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XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 11:23 AM
After that I have flown many missions in IL-2 and FB and made my conclusions that the German planes were not so bad in the reality as they are in the game. But Oleg has convinced me that all planes have the correct aerodynamic characteristics.
I made another conclusion; I'm not a good virtual pilot.

Some days ago I looked in the book "The development of tactics during the Great Patriotic war 1941-1945" by General K.S.Kolganov. ( Razvitije taktiki Sovjetskoj Armii v gody Velikoj Otertjestvennoj vojny 1941-1945 )
And looked at the chapter "Protection against attack from the air during the first period" which means before the battle of Stalingrad. He writes among many other things "The fascist air force had air superiority which forced our bombers to fly at night"
If the Luftwaffe pilots achieved that with the Me against I16, Yak1 Migs and Lags I must salute them because they must have been distinguished pilots.
According to official statistics most of the aircraft losses where against the English and the Americans during the war.

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 11:23 AM
After that I have flown many missions in IL-2 and FB and made my conclusions that the German planes were not so bad in the reality as they are in the game. But Oleg has convinced me that all planes have the correct aerodynamic characteristics.
I made another conclusion; I'm not a good virtual pilot.

Some days ago I looked in the book "The development of tactics during the Great Patriotic war 1941-1945" by General K.S.Kolganov. ( Razvitije taktiki Sovjetskoj Armii v gody Velikoj Otertjestvennoj vojny 1941-1945 )
And looked at the chapter "Protection against attack from the air during the first period" which means before the battle of Stalingrad. He writes among many other things "The fascist air force had air superiority which forced our bombers to fly at night"
If the Luftwaffe pilots achieved that with the Me against I16, Yak1 Migs and Lags I must salute them because they must have been distinguished pilots.
According to official statistics most of the aircraft losses where against the English and the Americans during the war.

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 11:41 AM
The Luftwaffe pilots were good, but the 109s were definitely superior aircraft at that earlier stage of the war.

There seems to be a consensus in the community the Russian planes in FB are over modeled.

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 12:01 PM
There sure are many issues with the game, many suspicious tings, no doubt about that here.
The rollrate of the P-39 is too high, while that of the P40 has been butchered below RL data with the latest patch. They should be vise-versa.
I believe also that the climb of some 109s, like standard G-6 and some else, is too low (or at least the auto pitch is screwed which results in a too low performance once on auto).
Rollrate of the 190 is too high (or doesn't notably decrease in any manner even at very high speeds).

What makes me wondering the most however are the dramatic changes to the "always most accurate" FMs in every other patch. What's that all about? As the hardest and most common change to all those FMs I would like to mention the decrease of control authority in all a/c except for the 190 (and MiG?) with increasing speed. While this is of course resonable, and we had it already before, even though in a much smaller scale, I seriously wonder on what factors the scale of that control authority decrease on the different a/c is based on. For a fact, the loss in control authority with increasing speed is the biggest I've yet experienced in any Sim (played Warbirds, AH, Target Rabaul, and plenty of offline sims) and it makes B&Zing very hard. The point is not that I question the general decision of Oleg here, but what I'm questioning is the relative outcome of that.
How's it possible that an a/c layed out for high speeds, like the Jug (at least d-10 and d-22), suffers from quite heavy loss of control authority, especially on the elevator, while the Jug was known to handle "very light", albeit being a heavy craft itself. AND, while the 190 almost loses no authority at all? I don't see how there could be such a huge difference. Even the 109, which was not known for great control authority at high speeds (at least on the elevator), is better than the Jug here in all axis. To me, that doesn't make any sense.

Regards
heartc

=38=OIAE

47|FC=-

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 12:17 PM
arcadeace wrote:
- The Luftwaffe pilots were good, but the 109s were
- definitely superior aircraft at that earlier stage
- of the war.
-
- There seems to be a consensus in the community the
- Russian planes in FB are over modeled.
-

Sigh... if you think about it, then how DO you know, that the Bf-109's were superiour aircraft in the early part of the war? That it was the machine and not the man?

An example: The Polish airforce had a fighter called PZL P.11c (it's in the game, go have a look and fly it). It was an extremely outdated machine, but nonetheless it downed 105-110 German planes in 1939 with the loss of 26 of their own. Now, does that make it a superiour machine? Clearly it wasn't. It's about training, experience, tactic and doctrine.

