...but the F4U-1C I have less of a problem with. Probably has to do with the fact that the Corsair takes a bit more to fly.

IL2-chuter
05-09-2005, 01:53 AM
The test pilots (combined services) at Freeman Field, Indiana used the Frank there for just about . . . everything - it was their favorite hack - because it was very hi-performing, easy to fly and maintain (providing you have tools and parts), and reliable. The aircraft was carefully selected in the field and well mantained, maybe factors not attributable to the majority of Franks in Japanese service.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif I'm happy to have been able to contribute.

Oh, along with Frank C's you MIGHT add La7 3xcannon(very few made), 190A9 (very few made, and heavy)w/108's (few 108's installed in wings of 190's), and 109's w/108 gunpods (no 108 gunpods known other than test). (Just what I've read, I might be wrong - but if I am, it's not me, it's the references. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif)

Aero_Shodanjo
05-09-2005, 02:50 AM
Originally posted by IL2-chuter:

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif I'm happy to have been able to contribute.



Do you mean you got your hand on one of the surviving Frank, actually? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

CreaseKeeper
05-09-2005, 03:48 AM
Originally posted by VFA-195 Snacky:
I think some don't like the KI84 because the plane allows an otherwise below average skilled online pilot to do well against other skilled pilots in harder to fly aircraft. I feel the same way about the Spitfire in servers where you see entire squads flying Clipped Spits and nothing else because they know in any other plane they would be pounded.

If this is the case then I like to even things out by choosing the same plane. You don't appreciate how easy the Spit and Ki84 folks have it until you fly a P38 for months and hop into one of these UFOs for a few minutes. It's also satisfying when you take on these UFOs in aircraft that are hard to fly and win. Makes it that much sweeter.

Just my opinion of course



Bingo, you hit the nail right on the head...

-S-

reverendkrv1972
05-09-2005, 04:13 AM
indeed Snacky did,been watching this thread waiting for that to be written http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

also the 'i like big guns' ...them big guns dont point backwards...OOPS http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

where have you been Creasey?not been shot down by you for a while...

Regards,

Rev

ElAurens
05-09-2005, 05:26 AM
The fact that both the Ki84 and Spitfire are easy to fly are credits to their respective design teams. This is what all combat aircraft designers strive for. Lower pilot work loads and high performance levels equal better combat performance. For both the pilot and the aircraft.

You don't honestly think that any real world aircraft designer would purposely set out to make a combat aircraft hard to fly do you?

This is starting to sound like another "Harder = Better" thread started by some erstwhile Luftwaffe and USN pilots that got owned online. Well here is some news for you. Harder is not better, it is just harder.

And just so you know, I typically fly the Ki61 or P40 when they are available.

Jex_TG
05-09-2005, 06:46 AM
Isn't the point of this game to allow you to fly all of these planes? As for the realism junkies, you lot crack me up. What part of realism has magic planes spawning in on some magical part of the world for some airquake combat (reminds me of those iron eagle films).

If your re-enacting historical engagements then the server will limit the planes to that era - if you're in a DF server then don't complain about who fly's what and if you don't like it, leave and join a server that does limit planes so you can play your P51's against sopwith camels.

The funny thing is that these people who do complain about "uber" planes are usually flying uber planes themselves. You'll find they'll fly the best of what's to offer for "their" side, and then ***** about people who choose a good plane from the "other" side lol.

ZG77_Nagual
05-09-2005, 08:08 AM
If you take a 190 and remove everything that makes it a challenge to fly - you've got a ki84. Excellent control harmony, roll rate, turn, speed, dive and climb and visibility too!
I generally ban the one with the big guns - in fact I generally prefer '43 scenarios. But there is no denying it's a splendid plane. Alot of it's rep comes from it being a fav mount of the doofi - who are often rude. Inexperienced pilots in the ki84 turn too much and are not a problem if you fly a disciplined tactical regime. (other than when they stand the one with the big guns on it's tail and spray the air when you're a Kilometer above them)

I flew one great ki84 dogfight against a guy who was so good in it I was finding it very difficult to beat him in a p38. It was an excellent flight and by the end our respective planes were nearly unmanageable.

Still waiting for that J2m cockpit though.

geetarman
05-09-2005, 09:59 AM
KI-84? Great plane, sometimes flown poorly. Easy target for a diving Mustang if flown poorly. Maybe because of it's attributes, I have come across a greater number of 84 pilots that don't check six regularly.

VMF-214_HaVoK
05-09-2005, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
Most have the problem with the Ki-84C variant. The same goes for the F4U-1C. You will rarely see either of them in a historic server.
At least the 200 F4U-1C's had a combat record that is well established. I know what you mean and I am firmly against the 84c in the average dogfight setup...but the F4U-1C I have less of a problem with. Probably has to do with the fact that the Corsair takes a bit more to fly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I agree. If you noticed, the Ki84C was in more servers until the F4U1C arrived. It seems most axis flyers did not care for the US having a very powerfull ammo load. Funny thing is that it was fine for us US flyers to put up with Mark108s all this time.

But I still prefer not to see them in the servers I fly in only because that is all everyone will be flying. And it quickly becomes airquake and mission objectives fall by the wayside.

Schmouddle-WT
05-09-2005, 11:31 AM
Regarding Ki84 -

We have been struggling with this plane on our Okinawa mission at WT_Dedicated.

Somehow we realized, on Okinawa the time to overheat for P&W engines of Navy birds is FAR MORE quickier than for the Ki84. The P&W just stays hot, no matter how you fiddle with cowl flaps, 80/80 setting is what keeps it relatively cold. Water Injection? Better not to use it at all. Close cowl? Not a good idea anyway? Running 100/100 (without boost)? You got "overheat" within 5 min.

