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Calvarok
08-20-2011, 11:37 PM
One of the many things that pleasantly surprised me about Brotherhood was that they had taken the time to give stationary blend groups audiable dialogue, which changed depending on if the group was made up of nobles, or poor folk. Each dialogue involved one character telling an anecdote from their daily life, then there was a pause, and the same voice said a different one. I think it would be great if this was expanded on for Revelations and future AC games.

Characters could tell their stories with other characters reacting to it by inturruping, or remarking on the story otherwise. This could lead to some humorous exchanges. It would be neat if blend groups were structured so that the two conversing characters were looking at each other, their lips moving when they talked,a nd if bled groups were not all in perfect circles. Ezio should also change his body language when he enters the blend group, like a greeting, and maybe have a bit of dialogue of his own, or just pretend to listen to what the people are saying.

Another cool thing would be if when guards are approaching the blend group, Ezio said "keep quiet" or something under his breath to the people in it.

It would also be nice if there were more crowd models who wear hoods in the color of Ezio's robes, but from the screenshots, I think that that is indeed the case.

kriegerdesgottes
08-20-2011, 11:48 PM
I'm with ya on pretty much everything except maybe the part where ezio whispers for everyone to keep quiet. I think that would be a bit too far as there could be people who aren't with him in what he is doing and it would just draw attention to him for doing it but I like all your other ideas.

Turkiye96
08-21-2011, 03:33 AM
im with you on this too ( exept for the whisper part as not many people wana harbour an assassin) also i do think they have expanded this into revelations ( though not as much... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif ) they are going to be byzantine people who are gona support the templars and like say bad stuff about the assassin's while the Turks will be against the byzantine templars and support you... ( but i hope they add a much more complex dialoug system to the crowds with much more variety...)

ShaneO7K
08-21-2011, 03:51 AM
It was definetly a great feature and I hope they build on it, it really helps bring the player into the world that little bit more.

If certain members of the crowds would talk about Ezio's past assassinations and their opinions on the events. For example crowds in upper class areas would tend to dislike these assassinations while the crowds in lower class areas could possibly feel inspired and think of Ezio as a hero.

I just think small details like this would make the game that much better.

Dralight
08-21-2011, 03:58 AM
You made some interesting suggestions and agree that this would be a great thing to improve on for Revelations, especially about having Ezio change his body language while in blend groups so he does actually "blend" in more and seems more like an actual part of the group rather than just standing there.

I also think Ezio looks a bit out of place in some blend groups (like groups of poor people) considering their clothing is completely different to Ezio's, so like you said, it would be good to see other npcs who look similar to Ezio in clothing.

ShaneO7K
08-21-2011, 04:04 AM
Originally posted by Dralight:
You made some interesting suggestions and agree that this would be a great thing to improve on for Revelations, especially about having Ezio change his body language while in blend groups so he does actually "blend" in more and seems more like an actual part of the group rather than just standing there.

I also think Ezio looks a bit out of place in some blend groups (like groups of poor people) considering their clothing is completely different to Ezio's, so like you said, it would be good to see other npcs who look similar to Ezio in clothing.

I think his new robes definetly fit more to blending as I get a more old traveller look off him so he isn't the eye sore in the crowd as he was in past games.

Dralight
08-21-2011, 04:15 AM
Originally posted by dead_gunner187:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dralight:
You made some interesting suggestions and agree that this would be a great thing to improve on for Revelations, especially about having Ezio change his body language while in blend groups so he does actually "blend" in more and seems more like an actual part of the group rather than just standing there.

I also think Ezio looks a bit out of place in some blend groups (like groups of poor people) considering their clothing is completely different to Ezio's, so like you said, it would be good to see other npcs who look similar to Ezio in clothing.

I think his new robes definetly fit more to blending as I get a more old traveller look off him so he isn't the eye sore in the crowd as he was in past games. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah that's true. I think the colour is more subtle and the lack of a cape should make him fit in more.

sassinscreed
08-21-2011, 04:40 AM
Originally posted by Calvarok:
One of the many things that pleasantly surprised me about Brotherhood was that they had taken the time to give stationary blend groups audiable dialogue, which changed depending on if the group was made up of nobles, or poor folk. Each dialogue involved one character telling an anecdote from their daily life, then there was a pause, and the same voice said a different one. I think it would be great if this was expanded on for Revelations and future AC games.