Technically speaking the Bf-109 was outdated in 1941. When it managed to soldier on until the end of the war, it's not as much a testament of a great design, but of a skilled airforce.

cheers/slush

http://dk.groups.yahoo.com/group/aktivitetsdage/files/Eurotrolls.gif

You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 06:11 PM
Doh. That happens when you have limited time at hand and write down your stuff in a hurry. I forgot to add something to my posting: While what I wrote was meant to acknowledge that I think there are indeed issues in the game, I cannot agree with the topic starter. Because, and I'm sorry, it's again what I consider the basic Luftwhining. There is no doubt whatsoever to any pilot with knowledge about Air Combat that the Luftwaffe has the edge in early war. And I talk in game here, not only RL.
The Luftwaffe has the speed advantage in early war, while the early 109s still turn very good at the same time, and good high speed maneuverability as well. If we count in the G2 as early war as well, they also have great firepower with a 2x gunpod add on, which has (at least to me and for my tactics) no impact on maneuverability whatsoever.

Just a little tip here: Go search for sites on the web about Air Combat tactics, via a search engine like google.com

Enter "fighter tactics", "Air Combat Maneuvering", or "high yoyo" etc. I would think that ppl are already aware of the great capabilities of the Internet, but I often had to learn many are not.

And one thing, where you will see success in your fighting from the first moment you use it, and it's also not very difficult to do:
When you engage a better turner than yourself, say, an I-16 with your 109 - you come up from behind either co-E or with superior E - he sees you and performs a break turn - the thing you will do is pull up approx 60-70 degree, roll to the side he's breaking off to (putting your lift vector on him) and you will end up above and behind him, inverted, pull down and roll back. You neglect his angle advantage in doing so (you decrease the aspect angle), while at the same time ending up with an E-advantage, or at least above him. Don't do it in a hurry. Well, it depends on the situation, but generally you can do it gently and calmly - take your time, and repeat it as often as neccessary. He will only bleed of more and more of his E by flying stupid breakturns, while you engage in the so-called "High Yoyo". Another good maneuver is the low-yoyo, which allows a worse turner to turn inside a better one, with the disadvantage of a higher aspect angle, making a fire solution more difficult. Read about that stuff, and you'll love flying Luftwaffe, AT LEAST in early war.

Regards
heartc

=38=OIAE

47|FC=-

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 06:33 PM
Slush69 wrote:

- Technically speaking the Bf-109 was outdated in
- 1941.

Can you elaborate on this? Or should I take it without proof? What better than G2 design do you know in '42?



<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 07:17 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- Slush69 wrote:
-
-- Technically speaking the Bf-109 was outdated in
-- 1941.

Was it? the Bf-109 was actually at it's "technical" best in 1941 with the introduction of the F series (early G's were also very good).

A more correct assessment would be to say the 109 was approaching the end of it's development potential at this time. As the G series progressesed, designers had to make more and more unfavourable trade-offs too meet the speed and armament demands that were being put on the 109's airframe, most typically being worsened handling and manuverability.

Still, the 109 remained an effective fighter to the end of the war, but it collected several unpleasant handicaps to maintain that effectiveness.

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 10:43 PM
You could also say the opposite, one side must have been staffed by total boobs to lose with their issued plane set.

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 11:02 PM
Hmmmmmmm.... I am a deacent online pilot and in some situations I can outfly most of the players I go up against. Still, in some other situtaions I get shot down as a claypigeon over and over again. Why is that? Well, to me it´s very simple: Tactics! Most of the players who fly German planes use the "high altitude tactics" -Go high, dive down, attack and climb back up. It´s a high energy kind of flying and when used correct it´s extremly effective. I prefer Russian planes, the La7 is my baby, and when challenged at low altitudes I usually downs Me 109:s and FW 190:s without any problems. I´m pretty sure about that there where big differenses in German, Russian, English, Polish and American planes. I don´t spend to much time in analyzing these diffrenses, but I do know that if you find out how your favourite plane handles in different situations you can become an Ace in allmost any fighter available in the game. To simulate every plane with 100% accurazy is allmost impossible..it is after all only a game.