The Ki84's engine is the opposite, you can run it on high pitch setting, with MW50 (or japanese couterpart of it) and when it gets too warm, just ease a little bit on the throttle and here you go again, cold as being inside a fridge.

Of course when dealing with overheating youre not gonna run, you not gonna climb, youre just sitting duck there whioch makes some folks rather dissapointed. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Somehow this is seems to be obvious on Okinawa map - had anybody tried to compare the overheat time on Okinawa to the one at on "standartized" Crimea?

When there was Ki84 broadly available, almost everybody sat in the plane. They just arrived to the fleet (with AAA toned down becuse of lag prevention) and vulched everybody there back into stone age.
That is not a way to do it, right?

Somehow our blue section is a litle bit louder then the red one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif and I cannot just put the Ki84 out.
Now there are Ki84b's in limited numbers (thanks to Gennadich SC) and the same with F4U-1C to everybody's content (or may I say happiness)

Please note this is not meant to be a "whine", this is my point on the case.

I really do not want to take poor Japanese their Hayates away(no matter how crappy they might have been in reality, opposite to prototype figures we have in the sim).

I just want to have the same principles of physics (or better say FM) applied to all planes
around here.

p1ngu666
05-09-2005, 09:03 PM
main problem is with the C, its just not sporting tbh.
otherwise its ok, bit too titchy for me, but its not like the IJA and IJN have a decent late war fighter otherwise
zeros 21,3,5,5a,5b are ok, rest are useless for me atleast
ki61 is ok, but not really remarkable, its like a slug http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
ki43 is fun but with limited guns and sight...

the other problem is has its not german, or american, so it CANT be a good plane can it? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

EnGaurde
05-09-2005, 11:09 PM
its quite interesting.

that, being gunnery and the apparent ease of kills.

i flew a corsair a while back on one map when the balance was out of whack.

im used to ultra close, highly maneouverable single blip cannon shots, not one round missing if i can help it. You just cant with a handful of 20mm rounds to spend a la IJN / A.

but the ammo loadout on the f4u.... point, close to nyaaaah thats about far enough, commence firing.

keep firing.

chase plane around sky shooting holes in anything and everything, usually including the target.

eventually get two or three hits and reduce plane to a fireball.

finger off trigger.

fly off.

its just amazing. So much ammo, four, five mebbe more kills per sortie is simple flying US Navy or associated fighters. ( I wont mention the Jug...) Try that with any japanese cannon equipped fighter and youd be lucky to even hit, and be forced to juice up again after mebbe one kill?

flying performance is one thing, but gun platforms are quite another. Nothing is simpler to do than aim and shoot with allied aircraft. The japanese opponents jump around just enough to ruin your fine aim. Where your f4u has enough ammo to hose you from the sky with a sheer weight of lead, the japanese gunner has to literally inject his shells point blank.

what you should be fearing, is the 6 fifty equipped hayate... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Easier to fly, and stupidly easier to shoot.

everyone thinks the Ki84 is so spectacular, someone earlier reckons its a UFO comp to the later p38...??? Well, obviously the guys ive tried to chase down werent playing by the rules. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

play one repeatedly against determined opposition, remember what made it difficult to fly and then come tell me its UFO status. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Doug_Thompson
05-09-2005, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by geetarman:
... Maybe because of it's attributes, I have come across a greater number of 84 pilots that don't check six regularly.

Hmmm.

I wonder. When on-line, can you tell if the other guy is flying with a "no cockpit" view?

The Ki-84 handles easily and recovers from stalls very well. A rote beginner could fly it without a turn and bank indicator.

I don't know about the Spit', etc., but that may explain why they don't check six. They may be thinking that big arrow is pointing to something beneath them.

Doug_Thompson
05-10-2005, 07:44 AM
LEBillfish
In Re: Big Guns.

How many rounds does it carry, though?

LEBillfish
05-10-2005, 08:12 AM
I have no idea, you'd have to ask Warhawk as it was his post.....But I'm just betting he'll know http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

jeroen_R90S
05-10-2005, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by Aero_Shodanjo:
Skin will be available to download soon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

When????? I love it already!

Jeroen

Aero_Shodanjo
05-10-2005, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by jeroen_R90S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aero_Shodanjo:
Skin will be available to download soon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

When????? I love it already!

Jeroen </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Two weeks? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif lol...

Seriously, as you might've guessed, Im waiting for Il2skins.com to get back online. I'll wait for another 7 days (http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) and if it still off, I'll upload the skins somewhere else.

LEBillfish
05-10-2005, 09:46 AM
<span class="ev_code_PINK">AVG-Warhawk, I don't want to pry in your personal business, but have anymore pics of your "friends" you'd care to share?</span>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

AVG_WarHawk
05-10-2005, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
<span class="ev_code_PINK">AVG-Warhawk, I don't want to pry in your personal business, but have anymore pics of your "friends" you'd care to share?</span>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

You'll have to see original post, say hi to Bruce for me! I got more if you wish?

antonio_f
05-10-2005, 11:23 AM
I don't understand people and all this "UBER" online garbage. It's like in Call of Duty they would ban the StG 44 because it's an "uber" gun. Banning a plane is STUPID!

Yeah, give 'em whatever they want. Let them fly an F-16 against my P-40B, or F2A! I wouldn't care. I'd be all to proud to say I shot one down. And if you can't shoot down a "noob" flying a Ki-84 in your Mustang, you better re-think your skills and get more practice!

I'm not saying it's easy but in the age old wisdom of dogfighting, the better pilot should ALWAYS win, no matter what he's flying.

Erich Hartmann - 352 kills - 6 Mustangs - he flew 109s.

LEBillfish
05-10-2005, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by AVG_WarHawk:

You'll have to see original post, say hi to Bruce for me! I got more if you wish?