Characters could tell their stories with other characters reacting to it by inturruping, or remarking on the story otherwise. This could lead to some humorous exchanges. It would be neat if blend groups were structured so that the two conversing characters were looking at each other, their lips moving when they talked,a nd if bled groups were not all in perfect circles. Ezio should also change his body language when he enters the blend group, like a greeting, and maybe have a bit of dialogue of his own, or just pretend to listen to what the people are saying.

Another cool thing would be if when guards are approaching the blend group, Ezio said "keep quiet" or something under his breath to the people in it.

It would also be nice if there were more crowd models who wear hoods in the color of Ezio's robes, but from the screenshots, I think that that is indeed the case.

that's great idea

shobhit7777777
08-21-2011, 06:30 AM
Ezio should also change his body language when he enters the blend group, like a greeting, and maybe have a bit of dialogue of his own, or just pretend to listen to what the people are saying.

Excellent Idea! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
That is why blending in MP seems more believable.
Assassin's Creed is a game whose USP was Social Stealth. AC2 did a great deal in building onto that with the inclusion of a diversion system (bodies, money, thieves, courtesans) and true social blending. But IMO they need to constantly evolve this gameplay mechanic of Social Stealth here and idea

Different Social Groups for blending: As one poster has said that whenever Ezio in 10,000$ robes and shiny armour blends with a bunch of potato sack adorned peasants it kills the immersion. How about you have social groups of different social statures and classes which ACTUALLY affects your level of blending.
Suppose you blend in with peasants the guards will notice you from farther away due to the very obvious visual sign and the fact that you piqued the Peasants curiosity.
Blend in with higher class citizens and the guards need to be really close to ID you.

One thing that I really liked that the Crowd in Turkey is similarly attired to Ezio in terms of the robes and colour...sure Ezio does stand out but this time he looks like he belongs.

ProdiGurl
08-21-2011, 06:53 AM
(Shobhit7777777) Different Social Groups for blending: As one poster has said that whenever Ezio in 10,000$ robes and shiny armour blends with a bunch of potato sack adorned peasants it kills the immersion. How about you have social groups of different social statures and classes which ACTUALLY affects your level of blending.
Suppose you blend in with peasants the guards will notice you from farther away due to the very obvious visual sign and the fact that you piqued the Peasants curiosity.
Blend in with higher class citizens and the guards need to be really close to ID you.

Ya that's a good concept but then you won't really see higher class elites in pauper towns and you're forever stuck trying to locate wealthier groups wherever you are.

I guess it could be tweaked, but it may be a smaller detail that's just too much extra work & time in the scale of making such a huge game.
?

>> (Shobhit) One thing that I really liked that the Crowd in Turkey is similarly attired to Ezio in terms of the robes and colour...sure Ezio does stand out but this time he looks like he belongs.<<

Speaking of looking like he belongs, to me, Ezio looks like he belongs in Michael Jackson's "Smooth Criminal" video when he puts on those plate greaves - they look alot like spats to me & they're really distracting lol

piratprince
08-21-2011, 07:07 AM
Thats a wonderful idea you have here.

This is something which could work with some helping mission as well.

Its a good thing to have with an advanced morality and notoriety system as well. Like i already mentioned some days earlier.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...381045939#4381045939 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/8361054939?r=4381045939#4381045939)

Social Responsibility for the crowd is something i miss in the AC world.


This will improve the experience. I hope they will put the single player game in one disc. For multiplayer i really dont care but it will be great to have enough space for an improved single player game. AC should ship on two disc.

One for each mode.

Blind2Society
08-21-2011, 11:35 AM
I'm glad I found this thread. Your ideas are good and would help the game.

I had an idea myself that would have mainly the same effect. In AC the investigations did more than what I've heard others mention. The investigations gave life to the crowd. In ACII and ACB the crowd was simply NPCs and that was it. In AC1 the evesdrop missions and such made it feel as though the NPCs were individuals. It made it feel as though they played a part in the events that took place.

Things like a basket maker carrying incriminating letters, evesdropping on a random peasant who overheard something or a guard who works patrols and beating up people for information gave a feeling of everyone around you playing a part. In ACII and ACB this feeling was gone, all the NPCs were, were fillers. Just there to take up space. In ACB there was a reason for this and, frankly in my mind, is what made ACB a lesser game. The thing was, we knew who our enemy was and what they were doing the whole time, and anything we didn't know we got from other main characters.