T-P

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 11:14 PM
zugfuhrer wrote:

- According to official statistics most of the
- aircraft losses where against the English and the
- Americans during the war.


it would be nice, if you could show these "official statistics " .



http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 11:20 PM
zugfuhrer wrote:
- After that I have flown many missions in IL-2 and FB
- and made my conclusions that the German planes were
- not so bad in the reality as they are in the game.
- But Oleg has convinced me that all planes have the
- correct aerodynamic characteristics.


Do you have a Ph.D in physics, have you tested the planes in a tube and flown all of them, are you WWII pilot veteran? If not, then what the heck are you doing claming that Oleg's team modeled planes badly lol.
You should at least try to quate some credible source or any stats.


http://www.uploadit.org/files/131003-361067-med.jpg


"One day there is certain to be another order of the Soviet Union. It will be the Order of Zhukov, and that order will be prized by every man who admires courage, vision, fortitude, and determination in a soldier". -Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1945

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 11:27 PM
- Technically speaking the Bf-109 was outdated in
- 1941.


In 1941 the 109F-4 was argueably the best fighter in widespread service with any airforce in the world.


<center><img src= "http://perso.wanadoo.fr/christophe.arribat/stoffwjabo.jpg" height=205 width=385>

<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

British Air Marshall, Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 11:30 PM
shoot, you think the germans have it tough? The 190 is the most deadly plane in the game!

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 11:37 PM
Aflak wrote:
- shoot, you think the germans have it tough? The 190
- is the most deadly plane in the game!
-
-

Shsssh! its supposed to be a secret /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 12:27 PM
What I meant was, that in 1941 the Bf-109 was a design that was approaching the end of its life phase. There were other designs out there, that were far more technically advanced and had a greater potential for further development.

And to those that claim that the Bf-109/whatever was the "best" fighter in the world in 1941, there's only this to say: There's no such thing as the "best" fighter, there's only the most suitable fighter under certain conditions. Or do you really believe that the extremely short-ranged Bf-109E was the "best" fighter in the Battle of Britain 1 year earlier?

cheers/slush

http://dk.groups.yahoo.com/group/aktivitetsdage/files/Eurotrolls.gif

You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 01:21 PM
Desant_CCCP wrote:
-
-
- Do you have a Ph.D in physics, have you tested the
- planes in a tube and flown all of them, are you WWII
- pilot veteran? If not, then what the heck are you
- doing claming that Oleg's team modeled planes badly
- lol.
- You should at least try to quate some credible
- source or any stats.

Do you have a Ph.D in Geography? How do you know thw world is round? Are you an Astronaut or ever flown in a space craft? How do you know the sun is 93 Million miles away?

Because you can read?

Well, perhaps YOU cant, because Zugfuhrer said "Oleg convinced me that all planes have the correct aerodynamic characteristics." Then he reads about Soviet tactics and comes to the conclusion that the Luftwaffe must have had some great pilots to be so successful early in the war.

Oh, I know, his name sounds kinda German, so he has to be a Luftwhiner, right?

Quote stats! (Oh... well... Your stats are wrong!)
Show pictures! (Oh... well... Your pictures are wrong!)
Show documents! (Oh... well... Your documents are wrong!)

Whatever guy...

My father taught me a long time ago not to argue with idiots. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif




http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/Fehler.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 04:30 PM
Fehler wrote:

-
- My father taught me a long time ago not to argue
- with idiots. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


Your father shoul've taught you to support you arguments. All you did was to say the planes in FB are crap.
You dont argue with "idiots" because you simply cannot argue.

http://www.uploadit.org/files/131003-361067-med.jpg


"One day there is certain to be another order of the Soviet Union. It will be the Order of Zhukov, and that order will be prized by every man who admires courage, vision, fortitude, and determination in a soldier". -Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1945

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 05:57 PM
Slush69 wrote:
- What I meant was, that in 1941 the Bf-109 was a
- design that was approaching the end of its life
- phase. There were other designs out there, that were
- far more technically advanced and had a greater
- potential for further development.
-
- And to those that claim that the Bf-109/whatever was
- the "best" fighter in the world in 1941, there's
- only this to say: There's no such thing as the
- "best" fighter, there's only the most suitable
- fighter under certain conditions. Or do you really
- believe that the extremely short-ranged Bf-109E was
- the "best" fighter in the Battle of Britain 1 year
- earlier?
-
- cheers/slush

Thats one of the great "what ifs" of the BoB. How differently would things have turned out if the 109's had had an effective drop tank (which actually became available a few months after the critical phase of the battle).