Well, lets call this a mistake on your part, lets find out why.....Go ape, post um all, rather pathetic you'd download them anywho, but I suppose boys need their jollies.

IP's are a wonderful thing http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

tigertalon
05-10-2005, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by antonio_f:
the better pilot should ALWAYS win, no matter what he's flying.


While I agree with most of your post, I have to object here. If you take two really experienced pilots (both flying a few hours averagely per day, since the days Il2 was released - yes you can find such), and put one in a hurricane MkI and the other in La7 or Fw190, and after 50 matchups switch the pilots for another 50, Hurri WILL go down in flames in 99/100 cases.

As pilots experience gets higher and higher, plane becomes more and more important.

I repeat again, I agree with most of your post, good read.



Erich Hartmann - 352 kills - 6 Mustangs - he flew 109s.

Check out also this guys:

Josef "Pipps" Priller (http://www.luftwaffe.cz/priller.html) - 101 kills including 68 spitfires http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif ... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Josef "Sepp" Wurmheller (http://www.luftwaffe.cz/wurmheller.html) out of his 102 victories 56 were spitfires, including 6 in one day - 19.08.1942

Wilhelm Steinmann (http://www.luftwaffe.cz/steinmann.html) 44 kills, including 11 mustangs

AVG_WarHawk
05-10-2005, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVG_WarHawk:

You'll have to see original post, say hi to Bruce for me! I got more if you wish?

Well, lets call this a mistake on your part, lets find out why.....Go ape, post um all, rather pathetic you'd download them anywho, but I suppose boys need their jollies.

IP's are a wonderful thing http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, you did ask.......

BigKahuna_GS
05-10-2005, 04:03 PM
S!

I agree with IceFire, Havoc and BD. There was some F/M isues with the plane and I still here complaints about high speed roll rates being 190ish and dive speeds closing in on the P47. I like seeing the Ki84 in PTO servers--means good competition.

I have seen PTO servers with the Ki84 1a & 1B vs various allied aircraft including the F4U-1C. Dont know why the F4U-1C would be banned as all it has is 20mm cannon like the Ki84a/b where as the Ki84C has the 30mm cannon.

Anyways bring it on Ki84 ---I take you on in my Corsair http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Just wish the F4U-4 and P47N were in the PTO also.

__

HotelBushranger
05-11-2005, 02:25 AM
Now I'm starting to have a problem with 84's. Last night on a df server, there was me (cr42) and a mate in his biplane dueling, some la's/lagg's, a spit, and 2 or 3 Ki-84's. And these people flew them the entire time. Not once in the hour I was on did they choose another aircraft, whilst others had gone through half the planeset. And the there's the problem of Salutes. Nothing ticks me off more than when your'e in a lovely dogfight with a good pilot, when you hear the booming, sucking sounds of the Ki's 30mm's, and half a second later you are obliterated. Aand, then, the person posts a whole hearted .~!S!~. My thought: Wtf. Like it takes a whole load of skill and cunning to boom up some persons **** and unload half a countries ammo stores into him, and then think it's worthy of a salute. Jeez. You want my Salute, fly a plane which has any disadvantage-weak armament, slow, bad manouverability, etc.


It's also satisfying when you take on these UFOs in aircraft that are hard to fly and win. Makes it that much sweeter.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. I shot down 3 planes in one flight, including a Ki-84, in my humble Cr 42 last night http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif Had to change my pants from the amount of piss in it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jex_TG
05-11-2005, 05:42 AM
So are you saying that people who fly 84's don't deserve to shoot you down?

HotelBushranger
05-11-2005, 05:56 AM
No, however it gets tedious and boring to the other players who have to verse Ki-84's aroudn the clock. Doesn't anybody know what variety is?

EnGaurde
05-11-2005, 06:40 AM
No, however it gets tedious and boring to the other players who have to verse Ki-84's aroudn the clock. Doesn't anybody know what variety is?

as ACCEPTED as it is to face all manner of F4U?

I fly japanese aircraft as much as i can.

except when map balance forbids.

check my stats on ZvW for proof.

my single question is.... why do allied flyers always have problems with Japanese aircraft online but, largely, japanese flyers NEVER complain about allied aircraft?

is this a perception problem?

is their a gross, gross exploitation of allied capability towards japanese capability not found in the (BETTER DEFENDED) axis ranks?

japanese aircraft are never free to explore their inherit capabilities....

Badsight.
05-11-2005, 07:14 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I'm not sure if the problems were ever solved, but there were some legitimate complaints about the Ki-84 and its high altitude modeling which, as I recall, continued to get better the higher it went. It even surpassed the P-47 and Ta-152H at one point apparently for level speed at 13,000 meters. Thats flat wrong as the Ki-84 was never a good high altitude aircraft.... never happened in FB-PF in any patch

Badsight.
05-11-2005, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by Schmouddle-WT:
(no matter how crappy they might have been in reality, opposite to prototype figures we have in the sim). funny you say that , generally , japanese firms understated the performance of their creations

no evidence exists of higher performing prototypes , just production data exists

& why give just Hayates production problems ?

in one plane gets them , all should , dont you agree ?

.

the only thing that needs to be altered about Hayates is their insane DM

too easy to hurt

too hard to blow up

geetarman
05-11-2005, 08:03 AM
Originally posted by Badsight.:


too easy to hurt

too hard to blow up

_____________________________________________--

They are pretty easy to flame up. Couple hits in the wing area and they're a fireball.

Doug_Thompson
05-11-2005, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by Badsight.:

... & why give just Hayates production problems ?

in one plane gets them , all should , dont you agree ?


History is with Badsight on this one. ALL Japanese aircraft were running into production problems by 1944 -- earlier in some cases.

The Ki-61 Tony is the ultimate example of this. Not only was production achingly slow, but the engine was notoriously unreliable.