For me at least, this quite significantly detracts from immersion. If you look at games like Fallout or better yet Final Fantasy7/8, you could have conversations with NPCs and interact with them in general. This added a whole other leve of immersion. In AC Ubisoft used their own methods to make the crowd feel like part of the story, the fact that they got rid of this aspect, I think really makes AC a far superior game in the more important aspects. I think they strayed more towards how cool the kill animations are and how big the explosion are rather than some of the more immersion related aspects.

I apologise for rambling, I'm finding it difficult to formulate my thoughts today for some reason. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif I hope you all understand what I was try to convey.

shobhit7777777
08-21-2011, 02:37 PM
@

Ya that's a good concept but then you won't really see higher class elites in pauper towns and you're forever stuck trying to locate wealthier groups wherever you are.

Have a solution for that as well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

the absence of rich social group would be balanced with a greater frequency of Thieves, Courtesans and Gypsies in the 'Poor' section

Another interesting dynamic would be an increase in the number of Turkish guards in the rich sections which leads to in-fighting between your templar/Byzantine chasers and the guards.


Speaking of looking like he belongs, to me, Ezio looks like he belongs in Michael Jackson's "Smooth Criminal" video when he puts on those plate greaves - they look alot like spats to me & they're really distracting lol

*reads post, watches youtube vid of 'smooth criminal'...all 9 minutes of it, is confused*

Whatchu talkin bout girl?? lol

If you're saying that the armour is distracting..yes I agree. Need armour removal option...or at least don't force us to buy it like in Brotherhood.

Calvarok
08-21-2011, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by Blind2Society:
I'm glad I found this thread. Your ideas are good and would help the game.

I had an idea myself that would have mainly the same effect. In AC the investigations did more than what I've heard others mention. The investigations gave life to the crowd. In ACII and ACB the crowd was simply NPCs and that was it. In AC1 the evesdrop missions and such made it feel as though the NPCs were individuals. It made it feel as though they played a part in the events that took place.

Things like a basket maker carrying incriminating letters, evesdropping on a random peasant who overheard something or a guard who works patrols and beating up people for information gave a feeling of everyone around you playing a part. In ACII and ACB this feeling was gone, all the NPCs were, were fillers. Just there to take up space. In ACB there was a reason for this and, frankly in my mind, is what made ACB a lesser game. The thing was, we knew who our enemy was and what they were doing the whole time, and anything we didn't know we got from other main characters.

For me at least, this quite significantly detracts from immersion. If you look at games like Fallout or better yet Final Fantasy7/8, you could have conversations with NPCs and interact with them in general. This added a whole other leve of immersion. In AC Ubisoft used their own methods to make the crowd feel like part of the story, the fact that they got rid of this aspect, I think really makes AC a far superior game in the more important aspects. I think they strayed more towards how cool the kill animations are and how big the explosion are rather than some of the more immersion related aspects.

I apologise for rambling, I'm finding it difficult to formulate my thoughts today for some reason. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif I hope you all understand what I was try to convey.
Most of the interactions with NPCs in AC1 were the same as interactions with some in brotherhood. In quite a few side missions, Ezio interacts directly with civilians and architects, by beating them up for info, stealing from or planting information on them, and even in one particually interesting mission, framing a borgia noble for murder.

AC1 was cool in that some investigations had you listen in on civillians talking amongst themselves, but Brotherhood had you interact directly with civillians to start every templar agents mission, and it felt so much less shallow than AC1's eavesdropping.

AC1 did have some interesting eavesdropping things, but overally, with the more varied types of NPCs, ambient conversations, and more civilian interaction directly with Ezio, they felt more real to me.

I would agree that eavesdropping would be cool, and it sounds like it will be in, as that's one of the eagle sense's special abilities: enhanced hearing, used to eavesdrop or tell how nervous guards are, by listening to their heartbeat.

Man, Eagle sense is so cool!

Blind2Society
08-21-2011, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by Calvarok:
Most of the interactions with NPCs in AC1 were the same as interactions with some in brotherhood. In quite a few side missions, Ezio interacts directly with civilians and architects, by beating them up for info, stealing from or planting information on them, and even in one particually interesting mission, framing a borgia noble for murder.