One other thing on the 109 that I remember was a comment from Mr. Maddox re: the planes performance on these forums sometime ago. His opinion was, out of all the planes in the game the 109 had the most versatile performance with altitude. That is to say it was the plane whose performance had the least variation from the mean over changing altitude.

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 06:08 PM
if you take eric brown serious :
at the end of the war, the 109 was still a "good " allround plane.


http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

ZG77_Nagual
10-28-2003, 06:15 PM
In my flying of luftwaffe planes and vvs planes - at this point I think only the p39s climb is a bit too much. I mostly fly the 190 - which on a 1943 server can be a bit frustrating - what with yaks, las and p39s - but it's really only the p39s that seem a bit over the top - and that only in climb and, perhaps stall speed - though I'm less sure of the latter.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/whiner.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 06:34 PM
Think about this for a Fact, the Finnish airforce with totally outdated planes (including the Brewsters we fly in FB) totally decimated the Russians.

I can harldy believe that Under 50 Brewsters survived so long in the war and killed so many russian planes. I almost have a hard time believeing it. This in no way could ever be done in FB.

Im playing the Fins right now, and Brewsters die alot. If this was history we be out of them by 1942.



Message Edited on 10/28/0311:49PM by malkuth

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 07:38 PM
Desant_CCCP wrote:
-
- Fehler wrote:
-
--
-- My father taught me a long time ago not to argue
-- with idiots. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
-
- Your father shoul've taught you to support you
- arguments. All you did was to say the planes in FB
- are crap.
- You dont argue with "idiots" because you simply
- cannot argue.

Well, I just went over the whole of the thread previous to this posting and Fehler never said the planes in FB are crap. In fact, what you responded to was his first post and in it he says nothing of the sort.

So maybe you CAN'T read.

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 08:17 PM
LilHorse wrote:
-
- Desant_CCCP wrote:
--
-- Fehler wrote:
--
---
--- My father taught me a long time ago not to argue
--- with idiots. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
--
--
-- Your father shoul've taught you to support you
-- arguments. All you did was to say the planes in FB
-- are crap.
-- You dont argue with "idiots" because you simply
-- cannot argue.
-
- Well, I just went over the whole of the thread
- previous to this posting and Fehler never said the
- planes in FB are crap. In fact, what you responded
- to was his first post and in it he says nothing of
- the sort.
-
- So maybe you CAN'T read.
-
-

Here's the deal, genius. He responded to my post to a different person, therefore supporting whatever he had to say and did not presented any hard facts.
So maybe you think before you post.



http://www.uploadit.org/files/131003-361067-med.jpg


"One day there is certain to be another order of the Soviet Union. It will be the Order of Zhukov, and that order will be prized by every man who admires courage, vision, fortitude, and determination in a soldier". -Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1945

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 09:17 PM
Desant_CCCP wrote:

- Here's the deal, genius. He responded to my post to
- a different person, therefore supporting whatever he
- had to say and did not presented any hard facts.
- So maybe you think before you post.

No maybe YOU think before YOU post, Einstein. You stated that he, Fehler, said that all the planes in FB are crap. He didn't say that. Maybe you just didn't make the distinction between who you were addressing but it sure appeared to be Fehler that you were talking to.

Just because he responded to your post to a different person doesn't mean he shares all the opinions of that person.

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 09:25 PM
And BTW Zugfuher never said that all the planes in FB are crap either, at least not in this thread. If anything, he's being rather self-deprecating about his virtual flying skills. And all he's saying is that if the Russian planes were as good as they appear to be in FB then the German pilots must have been pretty good to be able to combat them. That's all.