The Hayate was the predominent Imperial Army aircraft from 1944 on, at least in terms of production priority.

Letting Japanese players fly all the outclassed Tonys that they want while bringing up the production problem only in the case of their best plane is inconsistent.

==========

Are there any servers that offer combat between Japanese and Russian aircraft?

There was a Russian invasion of Manchuria in 1945. It was crushing and brief, but did happen.

Schmouddle-WT
05-11-2005, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Schmouddle-WT:
(no matter how crappy they might have been in reality, opposite to prototype figures we have in the sim). funny you say that , generally , japanese firms understated the performance of their creations
no evidence exists of higher performing prototypes , just production data exists
& why give just Hayates production problems ?
in one plane gets them , all should , dont you agree ?
the only thing that needs to be altered about Hayates is their insane DM
too easy to hurt
too hard to blow up </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dear Badsight,
please spare the community from phrases teared apart from the meaning of original posts.

The original phrase was:

"I really do not want to take poor Japanese their Hayates away (no matter how crappy they might have been in reality, opposite to prototype figures we have in the sim)"

I meant there were problems with Hayates engines suffering from poor craftmanship and poor quality of material used. The rationed power output of the prototype (or early models build with "full consciousness") was definately higher than the production ones from the late stages of war (1944 and on)
It is completely fine with me if Japanese planes do not have the production-based flaws, it jsut make flying in US planes more challenging (did I say anything about Hellcat windscreen? I would refuse to take off in it).

Badsight and Doug_Thompson, you are wrong in your arguing with me because I did not say (or mean) what youre arguing against.


My point was, that we have gained a feeling that Hayates engine is always somewhat cooler and easy to cool than the P&W's of Navy Fighters. I politely asked if anybody has the same feeling (since i do not have any solid measurements).
I am well aware that all the data in the sim are somehow "ideal" and perhaps no aircraft has the production-based flaws modelled.

So I really dont know why you flame me like that.

You better come to WT_Dedicated and fight for your words (perhaps in the Ki84b on our Okinawa45 map)

RAF74_Poker
05-11-2005, 10:42 AM
I much prefer to fly the Zero over the 84.
Given the choice, I'd take a -21 over an 84.
the only time I take an 84 is on the Iwo mission .. because you can't take the Zero until the tanks by the base are destroyed.
Take them out w/ 84 or 61, then switch to Zero to take down the Hellcats and Corsairs. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Following on with EnGuarde's comment ... I rarely see much complaining from Blue over the planes given on Z&W ... hell, we are used to flying against the odds ... we're usually outnumbered, outgunned, but it's all fun !! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ElAurens
05-11-2005, 10:57 AM
I fly the Ki 61 almost exclusively now and only take the 84 if being severely vulched by those Blue Plane Punks.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

jeroen_R90S
05-11-2005, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by Aero_Shodanjo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jeroen_R90S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aero_Shodanjo:
Skin will be available to download soon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

When????? I love it already!

Jeroen </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Two weeks? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif lol...

Seriously, as you might've guessed, Im waiting for Il2skins.com to get back online. I'll wait for another 7 days (http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) and if it still off, I'll upload the skins somewhere else. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I guessed that already http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
It looks excellent, I'll be just patient! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jeroen

Doug_Thompson
05-11-2005, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by Schmouddle-WT:

The original phrase was:

"I really do not want to take poor Japanese their Hayates away (no matter how crappy they might have been in reality, opposite to prototype figures we have in the sim)"

I meant there were problems with Hayates engines suffering from poor craftmanship and poor quality of material used. The rationed power output of the prototype (or early models build with "full consciousness") was definately higher than the production ones from the late stages of war (1944 and on)
It is completely fine with me if Japanese planes do not have the production-based flaws, it jsut make flying in US planes more challenging (did I say anything about Hellcat windscreen? I would refuse to take off in it).

Badsight and Doug_Thompson, you are wrong in your arguing with me because I did not say (or mean) what youre arguing against.

I meant no personal offense, Schmouddle-WT. My point was that ALL Japanese aircraft, particularly in 1945, had the same production and quality control problems that you refer to. If the Ki-84 should be penalized for these problems, all Japanese late-war aircraft should be penalized.

Do that, and no one will fly Japanese.



My point was, that we have gained a feeling that Hayates engine is always somewhat cooler and easy to cool than the P&W's of Navy Fighters. I politely asked if anybody has the same feeling (since i do not have any solid measurements).

Frankly, I was quite excited at the prospect that the Hayate might be able to run "flat out" more than the Americans. I hoped it was true.

I was busy last night and only had time for one test. I wasn't going to say anything becuase it was only one test and it was down low, 1,000 meters. However, since the subject came up ...

I ran a K-84 1b and a "uber" Corsair through the same procedure: Throttle to the wall until the first "Engine overheat!" Then throttle back immediately to 90 percent until "Engine normal." Finally, once the engine cooled, run at 100 percent. I used time compression after the first two minutes of 100 percent. The flights were level and straight.

The big, apparent flaw in my test is that it should have been 110-90-110-90, etc. instead of 110-90-100. That will give a better idea of what's going on.

The "uber" Corsair ran more than three minutes -- 30 seconds longer -- than the Hayate at 110 percent before an overheat warning appeared. The Corsair cooled down just as fast, and ran at 100 percent virtually indefinately, as did the Hayate.

I'm not challenging the lessons of experience with just one hurried test, Schmouddle-WT. For all I know, there's a limited supply of water for the Corsair's water injection. Also, we might get different results at different altitudes. A flat-out Corsair at low level is pushing through a lot of cooling air. Perhaps the cooling is not nearly so efficient during a climb, either.

I do plan to record some of these test flight at different altitudes, then run them at 1/4 time and use the track clock to get some decent meausurements. I'm open to suggestions.