AC1 was cool in that some investigations had you listen in on civillians talking amongst themselves, but Brotherhood had you interact directly with civillians to start every templar agents mission, and it felt so much less shallow than AC1's eavesdropping.

AC1 did have some interesting eavesdropping things, but overally, with the more varied types of NPCs, ambient conversations, and more civilian interaction directly with Ezio, they felt more real to me.
I'm going to have to disagree with this entirly. I felt the exact opposite, that ACB's interactions were much more shallow.

shobhit7777777
08-21-2011, 07:20 PM
AC1 was cool in that some investigations had you listen in on civillians talking amongst themselves, but Brotherhood had you interact directly with civillians to start every templar agents mission, and it felt so much less shallow than AC1's eavesdropping.

the entire investigation gameplay in AC1 was a brilliant idea but flawed in execution.
IMO they could have made tthe eavesdropping mini-game more 'pro-active' on the players part rather than sitting, lock on & WIN!

1. Ezio/Altair ID a potential conversation worthy of eavesdropping...or locate two guys who the know are associates of the target.

2. They then need to constantly maintain a position where they can hear the conversation AND remain undetected.

3. The group keeps on the move and you experience drops in the conversation audio as a result, you also get disturbance when people walk about you, sellers yelling and the general crowd commotion.

4. You need to constantly and discreetly move around to hear the conversation

5. Attach a percentage that needs to be 'heard' in order to successfully eavesdrop. Say 65%.

This makes it a dynamic, authentic mechanic rather than a repetitive chore.

Blind2Society
08-21-2011, 07:22 PM
And this is where a game a year becomes a problem...

Calvarok
08-21-2011, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by Blind2Society:
And this is where a game a year becomes a problem...
Not really. Games that are in development for two year cycles are usually not in full gear content-wise until the first year is almost over. Implementing such a system would not be a problem if Ubisoft had decided to work on it. But quite honestly, they have more important things to worry about, such a feature would be better saved for AC3.

I agree that Brotherhood's civvie interaction was never as good as it could have been, but at least you interacted with them directly some times, instead of always observing. Brotherhood had far too many "observe eavesdrop and follow" missions in its story mode.

GunnarGunderson
08-21-2011, 07:41 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpRkT9JxdnE

Just as long as Ubisoft does it properly

kriegerdesgottes
08-21-2011, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by Blind2Society:
And this is where a game a year becomes a problem...

I was just thinking that exact same thing.

dxsxhxcx
08-21-2011, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by shobhit7777777:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">AC1 was cool in that some investigations had you listen in on civillians talking amongst themselves, but Brotherhood had you interact directly with civillians to start every templar agents mission, and it felt so much less shallow than AC1's eavesdropping.

the entire investigation gameplay in AC1 was a brilliant idea but flawed in execution.
IMO they could have made tthe eavesdropping mini-game more 'pro-active' on the players part rather than sitting, lock on & WIN!

1. Ezio/Altair ID a potential conversation worthy of eavesdropping...or locate two guys who the know are associates of the target.

2. They then need to constantly maintain a position where they can hear the conversation AND remain undetected.

3. The group keeps on the move and you experience drops in the conversation audio as a result, you also get disturbance when people walk about you, sellers yelling and the general crowd commotion.

4. You need to constantly and discreetly move around to hear the conversation

5. Attach a percentage that needs to be 'heard' in order to successfully eavesdrop. Say 65%.

This makes it a dynamic, authentic mechanic rather than a repetitive chore. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


good idea, what if the information we'll get from this eavesdrop has the ability to shape the place where we'll kill our target?!

example:

- once we start the mission, we'll have a "x" amount of time to reach the meeting place and identify our targets using the eagle sense;

Situation 1 - We are able to reach the meeting place in time:

1. we'll hear the conversation, let's use a conversation between 2 people who work at our target's mansion as example;

2. these people will have a casual chat and then will talk about the reforms they're doing at the mansion, they'll say they didn't had time to finish the east side of the mansion and that they weren't able to place one of the windows in the second floor and because of this there'll be only 3 or 4 guards there at the night taking care of the place;

3. if we are able to hear this part of the chat between them, once we reach the mansion to kill our target, if we go to the east side of the mansion we'll see the hole in the wall where was supposed to have a window and we'll be able to enter the mansion from there...