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 09:37 PM
LilHorse wrote:
-
- Desant_CCCP wrote:
-
-- Here¨^s the deal, genius. He responded to my post to
-- a different person, therefore supporting whatever he
-- had to say and did not presented any hard facts.
-- So maybe you think before you post.
-
- No maybe YOU think before YOU post, Einstein. You
- stated that he, Fehler, said that all the planes in
- FB are crap. He didn't say that. Maybe you just
- didn't make the distinction between who you were
- addressing but it sure appeared to be Fehler that
- you were talking to.
-
- Just because he responded to your post to a
- different person doesn't mean he shares all the
- opinions of that person.
-
-

My reply wasn't to Fehler, it was to the original poster.
C¯mon, don¯t make it worse than it already is.


http://www.uploadit.org/files/131003-361067-med.jpg


"One day there is certain to be another order of the Soviet Union. It will be the Order of Zhukov, and that order will be prized by every man who admires courage, vision, fortitude, and determination in a soldier". -Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1945

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 11:31 PM
Desant_CCCP wrote:
-
- Fehler wrote:
-
- Your father shoul've taught you to support you
- arguments. All you did was to say the planes in FB
- are crap.
- You dont argue with "idiots" because you simply
- cannot argue.
-

"I" never said anything was crap, didnt even imply it.

I dont mind the planes at all, I think there is room for some tweaking here and there, but overall, it's mightly playable and fun.



http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/Fehler.jpg


Message Edited on 10/28/0310:33PM by Fehler

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 12:48 AM
Reply to decent_cccp

You wrote;

"Do you have a Ph.D in physics, have you tested the planes in a tube and flown all of them, are you WWII pilot veteran? If not, then what the heck are you doing claming that Oleg's team modeled planes badly lol.
You should at least try to quate some credible source or any stats."

I should perhaps neglect such arguments but their lack of reliance makes them amusing for example a WWII pilot must be at least 80 years old.
Its not necessary to be a PH. D in physics you just have to know some logic. If you want I can write the logic formula down for you to this assumption.

If the planes in the game have correct flight model, and the kill score/sortie in VEF is true and the kill/sortie in WWII according to history also is true, if the tactics used by the virtual pilots are the same as the one that was used by real pilots, and that we have the same diffusion of good and not so good pilots on both side, the outcome would be the same in VEF as it was in reality but they arnt,


there must be some other factor that inflicts. Are the virtual pilots who fly russian planes better? Not if the bell-curve is correct. Are the tactics of the pilots the same? This could be the factor.

Conclusion; yes what do you think PH.D of something
By the way look at
http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/bc-rs/
he has many hours of statistic studies at credible source.

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 08:32 AM
decent_cccp wrote:

"One day there is certain to be another order of the Soviet Union. It will be the Order of Zhukov, and that order will be prized by every man who admires courage, vision, fortitude, and determination in a soldier". -Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1945"

Is´nt this a violation of the rule of conduct in this page?

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 10:19 AM
zugfuhrer wrote:
- Reply to decent_cccp
-
-
- If (...), if the tactics used by the virtual pilots are
- the same as the one that was used by real pilots, (...)

Sorry to interrupt your firefight gentlemen. But Zugfuhrer: this is were the chain of logic gets stuck: Virtual pilots, virtual squadrons and virtual airforces do NOT use the same tactics and doctrines of their real life counterpart. And one very important technical aspect isn't even considered in our virtual fights: Communication. The Germans early in the war had waaay better radio-comm than their Soviet counterparts. That made one hell of a difference.

cheers/slush

http://dk.groups.yahoo.com/group/aktivitetsdage/files/Eurotrolls.gif

You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 05:36 PM
zugfuhrer wrote:
- decent_cccp wrote:
-
- "One day there is certain to be another order of the
- Soviet Union. It will be the Order of Zhukov, and
- that order will be prized by every man who admires
- courage, vision, fortitude, and determination in a
- soldier". -Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1945"
-
- Is´nt this a violation of the rule of conduct in
- this page?
-
-

Maybe where you are from quating historical figures is a fellony punishable by death, but in the rest of the world it is a normal practice.

http://www.uploadit.org/files/131003-361067-med.jpg


"One day there is certain to be another order of the Soviet Union. It will be the Order of Zhukov, and that order will be prized by every man who admires courage, vision, fortitude, and determination in a soldier". -Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1945

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 09:58 AM
decent_cccp wrote

"Maybe where you are from quating historical figures is a fellony punishable by death, but in the rest of the world it is a normal practice."

What do you mean by decent_cccp, and by the statement about Zhukov?

My country havnt been to war for 200 years and we havnt exectuted anyone since 1897 and he was a serial killer.

We executed the last citizen for political crime in 1790.

We have hade free elected politicians since 1910. Our freedom of speach and the freedom of the printed word has been stated by the constitution since 1910.


How is it your country.

Can we stay to the subject fighter tactics for now on?