Schmouddle-WT
05-11-2005, 03:07 PM
Okay, I made my tests.

I run both planes with cowl flaps full open, pitch 100%, altitude 0-300m , Okinawa map (do not flame me for map, I have noticed the difference on this particular map). Max available power until overheat, after it drop the throttle to 90/, wait until Normal and then run 100% (without MW50)

The funny moment is, that if I put MW50 in Ki841b, it is not shown in the track, while MW50 of Corsair is shown. So please believe me I made it fair.

What went out of the test is following:

full power until Overheat:
F4U-1C: 2:56 (speed around 500 kph)
Ki84-Ib: 5:07 (speed around 510 kph)

Overheat to normal (90% throttle)
F4U-1C: 0:09
Ki84-Ib: 0:02

Normal to overheat (100% throttle)
F4U-1C: 0:39
Ki84-Ib: indefinite


The differenece is simply awesome.


tracks are available here:
Ki84-1b@Okinawa (http://home.karneval.cz/00006132/apps/kikinaokinawa.ntrk)
Corsair@Okinawa (http://home.karneval.cz/00006132/apps/corsairokinawa.ntrk)

Please comment, sombody could do the same on Crimea for reference....it is 23:20 here and I need to go to work tommorrow.

Cheers!

Badsight.
05-11-2005, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by Schmouddle-WT:
The rationed power output of the prototype (or early models build with "full consciousness") was definately higher than the production ones from the late stages of war (1944 and on) ?

the Hayate only got more powerfull after it was first produced

the Homare 11 was nowhere near the Homare 24s performance

where do you get the impression that Hayates in FB are based on higher performing prototypes ?

Badsight.
05-11-2005, 04:43 PM
& your comparing the Corsairs horrible overheat tendancys to the Hayate only , try it against all other planes , it sucks . period

i dont know why the Hellcat & Corsair overheat so eaisly but it dont seem right to me

when i fly the Corsair & Hellcat im do more to avoid overheat than any other planes in FB-PF

HotelBushranger
05-11-2005, 08:43 PM
my single question is.... why do allied flyers always have problems with Japanese aircraft online but, largely, japanese flyers NEVER complain about allied aircraft?

I guess you have a point there. F4U-C's are also crowding servers. Maybe there should be a single server with 45 aircraft only, so people can fly Ki-84's and F4U's to their hearts content, and the rest of the servers won't have to worry bout them anymore http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Doug_Thompson
05-11-2005, 08:49 PM
This is intriguing, especially since I just finished a test like my earlier one at a greater altitude and got the same sort of results as I did last time.

If the American radial powered "muscle" planes are prone to overheating, it would be VERY interesting to know when and under what conditions.

There are two big obvious differences between Schmouddle-WT's little experiment and my two. First, he's at very low altitude. Second, he's using real engine management to make settings, but then leaving everything in place, while I'm just letting the flight model manage the engine.

Notice that cowl flaps are full open and prop pitch is 100 percent for both planes in Schmouddle-WT's more detailed test. Perhaps this is a case -- and I'm only guessing here -- of how the Ki-84 is a very forgiving plane that needs little managment, while the Corsair is a better plane when micromanaged.

Allow me to quote "Viper" from his engine management article on il2flying.com:


... opening your radiator completely can overheat your engine by causing enough drag to work your engine even harder when already hot. ...

2. Prop Pitch settings:

a. Never set your prop pitch at a percentage lower than your throttle settings, e.g. it would seem that you can set for a "higher gear" by setting your throttle at say 95% and the prop pitch at 90%. But, by doing so you simply waste fuel and overstress your crankshaft, as well as generate alot of heat by "loading" your engine thus putting engine rpm at odds with mixture and fuel intake settings with no gain in performance[etc.]

100% (prop pitch) < 110% (Throttle setting)

So, I'm guessing that the bigger Pratt & Whitney is less forgiving on engine management. Otherwise, there should be no difference between Schmouddle-WT's results and the auto-pilots.

p1ngu666
05-11-2005, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">my single question is.... why do allied flyers always have problems with Japanese aircraft online but, largely, japanese flyers NEVER complain about allied aircraft?

I guess you have a point there. F4U-C's are also crowding servers. Maybe there should be a single server with 45 aircraft only, so people can fly Ki-84's and F4U's to their hearts content, and the rest of the servers won't have to worry bout them anymore http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ud haveto put in earlier zeros, as 45 zeros are *dire*, either u is having stiff controls or your stalling. cant turn very well really, or climb, the other zeros are far better, and even they arent that good imo (should be better)

btw the latewar german planes had issues, like weak oil pipes that break inflight and cover the plane in oil http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

geetarman
05-12-2005, 09:33 AM
Allow me to quote "Viper" from his engine management article on il2flying.com:


... opening your radiator completely can overheat your engine by causing enough drag to work your engine even harder when already hot. ...

2. Prop Pitch settings:

a. Never set your prop pitch at a percentage lower than your throttle settings, e.g. it would seem that you can set for a "higher gear" by setting your throttle at say 95% and the prop pitch at 90%. But, by doing so you simply waste fuel and overstress your crankshaft, as well as generate alot of heat by "loading" your engine thus putting engine rpm at odds with mixture and fuel intake settings with no gain in performance[etc.]

_____________________________________________

Funny, but I think the Lockheed reps (incld. Tony Levier) suggested the exact opposite for the P-38 to the pilots in the ETO. He suggested high boost (i.e. high throttle)and low rpm (low prop pitch) as they way to get the best (including range) from the P-38. Seems to run contrary to the advice above.

Re: Japanese pilots not complaining about the US fighters in PF - I wouldn't blame them if they did. Flew on an OL server today which allowed Zeros, Franks and Tonys vs. 51s, 47s, Corsairs, etc. The Zeros really had a big problem dealing with the Mustangs, etc. if they were flown properly.