Situation 2 - We don't reach the meeting place in time:

1. if this happens, another timer will appear in the screen showing us how much time left for the end of the meeting;

2. we reach the meeting place before the meet ends but we aren't able to get the "usefull" information;

3. when we go to the mansion to kill our target, if we go to the east side there'll be a window there and we'll need to find another way to enter the mansion;

luckyto
08-22-2011, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by Calvarok:
One of the many things that pleasantly surprised me about Brotherhood was that they had taken the time to give stationary blend groups audiable dialogue, which changed depending on if the group was made up of nobles, or poor folk. Each dialogue involved one character telling an anecdote from their daily life, then there was a pause, and the same voice said a different one. I think it would be great if this was expanded on for Revelations and future AC games.

Characters could tell their stories with other characters reacting to it by inturruping, or remarking on the story otherwise. This could lead to some humorous exchanges. It would be neat if blend groups were structured so that the two conversing characters were looking at each other, their lips moving when they talked,a nd if bled groups were not all in perfect circles. Ezio should also change his body language when he enters the blend group, like a greeting, and maybe have a bit of dialogue of his own, or just pretend to listen to what the people are saying.

Another cool thing would be if when guards are approaching the blend group, Ezio said "keep quiet" or something under his breath to the people in it.

It would also be nice if there were more crowd models who wear hoods in the color of Ezio's robes, but from the screenshots, I think that that is indeed the case.

Yes, that was a brilliant stroke.

Sevenofnine-st
08-22-2011, 09:39 AM
I don't know if this has ever been mentioned but it's something that's always bugged me when it comes to morality and since we're talking about blending with the crowd and interaction with NPCs, I may as well bring it up.

There are times when I had Ezio accidentally hit an NPC or make them fall over and I really wish he could have apologized for it. Of course if Ezio did this while he was running away from a bunch of guards, there is no time for niceties. But other than that, it should be something he can do. I know this sounds trivial but it does bug me because it makes Ezio come off as totally rude and uncouth. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

GallopRider
08-22-2011, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by Sevenofnine-st:
I don't know if this has ever been mentioned but it's something that's always bugged me when it comes to morality and since we're talking about blending with the crowd and interaction with NPCs, I may as well bring it up.

There are times when I had Ezio accidentally hit an NPC or make them fall over and I really wish he could have apologized for it. Of course if Ezio did this while he was running away from a bunch of guards, there is no time for niceties. But other than that, it should be something he can do. I know this sounds trivial but it does bug me because it makes Ezio come off as totally rude and uncouth. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

This! When walking about the towns, I always felt bad for those poor merchants with the crates I accidently bumped. A simple "sorry" would suffice, because we all know Ezio isn't a rude guy.

Calvarok
08-22-2011, 12:40 PM
A game a year allows them to overhaul an entire system. Brotherhood was not the best example of this, because it focused on the presentation and mission structure side of things, rather than meaningful gameplay updates. But even brotherhood updated almost the entire sandbox of weapons in some way. I trust Alexandre much more than I trust any other creative director for AC, because he has talked about giving the player missions where they can choose how they want to complete it, and giving them tools that allow them to do that in more creative ways, he's talked about difficulty being high enough that the player feels challenged and a sense of accomplishment, he's talked about how Assassin's Creed is really about exploring envirnonments and finding things to do, after you've completed all the missions, and how those missions popping up organically makes the city feel more alive.

He's talked about allowing enemies to learn some of ezio's abilities, and use some of his tools, such as blending, or bombs, or maybe even the hookblade, so that as you grow in ability throughout the game, the enemy grows too.

And he's talked about how the story must be complemented by the gameplay. If a great triumph in the story is just another boring mission in gameplay, it has less impact. Missions need to have the level of excitement, or level of sadness integrated into gameplay, in order to feel impactful to the player, and when they player gets a reward in the story, he should get a tangible reward in-game.

No offense to Patrice, but he generally talked about things without really explaining how it would impact gameplay. Alexandre has actually given examples of situations in which these features would shine, and everything we've seen in-game has matched what he's said, so far.

A year is enough with the right people.

EDIT: I'd LOVE Ezio to say a little "Mia Dispace" whenever he bumps into someone. But not in a chase, obviously.