NorrisMcWhirter
05-12-2005, 05:20 PM
In answer to the original question, the Ki84 was considered uber on release as it bagged many a 'superior' US aircraft online.

It's certainly not uber now after being whined into oblivion...er..corrected but the 1c is banned from nearly all servers because of the ruptured Mohne dam style floods of tears we had. Despite the concerted attempt to scupper it, it's not cr*p, either. Fly it - make your own mind up.

Ta,
Norris

zronin
05-13-2005, 03:47 PM
For all those people who complain about the Ki84 as being uber and should be banned, they should start flying the Japanese side in Zeke vs Wildcat and see how they like being consistantly outnumbered, outgunned, outclassed, and just about out everything.

Yeah using the Ki84s may not be historically accurate but so what. We all know what happened in history. The Japanaese lost the war! If we all flew and played true to history than there would be no point in this game or any history based game because the outcome has already been set by history. So is it so wrong if the Japanese side wins a battle online that they historically lost and vice versa.

We are playing online for fun. Sometimes the Japanaese side wins but mostly the American side wins. If the planeset calls for late model planes then let any late model planes be used. It may just make the battles more challenging and fun.

LEXX_Luthor
05-13-2005, 10:44 PM
LEBelfish::
It's not, it just took on a stigma as being "uber" a while back....Now I believe simply a sour grapes thing with those that fly allied.
Same thing with the Allied simmers who fly German planes in FB (they all fly USA planes in PF -- the tip~off). The Russians were not supposed to make competitive fighters, same with Japanese aircraft makers, but they both made them anyway. The Nerve.

Its like when they first saw Ki~100 announced for Patch and wanted P~100 added for play Balance. They see "84" and they want P~84 for Balance -- the Republic F~84G (tm) can achieve the Best Balance naturally, but it too may require Licensing now.

Aero_Shodanjo
05-14-2005, 05:36 AM
Originally posted by jeroen_R90S:
Yes, I guessed that already http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
It looks excellent, I'll be just patient! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jeroen

Ok time's up, here's the skin (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/2561079023)

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

p1ngu666
05-14-2005, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
LEBelfish:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It's not, it just took on a stigma as being "uber" a while back....Now I believe simply a sour grapes thing with those that fly allied.
Same thing with the Allied simmers who fly German planes in FB (they all fly USA planes in PF -- the tip~off). The Russians were not supposed to make competitive fighters, same with Japanese aircraft makers, but they both made them anyway. The Nerve.

Its like when they first saw Ki~100 announced for Patch and wanted P~100 added for play Balance. They see "84" and they want P~84 for Balance -- the Republic F~84G (tm) can achieve the Best Balance naturally, but it too may require Licensing now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif so true
tbh, zero can stuggle vs corsairs in a low speed close in dogfight http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif with the later zeros its just awful you cant turn very well, or climb, its like a flying coffin http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Daiichidoku
05-14-2005, 11:44 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


ok, lets NOT be generic about the "ki84"...

i have NEVER, ever, seen any whining in any way, shape, or form (excepting way back in 1.22, the ridiculous DM) about the "ki84" in a server, at least

any and alll whining ever done about it refers strictly to the ki84 1C model...not the 1A, or 1B, but the 1C

the whines ALL have the same issue....the fact that the 1C model is a type with perhaps 3 examples made, doubtful combat history, but mostly that its 2 x 30mm cannon are instra-kill noob ace-makers, that can and do sometimes drop some ppl's frame rates

I have never seen anyone griping about the "ki84" when any server allows ONLY the 1A or 1B models

the closest it ever comes to whining is complaining that the fuel tanks flame too easy, ala zero...(which makes sense, ki84s had fuel protection equivalent to allied types, the ki84 fuel protection suffers from "stigma", the same problem that plagues the 38 with compressability)

that, or some whining in nUBIe forums about its top speed, and then, mostly arguements about that its RL manufacture left much to be desired in quality control, fuel quality, etc



PLEASE!

lets not bring the "ki84" as a type into the "noob" picture

isolate the ki84 1C as the noob candy-**** type that it is, and attack it, not the (for JP) widely produced, combat seasoned 1A and 1B models

i enjoy the ki841A and 1B almost as much as Ki61s....but you'd NEVER EVER see me in a ki841C

i hold the ki841C in low, low regard, indeed...and those that choose to fly it, when there is 1A or 1B models instead

danger13
05-14-2005, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
It's not, it just took on a stigma as being "uber" a while back....Now I believe simply a sour grapes thing with those that fly allied.



sorry to disagree here but, i can outfly many a KI-84, even in my F2-A(which if had better guns i would blow most of them to bits as well)and i still think it is uber a/c...lol
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

p1ngu666
05-14-2005, 01:29 PM
think 300 ki84c's where made
200 cannon corsairs where made http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
ban em both, imo http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

RCAF_FB_FHDOG
05-14-2005, 03:37 PM
Dog just loves his KI84.


Dinner is served.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

HayateAce
05-14-2005, 04:39 PM
If you are not wiping clean every propellor-driven aircraft from the skies with the Frank, it is your own poor flying.

My plane, A, B or C is far and away better than anything found on servers today. ***Wimp~RunNinety, 1-OH-Whine, Spituber...bring them all on.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

HayateAce
05-14-2005, 04:46 PM
Yes, the 190 is easiest kill in game for my 84. Sometimes it is fun to sit back and not fire, just watching the gyration and desparate effort to get away. They cannot outroll or out run.

Then comes the last pannicked attempt.....they try to out-turn! That is when I open the trigger and unleash my 2x20mm and 2x30mm and watch them effortlessly cut the Runwolf in 2 neat pieces.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif



http://www.lares.dti.ne.jp/~jps/cg3/ki84no2.jpg

LEBillfish
05-14-2005, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by danger13:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
It's not, it just took on a stigma as being "uber" a while back....Now I believe simply a sour grapes thing with those that fly allied.





sorry to disagree here but, i can outfly many a KI-84, even in my F2-A(which if had better guns i would blow most of them to bits as well)and i still think it is uber a/c...lol
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree, as most folks who "think" they are the end all......."virtual".........Ace, were shot down by it once so hence....it is "uber".

In contrast I have flown the weakest gunned planes her and routinely killed so called "uber tanks"....So maybe it is simply an issue of gunnery and tactics as I'm the worst pilot here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

p1ngu666
05-14-2005, 07:24 PM
im worse http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Badsight.
05-14-2005, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
If you are not wiping clean every propellor-driven aircraft from the skies with the Frank, it is your own poor flying.

My plane, A, B or C is far and away better than anything found on servers today. ***Wimp~RunNinety, 1-OH-Whine, Spituber...bring them all on. per v3.04 , you couldnt be more wrong

HayateAce
05-15-2005, 12:37 AM
I suppose you mean PRE v3.04.

You mean the days of overmodel I suspect.

Even after nards-removal, still on top of the heap.

http://www.lares.dti.ne.jp/~jps/cg3/ki84no2.jpg

DIRTY-MAC
05-15-2005, 03:51 AM
Ki84 are often wery simple targets as most of them are flown by not so good pilots and are often overconfident about their aircraft,
I dont find them uber at all, but I agree they are probably the best allaround fighter in the game, but surprisingly I have never come across a very skilled and very tactical Ki84 player ever online, the experten always fly something more challegin witch demands more tactical patience and they scare me a hell of alot more than a Ki84, any model, I have to say that
Im myself just an average pilot, im pretty good in the early warplanes as I tend to fly them the most, in the late ones I suck, I havn't learn how to squeese the most out of them,
the only thing that can be annoying about the Ki84 is that if it is awaileble, almost everyone flies it, wich can be a bit boring as you allways meet the same opponent and dont have any variation, but saying they are Uber thats just not true, because they aren't http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Badsight.
05-15-2005, 04:47 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
I suppose you mean PRE v3.04.

You mean the days of overmodel I suspect.

Even after nards-removal, still on top of the heap. wrong

oh so

as in very

i meant as in patch v3.04 , but you wernt correct for any 3.x patch

while the Ki-84 is a deadly plane , its never been the best at any single aspect of this game

climb
dive
top speed
turning

why you dont complain about the real UFOs is beyond me , its just the Axis planes you dislike , the Allied "Optimistically-Moddeled" seem to be fine by you

PS , when are you going to let everyone know what your real login is , your USAF-Imitating squadmates are too embarrased & put you under orders to keep quiet ?

jacobs1966
06-09-2005, 01:48 PM
On the question of the Ki 84 a number of points have to be taken into account. Remember that this plane was the first to be built by the Japanese using Western doctrines.
It was fast, agile, had good climb, heavy armour plating for pilot survivablilty and finally had good puch in the weapons department.
Iam of the opinion that we like to think that no-one else could possibly build a better plane than us, ie Spitfire, Mustangs et all. After all history is written by the winners, not the lossers.
The blunt reality of the situation was that the Ki 84 could and did better most of the opposition it flew against. Luckily for those brave pilots pitted against it was the fact the war situation had all but nuitered its final impact, which was to little to late.
There are some excellent accounts of the Ki 84 and the of the men who flew it during WW2 and I would urge those of you who have an intrest in not just the plane, but also of the men who flew it to do some reading and learn something from there accounts as this is very important.
Again, on a purely personal level, I love flying the Ki 84. Many complain of boom and zoom tactics, vulching, big guns etc, (which I dont like) but we all like a particular plane for a particular reason. The thing is not to take it too seriously! Except for those out there who start firing from 10k away!
I enjoy going head to head with other pilots, seeing how they handle their mounts, hopefully not dying to soon (more often than not), trying to learn something about tactics and maneouvers, best man / plane win, nothing more, nothing less.

So just a few thoughts there, oh and finally, look forward to meeting you in the air!

irR4tiOn4L
06-09-2005, 07:05 PM
Wasnt the N1K1 the best fighter the Japanese pumped out in the war? Armored, fast, and yet capable of turning with the zero?

That is the real allied killer id like to see flyable.

Aero_Shodanjo
06-09-2005, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by jacobs1966:
On the question of the Ki 84 a number of points have to be taken into account. Remember that this plane was the first to be built by the Japanese using Western doctrines.
It was fast, agile, had good climb, heavy armour plating for pilot survivablilty and finally had good puch in the weapons department.


Err... I think that the Ki-61 is the first Japanese planes built using Western doctrine (style?)

Other than that, I agree with your post.

shinden1974
06-09-2005, 11:19 PM
Definitely, would love a flyable N1K1-J and the remote possibility of an N1K2-J would be great, along with the corsair my favorite combat plane (I guess my name gives away my favorite, only because it was so unique, love pushers).

Fortunately whatever I may like about these planes and the Ki-84...from a historical standpoint these planes were garbage. The manufacturing and maintenance for these planes was horrible and loads of these planes were found on the ground without firing a shot. There's a reason the slower and less capable Ki-100 is lumped in with these planes, it was the only plane that came close to western standards of reliability while staying somewhat competitive.

jacobs1966
06-10-2005, 11:21 AM
It appears that the Ki84 debate rages on!

I read on one page that flying the same plane over and over again in a dogfight is monotonous and boring. Exactly how are you guys fighting each other? Head on all the time? (ooops my pet hate has slipped out again, 10k shooters.)

Air combat is a unique spectrum of battle that exists nowhere else. One american pilot described it as a deadly game of 3D chess, only played out at 25,000 feet and with lead instead of chess pieces.

Each combat `should` be different.
Quote `evasive tactics, as far as I'm concerned, were dictated by the situation and were a reflex action` Herbert Kaiser, Luftwaffe, 68 confirmed kills.

Possibly the point I'm trying to make is that although the game is good (the best out there by far in my modest, humble opinion) it still is only a simulation, not the real thing. We are not trained pilots going into actual combat situations.

Its up to the players to try and make it different or else we would all just fly nice and level and take it in turn to cream the plane in front. Luckily though those who I have had the pleasure of going against are far from that, regardless of what plane I've been flying at the time.

So come on and get stuck in! Its not the winning thats important, its the taking part! Or so my PE teacher used to say, but then again I was **** at sports!

People please just chill out!

Ranting finished. For now anyway.

jacobs1966
06-12-2005, 05:41 AM
If you want to see some performance data on the Ki84 against some of its contempories then I suggest that you go and take a look at the following.....

`How good was the Ki-84?` at Hyperscales Gallery, an article by Andrew Johnson.

What you read may be suprising....

VW-IceFire
06-12-2005, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by irR4tiOn4L:
Wasnt the N1K1 the best fighter the Japanese pumped out in the war? Armored, fast, and yet capable of turning with the zero?

That is the real allied killer id like to see flyable.
I think arguably the Ki-84 was still the better of the two. But yeah, basically the N1K-2J was the best Japanese Navy fighter (although ground based) and the Ki-84 was the best Japanese Army fighter. Both suffered from a few problems here and there but were good planes that were definately upto the level of the Allies. They were far too late to have any impact but there were a handful in the hands of an experienced pilot.

I find online, the majority of people flying the Ki-84 are the same types who fly the Spitfire or La-7. They are new pilots struggling to get ahead against much more experienced opposition and these planes represent peak performance and firepower at very little cost to handling. The few times I have tangled with a good pilot in a Ki-84 was a time to remember.

Bull_dog_
06-12-2005, 11:23 AM
To the original question...I hold it in high regard in real life, but low regard in this game.

My low regard his improved somewhat since the early days but here goes.

#1 issue: Its fm is based on some post war test data that has it as a 420+mph aircraft. Most common sources have it as a 385-396mph aircraft. There are aircraft in the game where similar discrepencies are documented...p-38, hellcat etc but the Ki is the only one to get this treatment. It is still this way. It is faster than the Corsair at all altitudes..it was not in real life.

#2 issue: It had a simplified, super tough flight model when it was introduced and this persisted for several patches. This has been adjusted but it is still a very tough aircraft to down and it has magic anti flammatory fuel tanks. IJN aircraft had self sealing fuel tanks in the latter half of the war, but it is well documented that they were not effective...especially against US API ammumition. The Ki 84 was a little tougher, but still fragile in comparison to Western aircraft. It did have an achilles heel though, that is when the wing is hit, it became difficult to turn in...this did little to down the aircraft but you could hamper its fighting ability.

#3 Issue: When it was first introduced it had better high altitude performance than aircraft designed for high altitude. This has been corrected.

#4 Issue: Put all those things together and add 30mm cannons to the mix! Enough said

#5 issue: My sources state the Ki84 has fabric ailerons. It has a bat like roll rate which may or may not be accurate at low speed, but at high speed it would be a serious performance issue. The DM along with speed and roll rate made it once the most survivable aircraft in the game...it might still be, but I think the Fw gets that nod...post patch, it looks like the Fw got some titanium armor so I doubt that is the case any more.

Summary...the Ki 84 was without a doubt in my opinion, the best Japanese fighter of the war. It is just modelled too good in some aspects such as speed, high speed roll rate and damage modelling. It should be quick, agile, a good climber etc but it was always a step behind contemporary allied aircraft of the era.

Today...I'd say of the popular, actually flown prop driven aircraft...my best aircraft rankings go like this:

#1 Bf 109K...fastest with best climb with 30mm cannons and now it has high speed elevators to boot
#2 Fw 190D...tough decision here but since 151/20's have been improved, this plane is untouchable if flown right
#3 Fw 190A9...Speed, fire power to spare, roll rate and so very survivable...may even be #2
#4 Ki-84...C especially but even B model...what is not to like...got those glass wings though. In real life, this aircraft would probably not have made the top 10 though
#5 P-51 Mustang...the glass wing and weak .50's are the only thing keeping it from being higher...Post patch it seems to be faster on the deck too. The elevator is overbaked though...it should be best in class at high speed manuevering but not to the point where the aircraft comes apart.

For all the spit whining that goes on...it isn't anywhere close to these aircraft...just to slow and too easy to run away from...wait till the tempest and spit mk XIV...those two aircraft might just change the look of this list for me. We'll have to see how the P-38L late comes out now...it has some interesting traits with a mountaing goat like climb and accelaration beyond anything I've seen in this game...still got concrete elevators though.

F19_Orheim
06-12-2005, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
It's not, it just took on a stigma as being "uber" a while back....Now I believe simply a sour grapes thing with those that fly allied.

For myself I simply do not care for the late war planes....Mid to early my preferance as times were changing...No longer was it turn and burn with zoom and boom mixed.......As folks had learned speed, power, and quick single pass attacks was what really was getting kills so designs changed to accomodate that.

Zoom and boom....Knock out punches in a second...Don't get me wrong, that's smart, the way to go.....Otherwise the Dr1 would be king. But I like it where you have to struggle to turn, to get and stay on an opponents 6...and where skill and tactics rulled the day, just not seeing them first.

So for many late war planes start to detract from the "Dogfighting" skills that were required. So 43 and before simply more fun for many.

gotta love a turnburner.... but darn it, we waste a lot of joysticks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif